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Wardec mechanics pt2!

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Fille Balle TachyonTubbies Dark Taboo	Posted - 2009.05.03 10:25:00 - [1] Issue: At the moment the corp that is declaring war simply clicks a button, and whohoo! I can pvp in highsec! With no player interaction required. The victim has options available, but none of them equals: click a button and, whohoo! I don't have to pvp in highsec! Hiring help currenlty requires human interaction: This leaves you open to scams, there is no denying this. Remaining docked in a station for a week also means that the attcker has just made use of a "click to grief" function. Moving all your members to a new corp is questionable at the very best, and could be considered an exlpoit. Surrendering does not mean you are guaranteed the war will stop, you can easily be scammed here as well. Possible solutions: 1. Players control the board of concord: How does it work: Make players decide the cost and if a war is justified. How? Players that have a sec rating above 5.0 can voluntarily join the concord board, and will be responsible for allowing/disallowing a corporate war. Every time you want to declare war, a random board member that is currently logged will be selected. They can decide that there is no valid reason for the war and deny the corp the war, they can be bribed (or just take the isk and run), they can even simply say, ok go for it. Free war for you! The members of the board will also determine the the price of declaring the war. To help balance this a bit, corps can file a new kind of petition: board of concord petition! These will go directtly to the board members attention. They will need to explain why they think their war is just and should be accepted. After this the board will vote as to whether they think the member in question should be expelled from the board. Votes will be determined on a majority basis, and will last one week in total. Corps having war declared on them will also have the right to petition if a war is deemed just. Benefits: -Divides the scam risk between both parties involved in a possible war -Newer corps with young members will have a better chance of surviving -Wars will happen less without a reason -Joining the board requires some effort -Wars can be cancelled/enabled on the spot Downsides: -Can be exploited with some effort -Less wars 2. Hire npc's to help out: How does it work: Players can now request the assistance of any of the four navies (not concord) for protection. This will cost the same as declaring the war, and the fee needs to be payed per navy. This means that the cost will be high if you want protection all over empire, and they still won't help you out in lowsec. This option is only available to the corp that has the war declared on them, not the corp declaring war. Once the fee is payed, the navy/navies will attack the agressors on sight. The agressors will have the right to defend themselfs without concord intervention. This only lasts until the war is over. Benefits: -Both corps now have a "click to grief" option -Newer corps who don't know any estblished mercenary connections now have an option available -More isk sink, will also mean that not only the corp declaring war is using an isk sink Downsides: -Easy to exploit for other gains -NPC's aren't very powerful -To some extent, might force attacker to fit mission setups
Fille Balle TachyonTubbies Dark Taboo	Posted - 2009.05.03 10:25:00 - [2] 3. Add a stop the war function: How does it work: You can now stop wars with the same security that starting a war offers. Just like there is a function to declare war, there is now also a function that says "stop war". Costs the same as declaring the war, and if the defender decides to do so, it will prevent the attacker from attempting the same wardeclaration before one week has passed. To offset the possibility of dodging wars with little cost, corps can now decide how much "bribe" they want to offer concord. If you are willing to pay 100mil isk for a war, that is how much it's going to cost for your opponent to invalidate the war. If your not willing to pay that much, you are making it that much easier for the defender to invalidate the war. Benefits: -Both parties now have virtually the same options available at the same cost -Could potantially lead to some massive isk sinks -Requires some tactfulness from both parties Downsides: -Older corps can make it almost impossible for newer corps to invalidate a war -Might lead to less wars These are my ideas so far. If you would like to comment on one/some of them, feel free to do so. If you have other ideas also feel free to posts them. If you want to post: "there is nothing wrong with the current mechanics" gtfo! I've already explained what's wrong with the current mechanics, so if you think you have a better idea, or you have some magical agruement as to why there is nothing wrong with the current wardec system, feel free to post that instead.
