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The Warc Declaration is a failed mechanism.

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FlyinS Caldari Planetary Industry and Trade Organization	Posted - 2009.05.06 17:03:00 - [31] Originally by: Sorted If you fail to war dodge your a feaking idiot. Because every new player would instinctively and magically know what to do.
Hysteresis	Posted - 2009.05.06 17:16:00 - [32] While we are on for fixing wardecs... 1. Don't allow corp hopping for AT LEAST a week. Keep them locked into the corp for a minimum of a week (initial wardec length) before they can leave. 2. Make it so that if you are neutral to a person at war and remote help them (rep, sensor, etc) they become concorded. Neutral remote repping is funny at best when you see 1 wt and 15 domi's sitting next to him in noob corps. Yes, they can be shot at after they rep, but since you can insta dock/gate with just remote helping it doesn't help at all. (high-sec only, low/null is fine as everyone is a target \0/)(only with wars though, regular agression any other time) 3. Since Ever is all about profit, make it ACTUALLY cost something for a corp-corp war. 2 Mil can be made in less than 1 minute.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.06 17:49:00 - [33] Quote: If you fail to war dodge your a feaking idiot. So what you would like to tell everyone is to corp hope when wardecced? Corp hopping should be dealt with, but not before pay to grief is dealth with --------------------------------------------- Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
Tekutep	Posted - 2009.05.06 18:39:00 - [34] Edited by: Tekutep on 06/05/2009 18:39:46 I was in a corp that had about 30 members of which about 20 were newer and less than 5 million SP, and we got wardec'd. After one week, they waited a couple of days then wardec's again. And again. And again. And again. And again. A total of 6 weeks of wardec's. By the time it was over, about 5 people had quit the corp to find other places, and about 6 had cancelled their accounts and quit the game. There's multiple ways to fix a problem like this quite easily such as wardec immunity for a limited time, etc. I find it rather surprising that a game mechanic like this exists and has existed for a while now. Makes me curious how many other scenarios like this have played out and how many people have quit within their first couple of weeks because of it.
Carnelian X	Posted - 2009.05.06 18:45:00 - [35] Edited by: Carnelian X on 06/05/2009 18:46:20 Edited by: Carnelian X on 06/05/2009 18:45:26 Originally by: Tekutep Makes me curious how many other scenarios like this have played out and how many people have quit within their first couple of weeks because of it. I wonder how many people have got ganked in low sec and quit withing their first couple of weeks because of it? That needs fixing to. Or how many people couldn't get into a BS in their first couple of weeks and left because of that. Lets fix this. Or how many people have been in a 0.0 alliance and lost their space so couldnt rat anymore. Need to have 0.0 space for everyone. Or how many people found they kept getting undercut in the market by someone who produced in bulk and could therefore sell for cheaper. That needs to be fixed! etcetcetc Moral of story - think before posting.... you that is not me. OMG ALL THESE PEOPLE ARE QUITTING!!!!!!!!!! Dont play in a sandbox if your allergic to sand!
Agent Known Apotheosis of Virtue	Posted - 2009.05.06 18:53:00 - [36] I'd love to see a change in the current mechanic to be honest. My old corp formed an alliance so they'd avoid being wardecced all the time (which was weekly) and bring the costs up into the billion range. A possible fix would be an SP limit; if your own average SP is much higher than the corp you want to war dec, you cannot wardec them. This would likely be tweaked so people can't flood a corp with alts, etc...maybe the top 50% SP characters in the corp. The OP has a point, but made it a whine instead of a constructive post. This pay to grief mechanic is stupid; after all, REAL wars occur because of territorial gain or to cripple competition and not to grief, right? puts on flame suit
Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy SCUM.	Posted - 2009.05.06 19:01:00 - [37] Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 06/05/2009 19:01:58 I'd have probably quit this game in 2007 if there were no high sec wars. And yes, I was always on the receiving end. Wars draw a good corp together, not break it apart. Wars annihilate the usual mode of gameplay for corp members and forces them to either fight back or give up. Contrary to what an annoyingly large amount of people say, forcing your will on people and disrupting their preferred method of playing the game have been absolutely central qualities of Eve from day one onwards. Wars may need some alterations, fine. There are some ways that they could actually be made better, while simultaneously ensuring there's more to them than pay-to-grief. CCP has said they're working on this. But the fact that the war dec mechanic exists in the first place shows the clear intent of CCP that the only way you can be truly safe in this game is to stay in an NPC corp and never undock. Originally by: Ghoest 2 Actually trouble makers just leave and reform corps as soon as they are War Decced. I'm convinced that the only reason this isn't considered an exploit is because CCP has some plans in store for altering war dec mechanics and can't be arsed to bother punishing ****ers. If you don't want to fight a war, get back in an NPC corporation.
