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Tarm
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Posted - 2004.09.02 19:29:00 -
[1]
Now, before I get into the actual post let me just say that I obviously haven't tested the new ship(s) as they aren't available yet. This is solely my opinion based on the information gleaned from their descriptions.
Thread References:
Logistics Cruiser stats.
Remote Armor Repairer stats.
I'm just going to comment on the Guardian class cruiser as that is what I have trained for. With 6 hi slots and 6 medium repairers, the Guardian can produce 1,560 Armor Repaired every 8 seconds or 10,920 armor repaired per minute. That is 520 armor repaired on 3 separate battleships per 8 seconds at a distance of up to 50km away (from ship's bonus).
Now.....compare that to a dedicated repair Armageddon.
8x Large Remote Repairers
3x Cap Rechargers
2x Large Repairers, 3x Hardners, 3x Cap Relays
This setup allows the ship to produce 4,160 armor per 8 seconds, or 29,120 armor per minute while tanking enemy fire (something the Guardian will not be able to do effectively). This is 1,386 armor repaired on 3 separate battleships per 8 seconds at a distance of 7.5km away.
The only thing that makes the Guardian better is the range at which it can repair (often negated by interceptors or dual mwd cruisers) and the cap recharge rate (which can be negated by multiple cap relays on an Armageddon).
Why train 1.5 months for a ship that is immediately out-classed? I understand that the cost will be somewhat different (after the original tech 2 cost gouging subsides), convincing some to go with the Guardian, but what other reasons would you have for using one?
Comments and constructive ideas are welcome, flaming and immature ranting is not.
Proceed.
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Tarm
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Posted - 2004.09.02 19:29:00 -
[2]
Now, before I get into the actual post let me just say that I obviously haven't tested the new ship(s) as they aren't available yet. This is solely my opinion based on the information gleaned from their descriptions.
Thread References:
Logistics Cruiser stats.
Remote Armor Repairer stats.
I'm just going to comment on the Guardian class cruiser as that is what I have trained for. With 6 hi slots and 6 medium repairers, the Guardian can produce 1,560 Armor Repaired every 8 seconds or 10,920 armor repaired per minute. That is 520 armor repaired on 3 separate battleships per 8 seconds at a distance of up to 50km away (from ship's bonus).
Now.....compare that to a dedicated repair Armageddon.
8x Large Remote Repairers
3x Cap Rechargers
2x Large Repairers, 3x Hardners, 3x Cap Relays
This setup allows the ship to produce 4,160 armor per 8 seconds, or 29,120 armor per minute while tanking enemy fire (something the Guardian will not be able to do effectively). This is 1,386 armor repaired on 3 separate battleships per 8 seconds at a distance of 7.5km away.
The only thing that makes the Guardian better is the range at which it can repair (often negated by interceptors or dual mwd cruisers) and the cap recharge rate (which can be negated by multiple cap relays on an Armageddon).
Why train 1.5 months for a ship that is immediately out-classed? I understand that the cost will be somewhat different (after the original tech 2 cost gouging subsides), convincing some to go with the Guardian, but what other reasons would you have for using one?
Comments and constructive ideas are welcome, flaming and immature ranting is not.
Proceed.
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.09.02 20:29:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Tarm
Now, before I get into the actual post let me just say that I obviously haven't tested the new ship(s) as they aren't available yet. This is solely my opinion based on the information gleaned from their descriptions.
Thread References:
Logistics Cruiser stats.
Remote Armor Repairer stats.
I'm just going to comment on the Guardian class cruiser as that is what I have trained for. With 6 hi slots and 6 medium repairers, the Guardian can produce 1,560 Armor Repaired every 8 seconds or 10,920 armor repaired per minute. That is 520 armor repaired on 3 separate battleships per 8 seconds at a distance of up to 50km away (from ship's bonus).
Now.....compare that to a dedicated repair Armageddon.
8x Large Remote Repairers
3x Cap Rechargers
2x Large Repairers, 3x Hardners, 3x Cap Relays
This setup allows the ship to produce 4,160 armor per 8 seconds, or 29,120 armor per minute while tanking enemy fire (something the Guardian will not be able to do effectively). This is 1,386 armor repaired on 3 separate battleships per 8 seconds at a distance of 7.5km away.
The only thing that makes the Guardian better is the range at which it can repair (often negated by interceptors or dual mwd cruisers) and the cap recharge rate (which can be negated by multiple cap relays on an Armageddon).
Why train 1.5 months for a ship that is immediately out-classed? I understand that the cost will be somewhat different (after the original tech 2 cost gouging subsides), convincing some to go with the Guardian, but what other reasons would you have for using one?
Comments and constructive ideas are welcome, flaming and immature ranting is not.
Proceed.
Dont think you can run 8 remote armor reps, an apoc even got troubles running 8 medium shield transfers.
--------
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.09.02 20:29:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Tarm
Now, before I get into the actual post let me just say that I obviously haven't tested the new ship(s) as they aren't available yet. This is solely my opinion based on the information gleaned from their descriptions.
Thread References:
Logistics Cruiser stats.
Remote Armor Repairer stats.
