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Tarm
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Posted - 2004.09.02 19:29:00 -
[1]
Now, before I get into the actual post let me just say that I obviously haven't tested the new ship(s) as they aren't available yet. This is solely my opinion based on the information gleaned from their descriptions.
Thread References:
Logistics Cruiser stats.
Remote Armor Repairer stats.
I'm just going to comment on the Guardian class cruiser as that is what I have trained for. With 6 hi slots and 6 medium repairers, the Guardian can produce 1,560 Armor Repaired every 8 seconds or 10,920 armor repaired per minute. That is 520 armor repaired on 3 separate battleships per 8 seconds at a distance of up to 50km away (from ship's bonus).
Now.....compare that to a dedicated repair Armageddon.
8x Large Remote Repairers
3x Cap Rechargers
2x Large Repairers, 3x Hardners, 3x Cap Relays
This setup allows the ship to produce 4,160 armor per 8 seconds, or 29,120 armor per minute while tanking enemy fire (something the Guardian will not be able to do effectively). This is 1,386 armor repaired on 3 separate battleships per 8 seconds at a distance of 7.5km away.
The only thing that makes the Guardian better is the range at which it can repair (often negated by interceptors or dual mwd cruisers) and the cap recharge rate (which can be negated by multiple cap relays on an Armageddon).
Why train 1.5 months for a ship that is immediately out-classed? I understand that the cost will be somewhat different (after the original tech 2 cost gouging subsides), convincing some to go with the Guardian, but what other reasons would you have for using one?
Comments and constructive ideas are welcome, flaming and immature ranting is not.
Proceed.
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Tarm
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Posted - 2004.09.02 19:29:00 -
[2]
Now, before I get into the actual post let me just say that I obviously haven't tested the new ship(s) as they aren't available yet. This is solely my opinion based on the information gleaned from their descriptions.
Thread References:
Logistics Cruiser stats.
Remote Armor Repairer stats.
I'm just going to comment on the Guardian class cruiser as that is what I have trained for. With 6 hi slots and 6 medium repairers, the Guardian can produce 1,560 Armor Repaired every 8 seconds or 10,920 armor repaired per minute. That is 520 armor repaired on 3 separate battleships per 8 seconds at a distance of up to 50km away (from ship's bonus).
Now.....compare that to a dedicated repair Armageddon.
8x Large Remote Repairers
3x Cap Rechargers
2x Large Repairers, 3x Hardners, 3x Cap Relays
This setup allows the ship to produce 4,160 armor per 8 seconds, or 29,120 armor per minute while tanking enemy fire (something the Guardian will not be able to do effectively). This is 1,386 armor repaired on 3 separate battleships per 8 seconds at a distance of 7.5km away.
The only thing that makes the Guardian better is the range at which it can repair (often negated by interceptors or dual mwd cruisers) and the cap recharge rate (which can be negated by multiple cap relays on an Armageddon).
Why train 1.5 months for a ship that is immediately out-classed? I understand that the cost will be somewhat different (after the original tech 2 cost gouging subsides), convincing some to go with the Guardian, but what other reasons would you have for using one?
Comments and constructive ideas are welcome, flaming and immature ranting is not.
Proceed.
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.09.02 20:29:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Tarm
Now, before I get into the actual post let me just say that I obviously haven't tested the new ship(s) as they aren't available yet. This is solely my opinion based on the information gleaned from their descriptions.
Thread References:
Logistics Cruiser stats.
Remote Armor Repairer stats.
I'm just going to comment on the Guardian class cruiser as that is what I have trained for. With 6 hi slots and 6 medium repairers, the Guardian can produce 1,560 Armor Repaired every 8 seconds or 10,920 armor repaired per minute. That is 520 armor repaired on 3 separate battleships per 8 seconds at a distance of up to 50km away (from ship's bonus).
Now.....compare that to a dedicated repair Armageddon.
8x Large Remote Repairers
3x Cap Rechargers
2x Large Repairers, 3x Hardners, 3x Cap Relays
This setup allows the ship to produce 4,160 armor per 8 seconds, or 29,120 armor per minute while tanking enemy fire (something the Guardian will not be able to do effectively). This is 1,386 armor repaired on 3 separate battleships per 8 seconds at a distance of 7.5km away.
The only thing that makes the Guardian better is the range at which it can repair (often negated by interceptors or dual mwd cruisers) and the cap recharge rate (which can be negated by multiple cap relays on an Armageddon).
Why train 1.5 months for a ship that is immediately out-classed? I understand that the cost will be somewhat different (after the original tech 2 cost gouging subsides), convincing some to go with the Guardian, but what other reasons would you have for using one?
Comments and constructive ideas are welcome, flaming and immature ranting is not.
Proceed.
