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ECCM - lowers chance of being scanned out

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Spurty Caldari Summer Summer Summer Fun	Posted - 2009.05.05 12:20:00 - [1] Edited by: Spurty on 05/05/2009 12:20:22 Sounds like a big nasty screw up type bug to me: ECCM description: Originally by: "description" A secondary electronic array that provides a significant boost to sensor strength for a short time. Penalty: Using more than one type of this module or similar modules that affect the same attribute on the ship will be penalized. Nothing here about reducing your ships signature radius. So, either this module is buggy and needs fixing or, the people saying ECCM has a use outside of trying to up the odds in your favor vs an ECM ship are smoking something. Which is it? Uncertain which forum to post to, please move it this is the wrong one. Originally by: Infinity Ziona Thus I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.05.05 12:44:00 - [2] It was stated as an intended effect in the Probing threads during testing. ______________________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.05.05 12:51:00 - [3] Originally by: Spurty So, either this module is buggy and needs fixing or, the people saying ECCM has a use outside of trying to up the odds in your favor vs an ECM ship are smoking something. Which is it? Neither. Working as intended.
Great Artista Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.05.05 13:14:00 - [4] Game could use a lowslot fitted, signature decreasing device. I mean, why not? _______ ◕◡◕
Lumy Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.05.05 13:15:00 - [5] To clarify: Signal strength of scanned ship is function of its sensor strength and signature radius. Higher sensor strength or lower signature radius => lower signal strength => harder to find. Working as intended. Joomla! in EVE - IGB compatible CMS.
Space Wanderer	Posted - 2009.05.05 13:36:00 - [6] Originally by: Spurty Originally by: "description" A secondary electronic array that provides a significant boost to sensor strength for a short time. Nothing here about reducing your ships signature radius. I suppose you should learn a bit more about scanning ships mechanics.
Spurty Caldari Summer Summer Summer Fun	Posted - 2009.05.05 13:58:00 - [7] Originally by: Lumy To clarify: Signal strength of scanned ship is function of its sensor strength and signature radius. Higher sensor strength or lower signature radius => lower signal strength => harder to find. Working as intended. Signal Strength = would be defined by the object. Whatever it leaks, i.e. some signal such as radiation or a reflection from radar Sensor strength = your ships ability to tune in to signals, higher the strength you have, the weaker the signal you can pick up. Signature radius = affect on an object, of leaking data to help someone 'focus' in on you as a target. ECCM allows you to boost your ability to 'tune in' ONLY for a 'short time' (i.e. when its active). ECCM on should be leaking like freaking crazy! If anything, ECCM on should make you incredibly easy to find as you have increased the power your sensors are putting out. So although what you are saying is how this is working (I suppose), its broken, upside and and backwards. :-0 Well, as long as we all understand this is what CCP wants done. Originally by: Infinity Ziona Thus I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2009.05.05 14:12:00 - [8] Originally by: Great Artista Game could use a lowslot fitted, signature decreasing device. I mean, why not? i'd like that.. i think.. looks at his standard 3x nanofibres II personally, i'd be in favour of an astro rig doing that due to the armor penalty. otherwise amarr would completely become the smallest race - in most cases they already are, because minnies "have to" use extenders. - putting the gist back into logistics
Spurty Caldari Summer Summer Summer Fun	Posted - 2009.05.05 14:12:00 - [9] Oh and CCP, add this to the description, bonuses not being clearly labeled isn't nice. Originally by: Infinity Ziona Thus I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Lumy Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.05.05 14:17:00 - [10] Originally by: Spurty Originally by: Lumy To clarify: Signal strength of scanned ship is function of its sensor strength and signature radius. Higher sensor strength or lower signature radius => lower signal strength => harder to find. Working as intended. Signal Strength = would be defined by the object. Whatever it leaks, i.e. some signal such as radiation or a reflection from radar Sensor strength = your ships ability to tune in to signals, higher the strength you have, the weaker the signal you can pick up. Signature radius = affect on an object, of leaking data to help someone 'focus' in on you as a target. ECCM allows you to boost your ability to 'tune in' ONLY for a 'short time' (i.e. when its active). ECCM on should be leaking like freaking crazy! If anything, ECCM on should make you incredibly easy to find as you have increased the power your sensors are putting out. So although what you are saying is how this is working (I suppose), its broken, upside and and backwards. :-0 Well, as long as we all understand this is what CCP wants done. <rp> ECCM allows you to filter distortions from input of your sensor arrays, so ECM will not overload your targeting systems. Under normal conditions, it helps you reduce distortions caused by natural sources. Effectively allowing you to use your active sensors at lower strength. Thus reducing your active profile. </rp> Joomla! in EVE - IGB compatible CMS.