I'm just going to comment on the Guardian class cruiser as that is what I have trained for. With 6 hi slots and 6 medium repairers, the Guardian can produce 1,560 Armor Repaired every 8 seconds or 10,920 armor repaired per minute. That is 520 armor repaired on 3 separate battleships per 8 seconds at a distance of up to 50km away (from ship's bonus).
Now.....compare that to a dedicated repair Armageddon.
8x Large Remote Repairers
3x Cap Rechargers
2x Large Repairers, 3x Hardners, 3x Cap Relays
This setup allows the ship to produce 4,160 armor per 8 seconds, or 29,120 armor per minute while tanking enemy fire (something the Guardian will not be able to do effectively). This is 1,386 armor repaired on 3 separate battleships per 8 seconds at a distance of 7.5km away.
The only thing that makes the Guardian better is the range at which it can repair (often negated by interceptors or dual mwd cruisers) and the cap recharge rate (which can be negated by multiple cap relays on an Armageddon).
Why train 1.5 months for a ship that is immediately out-classed? I understand that the cost will be somewhat different (after the original tech 2 cost gouging subsides), convincing some to go with the Guardian, but what other reasons would you have for using one?
Comments and constructive ideas are welcome, flaming and immature ranting is not.
Proceed.
Dont think you can run 8 remote armor reps, an apoc even got troubles running 8 medium shield transfers.
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-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Dao 2
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Posted - 2004.09.02 20:49:00 -
[5]
they have that bonus so that the range is extremely long ;p
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Dao 2
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Posted - 2004.09.02 20:49:00 -
[6]
they have that bonus so that the range is extremely long ;p
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Tarm
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Posted - 2004.09.02 20:56:00 -
[7]
Alright, so lets say I use them in bursts on the Armageddon with a cap injector. That would be feasible.
The range of the new cruisers for an remote armor repairer is approximately 25km (5km x 500%), not a huge distance.
I'm still fairly dissapointed in the new ships.
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Tarm
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Posted - 2004.09.02 20:56:00 -
[8]
Alright, so lets say I use them in bursts on the Armageddon with a cap injector. That would be feasible.
The range of the new cruisers for an remote armor repairer is approximately 25km (5km x 500%), not a huge distance.
I'm still fairly dissapointed in the new ships.
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Kel Shek
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Posted - 2004.09.02 21:50:00 -
[9]
isn't it a 750%, PER LEVEL bonus, at least on the Onieros?
I would imagine that could make it a VERY signifigant difference...
~~~~~
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And Heaven in a Wild Flower
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour
~~William Blake |
Kel Shek
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Posted - 2004.09.02 21:50:00 -
[10]
isn't it a 750%, PER LEVEL bonus, at least on the Onieros?
I would imagine that could make it a VERY signifigant difference...
~~~~~
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And Heaven in a Wild Flower
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour
~~William Blake |
Shevar
|
Posted - 2004.09.02 21:54:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Kel Shek
isn't it a 750%, PER LEVEL bonus, at least on the Onieros?
I would imagine that could make it a VERY signifigant difference...
Its a race bonus, so its set.
--------
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.09.02 21:54:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Kel Shek
isn't it a 750%, PER LEVEL bonus, at least on the Onieros?
I would imagine that could make it a VERY signifigant difference...
Its a race bonus, so its set.
--------
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
|
Selim
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Posted - 2004.09.02 22:09:00 -
[13]
the skill for tracking links needs to be changed to 5% boost to the effects, rather than 5% boost to duration.
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Selim
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Posted - 2004.09.02 22:09:00 -
[14]
the skill for tracking links needs to be changed to 5% boost to the effects, rather than 5% boost to duration.
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olyyy
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Posted - 2004.09.02 22:23:00 -
[15]
I'm definitly not ocnvinced by those new cruisers atm. Maybe we'll find a way to use them with time. But atm I'm still wondering how they could survive a battle 
Galaga (Galaxian - XIF corp) And yes, Olyyy is on our KOS list so she enjoys stirring the "flames" ( 2004.05.25 ) |
olyyy
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Posted - 2004.09.02 22:23:00 -
[16]
I'm definitly not ocnvinced by those new cruisers atm. Maybe we'll find a way to use them with time. But atm I'm still wondering how they could survive a battle
Galaga (Galaxian - XIF corp) And yes, Olyyy is on our KOS list so she enjoys stirring the "flames" ( 2004.05.25 ) |
Caeli Maren
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Posted - 2004.09.02 23:41:00 -
[17]
I've run some calculations, and have concluded that 4 Medium Remote Armor Repairers are about the equivalent of 3 Large Accomodation Repairers in terms of armor repaired/second and capacitor used/sec.
The key to this are the skill bonuses. At max skills, flying an Oneiras you get a 75% reduced capacitor bonus on remote repairers (Logistics 5), as well as a 25% reduced capacitor bonus for Remote Armor Repairers 5. Also, assuming a remote armor repairer counts as a repair system, you get a 25% reduced duration from Repair Systems 5.
If my formulas are right, this gives 4x Med Remote Armor Repairers 1040 repaired in 6.4 sec for 594 capacitor. Thats opposed to 2160 repaired in 12 sec for 1200 capacitor that the Large Accommodation gives.
Also, because its an Oneiras, it has a Medium Repairer range of 37.5 km.
If course, it seems unlikely to me that an Oneiras could maintain even 4 Medium Remote Repairers (93 cap/sec).
