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The true build cost of Assault ships.

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Kcel Chim	Posted - 2004.09.01 11:45:00 - [31] Originally by: JP Beauregard Why do I keep thinking that manufacturers could price much more sensibly if they were sufficiently committed to their customers to offer BYOC deals? I know, it involves actually talking to people, but really, it's NOT THAT HARD. Thanks for the component list! Byoc sounds good, so whats the ration 2 sets for 1 ship ? Costprice about 16-17 mil total (taking the values from above). Wouldnt change much but prolly take much longer to pay back the 3-4 billion isk you invested first hand as you can only produce 2-3 assault frigs per day anyways, so all the components in the world wont change the output of your factories.
Kcel Chim	Posted - 2004.09.01 11:45:00 - [32] Originally by: JP Beauregard Why do I keep thinking that manufacturers could price much more sensibly if they were sufficiently committed to their customers to offer BYOC deals? I know, it involves actually talking to people, but really, it's NOT THAT HARD. Thanks for the component list! Byoc sounds good, so whats the ration 2 sets for 1 ship ? Costprice about 16-17 mil total (taking the values from above). Wouldnt change much but prolly take much longer to pay back the 3-4 billion isk you invested first hand as you can only produce 2-3 assault frigs per day anyways, so all the components in the world wont change the output of your factories.
Malius	Posted - 2004.09.01 11:45:00 - [33] Thanks, its nice to see the actual list to show how much the various corporations are ripping people off (I've seen these things quoted at 23 million in one of the latest posts.. nice markup). Build time is meaningless btw, because you can do other stuff to generate income while something is building.
Malius	Posted - 2004.09.01 11:45:00 - [34] Thanks, its nice to see the actual list to show how much the various corporations are ripping people off (I've seen these things quoted at 23 million in one of the latest posts.. nice markup). Build time is meaningless btw, because you can do other stuff to generate income while something is building.
Kcel Chim	Posted - 2004.09.01 11:54:00 - [35] Edited by: Kcel Chim on 01/09/2004 11:57:57 Originally by: Malius Thanks, its nice to see the actual list to show how much the various corporations are ripping people off (I've seen these things quoted at 23 million in one of the latest posts.. nice markup). Build time is meaningless btw, because you can do other stuff to generate income while something is building. Thats when ignorance hurts. Lets assume you produce 3 per day at a profit of 14 mil each and you sell all. Thats 42 mil isk a day (if you dont research the bpo, noone drops your price, you sell out all ships every day of the week for every week of the month). The result would be without any price changes in components about 1.26 billion isk a month. If the initial bpo finder sells it to you for roughly 3.6-4 billion isk it will take -3- month before you got your money back and create actual profit. Even with such high prices. If you make only 5 mil profit (1/3rd) you would roughly need -9- month with constant high sellout and stable prodcosts to make this bpo worthwhile. When talking of ship bpos the construction time is the decisive factor. The construction time limits the maximum amount of sold ships and hence the maximum amount of produced profit. If you compare it to a normal t2 item, buildtime 1h profit per item about 1.5-2 mil isk that would result in the same assumed sellout (which is for modules more likely) in a profit of 36-48 mil isk per day. Far bigger chance for profit. Especially since noone moans about a rcu II costing 3 mil or a pdu II costing 4 etc. The initial poster spoke of "doing other things while producing", you also need to sell those babies and to spend some time getting components etc. Its a simple matter of fact if the bpo prices are so high, the producers will increase the item/ship prices to get their money back. Noone produces out of charity for others and invests his money without having a chance to ever see it back.