Fille Balle TachyonTubbies Dark Taboo	Posted - 2009.05.03 10:26:00 - [3] Reserved
Kuranta Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.05.03 11:04:00 - [4] We'll, firts, EVE is a PVP game. It is therefore logical that it takes a simple button klick to start PvP, but it's not that easy to get out of it. Just the way it should be in a PvP game. 1) If a reason is valid or not should only be determined by the player(s) delcaring the war. If I feel like declaring a war because you are a jerk (in my opinion), I should well damn be allowed to do so. It would be a matter of "luck" if a wardec goes through and that is a bad thing on such a critical thing like wardecs. There have to be straight, rules. Why should corp a be allowed to have a wardec on corp B for some reason and corp C is denied a wardec for the same reason? 2) It's a mmo. Never let NPCs do what players can (and do) provide. Many reputable mercenaries offering their service at reasonable prices. 3) larger carebear corps (minig, trade, production) have more ISK tha a PvP corp. those corps would be more or less imune to wars. If you can't defend your corp, go join a corp that can. Or find other corps in your system to provide mutual help. The possibilities are there.
Miraqu Caldari	Posted - 2009.05.03 11:34:00 - [5] I partially agree. But instead of the need to validate a war, there should be a "war council", consisting of about 5 players which are appointed by the csm. This council could be petitioned to invalidate your war with a 4/5 majority after at least two weeks. But in the Baseline: Giving the decced Corp at least some options to help with the defense would really be nice. But on the other Hand it should not be possible to get almost immune to wardecs. Our corp is constantly wardecced and i would love to see an option to extend the 25h limit to 50h or at least increase the cost of the war substantially.
Fille Balle TachyonTubbies Dark Taboo	Posted - 2009.05.03 11:37:00 - [6] Originally by: Kuranta We'll, firts, EVE is a PVP game. It is therefore logical that it takes a simple button klick to start PvP, but it's not that easy to get out of it. Just the way it should be in a PvP game. 1) If a reason is valid or not should only be determined by the player(s) delcaring the war. If I feel like declaring a war because you are a jerk (in my opinion), I should well damn be allowed to do so. It would be a matter of "luck" if a wardec goes through and that is a bad thing on such a critical thing like wardecs. There have to be straight, rules. Why should corp a be allowed to have a wardec on corp B for some reason and corp C is denied a wardec for the same reason? Players decide, human ineraction is required. How is this luck? You need try and convince a person to allow to you to declare a war. Sounds like pvp to me. Maybe not pew pew, but most certainly pvp. And if you should be allowed to have a click to pvp button, why should not others be allowed the opposite? Originally by: Kuranta 2) It's a mmo. Never let NPCs do what players can (and do) provide. Many reputable mercenaries offering their service at reasonable prices. Yes, meaning that said mercenaries can run of with the isk without offering you any protection. Declaring war currently does not have this risk associated with it. Any better suggestions for changing this to make it more equal? Hiring mercenaries currently costs 50mil upwards. Should we raise the costs for declaring war to the same to make it more balanced? Originally by: Kuranta 3) larger carebear corps (minig, trade, production) have more ISK tha a PvP corp. those corps would be more or less imune to wars. That's open to enterpetation. Not all carebear corps are rich, and just because some of the players are rich doesn't mean they want to donate this isk to the corp. If you don't have to isk for a war, you shouldn't be declaring war in the first place. If you save up enough isk, you could make it virtually impossible for some corps to invalidate the war. So this goes both ways, thus making it more equal. If you still want to pvp but don't want to save up the isk, there are places where wardecs aren't needed. Besides, if you still insist on staying in empire and want to pvp without needing to save up loads of isk, then declare war corps who want to pvp as well. I'm sure they wont spend isk on invalidating your war. Originally by: Kuranta If you can't defend your corp, go join a corp that can. Or find other corps in your system to provide mutual help. The possibilities are there. If you had actually bothered to read my post, you would know that I'm fully aware of this. The issue wasn't that there's is no option for doing that, but the fact that the attcker does not need to interact with humans in order to declare war, where as getting protection does require human interaction.
