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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Isakova
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Posted - 2009.05.07 19:17:00 -
[1]
First off let me say, I've done it and I've had it done to me. Since resubbing my second account it's never an issue but my question is as follows.
Generally overpowered in EVE means far too easy to do, profitable/useful with very little risk. People are trying to get L4s pushed to low sec for this very reason.
People got Falcons nerfed for this reason. Webbers, drones too.
Ninja salvaging. Probing out deadspace is so easy newbies do it with great success. It doesn't flagging you to salvage another person wreck (I know CCPs stand on this, it makes sense) it is intentionally done in these unbalanced L4 missions (;)) because noone can aggro them, and if they choose to steal some nice drop, they will be away before they've even lost 50% shields because no mission runner carries a scram.
I don't know what to suggest as its a fun game mechanic, but its completely risk free, ridiculously easy to do, and in many cases highly profitable. L4 mission loot and salvage without the investment in ships / time / standing gains/losses to get them. I tried it with my second account while running an L4 mission and it was easy. This is far too open for abuse, and is getting to the point where theres 2 ninjas for every 10 mission runner in a hub. |
Tai Khuc
Khuc Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.05.07 19:21:00 -
[2]
Loot = Belongs to the person who's name is on the wreck i.e. the owner.
Salvage = Belongs to anyone thus no criminal flagging etc.
Working as intended and there is nothing wrong with it.
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Isakova
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Posted - 2009.05.07 19:22:00 -
[3]
Yes nice cut and paste.
Completely overlooking my point.
Ninja salvaging in mission deadspace is pretty much consequence free, not in an asteroid belt. |
Cutie Chaser
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.05.07 19:24:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Isakova
Ninja salvaging. Probing out deadspace is so easy newbies do it with great success. It doesn't flagging you to salvage another person wreck (I know CCPs stand on this, it makes sense) it is intentionally done in these unbalanced L4 missions (;)) because noone can aggro them, and if they choose to steal some nice drop, they will be away before they've even lost 50% shields because no mission runner carries a scram.
I don't know what to suggest as its a fun game mechanic, but its completely risk free, ridiculously easy to do, and in many cases highly profitable. L4 mission loot and salvage without the investment in ships / time / standing gains/losses to get them. I tried it with my second account while running an L4 mission and it was easy. This is far too open for abuse, and is getting to the point where theres 2 ninjas for every 10 mission runner in a hub.
It is the lions job to run the hyenas off of his kill; if he'd rather share then feast then he dines with filth.
*** Thats a Templar, the amarr fighter. Its a combat drone used by carriers. |
THE L0CK
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Posted - 2009.05.07 19:26:00 -
[5]
I feel I belong in this thread.
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Isakova
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Posted - 2009.05.07 19:29:00 -
[6]
I can probe out mission space, get in, bm it, warp out, get my salvager, warp back again, start salvaging while the mission owner has full room aggro.
If I see his drones heading back to him, I know he's on his way out. I can loot too, I know he wont shoot me because it's futile, would be quicker to warp out and hope rats give aggro. There's really nothing a person can do to counter it. I think if probing out deadspace was made harder, or riskier, I don't care about the changes to the mechanics, but it the sheer ease of it and the amount of newbies doing it, it's become ridiculous. |
Alora Venoda
GalTech Whiskey Creek Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.07 19:29:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Alora Venoda on 07/05/2009 19:30:24 perhaps then mission intruders (in hi-sec) should get nerfed?
how about all unknown pilots upon entering a mission deadspace belonging to someone else get flagged to the mission owner (and his corp) for trespassing...
if you are in same gang, corp, or have high standings with mission owner, there is no aggro.
~~~~~ Remember, EVE is a sandbox and other MMOs are rock gardens. Pretty rocks can be collected, but collecting sand is pointless. Instead build a sandcastle and keep it from being knocked down. |
Clair Bear
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.05.07 19:30:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Cutie Chaser
It is the lions job to run the hyenas off of his kill; if he'd rather share then feast then he dines with filth.
AFAIK the lion on the savanna doesn't get insta-slain for taking a big chunk out of a hyena.
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Isakova
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Posted - 2009.05.07 19:32:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Alora Venoda perhaps then mission intruders (in hi-sec) should get nerfed?
how about all unknown pilots upon entering a mission deadspace belonging to someone else get flagged to the mission owner for trespassing...
if you are in same gang, corp, or have high standings with mission owner, there is no aggro.
I don't think it needs to be that serious, just make it harder to probe out mission space or something. What you suggest takes it too close to instancing. I don't know what the solution would be, but I guarantee if you do 10 missions in a l4 hub, near half of them would be interrupted. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.07 19:37:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Akita T on 07/05/2009 19:37:53
Yeah, you are right, this is a complete and utter travesty, how they dare make looting a criminal act while salvaging isn't ? Solution : make looting NOT a criminal act
Get the stuff first or blow up the wreck, your choice.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
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Alora Venoda
GalTech Whiskey Creek Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.07 19:45:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Isakova
I don't think it needs to be that serious, just make it harder to probe out mission space or something. What you suggest takes it too close to instancing. I don't know what the solution would be, but I guarantee if you do 10 missions in a l4 hub, near half of them would be interrupted.
well i certainly agree that probing out a mission deadspace should require enough skills that a month-old newb should not have much success. like, it should add a lot of deviation and reduce signatures inside it or something.
i do find it unfair that someone can invade your mission and steal your salvage and there is nothing you can do about it other than:
1. bumping him a lot 2. salvaging faster than him 3. leave so that NPC's may attack him
only #2 is a remotely reasonable option, but you would really need a 2nd account or a friend in order to do it.
~~~~~ Remember, EVE is a sandbox and other MMOs are rock gardens. Pretty rocks can be collected, but collecting sand is pointless. Instead build a sandcastle and keep it from being knocked down. |
Isakova
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Posted - 2009.05.07 19:57:00 -
[12]
I agree, I think the problem being I measure how fair and balanced an issue is by what alternative / counter there is.
Ninja salvaging there is none. You can't even shoot the person flying around salvaging the wrecks.
Fair enough, wrecks are just that, wrecks, floating in space for anyone to steal. But inside a mission space, they are spawned by the mission owner, for the sole purpose of doing said mission. They are not belt rats spawning indefinately, or complexes. Before owner of mission pressed Accept, they didn't exist. I dunno, perhaps if there was a grace period in deadspace only - who knows. It's just a problem I see, I don't wield the nerf stick so it's not my decision to make. |
Liz Laser
Outland Research and Development Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2009.05.07 20:15:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Liz Laser on 07/05/2009 20:16:33
Originally by: Alora Venoda
i do find it unfair that someone can invade your mission and steal your salvage and there is nothing you can do about it other than...
Quote:
The thing is... it isn't "your" salvage.
Mission runners were happily running missions before CCP invented the profession of salvaging. CCP ADDED salvaging to the game, and in a typical greed-driven player thought process, the missioners (and ratters) want the ADDED benefit of salvaging for themselves rather than allowing someone more dedicated to the profession to ply their trade.
I've never ninja'd salvage. I do tend to salvage wrecks I killed when no one else is around to do it. But I don't get all huffy if someone gets to it before I do.
Let me stress a previous point: missioning and ratting were worthwhile endeavors long before salvaging ever existed.
This topic is like watching two fat kids fight over who gets more whipped cream on their banana split, when what they should really do is eat their da*n vegetables.
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Isakova
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Posted - 2009.05.07 20:23:00 -
[14]
Having had a quick think about this, my solution would be:
No bookmarking deadspace. Would mean if you want to probe out / salvage missions, you have to use the same ship. You either lose your probing bonus OR lose your number of high slots / chance to lose your covops to 1 -2 volley from a mission runner.
The knock ons would hit salvage alts / salvage buddies etc, and the odd warp in warp out mission, but that would please all the "nerf l4" lot too. |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.05.07 20:30:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Isakova This is far too open for abuse, and is getting to the point where theres 2 ninjas for every 10 mission runner in a hub.
Solution: don't be in a hub. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.07 20:40:00 -
[16]
Sadly i can never find someone who is intrested in salvaging my missions, even angel extravaganza usually has no people intrested. Granted i dont mission in a hub, but still.
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Overseer Aliena
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.05.07 20:44:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Isakova This is far too open for abuse, and is getting to the point where theres 2 ninjas for every 10 mission runner in a hub.
Solution: don't be in a hub.
No longer a solution. Even in the remote out of the way backwater poor quality agent locations ninja looters are sprouting up because at some point in time even they figured out that is where mission runners are going.
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dankness420
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Posted - 2009.05.07 20:52:00 -
[18]
here is a suggestion....
fit a scram?
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Micheal Dietrich
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.05.07 20:57:00 -
[19]
Originally by: dankness420 here is a suggestion....
fit a scram?
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Junko Togawa
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Posted - 2009.05.07 21:06:00 -
[20]
Here's an idea.
1)Change all missions to mission deadspace, requiring the passing of an acceleration gate. 2)Make it impossible to pass an acceleration gate unless you are the person who accepted the mission or are fleeted with the person who has it. 3)Remove flagging for can theft on wrecks spawned in mission deadspace and make it possible for anyone to tractor them. 4)Make it possible to scan down and warp to wrecks.
