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FlyinS
Caldari Planetary Industry and Trade Organization
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Posted - 2009.05.01 14:26:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Sandor Krejaa
As far as I can tell this isnt even a 'carebear' thing..its simply the folks who do not want L4s in lowsec have this pathological need to fit ships for 'fly and forget' missioning. I blame on the obsession with ISK/hour earnings rates rate and the spreadsheet envy that has permeated the game.
Lets face it losing a PvP fight is lowering ISK/hour gains, fitting ships for PvP makes missions take longer, lowering ISK/hour gains
As long as those types don't see ISK/hour gains GREATER than highsec even with ship loss, they simply will not go there..and they will fight tooth, nail and claw to keep those cash cows from moving into open PvP area.
Other than several grandly incorrect assumptions here you're right on.
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Imiarr Timshae
Caldari Funny Men In Funny Hats
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Posted - 2009.05.01 15:13:00 -
[92]
No.
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Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2009.05.01 15:15:00 -
[93]
Originally by: FlyinS
Originally by: Sandor Krejaa
As far as I can tell this isnt even a 'carebear' thing..its simply the folks who do not want L4s in lowsec have this pathological need to fit ships for 'fly and forget' missioning. I blame on the obsession with ISK/hour earnings rates rate and the spreadsheet envy that has permeated the game.
Lets face it losing a PvP fight is lowering ISK/hour gains, fitting ships for PvP makes missions take longer, lowering ISK/hour gains
As long as those types don't see ISK/hour gains GREATER than highsec even with ship loss, they simply will not go there..and they will fight tooth, nail and claw to keep those cash cows from moving into open PvP area.
Other than several grandly incorrect assumptions here you're right on.
I think it's obvious, though, that if you make the isk/hour gain include the cost of ship loss, you're setting up a mechanic that can be exploited even more than current missions, as losing a ship IS avoidable in most circumstances.
The new or inexperienced players would be making what they normally are already, while the experienced players would be producing isk hand-over-fist.
Posts by Ruze Ahkor'Murkon and Ruze |
Drunk Driver
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.05.01 15:25:00 -
[94]
Feeding the troll.
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FlyinS
Caldari Planetary Industry and Trade Organization
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Posted - 2009.05.01 15:44:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
I think it's obvious, though, that if you make the isk/hour gain include the cost of ship loss, you're setting up a mechanic that can be exploited even more than current missions, as losing a ship IS avoidable in most circumstances.
The new or inexperienced players would be making what they normally are already, while the experienced players would be producing isk hand-over-fist.
Maybe it's that I haven't had my coffee yet or just that I'm plain not that clever (either is perfectly viable) but I'm just not understanding what you're saying here. Can you reword?
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Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2009.05.01 16:06:00 -
[96]
Originally by: FlyinS
Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
I think it's obvious, though, that if you make the isk/hour gain include the cost of ship loss, you're setting up a mechanic that can be exploited even more than current missions, as losing a ship IS avoidable in most circumstances.
The new or inexperienced players would be making what they normally are already, while the experienced players would be producing isk hand-over-fist.
Maybe it's that I haven't had my coffee yet or just that I'm plain not that clever (either is perfectly viable) but I'm just not understanding what you're saying here. Can you reword?
If you make it so that the idiots gain money despite how many ships they lose, the players who are actually skilled at avoiding getting their ship destroyed will make a whole lot more money.
Posts by Ruze Ahkor'Murkon and Ruze |
Poreuomai
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.05.01 16:20:00 -
[97]
Quote: should lvl4 missions only be available in low sec?
No, most mission runners would just farm L3s instead.
Next!
Let My People Go |
FlyinS
Caldari Planetary Industry and Trade Organization
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Posted - 2009.05.01 17:05:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
If you make it so that the idiots gain money despite how many ships they lose, the players who are actually skilled at avoiding getting their ship destroyed will make a whole lot more money.
Thanks.
Do you really think it's currently at a point where people that are often losing ships in L4 missions are still making money? Hard to imagine that being that unless you're squeezing every drop of isk you can out of every minute you can, you're not going to be making enough to cover 50-100 million per ship (before fittings) for the "typical" L4 mission ship (yeah yeah I know 10 people will come in here and tell me their 5K T1 frigate can run them in .4 seconds blah blah). Granted that isn't making any assumptions on how fast said idiot is losing those ships.