Bronson Hughes ADVANCED Combat and Engineering	Posted - 2009.05.05 14:58:00 - [11] Originally by: Spurty Oh and CCP, add this to the description, bonuses not being clearly labeled isn't nice. Most stuff in EvE isn't clearly labelled, yet most of us have figured it out anyways. EvE isn't about making things easy for people. Originally by: Lumy <rp> ECCM allows you to filter distortions from input of your sensor arrays, so ECM will not overload your targeting systems. Under normal conditions, it helps you reduce distortions caused by natural sources. Effectively allowing you to use your active sensors at lower strength. Thus reducing your active profile. </rp> I like it. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Spurty Caldari Summer Summer Summer Fun	Posted - 2009.05.05 14:59:00 - [12] Originally by: Lumy <rp> ECCM allows you to filter distortions from input of your sensor arrays, so ECM will not overload your targeting systems. Under normal conditions, it helps you reduce distortions caused by natural sources. Effectively allowing you to use your active sensors at lower strength. Thus reducing your active profile. </rp> Where are you pulling this from? Its certainly not from the module description, which is my issue. How are people supposed to KNOW this if its not in the description? Originally by: Infinity Ziona Thus I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Spurty Caldari Summer Summer Summer Fun	Posted - 2009.05.05 15:04:00 - [13] Originally by: Bronson Hughes Most stuff in EvE isn't clearly labelled, yet most of us have figured it out anyways. EvE isn't about making things easy for people. Yes, thats 100% true, remember nano-fibres gave all three bonuses (Mass reduction, speed increase and inertia buff)? Oh yah, I recall what happened there, it got 'fixed'. But seriously, why put in a description for anything if you want people to learn by trial and error? How did ANYONE figure out this side affect ? Surely it was just 'noticed' accidentally or a dev told some people. If its intended, it should be in the description. Pretty simple really. No, I don't want ECCM to lose this bonus, it really needed a second use ;) Yes, I want it listed in the description. Why? When I need to know what module it is that does this when I have a relapse of memory and can't recall but need it so I can undock in the next 20 seconds when there is a free window of opportunity ;0 Originally by: Infinity Ziona Thus I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.05 15:33:00 - [14] Originally by: Spurty How did ANYONE figure out this side affect ? I cant find it now but in the old scanning guide there was a formula for calculating your ships signal strength. And its sig radius divided by sensor strenght. And eccm as you know increases sensor strength. Not really hard to figure out once you know the scanning mechanics. And yea this is my sig. Real PVP'ers only use f1.
Spurty Caldari Summer Summer Summer Fun	Posted - 2009.05.05 15:40:00 - [15] Originally by: Esmenet Originally by: Spurty How did ANYONE figure out this side affect ? I cant find it now but in the old scanning guide there was a formula for calculating your ships signal strength. And its sig radius divided by sensor strenght. And eccm as you know increases sensor strength. Not really hard to figure out once you know the scanning mechanics. Er ... how is the targets sensor strength any part of that calculation???? Its the person scannings skill that affects that calculation. The target only opposes this with their radius. Really, doesn't make any sense at all the way you are saying it. I really need to see that formula if thats the case, seems like more 'weird science'. Originally by: Infinity Ziona Thus I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.05 15:54:00 - [16] Originally by: Spurty Originally by: Esmenet Originally by: Spurty How did ANYONE figure out this side affect ? I cant find it now but in the old scanning guide there was a formula for calculating your ships signal strength. And its sig radius divided by sensor strenght. And eccm as you know increases sensor strength. Not really hard to figure out once you know the scanning mechanics. Er ... how is the targets sensor strength any part of that calculation???? Its the person scannings skill that affects that calculation. The target only opposes this with their radius. Really, doesn't make any sense at all the way you are saying it. I really need to see that formula if thats the case, seems like more 'weird science'. Your ships signal strenght (in other words the target number the prober will match his skills against) = Sig radius/sensor strength. I cant be arsed to search for the guides. And yea this is my sig. Real PVP'ers only use f1.
