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Is ninja looting an oversight in view of the nerf hammer?

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Laciter	Posted - 2009.12.03 21:25:00 - [421] Originally by: Akhmed TDT Edited by: Akhmed TDT on 03/12/2009 19:55:53 I honestly don't understand why all the "pirates" salvaging someone elses work are so dead set against PVP. More explosions are good. It's not like they can't take a PVP fit ship in and be outclassed with 1 less gun against a PVE fit ship with full room aggro helping you out. We're not claiming that we're pirates. I honestly don't understand why mission runners who operate in hi-sec would think introducing pvp into their mission space would solve anything. Seriously, the devs have stated ad nauseum that wrecks are not owned by anyone. Just think of wrecks as any other hi-sec resource, like asteroids or belt rats. Nobody owns them. Just because they happen to spawn in "your" mission space, doesn't mean they belong to you. If you want to play that way, I suggest going to 0.0.
Jesslyn Daggererux Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.12.03 22:11:00 - [422] 10/10. you made it to 15 pages of this? pro. i only read the first page, it only took that long. Originally by: CCP Fallout Hola, esta forum es ingles solamente. This forum is English only. Welcome to my lock. Now please, zip your pants. I don't need a show.
Alaura Aquila Minmatar	Posted - 2009.12.03 22:13:00 - [423] Originally by: Isakova I can probe out mission space, get in, bm it, warp out, get my salvager, warp back again, start salvaging while the mission owner has full room aggro. If I see his drones heading back to him, I know he's on his way out. I can loot too, I know he wont shoot me because it's futile, would be quicker to warp out and hope rats give aggro. There's really nothing a person can do to counter it. I think if probing out deadspace was made harder, or riskier, I don't care about the changes to the mechanics, but it the sheer ease of it and the amount of newbies doing it, it's become ridiculous. They made it a "profession" now and put scanning in the starting tutorial so there will be even more noobs doing it.
Windjammer Gallente	Posted - 2009.12.04 00:34:00 - [424] Just shoot the wrecks in your mission. Ticks ninjas off and doesn't hurt your bottom line all that much because instead of salvaging you're on to the next mission. Love the whine of a ninja in the mornin. Almost as much as I like my coffee. Windjammer
Quantez ztz	Posted - 2009.12.08 22:15:00 - [425] If anything If someone is not ther under your fleet control or what not then they should be as much of a threat as the npc's.This to me doesnt seem unfair infact it seems completely reasonable as it is your mission and u are ther to do what most missions,that yeild salvage andor loot, are geard toward and that is killin everything that isnt in your fleet or meant to be saved to complete the mission.So seeing as it is so easy for them to pull off , and EVE being the dangerous game that it is,this shouldnt be to difficult for all you whom do like to salvage missions. Then maybe mission salvagers and looters will go do ther own missions and collect ther own salvage.
SubMoja The Scope	Posted - 2010.01.10 02:10:00 - [426] Ninja salvaging will lead carebears to being soon sick of their job. And for thoose there aren't many other solutions, due to time, real life, gameplay or whatever, will end up in click "Remove subscriptions". Most of runners are not in a huge big/active/fun corp, so making money to do their biz is the only thing lasts to them, and ninja salvagers cut at least half of it. Still CCP have to get it.
Ai Mei	Posted - 2010.01.10 03:21:00 - [427] WoW this is a major necro.
Cyprus Black Caldari Cowboy Diplomacy	Posted - 2010.01.10 04:04:00 - [428] Here's a copy/paste for ya: Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing." Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit. Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. Per CCP Incognito : Originally by: CCP Incognito Had a chat with some designers this evening. Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private. They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks. (These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.) So obviously there's nothing that needs to be nerfed since nothing is wrong. ___________________________________ "In the land of predators, the lion does not fear the jackal." -Dexter
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.01.10 04:09:00 - [429] Originally by: SubMoja Ninja salvaging will lead carebears to being soon sick of their job. No. What will lead carebears to being sick with EVE is treating it as a job. If they can't have fun without getting every last bit of salvage, they probably should unsubscribe, partly because the game obviously isn't for them, but mainly because it will probably be good for them. That level of OCD can't be healthy. More than that, though… Originally by: Ai Mei WoW this is a major necro. This. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Kyra Felann Gallente	Posted - 2010.01.10 05:23:00 - [430] Originally by: Merdaneth Actually, I would love to see agents hand out the same mission to multiple players, and see whoever gets to complete the mission goals first. Competitive PvE! Perhaps then players would be less likely to think of wrecks obviously owned by Angels or Blood Raiders as 'their loot' and 'their salvage'. There doesn't need to be a standings reduction (or just a very small) for these missions, but they would sure encourage a bit more interaction in these mission experiences. Absolutely. Some kind of competition needs to be added to missions--they're the only money-making activity with no competition. Either the rewards should decrease based on the number of missions that agents hands out per day or they should have a limited number per day, or they should give the same mission to multiple people.