Dont think you can run 8 remote armor reps, an apoc even got troubles running 8 medium shield transfers.
--------
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.09.02 20:29:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Tarm
Now, before I get into the actual post let me just say that I obviously haven't tested the new ship(s) as they aren't available yet. This is solely my opinion based on the information gleaned from their descriptions.
Thread References:
Logistics Cruiser stats.
Remote Armor Repairer stats.
I'm just going to comment on the Guardian class cruiser as that is what I have trained for. With 6 hi slots and 6 medium repairers, the Guardian can produce 1,560 Armor Repaired every 8 seconds or 10,920 armor repaired per minute. That is 520 armor repaired on 3 separate battleships per 8 seconds at a distance of up to 50km away (from ship's bonus).
Now.....compare that to a dedicated repair Armageddon.
8x Large Remote Repairers
3x Cap Rechargers
2x Large Repairers, 3x Hardners, 3x Cap Relays
This setup allows the ship to produce 4,160 armor per 8 seconds, or 29,120 armor per minute while tanking enemy fire (something the Guardian will not be able to do effectively). This is 1,386 armor repaired on 3 separate battleships per 8 seconds at a distance of 7.5km away.
The only thing that makes the Guardian better is the range at which it can repair (often negated by interceptors or dual mwd cruisers) and the cap recharge rate (which can be negated by multiple cap relays on an Armageddon).
Why train 1.5 months for a ship that is immediately out-classed? I understand that the cost will be somewhat different (after the original tech 2 cost gouging subsides), convincing some to go with the Guardian, but what other reasons would you have for using one?
Comments and constructive ideas are welcome, flaming and immature ranting is not.
Proceed.
Dont think you can run 8 remote armor reps, an apoc even got troubles running 8 medium shield transfers.
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-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Dao 2
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Posted - 2004.09.02 20:49:00 -
[5]
they have that bonus so that the range is extremely long ;p
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Dao 2
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Posted - 2004.09.02 20:49:00 -
[6]
they have that bonus so that the range is extremely long ;p
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Tarm
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Posted - 2004.09.02 20:56:00 -
[7]
Alright, so lets say I use them in bursts on the Armageddon with a cap injector. That would be feasible.
The range of the new cruisers for an remote armor repairer is approximately 25km (5km x 500%), not a huge distance.
I'm still fairly dissapointed in the new ships.
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Tarm
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Posted - 2004.09.02 20:56:00 -
[8]
Alright, so lets say I use them in bursts on the Armageddon with a cap injector. That would be feasible.
The range of the new cruisers for an remote armor repairer is approximately 25km (5km x 500%), not a huge distance.
I'm still fairly dissapointed in the new ships.
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Kel Shek
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Posted - 2004.09.02 21:50:00 -
[9]
isn't it a 750%, PER LEVEL bonus, at least on the Onieros?
I would imagine that could make it a VERY signifigant difference...
~~~~~
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And Heaven in a Wild Flower
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour
~~William Blake |
Kel Shek
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Posted - 2004.09.02 21:50:00 -
[10]
isn't it a 750%, PER LEVEL bonus, at least on the Onieros?
I would imagine that could make it a VERY signifigant difference...
~~~~~
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And Heaven in a Wild Flower
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour
~~William Blake |
Shevar
|
Posted - 2004.09.02 21:54:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Kel Shek
isn't it a 750%, PER LEVEL bonus, at least on the Onieros?
I would imagine that could make it a VERY signifigant difference...
Its a race bonus, so its set.
--------
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
|
Shevar
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Posted - 2004.09.02 21:54:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Kel Shek
isn't it a 750%, PER LEVEL bonus, at least on the Onieros?
I would imagine that could make it a VERY signifigant difference...
Its a race bonus, so its set.
--------
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
|
Selim
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Posted - 2004.09.02 22:09:00 -
[13]
the skill for tracking links needs to be changed to 5% boost to the effects, rather than 5% boost to duration.
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Selim
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Posted - 2004.09.02 22:09:00 -
[14]
the skill for tracking links needs to be changed to 5% boost to the effects, rather than 5% boost to duration.
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olyyy
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Posted - 2004.09.02 22:23:00 -
[15]
I'm definitly not ocnvinced by those new cruisers atm. Maybe we'll find a way to use them with time. But atm I'm still wondering how they could survive a battle 
Galaga (Galaxian - XIF corp) And yes, Olyyy is on our KOS list so she enjoys stirring the "flames" ( 2004.05.25 ) |
olyyy
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Posted - 2004.09.02 22:23:00 -
[16]
I'm definitly not ocnvinced by those new cruisers atm. Maybe we'll find a way to use them with time. But atm I'm still wondering how they could survive a battle
Galaga (Galaxian - XIF corp) And yes, Olyyy is on our KOS list so she enjoys stirring the "flames" ( 2004.05.25 ) |
Caeli Maren
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Posted - 2004.09.02 23:41:00 -
[17]
I've run some calculations, and have concluded that 4 Medium Remote Armor Repairers are about the equivalent of 3 Large Accomodation Repairers in terms of armor repaired/second and capacitor used/sec.
