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Gath Nihilus
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Posted - 2009.04.30 19:37:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Gath Nihilus on 30/04/2009 19:38:27 Gday. I have a question about EHP. If I do up a 150k ehp buffer armor phoon for example then I have whatever the shield is plus 35k armor for example. If I'm being shot at my shield will be gone in no time at all and then they have to chew through 35k armor. There is no regen on armor and since shield will always be at 0% none from shields either. Comparing this to a 150k EHP shield buffer bs for example with 35k Shields there is some significant passive regen occuring on the shields as well. Lets call it 400 passive regen for argument sake.
Isn't the shield EHP inaccurate then seeing as up until ur passive shield regen breaks and you're out of shields a significant amount of shield is regenerated passively meaning you end up with a good chunk more than the 150k EHP originally given?
A 200 dps af will eventually kill a 150k ehp armor bs but will never kill a 400 passive regen shield buffer bs and could end up doing a 750kdmg over the course of an hour and still not kill it.
Is there any known formula or similar where you can take the 150k ehp that eft gives u on a passive shield buffer and then plug in 400 passive regen for example and see by how much that extends your ehp by?
Any ideas are welcome.
Edit: dyslexic ftl
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Xapharia
WOLIMAZO INC
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Posted - 2009.04.30 19:50:00 -
[2]
The reason we operate by EHP the way we do is because it tells you how much damage you can instantly take i.e. how much damage they would need to put out instantly to pop you, thereby passing the passive regen completely.
I don't know if there's any formulas for what you're looking for though. I don't bother with loads of formulas myself either, either it works or it doesn't  _________________________
Originally by: CCP Whisper Boo hoo. Cry some more.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.04.30 19:55:00 -
[3]
The problem is HP regen is not constant so there is no practical way to factor it into EHP and get anything but a wildly inaccurate number. For example fight
A you might take 150k damage before you die. Fight B you take 170k damage before you die. Fight C you take 300k damage before you die.. Fight D you take 150k like fight A but last time as long. There are just too many variables and the variables are changing all the time.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Commander Vic
Minmatar Ioncross
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Posted - 2009.04.30 21:22:00 -
[4]
Also, keep in mind that with a shield buffer the regen is pathetic. Yes, it's there but it's not enough to overcome your damage example of a 150 DPS AF. In most cases you'll be talking about < 100 shield HP regen at peak, significantly less for ships smaller than a Battleship.
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2009.05.01 00:12:00 -
[5]
400 is a high tank for someone buffering oO
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Vyllana
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Posted - 2009.05.01 01:07:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Vyllana on 01/05/2009 01:07:42 A shield tanked ship fit for EHP will have quite a low regen, as they won't be fitting regen mods but +shield hp mods. The regen will give them extra effective hp throughout the course of the fight. However, keep in mind that this is likely more than counterbalanced by the fact that it's much easier to get more EHP with an armor tanked ship than a shield tanked ship, since 1600mm plates add a lot more hp (4200) than large shield extenders (2625). For example, try fitting up an armor tanked battleship like the Abaddon for EHP and compare it with a shield tanker like the Rokh and you'll see that the Abaddon comes out with significantly more EHP.
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Gath Nihilus
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Posted - 2009.05.01 05:09:00 -
[7]
Eh passive regen isn't really pathetic.....
[Raven, New Setup 1] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Damage Control II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Photon Scattering Field II
Siege Missile Launcher II, Juggernaut Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Juggernaut Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Juggernaut Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Juggernaut Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Juggernaut Rage Torpedo Siege Missile Launcher II, Juggernaut Rage Torpedo [empty high slot] [empty high slot]
Core Defence Field Purger I Core Defence Field Extender I Core Defence Field Extender I
Hammerhead II x5 Hammerhead II x2
800 dps 127.5k EHP 461 passive regen
AF isn't going to kill this...
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MalVortex
Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2009.05.01 07:03:00 -
[8]
Your question doesn't work because you don't understand the relationship between EHP, effective-regen, and time-to-death. As incoming real dps approaches your real tank amount, your time-to-death will dramatically increase. As gank exceeds your tank, it becomes increasingly meaningless, such that your EHP is the only thing buying any form of time before your death.
If a target has 1,000 EHP and a 100EHP/s tank (across the entirety of those EHP), then it will tank 1,000 seconds to die to to 101 incoming dps. If I do even 102 dps, the time to death of that target drops to 500 seconds - a one point difference in this example halved your time to live.
A fitting calculator cannot convert your tank into extra EHP because your time-to-death (and therefore, amount of extra HP added from the regen-tank) is entirely dependent on the amount of incoming DPS. Real DPS itself is annoying to calculate, and will vary across the duration of the fight - even with just simple design parameters. For this reason, tank is never ever considered an addition to your EHP.
The nightmare only gets worse with passive-regen tanks like shields. These tanks have a non-uniform shield regen, such that your tanking ~2.3 times more EHP/s at ~30% shields than you are at 100% shields. This compression factor of shields would be inordinately difficult to simulate accurately over the duration of a fight, esp. as it will depend on real dps, which as was already covered, is difficult enough to simulate as it is.
For most ships, EHP is the name of the game in PVP - local tanks are usually easily outstripped in effectiveness even in a 1v1 engagement. Those ships that can regen tank are fairly obvious candidates - but even they must realize that if their tank is significantly exceeded, the tradeoff of EHP for EHP/s will make theirs a swift death indeed compared to their buffer tanked brethren.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.01 07:54:00 -
[9]
Originally by: MalVortex [...]The nightmare only gets worse with passive-regen tanks like shields. These tanks have a non-uniform shield regen, such that your tanking ~2.3 times more EHP/s at ~30% shields than you are at 100% shields.[...]
Minor nitpick : it's almost 2.5 times more at ~30% than the average regen (i.e. from zero to full shield). At nearly 100% shields, the regen is many times lower than the average regen.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |

MalVortex
Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2009.05.01 08:07:00 -
[10]
Hm, is 2.5x the accepted multiplier now? Ah well, close enough for forum warrioring :)
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.01 08:09:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Akita T on 01/05/2009 08:11:21
x2.5 is the peak multiplier, and it always was x2.5 The fact (some) people prefer to use x2.4, x2.3, x2.2 or even x2.0 "just in case / to be safe from weird alphas" is another matter altogether.
P.S. It's even been recently made official, since the new fiting window. If you check the "tank rating" on passively shield-tanked ships you'll notice it's exactly x2.5 the average.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |

Vyllana
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Posted - 2009.05.01 08:12:00 -
[12]
You can actually calculate, for a given incoming dps, what your effective HP would be with a given regen rate, by integrating the regen function over time. So it is a solvable problem, though a bit math heavy for the typical back of the envelope EVE estimate.
However, if you assume that the incoming dps is significantly greater than the regen dps, then a first order approximation would be pretty accurate. That approximation being just taking the average regen rate and applying that uniformly across time. Then, with a few lines of algebra you get:
total sEHP = sEHP*(1 + r/(d-r))
where sEHP is the shield EHP, d is the rate of incoming dps, and r is the regen rate. For example, if the listed shield EHP is 100,000, the incoming dps is 1000, and the regen rate is 200, then:
total sEHP = 100000*(1 + 200/(1000-200)) = 125,000
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2009.05.01 17:11:00 -
[13]
yllana said " That approximation being just taking the average regen rate and applying that uniformly across time. Then, with a few lines of algebra you get:" But average regen rates change drastically battle to battle. There is no way to work out your aprox average regen for an upcoming battle.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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