(I hope my math is all correct)
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Caeli Maren
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Posted - 2004.09.02 23:41:00 -
[18]
I've run some calculations, and have concluded that 4 Medium Remote Armor Repairers are about the equivalent of 3 Large Accomodation Repairers in terms of armor repaired/second and capacitor used/sec.
The key to this are the skill bonuses. At max skills, flying an Oneiras you get a 75% reduced capacitor bonus on remote repairers (Logistics 5), as well as a 25% reduced capacitor bonus for Remote Armor Repairers 5. Also, assuming a remote armor repairer counts as a repair system, you get a 25% reduced duration from Repair Systems 5.
If my formulas are right, this gives 4x Med Remote Armor Repairers 1040 repaired in 6.4 sec for 594 capacitor. Thats opposed to 2160 repaired in 12 sec for 1200 capacitor that the Large Accommodation gives.
Also, because its an Oneiras, it has a Medium Repairer range of 37.5 km.
If course, it seems unlikely to me that an Oneiras could maintain even 4 Medium Remote Repairers (93 cap/sec).
(I hope my math is all correct)
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Boonaki
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Posted - 2004.09.02 23:52:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Boonaki on 02/09/2004 23:53:37
my only hope is that there will be some nice tech 2 cruisers. AS it stands now ANYONE with the skills to fly the tech 2 cruisers (and afford em) will haev a battleship or two. I don't think they fit into a fleet role, as 1 or two rounds of attacks from any level 2 battleship will kill one of these. I see them more for the level 4 and 5 agent missions and some of those cool lil NPC outpost raids. I thikn they released the supoprt cruisers now so people can train them up.
This is my view on future ship importance
Battleships - Battlecruisers (hopefully) - Catch Frigates/Intys - ECM cruisers - Destroyers - Assault Frigates - Bombers - Support cruisers. With Covert Ops ships in there depending on the battle.
Fear the Ibis of doom. |
Boonaki
|
Posted - 2004.09.02 23:52:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Boonaki on 02/09/2004 23:53:37
my only hope is that there will be some nice tech 2 cruisers. AS it stands now ANYONE with the skills to fly the tech 2 cruisers (and afford em) will haev a battleship or two. I don't think they fit into a fleet role, as 1 or two rounds of attacks from any level 2 battleship will kill one of these. I see them more for the level 4 and 5 agent missions and some of those cool lil NPC outpost raids. I thikn they released the supoprt cruisers now so people can train them up.
This is my view on future ship importance
Battleships - Battlecruisers (hopefully) - Catch Frigates/Intys - ECM cruisers - Destroyers - Assault Frigates - Bombers - Support cruisers. With Covert Ops ships in there depending on the battle.
Fear the Ibis of doom. |
Shevar
|
Posted - 2004.09.03 00:05:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Caeli Maren
I've run some calculations, and have concluded that 4 Medium Remote Armor Repairers are about the equivalent of 3 Large Accomodation Repairers in terms of armor repaired/second and capacitor used/sec.
The key to this are the skill bonuses. At max skills, flying an Oneiras you get a 75% reduced capacitor bonus on remote repairers (Logistics 5), as well as a 25% reduced capacitor bonus for Remote Armor Repairers 5. Also, assuming a remote armor repairer counts as a repair system, you get a 25% reduced duration from Repair Systems 5.
If my formulas are right, this gives 4x Med Remote Armor Repairers 1040 repaired in 6.4 sec for 594 capacitor. Thats opposed to 2160 repaired in 12 sec for 1200 capacitor that the Large Accommodation gives.
Also, because its an Oneiras, it has a Medium Repairer range of 37.5 km.
If course, it seems unlikely to me that an Oneiras could maintain even 4 Medium Remote Repairers (93 cap/sec).
(I hope my math is all correct)
Well you're formulae just shows they suck :( (only thing which might save them would be if they would require like 20 components in total).
The point is a gheddon/poc/typhoon can do the same job if not better (at shorter ranges that is true, but then again it will be harder to figure out who is supporting so you might live a bit longer in actuall battle). And they are cheaper and they dont require as much training time.
I for one will definatly not train for em.
--------
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
|
Shevar
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Posted - 2004.09.03 00:05:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Caeli Maren
I've run some calculations, and have concluded that 4 Medium Remote Armor Repairers are about the equivalent of 3 Large Accomodation Repairers in terms of armor repaired/second and capacitor used/sec.
The key to this are the skill bonuses. At max skills, flying an Oneiras you get a 75% reduced capacitor bonus on remote repairers (Logistics 5), as well as a 25% reduced capacitor bonus for Remote Armor Repairers 5. Also, assuming a remote armor repairer counts as a repair system, you get a 25% reduced duration from Repair Systems 5.
If my formulas are right, this gives 4x Med Remote Armor Repairers 1040 repaired in 6.4 sec for 594 capacitor. Thats opposed to 2160 repaired in 12 sec for 1200 capacitor that the Large Accommodation gives.
Also, because its an Oneiras, it has a Medium Repairer range of 37.5 km.
If course, it seems unlikely to me that an Oneiras could maintain even 4 Medium Remote Repairers (93 cap/sec).
(I hope my math is all correct)
Well you're formulae just shows they suck :( (only thing which might save them would be if they would require like 20 components in total).