Fille Balle TachyonTubbies Dark Taboo	Posted - 2009.05.03 14:48:00 - [7] Originally by: Miraqu But in the Baseline: Giving the decced Corp at least some options to help with the defense would really be nice. That's what this is all about. The suggestions above are exactly that: suggestions. It's more about getting a conversation going about how to improve the mechanic. I'll add more suggestions as they're suggested, or when I come up with some more. Either way, thanks for the input
thoraxius demioses Gallente Privateers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.03 16:13:00 - [8] no thanks... but i wouldn't mind wardecs to be cheaper tho :D
Traidor Disloyal Minmatar Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.05.03 17:44:00 - [9] Originally by: Miraqu But instead of the need to validate a war, there should be a "war council", consisting of about 5 players which are appointed by the csm. This council could be petitioned to invalidate your war with a 4/5 majority after at least two weeks. No. I do not need some other Eve players who don't know me from Adam deciding whether or not I have the right to keep some corp war decced. And I can just see it now. Unless those players belong to some big bad alliance they just might get war decced after they ** off a few corporations by denying their war decs. *********************************************** I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it.
Caldari 5 Amarr The Element Syndicate Black Mesa Project	Posted - 2009.05.03 17:54:00 - [10] Ultimate idea to stop Griefing wardecs, just require one of either the Decing Corp or the decced corp to have Sov. Honestly I haven't seen a Legit HighSec only WarDec Yet.
Traidor Disloyal Minmatar Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.05.04 17:04:00 - [11] Originally by: Caldari 5 Ultimate idea to stop Griefing wardecs, just require one of either the Decing Corp or the decced corp to have Sov. Honestly I haven't seen a Legit HighSec only WarDec Yet. So if you had your way I would not be able to war dec some numbnuts because he does something to me I don't like in High Sec. Are you going to tell all those Merc corps that they can't make a living because they don't have sov? I take it you did not think your idea through for others who are not in your Sov Shoes? There are ways to settle disputes in low sec and null sec and its called "blasting the crap out of people who make you mad without Concord sticking its nose in". There is nothing like that in High Sec. There needs to be a way to knock the crap out of people who irritate you in high sec and right now it is the War Dec system. This idea of bringing Sov crap into it is just that, crap. If you all can not handle the weak wars in High Sec then maybe you all need to go where The Real Men/Women are who can protect you from the bottom feeders of High Sec. And if you are already a part of a 0.0 Alliance then why are you in High Sec? ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it.
Caldari 5 Amarr The Element Syndicate Black Mesa Project	Posted - 2009.05.04 19:35:00 - [12] Originally by: Traidor Disloyal So if you had your way I would not be able to war dec some numbnuts because he does something to me I don't like in High Sec. WarDecing over a Griefing? Seriously there is nothing that anyone can do to you in HS that you can't do to them. So either put up with it, do it back to them or move to another part of HS. Originally by: Traidor Disloyal Are you going to tell all those Merc corps that they can't make a living because they don't have sov? If they are WarDecing someone with Sov they can still make a living. Originally by: Traidor Disloyal I take it you did not think your idea through for others who are not in your Sov Shoes? I did think it through, there are way to many Griefing wars in HS, either that or they are over something idiotically stupid. eg: Recent war that our alliance was in, was over the CEO the previous executor corp leaving a shuttle outside a POS. Just as a note, our alliance currently doesn't have SOV so I'm not speaking from SOV Shoes. Originally by: Traidor Disloyal There are ways to settle disputes in low sec and null sec and its called "blasting the crap out of people who make you mad without Concord sticking its nose in". There is nothing like that in High Sec. There needs to be a way to knock the crap out of people who irritate you in high sec and right now it is the War Dec system. This idea of bringing Sov crap into it is just that, crap. If you all can not handle the weak wars in High Sec then maybe you all need to go where The Real Men/Women are who can protect you from the bottom feeders of High Sec. And if you are already a part of a 0.0 Alliance then why are you in High Sec? And 90% people that you want to blast the crap out of are in an NPC corp, and are thus untouchable in HS, but thems the brakes.
Maxsim Goratiev Gallente Imperial Tau Syndicate	Posted - 2009.05.04 20:01:00 - [13] bad idea Hm...