Taedrin Gallente Golden Mechanization Protectorate	Posted - 2009.05.06 19:13:00 - [38] reading comprehension ftl... People, he's not complaining that high sec wars are bad. He's complaining about two things: a) High sec wars as a means of griefing, but not for profit or control of resources b) Corp hopping as a means of evading war decs. It is obvious that the OP is NOT complaining about: a) war deccing a high sec mission running corp b) war deccing a mining corp c) war deccing a manufacturing corp What he IS complaining about is when a 200 man corp war decs a 10 man corp which has no appreciable assets with which to fight back. Granted, I can't see what the OP wants changed, since we SHOULD be allowed to war dec a 3 man high sec POS corp.
Andrest Disch Amarr Letiferi Praedones	Posted - 2009.05.06 19:18:00 - [39] Originally by: Leon Caedo I agree that this is an issue.. But, just to play the devil's advocate: Link or it didn't happen. Literally the first google result; Originally by: CCP 0017 Empire War Dec Mechanics Noah (CCP) believes that the current wardec system amounts to a pay-to-grief system, and that CCP is interested in making war declarations deeper by adding mechanics such as victory conditions that would eventually end wars. Valentijn (CSM Dierdra Vaal) commented that under the current system, the defender has no control over the war and the attacker can keep it up indefinitely as long as they keep paying the bills. He also observed that there currently is no determined end goal to the war itself. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=819225
Sol'Kanar SRIUS BISNIS	Posted - 2009.05.06 19:18:00 - [40] War decs are fine. Really, concord should just be removed from the game entirely.

Leon Caedo	Posted - 2009.05.06 19:49:00 - [41] Originally by: Sun Clausewitz Or they could always do something dramatic like I don't know, fight back? You know those High Slots and F1~F8 were programmed in for a reason Why the hell would you wardec someone if you can't handle their civilian blasters and miner 1's? 石の上にも三年。
Kiri Serrensun	Posted - 2009.05.06 19:59:00 - [42] Edited by: Kiri Serrensun on 06/05/2009 20:00:11 Edited by: Kiri Serrensun on 06/05/2009 19:59:47 Originally by: Ghoest If you fail to war dodge your a feaking idiot. Or a noob, which is the whole problem. There's enough bile against NPC corps being wardec-immune, but targeting corps of noob players make it the logical way to go. And most of the time, if they did fight back in any threatening way, how long would the average band of station limpet wardeccers hang around? The other problem is that because wars are so easy to dodge (move house, return to an NPC corp, use alts), they're only effective against noobs to any worthwile degree.
Nithael Fate Clan Wolverine Twin Star Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.06 20:20:00 - [43] Get some tech 1 frigates with cheap fittings and bring the fight to them! Yeah, ya may lose alot of ships, but it can fun and you can learn alot from it, running away is just sad, Try getting roaming gangs together with little frigates and learn from it! You arent going to escape wars unless you plan on sitting in a NPC corp your whole game life, even if they outskill ya and outnumber you, get experice from this war, learn how to form fleets, how to gather intelligence cause believe me if you think this is bad now, just wait until you are further trained! So what to do! - Get some tech 1 frigates - Fit them for PVP - Hunt them instead - Have fun with it and learn So that next time you get war dced, you will have at least a idea of what to do! But dont swap corps, just suck it up and try to win! That is at least showing some honor with it!
Concorduck Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.06 20:25:00 - [44] Originally by: Nithael Fate So what to do! - Get some tech 1 frigates - Fit them for PVP - Hunt them instead - Have fun with it and learn - Die horribly without scoring kills - Repeat till bankrupt ----------------------------------------- Originally by: Crumplecorn Contact the CSM about it, voting themselves into disbandment wouldn't be pushing the boundaries of absurdity for them.
Myra2007 Shafrak Industries	Posted - 2009.05.06 20:25:00 - [45] So what qualifies a noob? Can't be the char age given that older players make new alts all the time. OTOH I know players who've played for years and they're still noobs. How do you measure who needs protection and who's grown up? The thing is whatever you do to make those supposed noobs safe - someone else will exploit it to be immune to wardecs. Thats not a good thing at all imo. Realistically speaking it's already too easy to protect yourself. Consider people make billions in empire with 5man corps full of "noob"-looking research alts. And tbh if you're a miner-noob in a corp with 5 other miner-noob-friends you'll be still a miner-noob 6 months later thats for sure. How to learn the ropes if you're never under pressure? If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen. Its the same for lowsec and 0.0 and personally i quite like it. That being said i am not unrealistic and ccp hammers comments foreshadow further changes. Maybe in some distant future people will smack your mum in amarr local all day and afk their multibillion freighter while you can do jack** about it. Pretty much like it is now but they won't even need alts in npc corps for that. Not sure if that will be much of an improvement tbh. It's easy to say the current system is broken (and from both sides actually) but i've yet to see anyone offer a good approach that doesn't violate core principles of eve. And i guess that is why we still have the current system in place. I don't have anything better to offer either; and thats why i don't mind what we have now even with all the obvious flaws. And for people who like to give the internet-freud: i haven't ever been part of an empirewar on any of my chars. Though i have been wardecced once and it was fun. -- Originally by:** Jasper Dark I agree! Lets go back into caves and lick rocks!