The point is a gheddon/poc/typhoon can do the same job if not better (at shorter ranges that is true, but then again it will be harder to figure out who is supporting so you might live a bit longer in actuall battle). And they are cheaper and they dont require as much training time.
I for one will definatly not train for em.
--------
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Caeli Maren
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Posted - 2004.09.03 00:21:00 -
[23]
Maybe they do suck, but anyone using a remote armor repairer on a battleship is insane! Those things have terrible repair/capacitor ratios without the Oneiras (or Guardian) bonus. Its 1:1 if you have Logistics 5, whereas the Large Accommodation has 1.8:1
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Caeli Maren
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Posted - 2004.09.03 00:21:00 -
[24]
Maybe they do suck, but anyone using a remote armor repairer on a battleship is insane! Those things have terrible repair/capacitor ratios without the Oneiras (or Guardian) bonus. Its 1:1 if you have Logistics 5, whereas the Large Accommodation has 1.8:1
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.09.03 00:38:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Caeli Maren
Maybe they do suck, but anyone using a remote armor repairer on a battleship is insane! Those things have terrible repair/capacitor ratios without the Oneiras (or Guardian) bonus. Its 1:1 if you have Logistics 5, whereas the Large Accommodation has 1.8:1
Hmmm I just assumed it would use the same idea as shield transporters compared to shield transporters. So that transerfering armor would be more cap efficient compared to repairing it yourself, just as shield transporters are more effecient then shield boosters.
Ahwell can't know it all im afraid  .
--------
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.09.03 00:38:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Caeli Maren
Maybe they do suck, but anyone using a remote armor repairer on a battleship is insane! Those things have terrible repair/capacitor ratios without the Oneiras (or Guardian) bonus. Its 1:1 if you have Logistics 5, whereas the Large Accommodation has 1.8:1
Hmmm I just assumed it would use the same idea as shield transporters compared to shield transporters. So that transerfering armor would be more cap efficient compared to repairing it yourself, just as shield transporters are more effecient then shield boosters.
Ahwell can't know it all im afraid .
--------
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Selim
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Posted - 2004.09.03 00:50:00 -
[27]
The problem is indeed that a battleship using all this will do it all much better and safer. And cheaper.
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Selim
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Posted - 2004.09.03 00:50:00 -
[28]
The problem is indeed that a battleship using all this will do it all much better and safer. And cheaper.
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.09.03 00:55:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Shevar on 03/09/2004 00:57:39
Originally by: Selim
The problem is indeed that a battleship using all this will do it all much better and safer. And cheaper.
Not to mention that while its better at it, offers more protection and is most likely cheaper to use it isn't much used nowadays (besides the annoying moments that you need to snipe down some frig 300km away with remote tracking links, but a scorp is far more logical to use for that).
--------
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.09.03 00:55:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Shevar on 03/09/2004 00:57:39
Originally by: Selim
The problem is indeed that a battleship using all this will do it all much better and safer. And cheaper.
Not to mention that while its better at it, offers more protection and is most likely cheaper to use it isn't much used nowadays (besides the annoying moments that you need to snipe down some frig 300km away with remote tracking links, but a scorp is far more logical to use for that).
--------
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
|
Evona Moucrou
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Posted - 2004.09.03 08:51:00 -
[31]
I think the advantage(s) of the support cruisers might be ..
- high cap for a crusier, (1,000 cap with 200 seconds regeneration = 5 cps)
- low signature (~100)
- better starting speed than a battleship ~100 m/s (though in some cases high mass 10k tons to 16k tons)
- nice scan resolution
Of course if you put a MWD on the signature advantage is partially lost (as is some of the cap), but maybe it can be run indefinitely. Personally I do not like MWDs anyways, but they are so useful.
Coulda use a support cruiser to sport a lot of medium cap drainers (nos). Who said you have to use them to repair.
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Evona Moucrou
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Posted - 2004.09.03 08:51:00 -
[32]
I think the advantage(s) of the support cruisers might be ..
- high cap for a crusier, (1,000 cap with 200 seconds regeneration = 5 cps)
- low signature (~100)
- better starting speed than a battleship ~100 m/s (though in some cases high mass 10k tons to 16k tons)
- nice scan resolution
Of course if you put a MWD on the signature advantage is partially lost (as is some of the cap), but maybe it can be run indefinitely. Personally I do not like MWDs anyways, but they are so useful.
Coulda use a support cruiser to sport a lot of medium cap drainers (nos). Who said you have to use them to repair.
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Shevar
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Posted - 2004.09.03 13:52:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Evona Moucrou
I think the advantage(s) of the support cruisers might be ..
- high cap for a crusier, (1,000 cap with 200 seconds regeneration = 5 cps)
- low signature (~100)
- better starting speed than a battleship ~100 m/s (though in some cases high mass 10k tons to 16k tons)
- nice scan resolution
Of course if you put a MWD on the signature advantage is partially lost (as is some of the cap), but maybe it can be run indefinitely. Personally I do not like MWDs anyways, but they are so useful.
Coulda use a support cruiser to sport a lot of medium cap drainers (nos). Who said you have to use them to repair.
Nosses are only usefull gaining more cap to use or against alot smaller opponents (ie a bs nos against a frig insta drains the frig). On a support cruiser you can't fit large ones because of the pg reqs, an apoc will be so much better in that regard that it isnt even funny.