Result: Those who want to keep their loot and salvage secure can return to the mission deadspace before turn-in and clean up. Those who do not can turn in their mission, and the scavengers can then fight amongst each other over who gets the leftovers.
Summation: Happy carebears get safe salvage, true salvagers get a new abundance of wrecks unlike any other, gankbears looking to grief runners get to emorage on forums for my lulz.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations BlackWater.
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Posted - 2009.05.07 21:08:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Junko Togawa Summation: Happy carebears get safe salvage, true salvagers get a new abundance of wrecks unlike any other, gankbears looking to grief runners get to emorage on forums for my lulz.
In other words, a poor solution. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.07 21:11:00 -
[22]
Fit a tractor beam (haha poor minnie/amarr mission runners), loot bs wrecks near your ship, wish the salvagers fun with their stuff. And ask them if they want to be fleeted so they can tractor the wrecks.
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Isakova
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Posted - 2009.05.07 21:11:00 -
[23]
Here's the problem. My scram doesn't work at 20-50km, which is generally the distanced travelled in a mission.
Also, a huge portion of the mildly intelligent ones use neutal RRs and wait to gank your mission ship too. It's a lose lose for everyone but the ninja carebears. |
Isakova
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Posted - 2009.05.07 21:17:00 -
[24]
What amuses me is ninja high sec salvagers using the word carebear as an insult. Seriously, 0 risk mission runner griefing - how much more carebear can you get? Take that **** to low sec? Didn't think so.
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RedSplat
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2009.05.07 21:23:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Isakova What amuses me is ninja high sec salvagers using the word carebear as an insult. Seriously, 0 risk mission runner griefing - how much more carebear can you get? Take that **** to low sec? Didn't think so.
Mission in Lowsec and you can shoot at them freely tuff guy
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal it does get progressively longer.
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Emperor Cheney
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Posted - 2009.05.07 21:23:00 -
[26]
I think an interesting solution would be to make deadspace a complete free-fire zone. Effectively a nerf to both missioning and ninja salvaging while fair to both, and it would make empire interesting.
I run missions and I hate it. But I hate all the other ways of making money even more. If they could be spiced up and have them be nerfed a bit to make mining more profitable (as it should be), that would work out for everyone. And then the people who are afraid of fighting can go mine veldespar, as they should.
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Weight What
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Posted - 2009.05.07 21:24:00 -
[27]
Originally by: RedSplat
Originally by: Isakova What amuses me is ninja high sec salvagers using the word carebear as an insult. Seriously, 0 risk mission runner griefing - how much more carebear can you get? Take that **** to low sec? Didn't think so.
Mission in Lowsec and you can shoot at them freely tuff guy
How come there are no ninja salvagers in low sec mission areas? This is a more important question, I feel
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Annonymous, trading as "Weight What". |
Isakova
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Posted - 2009.05.07 21:26:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Isakova on 07/05/2009 21:26:33
Originally by: Emperor Cheney I think an interesting solution would be to make deadspace a complete free-fire zone. Effectively a nerf to both missioning and ninja salvaging while fair to both, and it would make empire interesting.
I run missions and I hate it. But I hate all the other ways of making money even more. If they could be spiced up and have them be nerfed a bit to make mining more profitable (as it should be), that would work out for everyone. And then the people who are afraid of fighting can go mine veldespar, as they should.
This would work well in conjuction with my suggestion I think maybe. As it stands now, anyone probes out a mission runner, gets their friends, warps in, destroys person set with mission spec hardeners taking full room aggro, tidies off his mission thus stealing his bounties and salvage and docks again. Who'd bother doing anything but sitting outside stations pretending to be PVPers with finger hovered over dock key :D
Also, there are no ninja salvagers in low sec, because in high sec its completely consequence free. |
dankness420
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Posted - 2009.05.07 21:29:00 -
[29]
i think the truth is that if you are living in empire to begin with you are a carebear
instanced pvp is the last thing this game needs
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Emperor Cheney
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Posted - 2009.05.07 21:30:00 -
[30]
The downside is you'd have gank gangs effectively shutting down missioning. But if shooting someone in deadspace also led to a small security status drop, that would balance that out. Missioners can shoot salvagers, gankers can kill everyone but only so much before they get booted, and salvagers suddenly have the most fun in the game trying to avoid everyone in their little frigs.
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Weight What
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Posted - 2009.05.07 21:30:00 -
[31]
Originally by: dankness420 i think the truth is that if you are living in empire to begin with you are a carebear
instanced pvp is the last thing this game needs
Au contraire, I believe that little "fight boxes" in each system could be just what this game needs - "Two go in, one comes out!"
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Annonymous, trading as "Weight What". |
Emperor Cheney
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Posted - 2009.05.07 21:32:00 -
[32]
Originally by: dankness420
instanced pvp is the last thing this game needs
How is it any more instanced than flipping a can?
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.05.07 21:36:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Isakova Yes nice cut and paste.
Completely overlooking my point.
Ninja salvaging in mission deadspace is pretty much consequence free, not in an asteroid belt.
So is missioning in a deadspace. I fail to see the cause for complaint, unless it is perhaps "oh has it been 2 weeks since the last thread complaining about salvage "theft" already?".
If you don't want anyone taking "your" salvage, mission outside hi-sec.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.05.07 21:39:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Junko Togawa Here's an idea.
1)Change all missions to mission deadspace, requiring the passing of an acceleration gate. 2)Make it impossible to pass an acceleration gate unless you are the person who accepted the mission or are fleeted with the person who has it. 3)Remove flagging for can theft on wrecks spawned in mission deadspace and make it possible for anyone to tractor them. 4)Make it possible to scan down and warp to wrecks.
Result: Those who want to keep their loot and salvage secure can return to the mission deadspace before turn-in and clean up. Those who do not can turn in their mission, and the scavengers can then fight amongst each other over who gets the leftovers.
Summation: Happy carebears get safe salvage, true salvagers get a new abundance of wrecks unlike any other, gankbears looking to grief runners get to emorage on forums for my lulz.
I accept this proposal as long as mission rewards and bounties are decreased proportionately with the reduction in risk. About a 95% cut would seem to be appropriate.
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2009.05.07 21:41:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Malcanis If you don't want anyone taking "your" salvage, mission outside hi-sec.
This. By moving all level 4s to lowsec, we solve two problems at once: no more free zero-risk ISK, and no more salvage theft problem. -----------
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Overseer Aliena
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.05.07 21:45:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin
Originally by: Malcanis If you don't want anyone taking "your" salvage, mission outside hi-sec.
This. By moving all level 4s to lowsec, we solve two problems at once: no more free zero-risk ISK, and no more salvage theft problem.
Ahem, obvious move to L3's/emoragequit answers inc....
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Bruno Capri
Minmatar The Scarecrows
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Posted - 2009.05.07 22:11:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Weight What
Originally by: dankness420 i think the truth is that if you are living in empire to begin with you are a carebear
instanced pvp is the last thing this game needs
Au contraire, I believe that little "fight boxes" in each system could be just what this game needs - "Two go in, one comes out!"
PvP is rarely 1 vs 1... Besides, if you want a little action just probe a wormhole out in hi-sec, bingo insta-pvp _______________ ₪Fight the Power |
Dzil
Caldari Second Quadrant Ice Division
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Posted - 2009.05.07 22:17:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Isakova I don't know what to suggest as its a fun game mechanic, but its completely risk free, ridiculously easy to do, and in many cases highly profitable. L4 mission loot and salvage without the investment in ships / time / standing gains/losses to get them. I tried it with my second account while running an L4 mission and it was easy. This is far too open for abuse, and is getting to the point where theres 2 ninjas for every 10 mission runner in a hub.
Never been ninja salvaged personally, so I think you're blowing it out of proportion. I have no problem with this, it's providing exactly the kind of non-ccp intervention solution I'd hoped for: in low sec you could shoot him before he looted your 10m isk module and fled, and would probably be carrying a warp scram. If there's really 2 /10 in your hub, start running with a scrambler. Or hire someone to loot for you. Or just continue to QQ that your isk printing, never exhausting resource of l4 missions got slightly less profitable.
*hint* fly a drake, they don't bother to scan down drakes, they look for battleships.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.05.07 22:17:00 -
[39]
Quote: ecause noone can aggro them, and if they choose to steal some nice drop, they will be away before they've even lost 50% shields because no mission runner carries a scram.
Then fit one.
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Doug Dread
Minmatar Brilliant Eclipse
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Posted - 2009.05.07 22:21:00 -
[40]
Just think of the ninja looters as your tax for all the security you get by missioning in high sec.
Seriously, you have practically no risk when you set your ship up properly for the mission (heck you even know what to expect in every mission before you get there). Since there is no official concord tax for all their overpowered security (a good idea I read elsewhere on these forums), we can consider the ninja salvagers your tax men.
Grow a pair and live with it.