Junko Togawa Caldari	Posted - 2010.01.10 17:16:00 - [431] Mmm, necrolicious! But you see, the competition is there for missions. It's called ninjas. They compete for the salvage. And if they want, the mission specific rewards. Sorry kids, can't have it both ways. Either nobody can come into the missions and you move 'em to losec, or you leave 'em where they are and nibble at scraps from the meat of the kills. Oh, and FYI...not everyone's at the big hubs. There's plenty of people scattered around other places, running peacefully and ninja-free. Ta-ta!
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2010.01.10 18:03:00 - [432] Originally by: Junko Togawa But you see, the competition is there for threads. It's called necross. They compete for the boards. And if they want, the forum specific rewards. Sorry kids, can't have it both ways. Either nobody can come into the threads and you move on to new ones, or you leave 'em where they are and nibble at scraps from the meat of the kills. Oh, and FYI...not everyone's at the big boards. There's plenty of people scattered around other boards, trolling peacefully and necro-free. Ta-ta! NO!!! BAD!!! Why can't you leave a thread to die a slow death in peace?
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.01.11 09:56:00 - [433] Oh look, its this thread still :/
Amaron Ghant Caldari Icarus' Wings	Posted - 2010.01.11 10:44:00 - [434] First off, salvage belongs to the person who can get to the wreck first; fact. That said. Rats in a mission should be able (much like sleepers) to retarget.
stravros vatta	Posted - 2010.01.11 11:28:00 - [435] i ninja salvage and i enjoy it for 3 reasons 1 its easy 2 its profitable 3 often the mission roller will emo rage in local or convo and be generally funney becuse there so angry the problem isnt that the lvl4 is easy to scan down infact the mission its self is impossible its the massive battleship the runners use that i can scan down in my sleep one thing that bugs me is why do wreaks have your name on them if there not owned bit of a plot hole the best thing to do when a ninja shows up is to blast our own wreaks to rob him of the satisfaction & profit then warp out and get him agroed by the rats dont shoot him i personally have a gank fit scorpion for just such the occasion (its the pefect ship for droping the lone marauder becuse of there wimpy sensor strength)
Quantez ztz	Posted - 2010.03.13 20:38:00 - [436] Well then they should put the missions in Low Sec ! If the issue is all about stealin and I dont think its so much stealing as it is your mission and u should be able to kill them for bein in your mission but since its all about stealing and everyone crying about how its a harsh enviroment and all that but yet u wont allow the mission runner to have agro rights on someone not invited to ther mission deadspace then put the missions in low sec and make everyone go to low sec to get ther preciouse scraps and then let ther game play get more involved for now they can survive on the little scraps left from the noobs but now they are the scraps left by the real Pirates ! it makes me laugh out loud XD So eve is tough I get it so why all this high sec missions ?? why any high sec missions ? take the noob straight into low sec for a training mission why not but to say that eve is harsh and then not allow reasonable cause and effect to take place doesnt make any sense . So please solve this and put atleast lvl3 and higher in low sec please lol maybe even break them in at 2.5 or something but this is so old dealing with all this and hearing how its legal good its legal but its too easy for the ninja IMO . And EVE is a Harsh enviroment .
Brechan Skene	Posted - 2010.03.13 21:41:00 - [437] To whom it may concern, What you are saying is that the current mechanics of salvaging is not correct to "real world" examples Therefore what you are saying is that there is no example of a conflict/ engagement (a mission) occurring consisting of winner of the conflict/ engagement (the player) and a loser of the conflict / engagement (the NPC) and subsequently a third party (the Ninja) turning up later and salvaging the wrecks for profit without permission from either the designated player or NPC of the conflict/engagement Are you sure of this fact Brechan
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Punic Corp.	Posted - 2010.03.13 22:21:00 - [438] Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 13/03/2010 22:22:20 When rigs and salvage were first introduced, you couldn't salvage a wreck without first emptying it of all loot. That is, unless a wreck was empty to begin with, you couldn't salvage it without being flagged as a thief to the person who owns the loot. Then CCP changed it, in a patch a few months later, to the current system. And despite almost 3 years of mission runner whining, they've kept it this way. It's not an oversight on CCPs part. This is the way they want it to be. ----- 'In Eve, as in real life, if you are bored it's your own fault.'