Fille Balle TachyonTubbies Dark Taboo	Posted - 2009.05.04 20:13:00 - [14] Interesting idea Caldari. I'll add it to the list, but you need to clarify first: So you can declare war on sov holding alliances, but you don't need to hold sov in order to do so? Because that would be an acceptable solution. And for the record: I have my own ways to avoid empire wars. Some very obvious ones are don't go to highsec, because that's where the cowards hang out, or play something else. This is not about me. I could care less about lame highsec wars. But it matters to the noobs who are trying to build something up, and then a bunch of vetertans come along and put a stop to it because it so easy for them to do it, and they don't like a challange. I remember my first war. I was all excited and I envisioned a last man standing 300 type of showdown, but that never happened. We got this big fleet together and we where all ready for the big fight. Then these two guys show up, and they run straight for the nearest station. They stay in the station for four hours, taking all the smack could give them, before finally logging off. After that, I decided that pew pew in empire is totally lame. This is why I don't pew pew in empire. PS: pvp does not mean pew pew. There are many ways to pvp. Market pvp, industry pvp. The list goes on.
Fille Balle TachyonTubbies Dark Taboo	Posted - 2009.05.04 20:13:00 - [15] Originally by: Maxsim Goratiev bad idea Care to elaborate?
Traidor Disloyal Minmatar Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.05.04 20:20:00 - [16] Originally by: Caldari 5 WarDecing over a Griefing? Seriously there is nothing that anyone can do to you in HS that you can't do to them. So either put up with it, do it back to them or move to another part of HS. So we have to call each other names in local till hell freezes over? Oh yeah, that sounds like fun. But then you could say the same for people getting decced by so-called griefers. They can move to a different location in high sec couldn't they? Put up with the griefing or move right? Originally by: Caldari 5 If they are WarDecing someone with Sov they can still make a living. Someone with Sov shouldn't need mercs and if they do they do not deserve sov. Originally by: Caldari 5 I did think it through, there are way to many Griefing wars in HS, either that or they are over something idiotically stupid. eg: Recent war that our alliance was in, was over the CEO the previous executor corp leaving a shuttle outside a POS. One mans stupid reason for a war is another mans valid reason for a war. I think mining is stupid but I don't go on the forums calling for it to end and just have NPCs provide minerals. Originally by: Caldari 5 And 90% people that you want to blast the crap out of are in an NPC corp, and are thus untouchable in HS, but thems the brakes. I've never really had that many problems with NPC corp people. Most of mine have to do with player corporations. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it.
Caldari 5 Amarr The Element Syndicate Black Mesa Project	Posted - 2009.05.04 20:29:00 - [17] Edited by: Caldari 5 on 04/05/2009 20:29:21 Originally by: Fille Balle Interesting idea Caldari. I'll add it to the list, but you need to clarify first: So you can declare war on sov holding alliances, but you don't need to hold sov in order to do so? yes my idea was : 1 - the Corp/alliance being WarDec'd has SOV 2 - the Corp/Alliance doing the WarDec has SOV 3 - both have SOV. One of the above needs to be true.
Caldari 5 Amarr The Element Syndicate Black Mesa Project	Posted - 2009.05.04 20:32:00 - [18] Originally by: Traidor Disloyal Originally by: Caldari 5 If they are WarDecing someone with Sov they can still make a living. Someone with Sov shouldn't need mercs and if they do they do not deserve sov. I think you mis-understood, the Merc's don't need SOV to WarDec someone that does have SOV.
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2009.05.04 20:34:00 - [19] I have long thought that corporation standings toward each other should govern war and peace. And applying negative standings should take time. War always has some sort of forewarning. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Fille Balle TachyonTubbies Dark Taboo	Posted - 2009.05.04 21:32:00 - [20] Originally by: Anubis Xian I have long thought that corporation standings toward each other should govern war and peace. And applying negative standings should take time. War always has some sort of forewarning. That's an interesting idea. Has been added to the list. Forgive me if I interpreted it wrong, and feel free to correct me. Originally by: Caldari 5 yes my idea was : 1 - the Corp/alliance being WarDec'd has SOV 2 - the Corp/Alliance doing the WarDec has SOV 3 - both have SOV. One of the above needs to be true. Thanks for clarifying. Your idea has been added. And again, thanks for your input. Originally by: Traidor Disloyal Someone with Sov shouldn't need mercs and if they do they do not deserve sov. Oh, you mean like kenny? Even though sov holding alliances don't always need to hire mercs, it can still be quite profittable to declare war against them. Even if it's just to gank their freighters when they arrive in empire.