Nithael Fate Clan Wolverine Twin Star Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.06 20:29:00 - [46] Originally by: Concorduck Originally by: Nithael Fate So what to do! - Get some tech 1 frigates - Fit them for PVP - Hunt them instead - Have fun with it and learn - Die horribly without scoring kills - Repeat till bankrupt Not if they do it right! You can score a few decent kills with tech 1 frigates! So you support that they should just stay docked the whole time and learn nothing! The only other idea would be to try to invite some pvp pilots into corp or hire one to teach them some pvp! There is a few half decent ones who are out there who teach others!
Andrest Disch Amarr Letiferi Praedones	Posted - 2009.05.06 20:33:00 - [47] Originally by: Concorduck Originally by: Nithael Fate So what to do! - Get some tech 1 frigates - Fit them for PVP - Hunt them instead - Have fun with it and learn - Die horribly without scoring kills - Repeat till bankrupt -points at goonswarm-
Concorduck Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.06 20:34:00 - [48] Originally by: Nithael Fate Originally by: Concorduck Originally by: Nithael Fate So what to do! - Get some tech 1 frigates - Fit them for PVP - Hunt them instead - Have fun with it and learn - Die horribly without scoring kills - Repeat till bankrupt Not if they do it right! You can score a few decent kills with tech 1 frigates! So you support that they should just stay docked the whole time and learn nothing! The only other idea would be to try to invite some pvp pilots into corp or hire one to teach them some pvp! There is a few half decent ones who are out there who teach others! You can't fight = You die horribly You DON'T fight = You DON'T die horribly that's pretty much it, and i'll still complain about NPC corps and corp hoppers, because in either of those you DON'T die horribly ----------------------------------------- Originally by: Crumplecorn Contact the CSM about it, voting themselves into disbandment wouldn't be pushing the boundaries of absurdity for them.
Nithael Fate Clan Wolverine Twin Star Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.06 20:38:00 - [49] Well if they chose to corp swap or go into a NPC corp that is their choice, but they should at least try to learn pvp, because later down the road if and when they might decide to join another corp that is bigger and actually fights, they will have to learn pvp anyway! But each to their own I guess, either try and learn something from it or just go swap corps! Meh, **** happens
Concorduck Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.06 20:43:00 - [50] Originally by: Andrest Disch Originally by: Concorduck Originally by: Nithael Fate So what to do! - Get some tech 1 frigates - Fit them for PVP - Hunt them instead - Have fun with it and learn - Die horribly without scoring kills - Repeat till bankrupt -points at goonswarm- because goonswarm is fighting the war fielding huge amounts of t1 frigates. Please keep in mind goonswarm used to swarm in t1 frigates when people still had to work hard to get a bs. T1 frigates fleets get wiped out quite easily (someone sneezes, everybody dies) ----------------------------------------- Originally by: Crumplecorn Contact the CSM about it, voting themselves into disbandment wouldn't be pushing the boundaries of absurdity for them.

Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.06 20:48:00 - [51] No you dont need to learn to pvp if you dont want it. Sure some pro peeveepee'er who play eve like it is supposed to be done according to some will grief you once in a while because he is afraid to attack people who actually shoot back, but if you do it right you dont have to pvp. T1 frig blobs work only if there is at least 1 person who is experienced, so not for 6 newbie miners. And then you need to outnumber them by alot. It can work yes, but for 99% of the cases i would advice them to either be in a quiet system and watch local all times, or dont undock at all. Because right now the only way to end a wardec is to make sure the wardeccers get bored. And they get bored when they dont get kills, if you suicide t1 frigs on them they will continue the wardec. --------------------------------------------- Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
Kiri Serrensun	Posted - 2009.05.06 21:03:00 - [52] Originally by: Concorduck Originally by: Nithael Fate So what to do! - Get some tech 1 frigates - Fit them for PVP - Hunt them instead - Have fun with it and learn - Die horribly without scoring kills - Repeat till bankrupt Or alternatively-- - Command ships and BS sitting on the station undock will dock up as soon as there's the faintest threat.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.06 21:10:00 - [53] Originally by: Kiri Serrensun Originally by: Concorduck Originally by: Nithael Fate So what to do! - Get some tech 1 frigates - Fit them for PVP - Hunt them instead - Have fun with it and learn - Die horribly without scoring kills - Repeat till bankrupt Or alternatively-- - Command ships and BS sitting on the station undock will dock up as soon as there's the faintest threat. Or alternatively-- - Neutral logistics alts undock and all your ships die horribly without scoring kills.