I think it's safe to say that anyone dumb enough to lose a ship to a L4 mission even every 5 missions isn't maximizing isk/hour, isn't using a second account to maximize salvaging/looting, and therefore isn't breaking the bank.
What all that rambling is pointing towards (and holy crap someone please shut me the F up here ok?) is that I don't think the rewards are out of whack so much that someone that isn't getting their ship destroyed is going to be making loads and loads of isk. And heck even experienced mission runners make mistakes sometimes. Let me tell you about a time I was in EA 5 and accidently fell asleep at the wheel in my CNR....
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Devine13
Nomad LLP
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Posted - 2009.05.01 17:22:00 -
[99]
NO
that is all.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.05.01 17:30:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Drunk Driver
Feeding the troll.
Look who's talking about "trolls"...
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Noemi Nagano
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Posted - 2009.05.01 20:54:00 -
[101]
I dont think l4s should be moved to lowsec, I would just make them more difficult, so you should either be very good (SP & skills how to fly) or need a team. A little bit like some l5s may be now, but then again, I dont like the mostly Empire-faction enemies in l5. But maybe thats just me.
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Cerebus Alteri
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Posted - 2009.05.01 21:40:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Cerebus Alteri on 01/05/2009 21:40:38
Originally by: Noemi Nagano I dont think l4s should be moved to lowsec, I would just make them more difficult, so you should either be very good (SP & skills how to fly) or need a team. A little bit like some l5s may be now, but then again, I dont like the mostly Empire-faction enemies in l5. But maybe thats just me.
well some are kinda hard, the blockade and a few others, but yea most are more or less a cake walk, but then again the lower tier missions pay about 1 ish mil isk base with about 1800 lp no skills or anything. the higher ones 2 mil ish with 3k lp, its the bounties and or salvage/loot that makes them really profitable.
the blockade and worlds collide are two of the best and vengence i think is the other that with just bounties and mission payout equals out to 25 mil or so if you clear the entire thing. and each takes like an hour to just kill nevermind salvage.
the block maybe the hardest from a solo stand point with that 2 wave dampening in a marauder you cant target anything past 10k and them dampening hacs have damn high resists for your drones to try and chew through. i know it is always a test of my tank and cap to tank that 2nd wave, unable to do much but hope the drones pick up the right targets on their own. but then again i just warp in and sit where i warp in at to make it easier to salvage.
tho your much more likely to get those missions in a blue moon, as opposed to the 10 15 mil with the 2k or so lp. less your tunring down a ton of missions to just run the good ones.
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.01 22:14:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Poreuomai
Quote: should lvl4 missions only be available in low sec?
No, most mission runners would just farm L3s instead.
Next!
That would be fine as the profits in high sec would drop. And yea this is my sig. Real PVP'ers only use f1. |
nails
Caldari Ota Corps
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Posted - 2009.05.01 22:25:00 -
[104]
Edited by: nails on 01/05/2009 22:26:07 Moving lvl 4 missions to low sec is meaningless. If you want to do it right, you will make all space 0.0. Simple as that, don't go part of the way if you arn't willing to go all the way. 1/2 of the game's population or more will probably quit, but that's fine by me. At least pirates and alliances will get what they want, and that's all that matters right? --------------
http://nails.otaku.jp/ota-corps/ |
Synnyr
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Posted - 2009.05.02 00:33:00 -
[105]
Interesting how people who are in favor of this want it that simply because the current setup doesn't suit THEIR style of play.
Screw everyone else. Anyone who doesn't do it my way is a 'noob' or a 'carebear'.
The selfishness of the current generation truly knows no bounds.
In any case, no one commented on my proposal. Let's move Level 4 missions to Lowsec and make anyone with -0.1 or below standing global in .5 space or higher. Seems like a fair trade.
These uber pirates shouldn't care if they're hot as soon as they hit highsec. Right? I mean...only a noob would worry about that.
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Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2009.05.02 00:37:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Synnyr Interesting how people who are in favor of this want it that simply because the current setup doesn't suit THEIR style of play.
Screw everyone else. Anyone who doesn't do it my way is a 'noob' or a 'carebear'.
The selfishness of the current generation truly knows no bounds.