Clanrat2	Posted - 2009.05.04 22:29:00 - [21] Edited by: Clanrat2 on 04/05/2009 22:29:51 I like the conscript contract idea, the rest kinda meh wrong char, god damn it
Pvt Public7 Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.05.05 02:54:00 - [22] Idea 4 is the only one that should even be considered. PVP in EVE is NOT and SHOULD NEVER BE consentual-only. You want consentual PVP, go play on SiSi. --- SWA was here IAC is a loser
Fille Balle TachyonTubbies Dark Taboo	Posted - 2009.05.05 09:00:00 - [23] Originally by: Pvt Public7 Idea 4 is the only one that should even be considered. PVP in EVE is NOT and SHOULD NEVER BE consentual-only. You want consentual PVP, go play on SiSi. It isn't and never will be. PVP doesn't mean pew pew. There are many forms of pvp, pew pew simply being the most popular one. Even if you never leave the station you are still subject to pvp. Industrial corps are already immune to pew pew if they want to be. All they need to do is set up a bunch of contracts and have others do all the out of station work for them. Besides, you can stay in an npc corp if you really want to avoid wardec's, but you are still subject to pvp.
Wubanosh	Posted - 2009.05.05 12:11:00 - [24] Corporation A pay Concord 2 mill to wage war on corporation B for a week. Corp B pay concord 4 million to make them end the war with corporation A, and tell Corporation B price just increased if they want concrod to turn the blind eye for another week to 6 million. after all it's buisness, even for concord. and any mercenary play along with the best payment. Anyway people would come to a point negotiation with the other party in the war would be more favorable than keep paying Concord. The war mechanics is only flawed in one way and that is that the agressor can bribe Concord to get in to a war, while the defender can not counter bribe to get out of it. This leaves people with only option to avoid war to stay put in a npc corporation until they burn out, or get tired of eve, even without learning what eve is about. The price should also increase with system secruity, concord should send additional war bills to the agressor if they go to war in 1.0-0.8 system's. Concord Mail. "your member xxxxx have actively opened hostile agression in .... system, this have outraged the local mega corporations as it have hurt their daily buisness in the area. They demand x.xxx.xxx Isk in compensation within 24 hours or we have no choice but to declare the war invalid" There is many things that could improve war's in eve and still grant people some safety in high sec without them being forced to stay out of what Eve is about and remain for their life in a npc corporation. Same with Remaining in npc corporations when doing hostile acts, a member in a npc corporation that open hostilities frequently should be kicked over in the militia corporation, not remain under the safety of a starter corp.
Kal Shanai	Posted - 2009.05.05 14:06:00 - [25] I really like the idea of conscription tbh. NPC mercs and whatnot is not such a good idea, neither is forcing any player with a good standing to have to take sides and agree to or deny one corps warring rights. Another idea might be a pre-set amount of money to end the war, the maximal amount governed by some variable derived from the number of players in the attacking corp and their age. That'd remove the risk of getting scammed when paying a ransom really.
Fille Balle TachyonTubbies Dark Taboo	Posted - 2009.05.05 19:55:00 - [26] Thank you for your input Wubanosh. I've added your suggestion to the best of my abilities, but feel free to correct me if I've misinterpreted your suggesiton. To all the players that are against any or all of these suggestions, please come up with other suggestions instead of repeating all the options that are currently available. I've all ready stated the flaw in the current mechanics. Declaring war currently costs 2mil for a corp, 50mil for an alliance. Hiring mercs to help you out costs 50mil+ If this is not unbalanced, then I don't know what is. I don't think anybody wants to simply increase the wardec fee, as that wouldn't solve the current problem: Hiring mercs means you can get scammed. Declaring war does not put you at this risk. If you know a way to solve this problem without any hassle for either party, then please enlighten me. I'm not looking for a way to nerf you, I'm looking for a mutually acceptable solution.