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Michael Corinthos
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Posted - 2009.05.07 22:31:00 -
[41]
Originally by: THE L0CK I feel I belong in this thread.
lol
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Fairren
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Posted - 2009.05.07 22:37:00 -
[42]
Mission runners have nothing to complain about. I say this as a month runner myself.
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Serra Polaris
Amarr Trichomes Unlimited The Circus
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Posted - 2009.05.07 23:38:00 -
[43]
I used to ninja salvage back in my earlier days and one thing I've heard a lot from mission runners and pilots in local is that you can make more isk/hour if you just leave your unsalvaged wrecks and start a new mission. I've never really done missions myself, but in the month or so that I ninja salvaged in Sivala, whenever I entered the mission room there was usually no one in there or they were just finishing up. Sivala seems to be full of bot-like hardcore Raven mission runners, so they probably know what they are doing. So the solution is to ignore your wrecks and make more isk by ending the mission and doing a new one. Plus if you actually stick around and salvage you're just increasing that chance that someone will probe you down.
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Herzog Wolfhammer
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Posted - 2009.05.08 00:03:00 -
[44]
Many times it's sad to leave so much metal floating around, wondering if it will go to waste.
I think the best solution would be a timer on the wreck. Salvage it after a certain amount of time and it's ok, missioner present or not. Before that: CONCORDinated.
This allows us non-salvaging "I ain't got time" types have the option at least and let's the salvagers exercise a little patience that would be rewarding. Everybody gets what they wants, nobody has to be a weenie.
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Bullageddon
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.05.08 02:31:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Junko Togawa Here's an idea.
1)Change all missions to mission deadspace, requiring the passing of an acceleration gate. 2)Make it impossible to pass an acceleration gate unless you are the person who accepted the mission or are fleeted with the person who has it. 3)Remove flagging for can theft on wrecks spawned in mission deadspace and make it possible for anyone to tractor them. 4)Make it possible to scan down and warp to wrecks.
Result: Those who want to keep their loot and salvage secure can return to the mission deadspace before turn-in and clean up. Those who do not can turn in their mission, and the scavengers can then fight amongst each other over who gets the leftovers.
Summation: Happy carebears get safe salvage, true salvagers get a new abundance of wrecks unlike any other, gankbears looking to grief runners get to emorage on forums for my lulz.
"Wah I want risk free iskies!"
There's risk in all aspects of money making in this game, even salvaging. The salvager is just the risk mission runners have to live with.
deal with it, move on. === This Space For Lease or Sale. |
ISHKUR MASTER
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.08 02:42:00 -
[46]
GB2WOW
Seriously
Divide up space, hmmm, think about it for a sec, space simulator. Space, wide and open, do you see fences stopping you from flying somewhere? No, then why should the "Ninja Salvager/Prober" be stopped, he's really a rubbish collection agent, No?
Be thankfull CCP gives you rights to the items in the cargo of the poor Rat you just killed, Just because you pillage the wrecks doesn't mean it belongs to you.
Grow a set.
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Jer Bu
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Posted - 2009.05.08 03:04:00 -
[47]
Solution does not need to be complicated. Let me shoot at someone who salvages a wreck I created. Let me choose whether to engage or not. It might even force me to refit a little more PvP on my missions...Everyone wins.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.05.08 03:16:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Jer Bu Solution does not need to be complicated. Let me shoot at someone who salvages a wreck I created. Let me choose whether to engage or not. It might even force me to refit a little more PvP on my missions...Everyone wins.
The floating scraps that constitute the wreck are not yours. If you want to choose whether to engage or not, mission in lowsec or 0.0.
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Jer Bu
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Posted - 2009.05.08 03:41:00 -
[49]
Everyone doesn't win in that case dumb dumb.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.05.08 03:52:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Jer Bu Everyone doesn't win in that case dumb dumb.
Can you explain how ninjasalvagers win in your example?
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2009.05.08 04:07:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Serra Polaris I've heard a lot from mission runners and pilots in local is that you can make more isk/hour if you just leave your unsalvaged wrecks and start a new mission.
This only becomes true when it is faster for you to blow up battleships than to salvage them. Salvaging takes 20 seconds (1 cycle). If you can blow up a battleship in mission-space faster than this, it's time to stop salvaging. Then again, when you have that level of firepower you're probably flying a marauder and are salvaging battleship wrecks as you go.
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Jer Bu
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Posted - 2009.05.08 04:20:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Originally by: Jer Bu Everyone doesn't win in that case dumb dumb.
Can you explain how ninjasalvagers win in your example?
Yup, Its simple. They get the rush of playing the game with some risk (like every other thing you do in eve). You finally give them some excitement around their chosen profession.
And best yet, it stops people like yourself from coming to threads like this and using the the excuse "because CCP let it be that way" as an argument for why another way might not be better.
NO aggression for salvaging wrecks might be the way it currently works, but that certainly does not mean it is the best way. Just the current way.
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Motoko Inozowa
Gallente 0REC0RE
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Posted - 2009.05.08 04:56:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Isakova What amuses me is ninja high sec salvagers using the word carebear as an insult. Seriously, 0 risk mission runner griefing - how much more carebear can you get? Take that **** to low sec? Didn't think so.
If you only knew what griefing was. A salvager ending up in your mission isn't griefing. it's a profession. He does it, and moves on to the next guy. that isn't griefing.
the same guy following you into more missions, THAT's griefing.
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Serra Polaris
Amarr Trichomes Unlimited The Circus
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Posted - 2009.05.08 05:24:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: Serra Polaris I've heard a lot from mission runners and pilots in local is that you can make more isk/hour if you just leave your unsalvaged wrecks and start a new mission.
This only becomes true when it is faster for you to blow up battleships than to salvage them. Salvaging takes 20 seconds (1 cycle). If you can blow up a battleship in mission-space faster than this, it's time to stop salvaging. Then again, when you have that level of firepower you're probably flying a marauder and are salvaging battleship wrecks as you go.
I suppose, but there are other factors like how far away the wrecks are and whether or not you can actually salvage each one in one cycle. Sounds like you'd have one tractor beam and one salvager in the highs, which could have been used for more guns/launchers (assuming you can fit more).
Without tractor beams, ninja salvaging/looting an entire mission can take a long time even when zipping around in a frigate.
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.05.08 06:54:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Isakova I guarantee if you do 10 missions in a l4 hub, near half of them would be interrupted.
I guarantee that if you do 10 missions outside of a hub, exactly zero of them will be interrupted.
Now can we move on to the next topic please.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
Junko Togawa
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Posted - 2009.05.08 06:57:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Tippia In other words, a poor solution I'm a gankbear.
Originally by: Malcanis I accept this proposal as long as mission rewards and bounties are decreased proportionately with the reduction in risk. About a 95 0% cut would seem to be appropriate.
Originally by: Bullageddon
"Wah I want risk free iskies KB padding!"
There's risk in all aspects of money making in this game, even salvaging griefbaiting. The salvager gankbear is just the risk mission runners have to live with.
deal with it, move ondon't nerf me, I fail at EvE.
There, I fix them for u. Is moar akkurats nao.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.05.08 07:00:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer Many times it's sad to leave so much metal floating around, wondering if it will go to waste.
I think the best solution would be a timer on the wreck. Salvage it after a certain amount of time and it's ok, missioner present or not. Before that: CONCORDinated.
This allows us non-salvaging "I ain't got time" types have the option at least and let's the salvagers exercise a little patience that would be rewarding. Everybody gets what they wants, nobody has to be a weenie.
CONCORDED for salvaging a wreck? That seems a little inadequate. CCP should delete ther account, then send a ninja round to kill ther family.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.05.08 07:10:00 -
[58]
Actually perhaps the best 'compromise' would be to remove salvage from mission wrecks altogether. It would have the merit of stopping these stupid threads on a subject that multiple CCP devs have already commented on with the same answer: no flagging for salvaging.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.05.08 07:30:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Tippia on 08/05/2009 07:35:13
Originally by: Isakova I guarantee if you do 10 missions in a l4 hub, near half of them would be interrupted.
No. And I would know, because I do missions in just about all of them. I was last interrupted in July… (in Dodixie no less — hello fellas! )
Originally by: Junko Togawa I can't present a coherent argument because I know I'm wrong and don't know how to play EVE
Counter-fixed.
Originally by: Jer Bu Solution does not need to be complicated. Let me shoot at someone who salvages a wreck I created. Let me choose whether to engage or not. It might even force me to refit a little more PvP on my missions...Everyone wins.
Here's a better solution: stop assuming you're entitled to anything other than your insurance payout in a PvP game. If you can't beat the other guy to the wreck, even though you are first on site and even though know exactly when and where it's going to pop into existance, you're doing something horribly wrong. If you can't beat the other guy to the punch, you didn't deserve it. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Schalac
Caldari Apocalypse Reign
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Posted - 2009.05.08 07:42:00 -
[60]
If you see a cov ops in your mission just lock it and warp out the main tank. Agro will then be divided between you and the ninja and he won't be able to cloak. Just make sure that the ship you lock him with can take a few hits while the cov ops either warps out or gets destroyed, an since this is high sec chances are the pod will sit there long enough to get into a blaster fit destroyer and pop his pod while he *****es in local about the loss of the cov ops. SCHALAC HAS SPOKEN |
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Yonna Paris
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.08 07:57:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Isakova I guarantee if you do 10 missions in a l4 hub, near half of them would be interrupted.