In any case, no one commented on my proposal. Let's move Level 4 missions to Lowsec and make anyone with -0.1 or below standing global in .5 space or higher. Seems like a fair trade.
These uber pirates shouldn't care if they're hot as soon as they hit highsec. Right? I mean...only a noob would worry about that.
Isn't that kinda the mentality of those defending missions, though? "Screw everyone else, I have the game as I want it and will fight to keep it that way? Anyone who doesn't like my uber money maker is either a pirate or a griefer." I mean, as long as we're making broad, sweeping condemnations about the agenda of some couple dozen of forum posters, might as well get them all, right?
You are correct about one thing, though. Selfishness truly knows no bounds.
Posts by Ruze Ahkor'Murkon and Ruze |
Rystan Wildstar
Caldari Maximum Salvage Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.02 01:19:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Originally by: Synnyr Interesting how people who are in favor of this want it that simply because the current setup doesn't suit THEIR style of play.
Screw everyone else. Anyone who doesn't do it my way is a 'noob' or a 'carebear'.
The selfishness of the current generation truly knows no bounds.
In any case, no one commented on my proposal. Let's move Level 4 missions to Lowsec and make anyone with -0.1 or below standing global in .5 space or higher. Seems like a fair trade.
These uber pirates shouldn't care if they're hot as soon as they hit highsec. Right? I mean...only a noob would worry about that.
Isn't that kinda the mentality of those defending missions, though? "Screw everyone else, I have the game as I want it and will fight to keep it that way? Anyone who doesn't like my uber money maker is either a pirate or a griefer." I mean, as long as we're making broad, sweeping condemnations about the agenda of some couple dozen of forum posters, might as well get them all, right?
You are correct about one thing, though. Selfishness truly knows no bounds.
The obvious fatal flaw in your logic is that mission runners doing their thing is not keeping you from playing EVE the way you want to. You however seem to want to dictate how others play the game. Why are you so concerned with how others play? Is it because your very existence in EVE is mostly irrelevant to Empire dwellers and that fact bothers you? I sure as hell don't care what you do in game as it has zero effect on me. Sorry you might not like that but it's a cold hard fact you have no choice but to accept.
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Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2009.05.02 01:36:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Rystan Wildstar
Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Originally by: Synnyr Interesting how people who are in favor of this want it that simply because the current setup doesn't suit THEIR style of play.
Screw everyone else. Anyone who doesn't do it my way is a 'noob' or a 'carebear'.
The selfishness of the current generation truly knows no bounds.
In any case, no one commented on my proposal. Let's move Level 4 missions to Lowsec and make anyone with -0.1 or below standing global in .5 space or higher. Seems like a fair trade.
These uber pirates shouldn't care if they're hot as soon as they hit highsec. Right? I mean...only a noob would worry about that.
Isn't that kinda the mentality of those defending missions, though? "Screw everyone else, I have the game as I want it and will fight to keep it that way? Anyone who doesn't like my uber money maker is either a pirate or a griefer." I mean, as long as we're making broad, sweeping condemnations about the agenda of some couple dozen of forum posters, might as well get them all, right?
You are correct about one thing, though. Selfishness truly knows no bounds.
The obvious fatal flaw in your logic is that mission runners doing their thing is not keeping you from playing EVE the way you want to. You however seem to want to dictate how others play the game. Why are you so concerned with how others play? Is it because your very existence in EVE is mostly irrelevant to Empire dwellers and that fact bothers you? I sure as hell don't care what you do in game as it has zero effect on me. Sorry you might not like that but it's a cold hard fact you have no choice but to accept.
Considering I'm an empire dweller and primarily a mission runner, part of your argument is null and void. But the other part, about how MY suggestions affect my own game and the game of others ... that is completely true.
The difference, though, between me and you, is I recognize quite willingly that everything I do ... from every post I make to every action I take in game ... affects my fellow gamers. Since I made this character and bought my first ship, it has. Every day that I run missions and use that LP for great items and sell my salvage for cheap rigs and dispose of all that loot to all those needy reprocessor, I know that some player out there is benefiting, or suffering, from my actions.
It's not the isk I make that causes problems, it's when I buy things off the market that does. It's not the work I do that causes issues, it's my ulterior actions throughout.