Kcel Chim	Posted - 2004.09.01 11:54:00 - [36] Edited by: Kcel Chim on 01/09/2004 11:57:57 Originally by: Malius Thanks, its nice to see the actual list to show how much the various corporations are ripping people off (I've seen these things quoted at 23 million in one of the latest posts.. nice markup). Build time is meaningless btw, because you can do other stuff to generate income while something is building. Thats when ignorance hurts. Lets assume you produce 3 per day at a profit of 14 mil each and you sell all. Thats 42 mil isk a day (if you dont research the bpo, noone drops your price, you sell out all ships every day of the week for every week of the month). The result would be without any price changes in components about 1.26 billion isk a month. If the initial bpo finder sells it to you for roughly 3.6-4 billion isk it will take -3- month before you got your money back and create actual profit. Even with such high prices. If you make only 5 mil profit (1/3rd) you would roughly need -9- month with constant high sellout and stable prodcosts to make this bpo worthwhile. When talking of ship bpos the construction time is the decisive factor. The construction time limits the maximum amount of sold ships and hence the maximum amount of produced profit. If you compare it to a normal t2 item, buildtime 1h profit per item about 1.5-2 mil isk that would result in the same assumed sellout (which is for modules more likely) in a profit of 36-48 mil isk per day. Far bigger chance for profit. Especially since noone moans about a rcu II costing 3 mil or a pdu II costing 4 etc. The initial poster spoke of "doing other things while producing", you also need to sell those babies and to spend some time getting components etc. Its a simple matter of fact if the bpo prices are so high, the producers will increase the item/ship prices to get their money back. Noone produces out of charity for others and invests his money without having a chance to ever see it back.
Malius	Posted - 2004.09.01 11:58:00 - [37] Originally by: Kcel Chim Originally by: Malius Thanks, its nice to see the actual list to show how much the various corporations are ripping people off (I've seen these things quoted at 23 million in one of the latest posts.. nice markup). Build time is meaningless btw, because you can do other stuff to generate income while something is building. Thats when ignorance hurts. Lets assume you produce 3 per day at a profit of 14 mil each and you sell all. Thats 42 mil isk a day (if you dont research the bpo, noone drops your price, you sell out all ships every day of the week for every week of the month). The result would be without any price changes in components about 1.26 billion isk a month. If the initial bpo finder sells it to you for roughly 3.6-4 billion isk it will take -3- month before you got your money back and create actual profit. Even with such high prices. If you make only 5 mil profit (1/3rd) you would roughly need -9- month with constant high sellout and stable prodcosts to make this bpo worthwhile. When talking of ship bpos the construction time is the decisive factor. The construction time limits the maximum amount of sold ships and hence the maximum amount of produced profit. If you compare it to a normal t2 item, buildtime 1h profit per item about 1.5-2 mil isk that would result in the same assumed sellout (which is for modules more likely) in a profit of 36-48 mil isk per day. Far bigger chance for profit. Especially since noone moans about a rcu II costing 3 mil or a pdu II costing 4 etc. Ignorance is in the eye of the beholder.. who says you have to pay 3.5-4 billion for a bpo? So because you overpay just to be the one who sells it, means that you need to rip people off for it? That's faulty logic. Stop falling over yourselves to overpay for bpo's. PDU2's selling for 4 million is insane also. But that is the pains you deal with in a player run economy.
Malius	Posted - 2004.09.01 11:58:00 - [38] Originally by: Kcel Chim Originally by: Malius Thanks, its nice to see the actual list to show how much the various corporations are ripping people off (I've seen these things quoted at 23 million in one of the latest posts.. nice markup). Build time is meaningless btw, because you can do other stuff to generate income while something is building. Thats when ignorance hurts. Lets assume you produce 3 per day at a profit of 14 mil each and you sell all. Thats 42 mil isk a day (if you dont research the bpo, noone drops your price, you sell out all ships every day of the week for every week of the month). The result would be without any price changes in components about 1.26 billion isk a month. If the initial bpo finder sells it to you for roughly 3.6-4 billion isk it will take -3- month before you got your money back and create actual profit. Even with such high prices. If you make only 5 mil profit (1/3rd) you would roughly need -9- month with constant high sellout and stable prodcosts to make this bpo worthwhile. When talking of ship bpos the construction time is the decisive factor. The construction time limits the maximum amount of sold ships and hence the maximum amount of produced profit. If you compare it to a normal t2 item, buildtime 1h profit per item about 1.5-2 mil isk that would result in the same assumed sellout (which is for modules more likely) in a profit of 36-48 mil isk per day. Far bigger chance for profit. Especially since noone moans about a rcu II costing 3 mil or a pdu II costing 4 etc. Ignorance is in the eye of the beholder.. who says you have to pay 3.5-4 billion for a bpo? So because you overpay just to be the one who sells it, means that you need to rip people off for it? That's faulty logic. Stop falling over yourselves to overpay for bpo's. PDU2's selling for 4 million is insane also. But that is the pains you deal with in a player run economy.