One-year-old-player here. I must be doing something wrong. About half of my L4's are done in hubs, and I have never had a -single- ninja salvager interrupting. They must not like me :(
Opinion: Everything is working as intended. Mission runners should either salvage on the fly to prevent ninja'ing (as I do), -or- stop whining and accept potential loss.
Small remark/suggestion: IMHO, CCP should remove the corp ticker and yellow color from wrecks to make absolutely clear they don't belong to anyone; ownership can be restored when the wreck spawns into a can. I think this would make the mechanism a bit more clear... There could be fleet/corp issues involved, though. And maybe this has been suggested before, I dunno. In that case, accept my apologies and ignore.
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Researcher Anabiosis
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Posted - 2009.05.08 07:57:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Cutie Chaser
It is the lions job to run the hyenas off of his kill; if he'd rather share then feast then he dines with filth.
if you could explain that to Concord for us, that would be just swell.
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Shammalamma Dingdong
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Posted - 2009.05.08 08:02:00 -
[63]
Wouldn't flagging them for salvaging like it is for looting make everyone (except the Ninja Salvagers) happy?
Mission runners get to protect their stuff (if they have the stomach for it, otherwise GTFO and stop whining) and bored PvPers and/or griefers would have another way besides can-flipping to try and pick fights/tumble n00bs.
I'm probably missing something basic (I usually am) but why is everyone so opposed to the idea that salvaging someone else's wrecks, if done right, could produce more fun if it were a flaggable offense?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Shammalamma Dingdong |
Shammalamma Dingdong
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Posted - 2009.05.08 08:05:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Jer Bu Solution does not need to be complicated. Let me shoot at someone who salvages a wreck I created. Let me choose whether to engage or not. It might even force me to refit a little more PvP on my missions...Everyone wins.
BINGO!
i should have read the whole thread before responding :P
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Shammalamma Dingdong |
Prodigiosus Proditio
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Posted - 2009.05.08 08:08:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Yonna Paris
Originally by: Isakova I guarantee if you do 10 missions in a l4 hub, near half of them would be interrupted.
One-year-old-player here. I must be doing something wrong. About half of my L4's are done in hubs, and I have never had a -single- ninja salvager interrupting. They must not like me :(
Opinion: Everything is working as intended. Mission runners should either salvage on the fly to prevent ninja'ing (as I do), -or- stop whining and accept potential loss.
Small remark/suggestion: IMHO, CCP should remove the corp ticker and yellow color from wrecks to make absolutely clear they don't belong to anyone; ownership can be restored when the wreck spawns into a can. I think this would make the mechanism a bit more clear... There could be fleet/corp issues involved, though. And maybe this has been suggested before, I dunno. In that case, accept my apologies and ignore.
i have been running missions since 2005 on my main and it's never, ever happened to me either.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.05.08 08:12:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Shammalamma Dingdong I'm probably missing something basic (I usually am) but why is everyone so opposed to the idea that salvaging someone else's wrecks, if done right, could produce more fun if it were a flaggable offense?
Because it will only lead to more whining. Loot flagging was introduced as a response to theft whines — this gave rise to the concept of can flipping and even more whines. Salvage flagging is quite likely to yield the same results.
Also, the main reason is because the whiners commonly fail to present a good case for the change that can't be traced back to "I think I'm entitled to this salvage", which goes entirely against CCPs statend intent that it should be free-for-all. If anything, more competition needs to be brought into missions, eg. by removing loot ownership and tractoring rights entirely. If a way were devised to "steal" LP and mission rewards as well, that would be even better. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Merdaneth
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.08 08:52:00 -
[67]
Actually, I would love to see agents hand out the same mission to multiple players, and see whoever gets to complete the mission goals first. Competitive PvE!
Perhaps then players would be less likely to think of wrecks obviously owned by Angels or Blood Raiders as 'their loot' and 'their salvage'.
There doesn't need to be a standings reduction (or just a very small) for these missions, but they would sure encourage a bit more interaction in these mission experiences. ____
The Illusion of Freedom | The Truth about Slavery |
Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.05.08 09:02:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Shammalamma Dingdong I'm probably missing something basic (I usually am) but why is everyone so opposed to the idea that salvaging someone else's wrecks, if done right, could produce more fun if it were a flaggable offense?
Because it will only lead to more whining. Loot flagging was introduced as a response to theft whines ù this gave rise to the concept of can flipping and even more whines. Salvage flagging is quite likely to yield the same results.
Also, the main reason is because the whiners commonly fail to present a good case for the change that can't be traced back to "I think I'm entitled to this salvage", which goes entirely against CCPs statend intent that it should be free-for-all. If anything, more competition needs to be brought into missions, eg. by removing loot ownership and tractoring rights entirely. If a way were devised to "steal" LP and mission rewards as well, that would be even better.
In keeping with CCP's "claim" that eve is a sandbox type game it would make sense for mechinisms to be in place which allow the player to decide when a fight occurs.
In this circumstance, given that a wreck would flag a player to be pvp'd, the ninja salvager (player) would decide if he could be pvp'd by either salvaging or not salvaging.
The missioner (player) could decide to engage in pvp when the first player becomes flagged.
If one players accepts a risk (getting blown up for ninja salvaging) for a reward and the other player accepts a risk (trap or the salvager fighting back) for a reward then its a fair balanced system. Ganking Buddhist Nun |
Isakova
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Posted - 2009.05.08 09:04:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Shammalamma Dingdong I'm probably missing something basic (I usually am) but why is everyone so opposed to the idea that salvaging someone else's wrecks, if done right, could produce more fun if it were a flaggable offense?
Because it will only lead to more whining. Loot flagging was introduced as a response to theft whines ù this gave rise to the concept of can flipping and even more whines. Salvage flagging is quite likely to yield the same results.
Also, the main reason is because the whiners commonly fail to present a good case for the change that can't be traced back to "I think I'm entitled to this salvage", which goes entirely against CCPs statend intent that it should be free-for-all. If anything, more competition needs to be brought into missions, eg. by removing loot ownership and tractoring rights entirely. If a way were devised to "steal" LP and mission rewards as well, that would be even better.
This is not my point all, my confusion is not directed towards salvaging, which I agree works as intended, but at deadspace. Hell, if I can't use my MWD in there, how come I can be probed so damn easily? I don't want a change to the salvage mechanics, I want deadspace to be harder to probe out. How about making gates locked to mission owner / people in fleet at time of acceptance. That way, if a person doesn't want to salvage a mission and hadns it in, when the gates are destroyed the probing salvagers get to go wild. Until then, sit patiently. Or back to my prvious argument of not letting them change ship.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.05.08 09:06:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona If one players accepts a risk (getting blown up for ninja salvaging) for a reward and the other player accepts a risk (trap or the salvager fighting back) for a reward then its a fair balanced system.
The current system is fair and balanced:
The mission runner can get the rewards for no risk — he just has to beat the salvager. The salvager can get the rewards for no risk — he just has to beat the mission runner. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.05.08 09:31:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Isakova
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Shammalamma Dingdong I'm probably missing something basic (I usually am) but why is everyone so opposed to the idea that salvaging someone else's wrecks, if done right, could produce more fun if it were a flaggable offense?
Because it will only lead to more whining. Loot flagging was introduced as a response to theft whines ù this gave rise to the concept of can flipping and even more whines. Salvage flagging is quite likely to yield the same results.
Also, the main reason is because the whiners commonly fail to present a good case for the change that can't be traced back to "I think I'm entitled to this salvage", which goes entirely against CCPs statend intent that it should be free-for-all. If anything, more competition needs to be brought into missions, eg. by removing loot ownership and tractoring rights entirely. If a way were devised to "steal" LP and mission rewards as well, that would be even better.
This is not my point all, my confusion is not directed towards salvaging, which I agree works as intended, but at deadspace. Hell, if I can't use my MWD in there, how come I can be probed so damn easily? I don't want a change to the salvage mechanics, I want deadspace to be harder to probe out. How about making gates locked to mission owner / people in fleet at time of acceptance. That way, if a person doesn't want to salvage a mission and hadns it in, when the gates are destroyed the probing salvagers get to go wild. Until then, sit patiently. Or back to my prvious argument of not letting them change ship.
You're still arguing from the perspective that a mission runner has some kind of a prior right to salvage, when the devs have repeatedly and definitely asserted that they don't, and that this is specifically a deliberate choice on their behalf.
Salvage was not introduced to increase the rewards of mission running. it was introduced as a new profession.
Perhaps you'd like to justify the change by introducing evidence that mission running is too risky, or that it doesn't give enough rewards for the level of ISK, or that it pays poorly compared to other hi-sec PvE activities...?
Yeah, I thought not.
One interesting consequence of the change you want would be that if someone got killed by pirates, but his friends managed to drive the pirates away, he could be flagged to the pirates for salvaging his own wreck.