You cannot exist innocently in EvE. Every player is ****ing over somebody. Whether it's me ****ing over you by suggesting changes on the forums, or you ****ing over me by selling your salvage to bidders who, if they didn't have you, would by mine at a higher rate.
I recognize and am responsible for my impact on other gamers. If I'm stolen from or attacked, if I find myself the victim of a war dec or raid ... I don't complain about it. It's a part of life. Sometimes you shoot your enemy, sometimes you just kill them more slowly through the market.
Who are YOU hurting when you play? I know who I am.
Posts by Ruze Ahkor'Murkon and Ruze |
Poreuomai
Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.05.04 21:57:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Poreuomai
Quote: should lvl4 missions only be available in low sec?
No, most mission runners would just farm L3s instead.
That would be fine as the profits in high sec would drop.
The main objection to mission running seems to be the lack of risk-vs-reward and the lack of player-player-competition.
Let My People Go |
Armoured C
Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.05.04 22:03:00 -
[110]
there is a intresting thread goin on in the MD forum about missions there rewards need to be adjusted in line with that there is a massive amount of minerals comming from mission, i believe that there lewt/salvage and bounties need to be balanced to keep the economy and mining industry stronger.
twitter blog
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express Burning Horizons
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Posted - 2009.05.04 22:21:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Hopey
Originally by: Deathhawk just a question id like to see some responses :)
more targets for pirates and other people, would make people work together more an get them out of noob corps? well maybe i dont know :P
/me steps into flame suit
people just wouldn't run them, like they don't run L5's.
if you move them to low-sec, people will just farm L3's instead.
This.
No, Level 4s should not be moved to low sec.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.05.04 22:23:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Mecinia Lua
Originally by: Hopey
Originally by: Deathhawk just a question id like to see some responses :)
more targets for pirates and other people, would make people work together more an get them out of noob corps? well maybe i dont know :P
/me steps into flame suit
people just wouldn't run them, like they don't run L5's.
if you move them to low-sec, people will just farm L3's instead.
This.
No, Level 4s should not be moved to low sec.
Indeed. They should be moved to the dustbin and the missioning system redone from scratch.
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Benzaiten Reverse
Caldari Shokei
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Posted - 2009.05.04 22:23:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Hopey
Originally by: Deathhawk just a question id like to see some responses :)
more targets for pirates and other people, would make people work together more an get them out of noob corps? well maybe i dont know :P
/me steps into flame suit
people just wouldn't run them, like they don't run L5's.
if you move them to low-sec, people will just farm L3's instead.
More like to stop doing missions at all or even quit eve.
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express Burning Horizons
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Posted - 2009.05.04 22:26:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Armoured C there is a intresting thread goin on in the MD forum about missions there rewards need to be adjusted in line with that there is a massive amount of minerals comming from mission, i believe that there lewt/salvage and bounties need to be balanced to keep the economy and mining industry stronger.
The minerals are needed, keep in mind Tritanium still costs twice what it did 2 years ago. If you nerf the mission items which are recycled for minerals in many cases, then the price of minerals and goods will just increase.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal |
TraininVain
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Posted - 2009.05.04 22:29:00 -
[115]
Edited by: TraininVain on 04/05/2009 22:34:13
Originally by: Jobby No, I don't want to have to concentrate when I mission
This tbh.
Missions are dull and require what often amount to lolfits in PVP terms.
FW should demonstrate as well as anything that trying to mix up the PVP and PVE content is a terrible idea.
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express Burning Horizons
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Posted - 2009.05.04 22:30:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Mecinia Lua
Originally by: Hopey
Originally by: Deathhawk just a question id like to see some responses :)
more targets for pirates and other people, would make people work together more an get them out of noob corps? well maybe i dont know :P
/me steps into flame suit
people just wouldn't run them, like they don't run L5's.
if you move them to low-sec, people will just farm L3's instead.
This.
No, Level 4s should not be moved to low sec.
Indeed. They should be moved to the dustbin and the missioning system redone from scratch.
No it shouldn't be.
There is nothing wrong with the current mission system.
Let me ask you a question for those wishing to prey on low sec mission runners/miners, if you aren't finding enough targets, why aren't you just raiding out into 0.0? More than half the systems in the game are low sec or 0.0 and thus ample opportunity exists for those wishing to engage in pvp even if you might have to look for it. Not to mention that the average pvp ship drops better loot than the avg pve ship though of course they tend to be harder to kill.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Mitnal |
Dirk Magnum
Royal Hiigaran Navy SCUM.