Also who really cares about the sig radius? The moment a support cruiser would be spotted it would get targetted and blown to pieces in a matter of seconds. A battleship is more usefull in this aspect as well because it is likely that it will survive slightly longer (perhaps 1 or 2 cycles more =).
Speed is also a rather useless stat, its slower then an intie that is the only thing that does matter. In battle situations (ie attacking or defending a region) you will have bookmarks to pretty much all somewhat important places, and in battle it would only matter if you could outrun inties or not. Because if you can't you will get webbed and scrambled (and thus be a slow poke anyways).
The only way support cruisers can be even somewhat viable would be if:
-They would be cheap (no way this will happen, perhaps after shiva with production of components but then the limited ammount of bpos would still drive the price up).
-They would give a big bonus to the ammount they repair/shieldboost/transfer energy. These things can only use cruiser sized equipment, and for the skill reqs they should have abonus if they are to play a role in bs fleet combat.
--------
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
|
Shevar
|
Posted - 2004.09.03 13:52:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Evona Moucrou
I think the advantage(s) of the support cruisers might be ..
- high cap for a crusier, (1,000 cap with 200 seconds regeneration = 5 cps)
- low signature (~100)
- better starting speed than a battleship ~100 m/s (though in some cases high mass 10k tons to 16k tons)
- nice scan resolution
Of course if you put a MWD on the signature advantage is partially lost (as is some of the cap), but maybe it can be run indefinitely. Personally I do not like MWDs anyways, but they are so useful.
Coulda use a support cruiser to sport a lot of medium cap drainers (nos). Who said you have to use them to repair.
Nosses are only usefull gaining more cap to use or against alot smaller opponents (ie a bs nos against a frig insta drains the frig). On a support cruiser you can't fit large ones because of the pg reqs, an apoc will be so much better in that regard that it isnt even funny.
Also who really cares about the sig radius? The moment a support cruiser would be spotted it would get targetted and blown to pieces in a matter of seconds. A battleship is more usefull in this aspect as well because it is likely that it will survive slightly longer (perhaps 1 or 2 cycles more =).
Speed is also a rather useless stat, its slower then an intie that is the only thing that does matter. In battle situations (ie attacking or defending a region) you will have bookmarks to pretty much all somewhat important places, and in battle it would only matter if you could outrun inties or not. Because if you can't you will get webbed and scrambled (and thus be a slow poke anyways).
The only way support cruisers can be even somewhat viable would be if:
-They would be cheap (no way this will happen, perhaps after shiva with production of components but then the limited ammount of bpos would still drive the price up).
-They would give a big bonus to the ammount they repair/shieldboost/transfer energy. These things can only use cruiser sized equipment, and for the skill reqs they should have abonus if they are to play a role in bs fleet combat.
--------
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
|
Tarm
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Posted - 2004.09.03 14:49:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Shevar
Nosses are only usefull gaining more cap to use or against alot smaller opponents (ie a bs nos against a frig insta drains the frig). On a support cruiser you can't fit large ones because of the pg reqs, an apoc will be so much better in that regard that it isnt even funny.
Also who really cares about the sig radius? The moment a support cruiser would be spotted it would get targetted and blown to pieces in a matter of seconds. A battleship is more usefull in this aspect as well because it is likely that it will survive slightly longer (perhaps 1 or 2 cycles more =).
Speed is also a rather useless stat, its slower then an intie that is the only thing that does matter. In battle situations (ie attacking or defending a region) you will have bookmarks to pretty much all somewhat important places, and in battle it would only matter if you could outrun inties or not. Because if you can't you will get webbed and scrambled (and thus be a slow poke anyways).
The only way support cruisers can be even somewhat viable would be if:
-They would be cheap (no way this will happen, perhaps after shiva with production of components but then the limited ammount of bpos would still drive the price up).
-They would give a big bonus to the ammount they repair/shieldboost/transfer energy. These things can only use cruiser sized equipment, and for the skill reqs they should have abonus if they are to play a role in bs fleet combat.
I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking this way. It seems to me that whatever this support cruiser can do, a battleship can do better.
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Tarm
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Posted - 2004.09.03 14:49:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Shevar
Nosses are only usefull gaining more cap to use or against alot smaller opponents (ie a bs nos against a frig insta drains the frig). On a support cruiser you can't fit large ones because of the pg reqs, an apoc will be so much better in that regard that it isnt even funny.
Also who really cares about the sig radius? The moment a support cruiser would be spotted it would get targetted and blown to pieces in a matter of seconds. A battleship is more usefull in this aspect as well because it is likely that it will survive slightly longer (perhaps 1 or 2 cycles more =).
Speed is also a rather useless stat, its slower then an intie that is the only thing that does matter. In battle situations (ie attacking or defending a region) you will have bookmarks to pretty much all somewhat important places, and in battle it would only matter if you could outrun inties or not. Because if you can't you will get webbed and scrambled (and thus be a slow poke anyways).
The only way support cruisers can be even somewhat viable would be if:
-They would be cheap (no way this will happen, perhaps after shiva with production of components but then the limited ammount of bpos would still drive the price up).
-They would give a big bonus to the ammount they repair/shieldboost/transfer energy. These things can only use cruiser sized equipment, and for the skill reqs they should have abonus if they are to play a role in bs fleet combat.