A nice illustration of how silly the game effects would be.
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Tatsa
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.08 09:48:00 -
[72]
I will not argue that L4s are hard, by no means are they hard. But ninja salvaging is easier. With very little skills (and cognative ability, judging by some of the ones I've run into) I have recently started running level 4s, the time it's taken for me to train the skills / get standings up etc far outpaces the skills required to ninja salvaging.
A quick think makes me you could succesfully ninja salvage on a trial account. As such, easy access to risk free (more so than the mission, as 9 times out of 10 the mission runner has the aggro) and quick high level salvage. A direct result of this is we see more and more ninja salvagers, yes EVE will restablise itself, and we can just move systems (tho the salvagers are just doing the same). Last night, I got ninja salvaged twice in one mission in a system next to Dodixie, fair enough it's part of the game. But the second person came in and started shooting the NPCs too, I was actually a bit sick of the msision seeing both rooms be looted by two different players from different corps so was grateful for the speed in clearing it up and get the hell outta there haha, but I doubt that was his intention.
Reading this thread the only counter argument is that L4s are risk free and easy so ninja salvaging is fair, but with less time invested and possible equal isk/hour gains (I know, sorry isk/h yawn) I'd argue that it's even easier risk free carebear activity.
Who knows, I am training another account to salvage on the go, and working on a new agent now, which will sort my problems right out. I suggest everyone do the same, haha. |
Jennz
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Posted - 2009.05.08 09:51:00 -
[73]
As an aside if you steal from a wreck and thereby get flagged to someone who then aggresses you, do you get a security status hit? Or do hits only apply when you proactively attack someone (which you couldn't do in high-sec anyway without being Concorded)
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.05.08 10:08:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Tippia on 08/05/2009 10:09:01
Originally by: Tatsa I will not argue that L4s are hard, by no means are they hard. But ninja salvaging is easier.
[…]
Reading this thread the only counter argument is that L4s are risk free and easy so ninja salvaging is fair, but with less time invested and possible equal isk/hour gains (I know, sorry isk/h yawn) I'd argue that it's even easier risk free carebear activity.
…and the balance against that is the guaranteed returns you get from running missions that the (supposedly) non-invested salvager can never get. You get guaranteed mission rewards and bonuses. Guaranteed LP. Guaranteed bounties. Guaranteed status and sec gain. Guaranteed ownership of loot.
As Malc keeps pointing out: salvage is not a part of the mission rewards.
As a mission runner, you already get rewarded for your skill/grind/equipment investment. If you want to get the additional income salvage provides, you need to earn in competition with others going after it. The investment (or lack thereof) for partaking in this little competition is the same for both sides — if anything it's easier for the mission runner since he's already on-site and he has a head start. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Lana Torrin
Minmatar Republic Military Skool
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Posted - 2009.05.08 10:29:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Junko Togawa Here's an idea.
1)Change all missions to mission deadspace, requiring the passing of an acceleration gate. 2)Make it impossible to pass an acceleration gate unless you are the person who accepted the mission or are fleeted with the person who has it. 3)Remove flagging for can theft on wrecks spawned in mission deadspace and make it possible for anyone to tractor them. 4)Make it possible to scan down and warp to wrecks.
Result: Those who want to keep their loot and salvage secure can return to the mission deadspace before turn-in and clean up. Those who do not can turn in their mission, and the scavengers can then fight amongst each other over who gets the leftovers.
Summation: Happy carebears get safe salvage, true salvagers get a new abundance of wrecks unlike any other, gankbears looking to grief runners get to emorage on forums for my lulz.
First off.. Sorry for replying to something that was on the first page when were way past that now..
Secondly, I have an idea for your idea.. **** off back to wow.. Seriously. If you want instances then you should be playing an MMO that has them. I _DONT_ want instances, so I choose to play EVE.
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Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.05.08 10:40:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 08/05/2009 09:08:47
Originally by: Infinity Ziona If one players accepts a risk (getting blown up for ninja salvaging) for a reward and the other player accepts a risk (trap or the salvager fighting back) for a reward then its a fair balanced system.
The current system is fair and balanced:
The mission runner can get the rewards for no risk ù he just has to beat the salvager. The salvager can get the rewards for no risk ù he just has to beat the mission
There is risk. Theres also a crapload of training involved to get to a stage you can do them 'without risk' aka reduced risk but thats the same with anything in EvE.
Once again, NPC's should not be the ones deciding when pvp can occur if both parties are willing to pvp. It should always be the players in that situation. Ganking Buddhist Nun |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.05.08 10:41:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Infinity Ziona There is risk. Theres also a crapload of training involved to get to a stage you can do them 'without risk' aka reduced risk but thats the same with anything in EvE.
…and as mentioned, that part of the investment is already covered by the various mission rewards. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Kaivos
Pyydys
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Posted - 2009.05.08 10:43:00 -
[78]
i stopped reading when you said "overpowered"..
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Ohmebius
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Posted - 2009.05.08 11:16:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Ohmebius on 08/05/2009 11:19:42 just tried my first lvl 4 mission. all salvage stolen by 4 day old noob :( if this is the norm then i am not going to bother. had the cheek to then offer me 50 - 50. for stealing my salvage!
also on a side note he started dropping cans of his own? i assumed he was baiting me so a fleet could jump in and finish me
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Ohmebius
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Posted - 2009.05.08 11:22:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Tippia As Malc keeps pointing out: salvage is not a part of the mission rewards.
As a mission runner, you already get rewarded for your skill/grind/equipment investment. If you want to get the additional income salvage provides, you need to earn in competition with others going after it. The investment (or lack thereof) for partaking in this little competition is the same for both sides ù if anything it's easier for the mission runner since he's already on-site and he has a head start.
if that is the case then can we stop the whining about high sec lvl 4's paying to well?
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.05.08 11:27:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Ohmebius just tried my first lvl 4 mission. all salvage stolen by 4 day old noob :(
No. It was most likely an alt, not a noob.
Quote: if this is the norm then i am not going to bother.
It isn't.
Quote: had the cheek to then offer me 50 - 50. for stealing my salvage!
If he stole your salvage, you'd be able to shoot him. As it is, I suspect he offered a 50-50 deal on his salvage since you had been kind enough to create some wrecks.
Quote: also on a side note he started dropping cans of his own? i assumed he was baiting me so a fleet could jump in and finish me
Depends what he was salvaging. Could also have been that he dumped a lot of useless metal scraps. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Foundation Vox
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Posted - 2009.05.08 11:36:00 -
[82]
i have never nija salvaged but i don't think they should change it. if a ninja shows up warp out and let him deal with the agrro. warp back and repeat until the ninja gets tired (they always do). i have had plenty of fun discouraging these types and i always win. :]
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EVEHelpisSeriousBusiness
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Posted - 2009.05.08 11:39:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Isakova First off let me say, I've done it and I've had it done to me. Since resubbing my second account it's never an issue but my question is as follows.
Generally overpowered in EVE means far too easy to do, profitable/useful with very little risk. People are trying to get your mom and your sister pushed to low sec for this very reason.
People got Falcons nerfed for this reason. Webbers, drones too.
Probing out your mom is so easy newbies do it with great success. It doesn't flagging me to probe your mom (I know CCPs stand on this, it makes sense) it is intentionally done in these unbalanced situations (;)) because of falcon, and if they choose to steal some nice action, they will be away before they've even lost 50% shields because your mom is on the pill.
I don't know what to suggest as its a fun game mechanic, but its completely risk free, ridiculously easy to do, and in many cases highly profitable without the investment in ships / time / standing gains/losses to get your mom and/or sister. I tried it with my second account while running an L4 mission and she was easy. This is far too open for abuse, and is getting to the point where theres 2 ninjas for every 10 minute slot with your mom.
Wait, what?
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.05.08 11:56:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Ohmebius Edited by: Ohmebius on 08/05/2009 11:19:42 just tried my first lvl 4 mission. all salvage stolen by 4 day old noob :( if this is the norm then i am not going to bother. had the cheek to then offer me 50 - 50. for stealing my salvage!
also on a side note he started dropping cans of his own? i assumed he was baiting me so a fleet could jump in and finish me
(1) He didn't "steal" it; it's not yours. Salvage belongs to the person who creates it from a wreck.
(2) 50/50 is a great deal, and I would cheerfully work with the guy on this basis. He does all the work and you still get 50% of the take? Sounds pretty good.
(3) The cans contain the loot from the wrecks which does belong to you. If he had taken the loot he would have been stealing.
Actually I have posted before that if someone wanted to start a reputable corp that specialised in doing exactly this - cleaning up my wrecks in return for giving me a cut, I would be more than happy to do business with them.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.05.08 11:57:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Ohmebius
Originally by: Tippia As Malc keeps pointing out: salvage is not a part of the mission rewards.
As a mission runner, you already get rewarded for your skill/grind/equipment investment. If you want to get the additional income salvage provides, you need to earn in competition with others going after it. The investment (or lack thereof) for partaking in this little competition is the same for both sides ù if anything it's easier for the mission runner since he's already on-site and he has a head start.
if that is the case then can we stop the whining about high sec lvl 4's paying to well?