Kal Shanai	Posted - 2009.05.05 22:29:00 - [27] Well, there is a way to at least minimize the risk of getting scammed, when dealing with mercs: Make your choice of mercs based on independent recommendations from friends, or people you know to be trustworthy and true. Its much like hiring a guy for your company really. You take him in partially on his credentials, his education, his past experiences. These, in EVE, equals their reputation among the larger and older corps and alliances, their members age and activity and so on... So, with few hours spent on research, you can be pretty sure you wont get scammed. Theres still the problem of griefers wardeccing, asking for a ransom, and not cancelling the war when the ransom has been paid.
Sir Substance Minmatar The Empire Nation Dead Mans Hand	Posted - 2009.05.05 23:36:00 - [28] i like no. 1 and no. 4 the most, as those both use player interaction. no .1 would be awesome, if it could be made to work. no .4 sounds fun, but it also seems like a way to make an easy buck. i accpet your contract, and everyone elses in the region, then stay docked for two weeks. profit. perhaps a per-kill contract? i.e i make a contract that includes you in my side of the war and pays 500k per frig/dessie, 1mil per cruiser, 1.5 for a BC and 2 for a BS. 10 for a cap. if you get on the KM, you get the money.
Fille Balle TachyonTubbies Dark Taboo	Posted - 2009.05.06 08:56:00 - [29] Edited by: Fille Balle on 06/05/2009 08:56:59 Originally by: Kal Shanai Well, there is a way to at least minimize the risk of getting scammed, when dealing with mercs: Make your choice of mercs based on independent recommendations from friends, or people you know to be trustworthy and true. Its much like hiring a guy for your company really. You take him in partially on his credentials, his education, his past experiences. These, in EVE, equals their reputation among the larger and older corps and alliances, their members age and activity and so on... So, with few hours spent on research, you can be pretty sure you wont get scammed. Theres still the problem of griefers wardeccing, asking for a ransom, and not cancelling the war when the ransom has been paid. Indeed, that's easy when you've played for a long time and you know a lot of people. This is about those poor noobs that get a bit more of the harsh reality of eve than they deserve (imo). Besides, I think veteran players should move out of highsec, and not just the mission runners, irrespective of being in a player corp. But that's another debate entirely. What this is all about is the fact that the wardeccing corp CAN'T UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES GET SCAMMED, and yet the decked corp can. This is clearly in favor of the deccing corp, and gives older players in random grief corps an unfair advantage that they don't deserve. Besides that, hiring mercs costs a lot more than declaring war. There should be more options for younger corps. And telling all the noobs that WOW is that way doesn't do you any favors. EvE is a business, a business has to grow, other wise the owner looses interest and eventually stops investing time/money in it. Giving new players a fair chance is a must. I'm not saying I like it, I had a hard time just like you did when you first started. I didn't go whining on the forums, because I realized that I just didn't know the game well enough to make any comments about how things should be. But I'm not talking about handing them all a billion isk on a silver plate. That would probably do more damage then constant griefing for a year. Part of the motivation for all players in this game is isk. For some, it's the only motivation. Option one was intended to show an example of how the wardeccing corp could get scammed, just like the defenders can get scammed. Is it a good solution? I don't know, but please, if you have a better idea, enlighten me!
Maxsim Goratiev Gallente Imperial Tau Syndicate	Posted - 2009.05.06 09:01:00 - [30] BIG NO to the hole idea, IN RL if i whant to puch you i don't even have to click a button, eve is realistick game, why should it be different? You are offering thenoob corps to hire NPC with there effishiensy highly qustionable. WHy not hire a merc. corp that will take care of everything for you (for a good summ. ofcourse). You cannot cansle a war, that just does not make sence. Hm...

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