I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking this way. It seems to me that whatever this support cruiser can do, a battleship can do better.
-------------------
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Veneth
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Posted - 2004.09.03 15:11:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Veneth on 03/09/2004 15:13:18
A Battleship may do it better but hopefully people will be smart and sell these things for 20 mil. giving you a possible reason to buy one instead of a 100 mil BS to do the same task..
But than again.. who sells anything for a reasonable price..
And I'm not sure if it's people buying all the skills or not but in amarr space 25 mil for the skill?? wtf?
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Veneth
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Posted - 2004.09.03 15:11:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Veneth on 03/09/2004 15:13:18
A Battleship may do it better but hopefully people will be smart and sell these things for 20 mil. giving you a possible reason to buy one instead of a 100 mil BS to do the same task..
But than again.. who sells anything for a reasonable price..
And I'm not sure if it's people buying all the skills or not but in amarr space 25 mil for the skill?? wtf?
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Oron
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Posted - 2004.09.03 15:33:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Oron on 03/09/2004 15:37:29
First: The power of the logistics are the range. Secound: They are tactical vessles, so only calculating one of them do not fit.
Think about 3 logistics 50km behind the your longe range Battleships, and think about 1 or 2 more logistic 50km behind the first 3.
If your long Range BS are placed well your enemy long range forces can not shoot at the logistics from thier palce, while the tanking ability of your BS are increased.
Sure they will be some fast frigs & cruisers send out to destroy the logistics, but becouse the first row get healt by the secound its not realy easy. Especialy if you give some esorts to the logistics.
The enemy longe range BSs cannot get close enoth to the logistics without run in your close range BSs.
Well its all theorie  But if you more and more logitics you will be able to establish a repairing network and your enemy do not know with logistic must shoot first to break the chains of repairing
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Oron
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Posted - 2004.09.03 15:33:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Oron on 03/09/2004 15:37:29
First: The power of the logistics are the range. Secound: They are tactical vessles, so only calculating one of them do not fit.
Think about 3 logistics 50km behind the your longe range Battleships, and think about 1 or 2 more logistic 50km behind the first 3.
If your long Range BS are placed well your enemy long range forces can not shoot at the logistics from thier palce, while the tanking ability of your BS are increased.
Sure they will be some fast frigs & cruisers send out to destroy the logistics, but becouse the first row get healt by the secound its not realy easy. Especialy if you give some esorts to the logistics.
The enemy longe range BSs cannot get close enoth to the logistics without run in your close range BSs.
Well its all theorie But if you more and more logitics you will be able to establish a repairing network and your enemy do not know with logistic must shoot first to break the chains of repairing
|
Nafri
|
Posted - 2004.09.20 23:13:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Oron
Edited by: Oron on 03/09/2004 15:37:29
First: The power of the logistics are the range. Secound: They are tactical vessles, so only calculating one of them do not fit.
Think about 3 logistics 50km behind the your longe range Battleships, and think about 1 or 2 more logistic 50km behind the first 3.
If your long Range BS are placed well your enemy long range forces can not shoot at the logistics from thier palce, while the tanking ability of your BS are increased.
Sure they will be some fast frigs & cruisers send out to destroy the logistics, but becouse the first row get healt by the secound its not realy easy. Especialy if you give some esorts to the logistics.
The enemy longe range BSs cannot get close enoth to the logistics without run in your close range BSs.
Well its all theorie But if you more and more logitics you will be able to establish a repairing network and your enemy do not know with logistic must shoot first to break the chains of repairing
problems:
- logistics repair to less for the cap, as stated above
- actual you dont shoot long range BS, you just jamm them, take out the others, and then you can take care of the long range ships
- interceptors will just web your logistics, gang warp in the middle of them, all are dead
- yeah interceptors need only a few seconds for the 150km to fly
- in fleet battles yout too laggy to do some organized stuff most of the time
Wanna fly with me?
|
Nafri
|
Posted - 2004.09.20 23:13:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Oron
Edited by: Oron on 03/09/2004 15:37:29
First: The power of the logistics are the range. Secound: They are tactical vessles, so only calculating one of them do not fit.
Think about 3 logistics 50km behind the your longe range Battleships, and think about 1 or 2 more logistic 50km behind the first 3.
If your long Range BS are placed well your enemy long range forces can not shoot at the logistics from thier palce, while the tanking ability of your BS are increased.
Sure they will be some fast frigs & cruisers send out to destroy the logistics, but becouse the first row get healt by the secound its not realy easy. Especialy if you give some esorts to the logistics.
The enemy longe range BSs cannot get close enoth to the logistics without run in your close range BSs.
Well its all theorie But if you more and more logitics you will be able to establish a repairing network and your enemy do not know with logistic must shoot first to break the chains of repairing
problems:
- logistics repair to less for the cap, as stated above
- actual you dont shoot long range BS, you just jamm them, take out the others, and then you can take care of the long range ships
- interceptors will just web your logistics, gang warp in the middle of them, all are dead
- yeah interceptors need only a few seconds for the 150km to fly
- in fleet battles yout too laggy to do some organized stuff most of the time
Wanna fly with me?
|
Egon Almighty
|
Posted - 2004.09.21 00:03:00 -
[43]
An issue with the logistic cruisers are their low sensor strength, ranging from 5(scim) to 10(basi) they are very easy to jam away from battle, since one benefit from using theese in battle is its ability to cycle its repair on whoever gets to tank.