Concorduck Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.06 21:20:00 - [54] Originally by: Furb Killer Originally by: Kiri Serrensun Originally by: Concorduck Originally by: Nithael Fate So what to do! - Get some tech 1 frigates - Fit them for PVP - Hunt them instead - Have fun with it and learn - Die horribly without scoring kills - Repeat till bankrupt Or alternatively-- - Command ships and BS sitting on the station undock will dock up as soon as there's the faintest threat. Or alternatively-- - Neutral logistics alts undock and all your ships die horribly without scoring kills. Or alternatively-- - Jumpclone ----------------------------------------- Originally by: Crumplecorn Contact the CSM about it, voting themselves into disbandment wouldn't be pushing the boundaries of absurdity for them.
Ein Spiegel	Posted - 2009.05.06 21:21:00 - [55] Originally by: Leon Caedo Originally by: Sorted Originally by: Ghoest Originally by: Graelyn This sort of weeping doesn't deserve constructive reply. What you call bad game design is a deep part of the intended game mechanics. If you disagree, you are silly, as the devs confirm this constantly. Actually devs have confirmed more than one that they arent satisfied with the pay to grief noobs reality of the current mechanism. If you fail to war dodge your a feaking idiot. Or you just started the game and don't know how to do anything. No one is worried about vets war dodging. It does not make economic sense to have a system in a MMOG that discourages new players from actually playing the game. Vet: "Hi, thanks for trying eve! Now I'm going to war dec you and force you to ragequit." And Eve, under this mechanic, has a unique blend of intelligent, mature gamers (Goonswarm excluded) from a very wide slice of the world. WarDecs can discourage people from playing the game, maybe, but if that's how they feel I'd rather the /ragequit and let me get on with people that don't cry themselves into sleep when they could just pick up the entire corp, move to another region, and keep going.
Dizeezer Velar Caldari League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees	Posted - 2009.05.06 21:24:00 - [56] Originally by: Ghoest And no I have not been on the gimp side of a high sec war myself. The War Declaration fails in 2 major ways. 1 It becomes a way to pay off the police to pick on noobs. I know some of you feel this ability is vital to game play but it is not ant its bad game design. There is no reason to let a corp of bored mercs declare war on a corp of newbs where 5 or 6 people are trying the game and none have more than 3 or 4 million SP. There is no challenge and no profit. All this does is discourage new players from staying in EVE and getting out of NPC corps. 2 Actually trouble makers just leave and reform corps as soon as they are War Decced. The actual good reason behind being able to War Dec a high sec corp ends up totally failing anyway. There are "corps" that reform a couple of time a week just to shed War Decs. If people with no skill formed a corporation in real life, they would be demolished by their competition. Its no different in eve. If you want to compete, be in a diversified corp or face getting shut down, no corp full of noobs only should ever feel like they have a right to exist.
Cybele Lanier Amarr The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.05.06 21:33:00 - [57] Originally by: Ein Spiegel And Eve, under this mechanic, has a unique blend of intelligent, mature gamers (Goonswarm excluded) from a very wide slice of the world. There's this forum on here called CAOD that might be good for curing you of that impression. --------------- ""Minimum collateral damage" and "Entire star system" do not belong in the same sentence."
Juliet SoulBurner	Posted - 2009.05.06 21:48:00 - [58] If a wardec is basicly a BRIBE to CONCORD to allow FIGHTING how about letting the corp that got dec'd bribe them back. say for 2M to war dec, 20M to bribe concord into ignoring the dec but it doesnt tell this to the corp that dec'd you. It simply concords them when they attack and 'think' you are a legal target. -=- good idea or greatest idea? -=-
Faife Federation of Freedom Fighters Aggression.	Posted - 2009.05.06 21:52:00 - [59] while i dont mind the high sec war system, i will say the "fit frigates and fight back" advice is disingenuous. most wars are started by people who fit stupid armor amount BSes, have a remote rep out of corp alt, and sit in docking range a t1 frigate aint gonna do jack and **** to it. beats me why you'd ever want to play like that. it's like mission running without the standings rise. --
Micheal Dietrich Caldari	Posted - 2009.05.06 22:23:00 - [60] Originally by: Cybele Lanier Originally by: Ein Spiegel And Eve, under this mechanic, has a unique blend of intelligent, mature gamers (Goonswarm excluded) from a very wide slice of the world. There's this forum on here called CAOD that might be good for curing you of that impression. If you go in game then local chat works just as well in many systems.



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