The key to this are the skill bonuses. At max skills, flying an Oneiras you get a 75% reduced capacitor bonus on remote repairers (Logistics 5), as well as a 25% reduced capacitor bonus for Remote Armor Repairers 5. Also, assuming a remote armor repairer counts as a repair system, you get a 25% reduced duration from Repair Systems 5.
If my formulas are right, this gives 4x Med Remote Armor Repairers 1040 repaired in 6.4 sec for 594 capacitor. Thats opposed to 2160 repaired in 12 sec for 1200 capacitor that the Large Accommodation gives.
Also, because its an Oneiras, it has a Medium Repairer range of 37.5 km.
If course, it seems unlikely to me that an Oneiras could maintain even 4 Medium Remote Repairers (93 cap/sec).
(I hope my math is all correct)
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Caeli Maren
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Posted - 2004.09.02 23:41:00 -
[18]
I've run some calculations, and have concluded that 4 Medium Remote Armor Repairers are about the equivalent of 3 Large Accomodation Repairers in terms of armor repaired/second and capacitor used/sec.
The key to this are the skill bonuses. At max skills, flying an Oneiras you get a 75% reduced capacitor bonus on remote repairers (Logistics 5), as well as a 25% reduced capacitor bonus for Remote Armor Repairers 5. Also, assuming a remote armor repairer counts as a repair system, you get a 25% reduced duration from Repair Systems 5.
If my formulas are right, this gives 4x Med Remote Armor Repairers 1040 repaired in 6.4 sec for 594 capacitor. Thats opposed to 2160 repaired in 12 sec for 1200 capacitor that the Large Accommodation gives.
Also, because its an Oneiras, it has a Medium Repairer range of 37.5 km.
If course, it seems unlikely to me that an Oneiras could maintain even 4 Medium Remote Repairers (93 cap/sec).
(I hope my math is all correct)
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Boonaki
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Posted - 2004.09.02 23:52:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Boonaki on 02/09/2004 23:53:37
my only hope is that there will be some nice tech 2 cruisers. AS it stands now ANYONE with the skills to fly the tech 2 cruisers (and afford em) will haev a battleship or two. I don't think they fit into a fleet role, as 1 or two rounds of attacks from any level 2 battleship will kill one of these. I see them more for the level 4 and 5 agent missions and some of those cool lil NPC outpost raids. I thikn they released the supoprt cruisers now so people can train them up.
This is my view on future ship importance
Battleships - Battlecruisers (hopefully) - Catch Frigates/Intys - ECM cruisers - Destroyers - Assault Frigates - Bombers - Support cruisers. With Covert Ops ships in there depending on the battle.
Fear the Ibis of doom. |
Boonaki
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Posted - 2004.09.02 23:52:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Boonaki on 02/09/2004 23:53:37
my only hope is that there will be some nice tech 2 cruisers. AS it stands now ANYONE with the skills to fly the tech 2 cruisers (and afford em) will haev a battleship or two. I don't think they fit into a fleet role, as 1 or two rounds of attacks from any level 2 battleship will kill one of these. I see them more for the level 4 and 5 agent missions and some of those cool lil NPC outpost raids. I thikn they released the supoprt cruisers now so people can train them up.
This is my view on future ship importance
Battleships - Battlecruisers (hopefully) - Catch Frigates/Intys - ECM cruisers - Destroyers - Assault Frigates - Bombers - Support cruisers. With Covert Ops ships in there depending on the battle.
Fear the Ibis of doom. |
Shevar
|
Posted - 2004.09.03 00:05:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Caeli Maren
I've run some calculations, and have concluded that 4 Medium Remote Armor Repairers are about the equivalent of 3 Large Accomodation Repairers in terms of armor repaired/second and capacitor used/sec.
The key to this are the skill bonuses. At max skills, flying an Oneiras you get a 75% reduced capacitor bonus on remote repairers (Logistics 5), as well as a 25% reduced capacitor bonus for Remote Armor Repairers 5. Also, assuming a remote armor repairer counts as a repair system, you get a 25% reduced duration from Repair Systems 5.
If my formulas are right, this gives 4x Med Remote Armor Repairers 1040 repaired in 6.4 sec for 594 capacitor. Thats opposed to 2160 repaired in 12 sec for 1200 capacitor that the Large Accommodation gives.
Also, because its an Oneiras, it has a Medium Repairer range of 37.5 km.
If course, it seems unlikely to me that an Oneiras could maintain even 4 Medium Remote Repairers (93 cap/sec).