I don't think they are very bad, just the range thats a bit low (named shield transporter on a basilisk reaches a max of 45km)
If you can figure out a way to keep theese babys alive in a battle you'll have a big advantage over your enemy.
if i calculated correctly, the Basilisk for example can give 230,4 shield per sec forever. |
Egon Almighty
|
Posted - 2004.09.21 00:03:00 -
[44]
An issue with the logistic cruisers are their low sensor strength, ranging from 5(scim) to 10(basi) they are very easy to jam away from battle, since one benefit from using theese in battle is its ability to cycle its repair on whoever gets to tank.
I don't think they are very bad, just the range thats a bit low (named shield transporter on a basilisk reaches a max of 45km)
If you can figure out a way to keep theese babys alive in a battle you'll have a big advantage over your enemy.
if i calculated correctly, the Basilisk for example can give 230,4 shield per sec forever. |
Murple
|
Posted - 2004.09.21 00:22:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Veneth
Edited by: Veneth on 03/09/2004 15:13:18
A Battleship may do it better but hopefully people will be smart and sell these things for 20 mil. giving you a possible reason to buy one instead of a 100 mil BS to do the same task..
But than again.. who sells anything for a reasonable price..
And I'm not sure if it's people buying all the skills or not but in amarr space 25 mil for the skill?? wtf?
Well, considering that it takes 37-41 million to build one, it takes hours to gather all the components at a reasonable price. The cost of factories and labs. The cost of the 37 million isk Cruiser construction skill you need just to build the dang thing. This along all the time skills and isk and luck it took to win the bpo, don't expect any charity.
Who would want to make over 20 mil negative profit for selling these things? 
Gotta love my city-sized roid vacuum cleaner! |
Murple
|
Posted - 2004.09.21 00:22:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Veneth
Edited by: Veneth on 03/09/2004 15:13:18
A Battleship may do it better but hopefully people will be smart and sell these things for 20 mil. giving you a possible reason to buy one instead of a 100 mil BS to do the same task..
But than again.. who sells anything for a reasonable price..
And I'm not sure if it's people buying all the skills or not but in amarr space 25 mil for the skill?? wtf?
Well, considering that it takes 37-41 million to build one, it takes hours to gather all the components at a reasonable price. The cost of factories and labs. The cost of the 37 million isk Cruiser construction skill you need just to build the dang thing. This along all the time skills and isk and luck it took to win the bpo, don't expect any charity.
Who would want to make over 20 mil negative profit for selling these things?
Gotta love my city-sized roid vacuum cleaner! |
Matrix Aran
|
Posted - 2004.09.21 10:50:00 -
[47]
Now forgive me if there is something incerdible stupid that I have overlooked, I just got outta bed and thinking is not my strong point atm. But what if you had to of these cruisers, each repairing a gankageddon type ship and repairing eachother at the same time. Also consider that after Nov. 3 prices on T2 components will plumet as people setup POS to produce the components for these cruisers cheaply. Then they will become cheap and expendable.
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Matrix Aran
|
Posted - 2004.09.21 10:50:00 -
[48]
Now forgive me if there is something incerdible stupid that I have overlooked, I just got outta bed and thinking is not my strong point atm. But what if you had to of these cruisers, each repairing a gankageddon type ship and repairing eachother at the same time. Also consider that after Nov. 3 prices on T2 components will plumet as people setup POS to produce the components for these cruisers cheaply. Then they will become cheap and expendable.
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Jacque Custeau
|
Posted - 2004.09.21 11:17:00 -
[49]
Now here is another way of looking at it. Even if they increase the range bonus for armor repairing, will it out-range the sensors? these cruisers only have one med slot, and one sensor booster may not cut it.
For the repair cruiser to be out of harm's way while supporting, it would need to be 100+km away. But that still poses the question, should they be able to be "out of harms way"? |
Jacque Custeau
|
Posted - 2004.09.21 11:17:00 -
[50]
Now here is another way of looking at it. Even if they increase the range bonus for armor repairing, will it out-range the sensors? these cruisers only have one med slot, and one sensor booster may not cut it.
For the repair cruiser to be out of harm's way while supporting, it would need to be 100+km away. But that still poses the question, should they be able to be "out of harms way"? |
Morpheus Shadowfire
|
Posted - 2004.09.22 20:26:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Oron
Edited by: Oron on 03/09/2004 15:37:29
First: The power of the logistics are the range. Secound: They are tactical vessles, so only calculating one of them do not fit.
Think about 3 logistics 50km behind the your longe range Battleships, and think about 1 or 2 more logistic 50km behind the first 3.
If your long Range BS are placed well your enemy long range forces can not shoot at the logistics from thier palce, while the tanking ability of your BS are increased.
Sure they will be some fast frigs & cruisers send out to destroy the logistics, but becouse the first row get healt by the secound its not realy easy. Especialy if you give some esorts to the logistics.
The enemy longe range BSs cannot get close enoth to the logistics without run in your close range BSs.