JP Beauregard	Posted - 2004.09.01 12:14:00 - [39] Originally by: Kcel Chim Byoc sounds good, so whats the ration 2 sets for 1 ship ? Costprice about 16-17 mil total (taking the values from above). Wouldnt change much but prolly take much longer to pay back the 3-4 billion isk you invested first hand as you can only produce 2-3 assault frigs per day anyways, so all the components in the world wont change the output of your factories. This is where a manufacturer's greed begins to hurt. Quite obviously, you are more interested in pure profit than in return business. However, why should your customers pay for your willingness to shell out 4 billion for a blueprint? Pride of ownership not doing it for you, I see With 2x for 1 ship, the customer of course gets shafted. Whatever happened to the simple beauty of BYOC + ISK? And let the ISK part be commensurate with the cost of maintaining your manufacturing operation (Short on cheap factories? Ask me for directions...) and include a decent profit that reflects the customers gratitude for a fair deal. But I'm afraid the idea of the fair deal has all but gotten lost around here. JP Beauregard === The Pilkington Guides to EVE ===
JP Beauregard	Posted - 2004.09.01 12:14:00 - [40] Originally by: Kcel Chim Byoc sounds good, so whats the ration 2 sets for 1 ship ? Costprice about 16-17 mil total (taking the values from above). Wouldnt change much but prolly take much longer to pay back the 3-4 billion isk you invested first hand as you can only produce 2-3 assault frigs per day anyways, so all the components in the world wont change the output of your factories. This is where a manufacturer's greed begins to hurt. Quite obviously, you are more interested in pure profit than in return business. However, why should your customers pay for your willingness to shell out 4 billion for a blueprint? Pride of ownership not doing it for you, I see With 2x for 1 ship, the customer of course gets shafted. Whatever happened to the simple beauty of BYOC + ISK? And let the ISK part be commensurate with the cost of maintaining your manufacturing operation (Short on cheap factories? Ask me for directions...) and include a decent profit that reflects the customers gratitude for a fair deal. But I'm afraid the idea of the fair deal has all but gotten lost around here. JP Beauregard === The Pilkington Guides to EVE ===
Kcel Chim	Posted - 2004.09.01 12:14:00 - [41] i dont think any buyer wants to buy the bpo for 3 billion isk, just other competitors are also on the bidding and the person selling also has a word in the price. he still can refuse to sell..... 3-4 billion is average for covops and ass frigs, while 500-1 billion was average for interceptors. Thats nothing i like but something i have to accept, especially since there is only a limited amount of bpos given out. So if you -want- to produce them you must pay the price. Naturally if you -want- to produce them you also -want- to make profit from it.
Kcel Chim	Posted - 2004.09.01 12:14:00 - [42] i dont think any buyer wants to buy the bpo for 3 billion isk, just other competitors are also on the bidding and the person selling also has a word in the price. he still can refuse to sell..... 3-4 billion is average for covops and ass frigs, while 500-1 billion was average for interceptors. Thats nothing i like but something i have to accept, especially since there is only a limited amount of bpos given out. So if you -want- to produce them you must pay the price. Naturally if you -want- to produce them you also -want- to make profit from it.