Oh no. No, I dont think so.
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Tiny Tove
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Posted - 2009.05.08 11:57:00 -
[86]
As is often the irony, it was the carebears who cried and whined and begged and bawled at CCP to allow the salvaging of wrecks without having to steal the contents first, because nasty pies were using the mechanic to kill bears.
Now nasty pies are using the mechanic to steal from bears.
This is a fact.
If there was some way of getting a bearbrain to understand, we would have done it by now.
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Grez
Minmatar Core Contingency
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Posted - 2009.05.08 11:58:00 -
[87]
Topic name makes me cringe.
Ninja looting :/
Also, nerf bat, not hammer. --- Grez: I shot the sheriff Kalazar: But I could not lock the Deputy BECAUSE OF FALCON |
Shemmy
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.05.08 12:04:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Isakova I don't know what the solution would be, but I guarantee if you do 10 missions in a l4 hub, near half of them would be interrupted.
I've not seen that. Perhaps I've just been in different mission areas, but I've missioned my sec status back up from -4.5 to -2 in Umokka area, and only once had my mission interrupted, so I just warped out and rejected the mission - no odds to me, I was after the sec anyway and got plenty of bounties from what I'd already killed. I left them to salvage the wrecks and started another mission. I was slightly miffed, but only because I had to fly 2 systems back to the agent.
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Zaknussem
Intrum Industria
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Posted - 2009.05.08 12:14:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Zaknussem on 08/05/2009 12:14:08 The solution to these problems are coming, but it'll be a while until it shows, with Ambulation at the earliest.
The Sleepers are a test of the new NPC AI. This AI will eventually make its way into missions. When it does, expect ninja looting/salvaging to pretty much disappear, as rats will now target new ships that enter the mission zone. Better yet, more NPC ships may spawn because of the new ship entering into the mission.
Direct result? Risk will be involved in missions. Problem solved.
L4 missions will only be moved into low-sec if CCP are incompetent.
EDIT: Typo. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.05.08 12:25:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Shemmy
Originally by: Isakova I don't know what the solution would be, but I guarantee if you do 10 missions in a l4 hub, near half of them would be interrupted.
I've not seen that. Perhaps I've just been in different mission areas, but I've missioned my sec status back up from -4.5 to -2 in Umokka area, and only once had my mission interrupted, so I just warped out and rejected the mission - no odds to me, I was after the sec anyway and got plenty of bounties from what I'd already killed. I left them to salvage the wrecks and started another mission. I was slightly miffed, but only because I had to fly 2 systems back to the agent.
I don't eer recall seeing a ninja salvager, but I had the Quafe from "Cargo delivery" stolen once, and was tackled by a Tri suicide gank squad who scanned my ship and advised me to "learn to fit something decent" and warped off (I was mildly offended by this)
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Esk Esme
Caldari Intelligent Concepts Inc
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Posted - 2009.05.08 12:38:00 -
[91]
more tear's of joy
think ill come salvage your mission homw just to bug u for kicks l8tr 2day lol
all your salvage belongs to us WAAAA
more tears pls OP
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Draxyl Icharu
Gallente Icharu Industries
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Posted - 2009.05.08 12:54:00 -
[92]
Originally by: THE L0CK I feel I belong in this thread.
Brilliant! +1
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Ruu
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.08 13:01:00 -
[93]
Quite a few people here stated that Salvaging is a profession.
Quite a few people in a thread I started about creating a 'dedicated' Salvaging ship (not some make shift job) said that Salvaging is NOT a profession.
So how about some clarification here?
If it is a profession, I want to see dedicated salvager ships please.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.05.08 13:04:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Ruu
Quite a few people here stated that Salvaging is a profession.
Quite a few people in a thread I started about creating a 'dedicated' Salvaging ship (not some make shift job) said that Salvaging is NOT a profession.
So how about some clarification here?
If it is a profession, I want to see dedicated salvager ships please.
Sounds good. T2 destroyer with hacking/salvage/archeo bonuses plx!
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.05.08 13:12:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Zaknussem Edited by: Zaknussem on 08/05/2009 12:14:08 The solution to these problems are coming, but it'll be a while until it shows, with Ambulation at the earliest.
The Sleepers are a test of the new NPC AI. This AI will eventually make its way into missions. When it does, expect ninja looting/salvaging to pretty much disappear, as rats will now target new ships that enter the mission zone. Better yet, more NPC ships may spawn because of the new ship entering into the mission.
Direct result? Risk will be involved in missions. Problem solved.
L4 missions will only be moved into low-sec if CCP are incompetent.
EDIT: Typo.
I hope you're right, as I get much of my ISK from missioning and it's insanely dull.
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Neamus
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Posted - 2009.05.08 13:28:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Neamus on 08/05/2009 13:33:49
Originally by: Isakova I can probe out mission space, get in, bm it, warp out, get my salvager, warp back again, start salvaging while the mission owner has full room aggro.
If I see his drones heading back to him, I know he's on his way out. I can loot too, I know he wont shoot me because it's futile, would be quicker to warp out and hope rats give aggro. There's really nothing a person can do to counter it. I think if probing out deadspace was made harder, or riskier, I don't care about the changes to the mechanics, but it the sheer ease of it and the amount of newbies doing it, it's become ridiculous.
Its annoying for the mission runner, and no doubt highly amusing for the ninja. When ever I've been ninja'd I've found it irritating, but it at least adds a little excitement to an otherwise dull activity.
If you want to cut it out the three main ways are...
1) Salvager alt (Destroyer or Battlecruiser are ideal)
2) If you want to get serious about mission running train for an purchase a Marauder (everything a mission runner needs in a single ship). If you cant afford one or just don't want one, they try a Dominix, closest to the best and most versatile mission running BS in EvE.
3) Stop being school girls, move out to 0.0, scan some plexes and start earning proper isk.
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Emerhyz
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Posted - 2009.05.08 13:38:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Emerhyz on 08/05/2009 13:39:08 Do as I do, As the ninja salvager starts flying around, blow up all wrecks. If you can't have the loot, don't let him have the loot.
New Idea for CCP:
Have cruiser sized drones with their own npc salvaging modules come into missions from time to time (spawn them). This way, EVERYONE experiences ninja salvagers. This way, everyone who salvages wrecks have drone issues (Kill them first?). Maybe they'll even have weapons.
Oh the many ways to **** people off.
Edit: Added last comment.
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Jer Bu
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Posted - 2009.05.08 21:38:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 08/05/2009 07:35:13
Originally by: Isakova I guarantee if you do 10 missions in a l4 hub, near half of them would be interrupted.
No. And I would know, because I do missions in just about all of them. I was last interrupted in Julyà (in Dodixie no less ù hello fellas! )
Originally by: Junko Togawa I can't present a coherent argument because I know I'm wrong and don't know how to play EVE
Counter-fixed.
Originally by: Jer Bu Solution does not need to be complicated. Let me shoot at someone who salvages a wreck I created. Let me choose whether to engage or not. It might even force me to refit a little more PvP on my missions...Everyone wins.
Here's a better solution: stop assuming you're entitled to anything other than your insurance payout in a PvP game. If you can't beat the other guy to the wreck, even though you are first on site and even though know exactly when and where it's going to pop into existance, you're doing something horribly wrong. If you can't beat the other guy to the punch, you didn't deserve it.
Making cargo flagged and salvage not is counter intuitive. Stop assuming that just because something is one way now, that it is the right way. By your logic, NOTHING should be flagged. I like that logic, but it is counter to CCP's current rule set.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.05.08 21:50:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Jer Bu By your logic, NOTHING should be flagged. I like that logic, but it is counter to CCP's current rule set.
Not just by my logic — by every other logic concerning wreck ownership. NPC loot is the anomaly here since it gives aggression to people who have nothing to do with the contents of the wreck. It makes more sense to remove loot-theft aggression than any other change. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Herzog Wolfhammer
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Posted - 2009.05.08 23:05:00 -
[100]
I am confused.
So many times I find a den of serpentis of a drone pile, clean it all up, and then get on local and say "Hey, lot's of stuff floating around here and I don't salvage".
This is high sec I speak of. Not asking for cost. If more wrecks are salvaged, more materials means more production that brings the prices down. Austrian Economics 101.
And.... no answer.
This must be mainly an issue for noob-space hubs or systems with corps involved in production activities with lots of alts.
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Anne Cormache
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Posted - 2009.05.08 23:37:00 -
[101]
So, after four pages of whining, it comes down to: "more rules to protect my elistist @ss's salvage." Got a better solution: don't like the rules in place in Empire? Get out of Empire, and go somewhere that has no rules. Problem solved.
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Chraiz
Gallente Esquires Of Questionable Intention
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Posted - 2009.05.09 00:29:00 -
[102]
Honestly while it might be annoying the term salvage in itself suggests first come, first served rights.