Well its all theorie But if you more and more logitics you will be able to establish a repairing network and your enemy do not know with logistic must shoot first to break the chains of repairing
so... waste half a dozen people on non-combat ships that are extremely vunerable to enemy frigs/intys
I'm glad I read this thread. Unless something is done, logistic cruisers seem worthless (unless training time/cost is MUCH less than what they are now).
|
Morpheus Shadowfire
|
Posted - 2004.09.22 20:26:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Oron
Edited by: Oron on 03/09/2004 15:37:29
First: The power of the logistics are the range. Secound: They are tactical vessles, so only calculating one of them do not fit.
Think about 3 logistics 50km behind the your longe range Battleships, and think about 1 or 2 more logistic 50km behind the first 3.
If your long Range BS are placed well your enemy long range forces can not shoot at the logistics from thier palce, while the tanking ability of your BS are increased.
Sure they will be some fast frigs & cruisers send out to destroy the logistics, but becouse the first row get healt by the secound its not realy easy. Especialy if you give some esorts to the logistics.
The enemy longe range BSs cannot get close enoth to the logistics without run in your close range BSs.
Well its all theorie But if you more and more logitics you will be able to establish a repairing network and your enemy do not know with logistic must shoot first to break the chains of repairing
so... waste half a dozen people on non-combat ships that are extremely vunerable to enemy frigs/intys
I'm glad I read this thread. Unless something is done, logistic cruisers seem worthless (unless training time/cost is MUCH less than what they are now).
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Cell Satimo
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Posted - 2004.09.23 16:36:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Cell Satimo on 23/09/2004 16:38:49
Originally by: Jacque Custeau
For the repair cruiser to be out of harm's way while supporting, it would need to be 100+km away. But that still poses the question, should they be able to be "out of harms way"?
At a gate camp, you could get combat at 15km range, max support cruiser at 60km range (for some races). So 75km range, close maybe.
|
Join eve-webring.com to promote your site. |
Cell Satimo
|
Posted - 2004.09.23 16:36:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Cell Satimo on 23/09/2004 16:38:49
Originally by: Jacque Custeau
For the repair cruiser to be out of harm's way while supporting, it would need to be 100+km away. But that still poses the question, should they be able to be "out of harms way"?
At a gate camp, you could get combat at 15km range, max support cruiser at 60km range (for some races). So 75km range, close maybe.
|
Join eve-webring.com to promote your site. |
Jane Vladmir
|
Posted - 2004.09.23 19:42:00 -
[55]
thing is.. they'll get popped in a second if they get in a fight
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Jane Vladmir
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Posted - 2004.09.23 19:42:00 -
[56]
thing is.. they'll get popped in a second if they get in a fight
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Larno
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Posted - 2004.09.23 20:46:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Larno on 23/09/2004 20:50:39
Okay, try this for a support setup, where 'x' is any whole number.
x * Apoc with the setup:
8 * Medium s95a Partial Shield Transporter = 240 cap per sec/307.2 shield repair per sec
1 * Active EM Hardener
1 * Active Thermal Hardener
1 * Active Kinetic Hardener
1 * Cap Recharger II
3 * Co-Processor II
4 * Cap Power Relay
Replace co processor/shield transfer for CPR/weapons as needed from skills.
2x * Arma with the setup:
7 * Mega Pulse Laser
1 * Active EM Hardener
1 * Active Thermal Hardener
1 * Active Kinetic Hardener
7 * Heat Sink II
1 * Co Processor II
So, for example, you could have 5 Apocs and 10 Armas. That mean's you can heal at 1536 HP PER SECOND. Someone tell me that 5 support cruisers will be able to heal faster than that? Oh wait, they can't... And can they have shield hardeners... No ? And how much shield do they have? 1/4 of an Apoc? Wonderful. Oh, did I mention they cost 50mil, which you can't insure to the full value, you have to pay 25mil for the skill book and waste 60 days training? You can have BS 5 in that time and make your Apoc/Arma even better.
Support ships should transfer slave girls.... make your crew more... energzied and... efficient.
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Larno
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Posted - 2004.09.23 20:46:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Larno on 23/09/2004 20:50:39
Okay, try this for a support setup, where 'x' is any whole number.
x * Apoc with the setup:
8 * Medium s95a Partial Shield Transporter = 240 cap per sec/307.2 shield repair per sec
1 * Active EM Hardener
1 * Active Thermal Hardener
1 * Active Kinetic Hardener
1 * Cap Recharger II
3 * Co-Processor II
4 * Cap Power Relay
Replace co processor/shield transfer for CPR/weapons as needed from skills.
2x * Arma with the setup:
7 * Mega Pulse Laser
1 * Active EM Hardener
1 * Active Thermal Hardener
1 * Active Kinetic Hardener
7 * Heat Sink II
1 * Co Processor II
So, for example, you could have 5 Apocs and 10 Armas. That mean's you can heal at 1536 HP PER SECOND. Someone tell me that 5 support cruisers will be able to heal faster than that? Oh wait, they can't... And can they have shield hardeners... No ? And how much shield do they have? 1/4 of an Apoc? Wonderful. Oh, did I mention they cost 50mil, which you can't insure to the full value, you have to pay 25mil for the skill book and waste 60 days training? You can have BS 5 in that time and make your Apoc/Arma even better.
Support ships should transfer slave girls.... make your crew more... energzied and... efficient.
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