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2010.03.14 23:41:00 - [439] Originally by: Junko Togawa Mmm, necrolicious! But you see, the competition is there for missions. It's called ninjas. They compete for the salvage. And if they want, the mission specific rewards. Sorry kids, can't have it both ways. Either nobody can come into the missions and you move 'em to losec, or you leave 'em where they are and nibble at scraps from the meat of the kills. Oh, and FYI...not everyone's at the big hubs. There's plenty of people scattered around other places, running peacefully and ninja-free. Ta-ta! My bold: Scraps of meat? No way. Prime rib more like it. I ninja. My wallet would disagree with you. My hourly earnings are on par with all but the highest skill l4 mission runners. Seriously! Those of you who still think of ninjaing as a mini-profession or only profitable for noobs are sorely mistaken. Granted, I don't get LP or SP. But the isk is good, it's engaging and there's a bit of pvp thrown into the fray. I have no expenses like drones, ammo and the occasional repair. Well, I do occasionally repair. But repairing a T2 frigate is a lot cheaper than a BS. The best part is I can ninja as little or as much as I want. I don't get stuck in that occasional mission that takes longer than 30 minutes to an hour. And yes the tears in local are a bonus as well.
Boomershoot Caldari Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2010.03.15 00:01:00 - [440] Originally by: Quantez ztz Well then they should put the missions in Low Sec ! If the issue is all about stealin and I dont think its so much stealing as it is your mission and u should be able to kill them for bein in your mission but since its all about stealing and everyone crying about how its a harsh enviroment and all that but yet u wont allow the mission runner to have agro rights on someone not invited to ther mission deadspace then put the missions in low sec and make everyone go to low sec to get ther preciouse scraps and then let ther game play get more involved for now they can survive on the little scraps left from the noobs but now they are the scraps left by the real Pirates ! it makes me laugh out loud XD So eve is tough I get it so why all this high sec missions ?? why any high sec missions ? take the noob straight into low sec for a training mission why not but to say that eve is harsh and then not allow reasonable cause and effect to take place doesnt make any sense . So please solve this and put atleast lvl3 and higher in low sec please lol maybe even break them in at 2.5 or something but this is so old dealing with all this and hearing how its legal good its legal but its too easy for the ninja IMO . And EVE is a Harsh enviroment . CHEST HIGH WALL OF TEXT OUT OF **ING NOWHERE REVIVES DEAD THREAD, NEIGHBORS RAGE. The parrot vortex signature had to go. No hypnotic graphics in signatures please. Shadow. World Domination With Hypnotic Parrots Status: FOILED!**

Hoedagen	Posted - 2010.03.15 01:10:00 - [441] I run L4's it's takn me a long time to build standing etc, build up isk and skills required for the ships to do L4's so to me, when a ninja comes in, its infuriating, here's someone probably a month in game, making money off of MY training and investment. A ninja invests a fraction of the time that a L4 runner does. A ninja invests a fraction of the isk that a L4 runner does. and yet, without any risk or likely come back a ninja gets to take what I'm earning? and then has the gaul to rub it in my face. If L4's were a primary part of my eve experience, I'd be dropping my account. Thankfully I enjoy other aspects of the game. I seriously think that the act of ninja salvaging which should be a viable thing in eve, it should be harder to obtain the capability to do it or have some form of cause/response. Its unfair to any L4 runner to see their wrecks being hoovered up and not able to do a damn thing about it, in most cases the ninja will steal as well, as has been stated they know all too well that by the time a L4 runner BS targets them, they'd be well out of harms way, or have called in a gank squad. I agree something need be done, and in my eyes that something is that there should be 'effect' of the ninja's actions... everything else in eve has effect, why not this?
small chimp	Posted - 2010.03.15 01:20:00 - [442] Has the amount of ninjas actually gone down? I haven't seen anyone cryinng in doxi for ages and people report that they don't remember getting ninjas in their missions for ages also????
Rhaetic Black Ice Consortium	Posted - 2010.03.15 01:29:00 - [443] The price of salvage has actually come down quite a bit, which may be part of it. Another is that a lot of people have taken to vindictively popping wrecks when a ninja shows up. A third is that there is actually competition now that scanning is so easy. I have had three ninjas show up into one of my missions recently, and all three raged at me and tried to train the mission onto me when I popped wrecks. Good times.
Izen Cracker	Posted - 2010.03.15 06:34:00 - [444] Why doesn't anyone who complains about ninjas just take the obvious solid solution and just salvage as you kill? You can buy plexes with in-game cash, use it to feed another account who would happen to fly a salvaging ship that would tag along in your missions. The alternative is flying a marauder. Result?: probing ninjas flip into a big gaping hole of disappointment. Ninja-ing may be easy to do, but the probing part of it isn't exempt from a bit of tedium.