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Bullageddon
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.05.09 01:57:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Chraiz Honestly while it might be annoying the term salvage in itself suggests first come, first served rights.
logic? NOT IN THIS THREAD! === This Space For Lease or Sale. |
Sanre Echei
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Posted - 2009.05.09 05:39:00 -
[104]
I think what Isakova means is that salvaging allows a character to make millions while only days old. Even if their ship gets blown up what they lose isn't even one-tenth of what they can salvage in a whole mission. It's risk-free instant millions for noobs. I don't mind ninja salvaging, but getting the salvaging skill should take longer since it gives profits on par with many months of skilltraining in mining/missioning skills. It's simply out of tune in the amount of profit you can get for your time spent in other activities.
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E Vile
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Posted - 2009.05.09 07:30:00 -
[105]
Edited by: E Vile on 09/05/2009 07:33:46 No mission runner carries a scram? Speak for yourself. Some players know how to watch their own back more then you give credit for.
I do however feel I should have the right to shoot someone salvaging my wrecks just like stealing loot. People need to be flagged for salavging others wrecks.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.05.09 08:01:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Sanre Echei I think what Isakova means is that salvaging allows a character to make millions while only days old. Even if their ship gets blown up what they lose isn't even one-tenth of what they can salvage in a whole mission. It's risk-free instant millions for noobs. I don't mind ninja salvaging, but getting the salvaging skill should take longer since it gives profits on par with many months of skilltraining in mining/missioning skills. It's simply out of tune in the amount of profit you can get for your time spent in other activities.
Hi-sec missioners don't get any right whatsoever to complain about risk/reward.
The same illogical rules that protect vastly expensive solo, semi-AFK faction BS shooting hordes of pirate fleets in "safe" space are the same illogical rules that protect ninja salvagers.
Once again: if you want to claim all the salvage, mission in lo-sec/0.0, then you can shoot ninja nubs all you like.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.05.09 08:02:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Sanre Echei I think what Isakova means is that salvaging allows a character to make millions while only days old.
[…]
It's simply out of tune in the amount of profit you can get for your time spent in other activities.
Trading. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.05.09 08:02:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Malcanis on 09/05/2009 08:02:42
Originally by: E Vile Edited by: E Vile on 09/05/2009 07:33:46 No mission runner carries a scram? Speak for yourself. Some players know how to watch their own back more then you give credit for.
I do however feel I should have the right to shoot someone salvaging my wrecks just like stealing loot. People need to be flagged for salavging others wrecks.
I feel I should have the right to shoot any gallante pilot, regardless of where he is or what he's done. People need to be flagged for being at war.
Oh wait, that's right: my "feelings" don't come into it. It's the law that counts.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.05.09 08:03:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Sanre Echei I think what Isakova means is that salvaging allows a character to make millions while only days old.
[à]
It's simply out of tune in the amount of profit you can get for your time spent in other activities.
Trading.
Scamming
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles Zzz
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Posted - 2009.05.09 08:04:00 -
[110]
Reading between the lines here, it sounds as though the OP is saying 'My level 4 missions aren't secure enough and don't pay enough'.
Compared to most other isk sources in the game, they're fantastically unbalanced. None of the others has the potential to support hundreds of players in a single system, all earning 20m-30m per hour. The phenomenon of ninja salvaging is a symptom, not a problem in itself.
I see nothing wrong with giving new players an easy way to make some isk if it helps get them into the game. Eventually they'll either get bored with salvaging, or find something more profitable/interesting to do. --- 20:1 mineral compression ISRC Racing, Season 7 - schedule |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.05.09 11:37:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Sanre Echei I think what Isakova means is that salvaging allows a character to make millions while only days old. Even if their ship gets blown up what they lose isn't even one-tenth of what they can salvage in a whole mission. It's risk-free instant millions for noobs. I don't mind ninja salvaging, but getting the salvaging skill should take longer since it gives profits on par with many months of skilltraining in mining/missioning skills. It's simply out of tune in the amount of profit you can get for your time spent in other activities.
I'm not sure that's an argument you'll want to introduce, since level 4 missions pay even more than ninja salvaging...
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Spurty
Caldari Ore Mongers BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2009.05.09 12:15:00 -
[112]
i've ninja looted lots of missions and usually, the person running the mission never returns anyway.
Also, some mission runners blitz missions.
What does that mean? Means its freaking risky lol.
some rooms still have lots of towers and ships in them. There is plenty of risk ninja looting if you loot the wrong person's mission left overs.
Angel Extras are the best to salvage (Alloy trit bars = isk!)
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Thus I AM BETTER THAN YOU.
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Suitonia
Gallente Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2009.05.09 12:38:00 -
[113]
Making Mission deadspace inaccessible or harder is a damn terrible idea and has many knock-on effects such as making mission runners invincible in 0.0/lowsec etc.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.05.09 13:05:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Suitonia Making Mission deadspace inaccessible or harder is a damn terrible idea and has many knock-on effects such as making mission runners invincible in 0.0/lowsec etc.
yeah I think that's pretty much what they're after.
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Gunnanmon
Gallente UNITED STAR SYNDICATE
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Posted - 2009.05.09 15:27:00 -
[115]
Originally by: THE L0CK I feel I belong in this thread.
iatl Signature locked for discussing moderation. Navigator
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Zey Nadar
Gallente Stormwatch Galactic Enforcers of Serenity
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Posted - 2009.05.09 15:35:00 -
[116]
Edited by: Zey Nadar on 09/05/2009 15:35:53
Originally by: Tippia The current system is fair and balanced:
The mission runner can get the rewards for no risk ù he just has to beat the salvager. The salvager can get the rewards for no risk ù he just has to beat the mission runner.
What the hell? First I say that I have never had my missions ninjasalvaged but above sentence is completely out of whack. The ninjasalvager is not affected by the rats whereas the missioner has not only seen the effort to unlock the mission agent by grinding standing whichever way, spawn the deadpsace that wouldnt otherwise exist, and fight the rats. Ninjasalvager spends few minutes probing the deadspace and shows up to reap the rewards with no danger whatsoever. Explain what is balanced in that scenario.
ps. I cant be bothered to mission myself, its too boring and not rewarding enough.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.05.09 15:50:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Zey Nadar The ninjasalvager is not affected by the rats whereas the missioner has not only seen the effort to unlock the mission agent by grinding standing whichever way, spawn the deadpsace that wouldnt otherwise exist, and fight the rats.
…and is, as mentioned numerous times, rewarded through the pre-existing mission rewards.
Quote: Explain what is balanced in that scenario.
The effort to unlock and complete the mission is balanced against the rewards for doing high-level missions and killing higher-level rats (although some would indeed argue that this part isn't balanced and that these rewards are far too high for the effort).
The salvage is a separate component and not part of those rewards. The effort to get it is the same for both parties: train the skill, fit the module, be the first to reach the wreck (and it could be argued that this part actually isn't balanced either since the mission runner don't have to scan the things down).
So sure, maybe it could use some balancing: reduce the mission rewards and make it easier for ninja salvagers to find their targets. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Lianoras
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Posted - 2009.05.09 15:51:00 -
[118]
I have one problem with ninja salvaging: return on investment. It requires minimal isk and sp investment, isn't player skill intensive and provides huge rewards with minimal risk as long as the ninja pays a minimum of attention.
Salvaging doesn't flag and that's fine. But the risk vs reward balance is off here.
Possible solution: anyone coming into a mission gets partial aggro from rats. It's not a perfect solution as it would hurt gang mission runners, but it would be better than the current situation.
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Eternum Praetorian
Retribution. Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.09 16:06:00 -
[119]
So so many opinions....
But a max skilled probe/salvaging alt in an NPC corp can only be answered with a blaster fitted catalyst. This tactic will req you to up your sec status and thus can be done only so often. Not exactly balanced. The carebears whine about it... but then again the **** broke PVP'ers whine about them being carebears and rich as god.
CCP would only nerf it if there were a ridiculous abundance. I mean way way more then there is even now.
In the end EVE is a sim for life, and life more often then not is not fair. CCP is not going to do anything that will make ISk making in empire easier. They will however allow for small little nerfs and mechanics that will antagonize mission runners in the safety of empire.
Ninja salvaging + Low sec Battleship rats + scams in Jita all = attempts to get people to have more risk in the game without the inevitable universal-wide rage quits that would follow a full blown LV 4 empire nerf.
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Milla Jovo
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Posted - 2009.05.09 16:51:00 -
[120]
Why are missions scannable in the first place? Being able to scan mission runners never made sense to me. I have been playing for about 2 years and use a salvager alt whenever I run missions. This is not a whine. I usualy just ignore nija's the few time they have come into my missions.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.05.09 16:57:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Milla Jovo Why are missions scannable in the first place?
Because they're not supposed to be safe. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Milla Jovo
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Posted - 2009.05.09 17:03:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Milla Jovo on 09/05/2009 17:06:10
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Milla Jovo Why are missions scannable in the first place?
Because they're not supposed to be safe.
But ninja's don't make it any unsafer, the only unsafe thing is the npc's
Ninja's don't even flash red.
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Concorduck
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.09 17:12:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Milla Jovo Edited by: Milla Jovo on 09/05/2009 17:07:28 Edited by: Milla Jovo on 09/05/2009 17:06:10
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Milla Jovo Why are missions scannable in the first place?