Bronson Hughes ADVANCED Combat and Engineering	Posted - 2009.05.05 17:53:00 - [17] Edited by: Bronson Hughes on 05/05/2009 17:55:42 Originally by: Spurty But seriously, why put in a description for anything if you want people to learn by trial and error? ECM and ECCM module descriptions don't explain ECM mechanics. Missiles/missile launchers don't give the exact formulae used to determine missile damage. The tracking equation isn't listed on turrets. Why not? Because if the description for everything explained exactly how it interacted with everything else in the game, each description would be a small novel. Also, the Attributes tab is your friend. It usually contains far more information than can be found in the description. And yes, EvE is about trial and error. Always has been. Originally by: Spurty How did ANYONE figure out this side affect ? It was in one of the old scan probe guides that CCP published. Obviously enough people have read it to know how it works or nobody would be responding here. EDIT: Originally by: Spurty Er ... how is the targets sensor strength any part of that calculation???? Originally by: Lumy To clarify: Signal strength of scanned ship is function of its sensor strength and signature radius. Higher sensor strength or lower signature radius => lower signal strength => harder to find. Seriously, how about you accept the answers that people are giving you instead of ignoring them and asking again? A lot of things in EvE don't necessarily make sense from a 'real world physics' point of view, but they are that way for gameplay balance reasons. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Spurty Caldari Summer Summer Summer Fun	Posted - 2009.05.05 22:04:00 - [18] The attributes page, says nothing at all (Zilch) about whatever it is you are talking about, only that your strength goes up when this module is turned on. I can't accept what is so far, only opinions. All I do is I demand facts :0 Get the facts to me, not your opinions and I will study them. I am able to read formula as sadly, I am a comp sci graduate and advanced math and electronics was one of my fav modules (I find numbers and mathematics fascinating). Originally by: Infinity Ziona Thus I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Expendable Pilot	Posted - 2009.05.05 22:19:00 - [19] Originally by: Spurty The attributes page, says nothing at all (Zilch) about whatever it is you are talking about, only that your strength goes up when this module is turned on. I can't accept what is so far, only opinions. All I do is I demand facts :0 Get the facts to me, not your opinions and I will study them. I am able to read formula as sadly, I am a comp sci graduate and advanced math and electronics was one of my fav modules (I find numbers and mathematics fascinating). Nice. So you think you're smart. If you're so damn smart, then get a ship put an ECCM on it, and get a buddy to scan you down. Do it with the ECCM shut off, then do it with it turned on and see what the difference is. Instead of 'demanding' why not actually try it out? That way you will get your 'facts' undiluted by any 'opinions'. Bottom line: Stop being lazy. Get off your ass and do something.
Myra2007 Shafrak Industries	Posted - 2009.05.05 22:27:00 - [20] Just ignore the good advice given to you then. We'll happily exploit this fact in the meantime. And if you're so smart then go to eve search and look for the old scanning guide by hoshi. Or just look for one of the gazillion dev posts on eccm + scanning. We're not here to do your homework prodigy... -- Originally by: Jasper Dark I agree! Lets go back into caves and lick rocks!