(I hope my math is all correct)
Well you're formulae just shows they suck :( (only thing which might save them would be if they would require like 20 components in total).
The point is a gheddon/poc/typhoon can do the same job if not better (at shorter ranges that is true, but then again it will be harder to figure out who is supporting so you might live a bit longer in actuall battle). And they are cheaper and they dont require as much training time.
I for one will definatly not train for em.
--------
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
|
Shevar
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Posted - 2004.09.03 00:05:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Caeli Maren
I've run some calculations, and have concluded that 4 Medium Remote Armor Repairers are about the equivalent of 3 Large Accomodation Repairers in terms of armor repaired/second and capacitor used/sec.
The key to this are the skill bonuses. At max skills, flying an Oneiras you get a 75% reduced capacitor bonus on remote repairers (Logistics 5), as well as a 25% reduced capacitor bonus for Remote Armor Repairers 5. Also, assuming a remote armor repairer counts as a repair system, you get a 25% reduced duration from Repair Systems 5.
If my formulas are right, this gives 4x Med Remote Armor Repairers 1040 repaired in 6.4 sec for 594 capacitor. Thats opposed to 2160 repaired in 12 sec for 1200 capacitor that the Large Accommodation gives.
Also, because its an Oneiras, it has a Medium Repairer range of 37.5 km.
If course, it seems unlikely to me that an Oneiras could maintain even 4 Medium Remote Repairers (93 cap/sec).
(I hope my math is all correct)
Well you're formulae just shows they suck :( (only thing which might save them would be if they would require like 20 components in total).
The point is a gheddon/poc/typhoon can do the same job if not better (at shorter ranges that is true, but then again it will be harder to figure out who is supporting so you might live a bit longer in actuall battle). And they are cheaper and they dont require as much training time.
I for one will definatly not train for em.
--------
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Caeli Maren
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Posted - 2004.09.03 00:21:00 -
[23]
Maybe they do suck, but anyone using a remote armor repairer on a battleship is insane! Those things have terrible repair/capacitor ratios without the Oneiras (or Guardian) bonus. Its 1:1 if you have Logistics 5, whereas the Large Accommodation has 1.8:1
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Caeli Maren
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Posted - 2004.09.03 00:21:00 -
[24]
Maybe they do suck, but anyone using a remote armor repairer on a battleship is insane! Those things have terrible repair/capacitor ratios without the Oneiras (or Guardian) bonus. Its 1:1 if you have Logistics 5, whereas the Large Accommodation has 1.8:1
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.09.03 00:38:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Caeli Maren
Maybe they do suck, but anyone using a remote armor repairer on a battleship is insane! Those things have terrible repair/capacitor ratios without the Oneiras (or Guardian) bonus. Its 1:1 if you have Logistics 5, whereas the Large Accommodation has 1.8:1
Hmmm I just assumed it would use the same idea as shield transporters compared to shield transporters. So that transerfering armor would be more cap efficient compared to repairing it yourself, just as shield transporters are more effecient then shield boosters.
Ahwell can't know it all im afraid  .
--------
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.09.03 00:38:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Caeli Maren
Maybe they do suck, but anyone using a remote armor repairer on a battleship is insane! Those things have terrible repair/capacitor ratios without the Oneiras (or Guardian) bonus. Its 1:1 if you have Logistics 5, whereas the Large Accommodation has 1.8:1
Hmmm I just assumed it would use the same idea as shield transporters compared to shield transporters. So that transerfering armor would be more cap efficient compared to repairing it yourself, just as shield transporters are more effecient then shield boosters.
Ahwell can't know it all im afraid .
--------
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Selim
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Posted - 2004.09.03 00:50:00 -
[27]
The problem is indeed that a battleship using all this will do it all much better and safer. And cheaper.
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Selim
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Posted - 2004.09.03 00:50:00 -
[28]
The problem is indeed that a battleship using all this will do it all much better and safer. And cheaper.
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.09.03 00:55:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Shevar on 03/09/2004 00:57:39
Originally by: Selim
The problem is indeed that a battleship using all this will do it all much better and safer. And cheaper.
Not to mention that while its better at it, offers more protection and is most likely cheaper to use it isn't much used nowadays (besides the annoying moments that you need to snipe down some frig 300km away with remote tracking links, but a scorp is far more logical to use for that).
--------
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
|
Shevar
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Posted - 2004.09.03 00:55:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Shevar on 03/09/2004 00:57:39
Originally by: Selim
The problem is indeed that a battleship using all this will do it all much better and safer. And cheaper.
Not to mention that while its better at it, offers more protection and is most likely cheaper to use it isn't much used nowadays (besides the annoying moments that you need to snipe down some frig 300km away with remote tracking links, but a scorp is far more logical to use for that).
--------
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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