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Posted - 2009.05.04 22:36:00 -
[117]
I don't care about level 4's anymore. I would like to see missions redone, but if they aren't, then the only thing still bothering me is the fact that NPC-corp players can run them.
As you may know, I support a slash and burn and salt the earth nerfing of non-FW NPC corps for anyone who's been subscribed more than a couple months.
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Benzaiten Reverse
Caldari Shokei
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Posted - 2009.05.04 22:45:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Originally by: FlyinS
Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
I think it's obvious, though, that if you make the isk/hour gain include the cost of ship loss, you're setting up a mechanic that can be exploited even more than current missions, as losing a ship IS avoidable in most circumstances.
The new or inexperienced players would be making what they normally are already, while the experienced players would be producing isk hand-over-fist.
Maybe it's that I haven't had my coffee yet or just that I'm plain not that clever (either is perfectly viable) but I'm just not understanding what you're saying here. Can you reword?
If you make it so that the idiots gain money despite how many ships they lose, the players who are actually skilled at avoiding getting their ship destroyed will make a whole lot more money.
I didnt loose ship in PVE for very long time, and i still cannot say i am rich, quite oposite. There are missions where your ship is safe as long as you know what are you doing, but take some new guildies with you that dont listen and even my permaSB CNR get under 30% shields quite fast. You can make tops 15 mil per L4 (WC) in kills and 500k-15m in loots (tho most likely i get 2-5m in loots in good mission), thats average 10-15 mil a hour for very good mission and much less if you are unlucky (sometime even 16h cant play because i got 4 missions in row i dont like ?)and i dont think its something extra, can make 200-400 mil a day just logging for 10 min and building/selling stuff.
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Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Amarr No Applicable Corporation
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Posted - 2009.05.04 22:50:00 -
[119]
Edited by: Ruze Ahkor''Murkon on 04/05/2009 22:51:23
Originally by: Benzaiten Reverse
Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Originally by: FlyinS
Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
I think it's obvious, though, that if you make the isk/hour gain include the cost of ship loss, you're setting up a mechanic that can be exploited even more than current missions, as losing a ship IS avoidable in most circumstances.
The new or inexperienced players would be making what they normally are already, while the experienced players would be producing isk hand-over-fist.
Maybe it's that I haven't had my coffee yet or just that I'm plain not that clever (either is perfectly viable) but I'm just not understanding what you're saying here. Can you reword?
If you make it so that the idiots gain money despite how many ships they lose, the players who are actually skilled at avoiding getting their ship destroyed will make a whole lot more money.
I didnt loose ship in PVE for very long time, and i still cannot say i am rich, quite oposite. There are missions where your ship is safe as long as you know what are you doing, but take some new guildies with you that dont listen and even my permaSB CNR get under 30% shields quite fast. You can make tops 15 mil per L4 (WC) in kills and 500k-15m in loots (tho most likely i get 2-5m in loots in good mission), thats average 10-15 mil a hour for very good mission and much less if you are unlucky (sometime even 16h cant play because i got 4 missions in row i dont like ?)and i dont think its something extra, can make 200-400 mil a day just logging for 10 min and building/selling stuff.
Remember salvage and LP in your figures.
And let's not forget that you have everything that deals with industry is related to player competition in some way or another. Whether it's the limited supply of ME and research slots, the limitation on gaining minerals, or the simplest form of competition, the limit on who sells to what customers for how much. While that 200-400mil is a nice figure, it's still limited to the number of competitors you have and various other versions of supply. Your profession can only handle so many players.
Posts by Ruze Ahkor'Murkon and Ruze |
Jer Bu
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Posted - 2009.05.05 00:24:00 -
[120]
Quote: As you may know, I support a slash and burn and salt the earth nerfing of non-FW NPC corps for anyone who's been subscribed more than a couple months.
Because you can;t war-dec them, and you want more high-sec targets (who dont want to PvP) instead of going into null sec...
Same gad-dam arguements everytime. Accept that some people don't want to play the way you want to play. That goes for Care-Bears, so called pirates alike.
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