Spurty Caldari Summer Summer Summer Fun	Posted - 2009.05.05 22:33:00 - [21] well sherlocks, I have done so and saw no difference, hence the need for clarification. When I see the math presented, I can see what the reduction value is and see just how much it helps. Apparently, no it doesn't in my limited testing Originally by: Infinity Ziona Thus I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Spurty Caldari Summer Summer Summer Fun	Posted - 2009.05.05 22:40:00 - [22] I'll retest again tonight and take print screens so its clear what I see. Originally by: Infinity Ziona Thus I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2009.05.05 22:43:00 - [23] Originally by: Expendable Pilot get a ship put an ECCM on it, and get a buddy to scan you down. Do it with the ECCM shut off, then do it with it turned on and see what the difference is. I did this with a ship with 3 ECCMs. The only effect it had was a higher deviation because of the lower strength. However, because of smart placement, it really didn't take any longer. ____________________ CCP: Catering to the cowards of a cold, harsh universe since November, 2006.
Myra2007 Shafrak Industries	Posted - 2009.05.05 22:45:00 - [24] Yeah, good luck with that. I'll give you two hints though: 1. You gotta activate the module for it to work. 2. The results of your probes are deterministic now. So you can just hop onto sisi and test it right there. If you can't figure it out i doubt anyone is going to help you with that attitude. -- Originally by: Jasper Dark I agree! Lets go back into caves and lick rocks!
Spurty Caldari Summer Summer Summer Fun	Posted - 2009.05.05 23:01:00 - [25] my attitude is born of frustration. I believe, the emperor has new cloths with this one. My limited testing attests to it. The proof isn't in the pudding for me .. but I'm not perfectly spec'ed as a prober, hence questioning of this entire 'undocumented' mechanic. Apparently, no one else has anything 'solid' to offer. I'm far from 'clever', but I do have plenty of common sense. Originally by: Infinity Ziona Thus I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.05.05 23:24:00 - [26] Sensor strength has ALWAYS had an effect on signal strength, pre- and post-apocrypha. If you want a RP reason behind it: Scan probes find ships by looking for emissions from the ship's sensor. Better sensors emit less, and are thus harder to find. Or something. I'm sure you can make up something plausible
Nizdaar Gallente Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2009.05.06 00:02:00 - [27] ECCM on a battleship is going to have little to no effect. Try it on a logistics ship. They're fairly difficult to probe out now. Damned near impossible when they have ECCM fitted and activated.
Spurty Caldari Summer Summer Summer Fun	Posted - 2009.05.06 00:14:00 - [28] Well, here's the (completed) answer in full: The full formula to calculate Signal Strength is: Signal Strength = (Probe Sensor Strength * (1 + Level of Astrometric Triangulation * 0.05) / 100) * (1 û (0.65 ((Target Range / Max Range) ^ 1.5))) * (Target Signature Radius / Target Sensor Strength) sorry for bothering you all, only took me 10 mins to find this once I realized it wasn't common knowledge (see some of the replies in this thread) and googled ;0 Originally by: Infinity Ziona Thus I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Trimutius III Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.06 00:18:00 - [29] I should say that me and my friend tested one interesting thing. Rook + Fleet Command Ship + Covert Ops. They are hanging at the same point Rook has ECCM and Projected ECCM and ECCMs itself and projects ECCM on CS, and then Cov Ops launches probes and tried to scan down Rook or Command Ship, and it was impossible and probes were placed idealy around CS and Rook. So we just get invulnerable Command Ship that gives bonuses to gang and sits on a spot with Rook. ------------------------------------------------- I am envoy from nowhere in nowhere. Nobody and nothing have sent me. And though it is impossible I exist ¬ Trimutius
Spurty Caldari Summer Summer Summer Fun	Posted - 2009.05.06 00:46:00 - [30] I won't bother you with the code used, last time I did it got moderated anyway, but its pretty linear in that you 1/2 the chance of being probed with eccm. Using my character to seed: $ ./sigstr.pl Signal Str for unfitted tempest will be 1.50315789473684 @ 10AU Signal Str for ECCM fitted tempest will be 0.766917293233083 @ 10AU Now, if this is the formula, I haven't reproduced it lol. Also, do what with the ( $tsr / $tss ) part? tl;dr : I believe you that its part of the formula, I find the formula lacking in sense, I'm not seeing the difference myself (don't understand why), but its not my game ;0 Originally by: Infinity Ziona Thus I AM BETTER THAN YOU.