Kcel Chim	Posted - 2004.09.01 12:19:00 - [43] and who will produce the ships for you ? The bpo finder auctions its bpo, so the price will raise and ofc the final buyer wants to get his money back, no greed in that. Understandable aswell for the guy selling it that he wants to get the best for his bpo.
Kcel Chim	Posted - 2004.09.01 12:19:00 - [44] and who will produce the ships for you ? The bpo finder auctions its bpo, so the price will raise and ofc the final buyer wants to get his money back, no greed in that. Understandable aswell for the guy selling it that he wants to get the best for his bpo.
Thomas Covenant	Posted - 2004.09.01 12:56:00 - [45] 3 Month return on investment of that magnitude? and just for you ignorance scale - people expect to pay financing cost alone on an investment of this magnitude for an extended period of time, or the assest value alone gained by that producer in 3 month would be staggering... go to business school m8 2004.08.06 09:21:49combatYour 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I perfectly strikes Guardian Elder, wrecking for 1443.0 damage.
Thomas Covenant	Posted - 2004.09.01 12:56:00 - [46] 3 Month return on investment of that magnitude? and just for you ignorance scale - people expect to pay financing cost alone on an investment of this magnitude for an extended period of time, or the assest value alone gained by that producer in 3 month would be staggering... go to business school m8 2004.08.06 09:21:49combatYour 1400mm 'Scout' Artillery I perfectly strikes Guardian Elder, wrecking for 1443.0 damage.
Anice	Posted - 2004.09.01 13:11:00 - [47] Anyone with a brain would sell their items as expensive as possible. Every corp that gets a bpo will want to make lots of profit, there's nothing wrong with that. The price of modules and ships is determined by the costumers that buy it. If a corp sells all the ships it produces for example 25mil then thats the right price, or probably even too low as he cant keep up with the demand. The high demand of the assault ships justifies their high price. "Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you" - Carl Gustav Jung
Anice	Posted - 2004.09.01 13:11:00 - [48] Anyone with a brain would sell their items as expensive as possible. Every corp that gets a bpo will want to make lots of profit, there's nothing wrong with that. The price of modules and ships is determined by the costumers that buy it. If a corp sells all the ships it produces for example 25mil then thats the right price, or probably even too low as he cant keep up with the demand. The high demand of the assault ships justifies their high price. "Show me a sane man and I will cure him for you" - Carl Gustav Jung
Kcel Chim	Posted - 2004.09.01 13:31:00 - [49] Originally by: Thomas Covenant 3 Month return on investment of that magnitude? and just for you ignorance scale - people expect to pay financing cost alone on an investment of this magnitude for an extended period of time, or the assest value alone gained by that producer in 3 month would be staggering... go to business school m8 If you had read carefully you would find out that 3 month is at full sellout and constant high prices. Both very unlikely. According to my own book only Taranis and Crow interceptors so far managed that. In the 2nd part of your reply you talk about "asset value". The asset value is most likely to drop in price. The bpo will lose value once more are dished out and once the price of the ships drop (due to more items on the market, superior ships getting out, and profitchances for the products generally dropping). To back my claims up ill give you a perfect example for that. The miner2 bpo. When it was first out you could sell miner2s for 5 mil each while they now, after like 10 month, go for 80-100k. Quiet a drop. Back in the days ppl wanted to buy the bpo for 3+ bil (considering they could make the money back easily), how much you think the asset is worth now (assuming you bought it for 3 billions back then)?