Zartrader	Posted - 2010.03.15 08:48:00 - [445] Originally by: Hoedagen I run L4's it's takn me a long time to build standing etc, build up isk and skills required for the ships to do L4's so to me, when a ninja comes in, its infuriating, here's someone probably a month in game, making money off of MY training and investment. A ninja invests a fraction of the time that a L4 runner does. A ninja invests a fraction of the isk that a L4 runner does. and yet, without any risk or likely come back a ninja gets to take what I'm earning? and then has the gaul to rub it in my face. If L4's were a primary part of my eve experience, I'd be dropping my account. Thankfully I enjoy other aspects of the game. I seriously think that the act of ninja salvaging which should be a viable thing in eve, it should be harder to obtain the capability to do it or have some form of cause/response. Its unfair to any L4 runner to see their wrecks being hoovered up and not able to do a damn thing about it, in most cases the ninja will steal as well, as has been stated they know all too well that by the time a L4 runner BS targets them, they'd be well out of harms way, or have called in a gank squad. I agree something need be done, and in my eyes that something is that there should be 'effect' of the ninja's actions... everything else in eve has effect, why not this? There is something that can be done. Move to a new agent. I've run hundreds of missions with good agents and never been Ninjad, not once (I bet I will be now) If you are being ninjad its because you fail to see the simple solution. Most problems in EVE have a solution, often many. Some people just moan about how unfair life is, some people work out how to change that. Guess which are the more successful.
Brianna Wyvernsbane Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.03.15 08:49:00 - [446] Originally by: Cyprus Black Here's a copy/paste for ya: Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing." Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit. Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. Per CCP Incognito : Originally by: CCP Incognito Had a chat with some designers this evening. Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private. They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks. (These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.) So obviously there's nothing that needs to be nerfed since nothing is wrong. not the first person that posted this, but this gets my vote for best post on this thread. it just makes me wonder WHY you think the wreck is YOURS when its been stated REPEATEDLY that it is NOT yours. i've been on both ends. as both a ninja and as a runner. i quite frankly dont see a problem.
Mjiryen Rose Minmatar	Posted - 2010.03.16 00:53:00 - [447] Mmmm, so the zombie apocalypse is real? (Do you see what I did there?) I enjoy ninja-salvagers especially because of the fun dialogues they have with their "victims" in local. I remember some guy would respond to complaints by saying he was cleaning up "space trash," and took this whole environmentalist stance where he started threatening to fine the people he was salvaging from for "littering." the tears were many and they were also delicious.
Renan Ruivo	Posted - 2010.03.21 01:52:00 - [448] Nothing against people warping in and salvaging my wrecks. Everything against 9 to 10 people warping in while i'm tanking 4 battleships and tractoring my wrecks, salvaging them and actually stealing my loot also. To me loot stealing should be dealt with by CONCORD, and not only by flagging them red to me. Now.. i don't actually care much for that idea either, but to the fact that it's extremally easy to pull off.. any noob can scan deadspace.
Miati Leekon	Posted - 2010.03.21 02:11:00 - [449] Edited by: Miati Leekon on 21/03/2010 02:13:06 Originally by: Tai Khuc Loot = Belongs to the person who's name is on the wreck i.e. the owner. Salvage = Belongs to anyone thus no criminal flagging etc. Working as intended and there is nothing wrong with it. Not the point. CCP changes direction with the setting of the sun.......... if the sun has been up too long in those northern latitudes......... even the sun works as intended but then eventually sets. Besides the reality is CCP had dumped the backstory so "missions" no longer serve any purpose. That is reality. You want PVE back, then fight for it.
Kerfira Audaces Fortuna Iuvat	Posted - 2010.03.21 10:03:00 - [450] Originally by: Renan Ruivo Nothing against people warping in and salvaging my wrecks. Everything against 9 to 10 people warping in while i'm tanking 4 battleships and tractoring my wrecks, salvaging them and actually stealing my loot also. To me loot stealing should be dealt with by CONCORD, and not only by flagging them red to me. You're forgetting that EVE is NOT an instanced WoW-in-space game! No, it is a game where the designers actually want players to INTERACT, and rather in an unfriendly fashion than a friendly one. This is the base foundation of the game! The only things that BELONGS to you is the stuff you have in your hangar (and that can still be impounded if in a conquerable station)! Stuff in your cargo-hold is only yours if you manage to avoid getting blown up, and stuff floating in space doesn't belong to anyone until someone picks it up! Loot in wrecks with your name on is only 'yours' if you actually manage to get it and hold on to it! Otherwise it belongs to the other guy! EVE makes a concession and allows you to try to claim back what you thought was 'yours' (shoot the taker), but if you're too scared to do that, tough luck! The only protection offered by the game is that if someone shoots at you when in high-sec, CONCORD blows them up! That's IT! Other than that, it's up to yourself... Possession is ovnership in EVE! If you can't hack that, you simply have to admit you're not tough enough for this game! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.



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