Spurty Caldari Summer Summer Summer Fun	Posted - 2009.05.06 00:48:00 - [31] Originally by: Trimutius III I should say that me and my friend tested one interesting thing. Rook + Fleet Command Ship + Covert Ops. They are hanging at the same point Rook has ECCM and Projected ECCM and ECCMs itself and projects ECCM on CS, and then Cov Ops launches probes and tried to scan down Rook or Command Ship, and it was impossible and probes were placed idealy around CS and Rook. So we just get invulnerable Command Ship that gives bonuses to gang and sits on a spot with Rook. Excellent use of the mechanic. Originally by: Infinity Ziona Thus I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
Atsuko Ratu Caldari Interstellar eXodus	Posted - 2009.05.06 05:18:00 - [32] Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 06/05/2009 05:19:11 You really should look this stuff up before arguing for an entire thread :P
Spurty Caldari Summer Summer Summer Fun	Posted - 2009.05.06 10:23:00 - [33] I didn't know where to look as the description doesn't mention this bonus (It really should, this is a HUGE reason to fit this module, its actually better than the primary reason). That was why I argued, I expected better from you guys, you usually hit the nail on the head ;0 No one else did either mind you and look at some of the looney arsed replies :) Thanks anyway for keeping it on my mind so I actually got the answer. Originally by: Infinity Ziona Thus I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
lecrotta Minmatar lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.05.06 12:38:00 - [34] Originally by: Spurty Originally by: Trimutius III I should say that me and my friend tested one interesting thing. Rook + Fleet Command Ship + Covert Ops. They are hanging at the same point Rook has ECCM and Projected ECCM and ECCMs itself and projects ECCM on CS, and then Cov Ops launches probes and tried to scan down Rook or Command Ship, and it was impossible and probes were placed idealy around CS and Rook. So we just get invulnerable Command Ship that gives bonuses to gang and sits on a spot with Rook. Excellent use of the mechanic. /signed. Props on a insightful and useful way of adapting this mechanic.
Polinus Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.05.06 13:09:00 - [35] Originally by: Spurty Edited by: Spurty on 05/05/2009 12:20:22 Sounds like a big nasty screw up type bug to me: ECCM description: Originally by: "description" A secondary electronic array that provides a significant boost to sensor strength for a short time. Penalty: Using more than one type of this module or similar modules that affect the same attribute on the ship will be penalized. Nothing here about reducing your ships signature radius. So, either this module is buggy and needs fixing or, the people saying ECCM has a use outside of trying to up the odds in your favor vs an ECM ship are smoking something. Which is it? Uncertain which forum to post to, please move it this is the wrong one. Your chance of beign probed is linked to your signature adn sensor strenght. Just go and read the original blog from the now looong done changes to probing. So this modules does work as intended. It raises your sensor strenghts so reducing your chance of being probed.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar M. Corp	Posted - 2009.05.06 13:11:00 - [36] Originally by: Nizdaar ECCM on a battleship is going to have little to no effect. Try it on a logistics ship. They're fairly difficult to probe out now. Damned near impossible when they have ECCM fitted and activated. the scimitar with ECCM is the harderst ship to probe in game. In fact I can say .. impossible. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Narcil Starwind Exa Utopia	Posted - 2009.05.06 21:26:00 - [37] Actually the Buzzard with ECCM is the hardest ship to scan out. It is not impossible though. It requires maxed or nearly maxed skills and kit but it is possible. All of the Cov-ops are harder to find than the logistics ships.
Altair Mogwa Amok.	Posted - 2009.05.07 06:22:00 - [38] Originally by: Kagura Nikon the scimitar with ECCM is the harderst ship to probe in game. In fact I can say .. impossible. Gives me an idea given the ECM strength boost maybe scimis should fit 2x ECCM and drop the cloak.


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