Kcel Chim	Posted - 2004.09.01 13:31:00 - [50] Originally by: Thomas Covenant 3 Month return on investment of that magnitude? and just for you ignorance scale - people expect to pay financing cost alone on an investment of this magnitude for an extended period of time, or the assest value alone gained by that producer in 3 month would be staggering... go to business school m8 If you had read carefully you would find out that 3 month is at full sellout and constant high prices. Both very unlikely. According to my own book only Taranis and Crow interceptors so far managed that. In the 2nd part of your reply you talk about "asset value". The asset value is most likely to drop in price. The bpo will lose value once more are dished out and once the price of the ships drop (due to more items on the market, superior ships getting out, and profitchances for the products generally dropping). To back my claims up ill give you a perfect example for that. The miner2 bpo. When it was first out you could sell miner2s for 5 mil each while they now, after like 10 month, go for 80-100k. Quiet a drop. Back in the days ppl wanted to buy the bpo for 3+ bil (considering they could make the money back easily), how much you think the asset is worth now (assuming you bought it for 3 billions back then)?
JP Beauregard	Posted - 2004.09.01 14:27:00 - [51] Originally by: Kcel Chim and who will produce the ships for you ? Look, it's actually very simple. If you don't give me a deal, I don't buy. That's not only one ship less you could have sold but a whole fleet because I'm never going to buy from you. Sure, everybody needs a ship but nobody needs the one you're selling. Tech II ships are a splendid luxury, but hardly a necessity. So if I wanted to burn money, I'd rather burn it on someone with business ethics, sorry So much money. No sink. And no reason to shift the balance to your wallet. One man's opinion. Nothing more.
JP Beauregard	Posted - 2004.09.01 14:27:00 - [52] Originally by: Kcel Chim and who will produce the ships for you ? Look, it's actually very simple. If you don't give me a deal, I don't buy. That's not only one ship less you could have sold but a whole fleet because I'm never going to buy from you. Sure, everybody needs a ship but nobody needs the one you're selling. Tech II ships are a splendid luxury, but hardly a necessity. So if I wanted to burn money, I'd rather burn it on someone with business ethics, sorry So much money. No sink. And no reason to shift the balance to your wallet. One man's opinion. Nothing more.
nieo	Posted - 2004.09.01 14:37:00 - [53] JP Beauregard, thanks to this thread I know where I'll be heading when I'm in need of ships or other products. You're one of very few manufacturers not wishing to rip off the customers big time for the one affair, but looking to sell more over time to the same customer. A happy customer is a customer returning when need arises. Sounds like good business to me in the long run.
nieo	Posted - 2004.09.01 14:37:00 - [54] JP Beauregard, thanks to this thread I know where I'll be heading when I'm in need of ships or other products. You're one of very few manufacturers not wishing to rip off the customers big time for the one affair, but looking to sell more over time to the same customer. A happy customer is a customer returning when need arises. Sounds like good business to me in the long run.
archangel sean	Posted - 2004.09.01 14:56:00 - [55] I wish the ppl with so much words would study some simple economics called supply and demand.
archangel sean	Posted - 2004.09.01 14:56:00 - [56] I wish the ppl with so much words would study some simple economics called supply and demand.
fras	Posted - 2004.09.01 15:02:00 - [57] why do ppl talk of recouping the cost of bpo's? the bpo is an asset that can be resold, u don't need to recoup the price. If you get a mortgage on a house, and work your whole life to pay it back, you're not back to square one when you're 80 - u own the house.
fras	Posted - 2004.09.01 15:02:00 - [58] why do ppl talk of recouping the cost of bpo's? the bpo is an asset that can be resold, u don't need to recoup the price. If you get a mortgage on a house, and work your whole life to pay it back, you're not back to square one when you're 80 - u own the house.
Parallax Error	Posted - 2004.09.01 15:07:00 - [59] Well put fras, people seem to be overlooking the fact that you would still own the BPo and thus have not lost the money you payed for it. It stays as an asset worth however many billion, unless of course you overpayed for it in the first place which makes you a rich, but stupid numpty.
Parallax Error	Posted - 2004.09.01 15:07:00 - [60] Well put fras, people seem to be overlooking the fact that you would still own the BPo and thus have not lost the money you payed for it. It stays as an asset worth however many billion, unless of course you overpayed for it in the first place which makes you a rich, but stupid numpty.

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