Because they're not supposed to be safe.
But ninja's don't make it any unsafer, the only unsafe thing is the npc's
Ninja's don't even flash red.
You are using the wrong analogy
Rats don't flash red either. -----------------------------------------
Originally by: Crumplecorn Contact the CSM about it, voting themselves into disbandment wouldn't be pushing the boundaries of absurdity for them.
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bitters much
Nekkid Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.09 17:34:00 -
[124]
No one forces you to leave wrecks behind. The "usual" mission ship has 8 highs so you have allways 2 spares for traktor and salvager. The thing that ticks you off is the fact that "salvaging on the fly" would drop your isk/hour ratio therefor you whine here because your current "rush mission -> come back with salvage/loot ship" isn`t a 100% safe income cos someone could salvage the wrecks you left behind.
Stop undocking then no one can harm you and "your" wrecks any longer.
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Milla Jovo
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Posted - 2009.05.09 17:59:00 -
[125]
Edited by: Milla Jovo on 09/05/2009 18:01:16 Dude Rats never flash red,,, they are already red.
Ninja salvagers are s****of the universe. They are like the trash diggers in RL that go through my trash cans before the trash man comes to take the stuff away.
Think of them as the being on the low end of the IQ scale, just picking up what ever other pilots leave behind. Cuz thatÆs all they seem to be good at. Otherwise theyÆd be doing other stuff. Like there own missions.
If they actually talked to an agent then they would get the salvage and the loot and the bounties and the reward from the agent and also the bonus. But they donÆt have a high enough IQ to understand this. So they just take what they can.
I use a 2 account for my salvager. So I run the missions pretty fast but if the ninjaÆs bother u too much u can look around and find good agents at less populated systems, it takes looking around but u can find them. For me I like the added difficult level in trying to salvage before the Trash Diggers show up. ThatÆs what ninjaÆs should be called, Trash Diggers. They call themselves ninjaÆs for self glamorization. LOL
On a side note, I some times wonder how old some of the posters are in RL?
edit....Wow, that bad word filter sucks!!!! that was not even a bad word
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Zey Nadar
Gallente Stormwatch Galactic
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Posted - 2009.05.29 13:42:00 -
[126]
Edited by: Zey Nadar on 29/05/2009 13:42:10
Originally by: Tippia The effort to unlock and complete the mission is balanced against the rewards for doing high-level missions and killing higher-level rats (although some would indeed argue that this part isn't balanced and that these rewards are far too high for the effort).
The salvage is a separate component and not part of those rewards.
No it is not separate, because the salvage is not only a considerably large source of income in addition to the bounties (there are none for rogue drones for example) and it WOULDNT exist if the mission runner hadn't unlocked and cleared the mission! The reason that salvage exists in there in the first place is because of the work of the mission runner. The only reason that it isn't the 'property' of the missionrunner is some wacko in-character story reason which is imo, quite flaky.
I dont know about you, but for me the mission rewards by themselves wouldnt make missions worth doing.
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Zey Nadar
Gallente Stormwatch Galactic
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Posted - 2009.05.29 13:44:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Milla Jovo Why are missions scannable in the first place?
Because they're not supposed to be safe.
But salvaging other peoples wrecks completely safely is not a problem for you?
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Southern Suzy
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.05.29 13:47:00 -
[128]
just dont use hubs, plenty of other places with good agents where there are no ninja salvagers So wait this is the end of my post allready?
I'm not in multiple alliances to spy! I'm in them so I'll always be on the winning team |
Von Kapiche
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.05.29 14:03:00 -
[129]
Sleeper AI will solve everything, if they get it right. More risk, more variety, more fun.
Stop being so anal about ISK/hr & treat someone in your mission as some competition in a little game of it's own. I like to see if I can get them blown up, wrecks my earning speed, but so what? it's something different to do. I managed to pod someone with an exploding building, where else in highsec can you blow someone's pod without any repercussions? :)
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wowtard
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Posted - 2009.05.29 15:06:00 -
[130]
"Is that...? No! Son of a *****! A ninja salvager! I'm going to, going to, to, to t t t b b b-bwhaaaaaa, bwaaaaaaaaaa bwaaaaaaaaaaa, bwaaaaaaaaaaa! *sniffle* Booooooooohooohooo! Booooooooohooohooo! Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!! Why?! Why?! Booooooooohoooooooo booooooooooooooooohooooooooooo. Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!! Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!! Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!"
Thanks for bringing it to the forums. Again.
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Antoine Roquentin
Spaceship Lullaby
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Posted - 2009.05.29 15:23:00 -
[131]
I have the perfect solution: move all level 4 missions to low sec. Then you could just shoot the ninja looters.
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Schayol Sunkeeper
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Posted - 2009.05.29 15:25:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Milla Jovo Edited by: Milla Jovo on 09/05/2009 18:01:16 Dude Rats never flash red,,, they are already red.
Ninja salvagers are s****of the universe. They are like the trash diggers in RL that go through my trash cans before the trash man comes to take the stuff away.
Think of them as the being on the low end of the IQ scale, just picking up what ever other pilots leave behind. Cuz thatÆs all they seem to be good at. Otherwise theyÆd be doing other stuff. Like there own missions.
If they actually talked to an agent then they would get the salvage and the loot and the bounties and the reward from the agent and also the bonus. But they donÆt have a high enough IQ to understand this. So they just take what they can.
I use a 2 account for my salvager. So I run the missions pretty fast but if the ninjaÆs bother u too much u can look around and find good agents at less populated systems, it takes looking around but u can find them. For me I like the added difficult level in trying to salvage before the Trash Diggers show up. ThatÆs what ninjaÆs should be called, Trash Diggers. They call themselves ninjaÆs for self glamorization. LOL
On a side note, I some times wonder how old some of the posters are in RL?
edit....Wow, that bad word filter sucks!!!! that was not even a bad word
your resistance only makes my ***** harder
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Drunk Driver
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.05.29 15:26:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Antoine Roquentin I have the perfect solution: move all level 4 missions to low sec. Then you could just shoot the ninja looters.
I expect you wouldn't last long enough to generate much loot in low sec.
Which in a weird sort of way solves the problem of ninja looting.
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RevJim
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.05.29 15:45:00 -
[134]
A am a mission runner, in a hub, my missions attract salvage thieves about 1 in 3 missions. Personally I have no problem with so called ninja salvagers, it is allowed by CCP as a mini-profession.
However, when they steal the loot and consequently become flagged, there is a 99% chance they have a corpie standing by in a CS or bigger waiting for you to shoot them, they do not steal loot for isk, they steal it to try and gank mission runners knowing full well there is almost zero risk, PvE fitted BS's are no match for a PvP ship, no scram and usually no web therefore no danger.
For this reason I usually allow ninja salvagers unless I'm bored, then I play the 'wait till he's nearly at the wreck... BOOM! wreck gone', rinse repeat until he sods off.
However if he steals loot and becomes flagged, there is little I can do about it, by the time I dock and swap ships they are long gone. If I shoot, I die as his buddy warps in to kill me. A thorny dilema, shoot or not?
As for the carebear tears from the "It's MY salvage!!" crowd, how about having wrecks that flag until the mission runner leaves the area? I suspect this would cause more mission runners to complain about the loot stealing/gank issue.
There isn't a solution, so live with it. Or as some posters have pointed out, mission elsewhere not in a hub.
RevJim
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Elithria
Gallente Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.05.29 16:18:00 -
[135]
Not this thread again. It always ends in the same way.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.05.29 16:29:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 29/05/2009 16:30:24
Originally by: Isakova First off let me say, I've done it and I've had it done to me. Since resubbing my second account it's never an issue but my question is as follows.
Generally overpowered in EVE means far too easy to do, profitable/useful with very little risk. People are trying to get L4s pushed to low sec for this very reason.
People got Falcons nerfed for this reason. Webbers, drones too.
Ninja salvaging. Probing out deadspace is so easy newbies do it with great success. It doesn't flagging you to salvage another person wreck (I know CCPs stand on this, it makes sense) it is intentionally done in these unbalanced L4 missions (;)) because noone can aggro them, and if they choose to steal some nice drop, they will be away before they've even lost 50% shields because no mission runner carries a scram.
I don't know what to suggest as its a fun game mechanic, but its completely risk free, ridiculously easy to do, and in many cases highly profitable. L4 mission loot and salvage without the investment in ships / time / standing gains/losses to get them. I tried it with my second account while running an L4 mission and it was easy. This is far too open for abuse, and is getting to the point where theres 2 ninjas for every 10 mission runner in a hub.
Ninjasalvaging and ninjalooting IS imbalanced, you're right. But all the imbalance stems from level 4 missions. When missions get the nerf they deserve, ninja salvaging and ninjalooting will be nerfed.
Though missionrunners -could- carry a scram if they really wanted to.
Quote: If I shoot, I die as his buddy warps in to kill me. A thorny dilema, shoot or not?
Should relearn the aggro rules there champ.
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Marlenus
Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.05.29 16:46:00 -
[137]
By the Jovians, are there still people in 2009 who think salvagers in their missions might be "an oversight"? Who still use terms like "salvage thieves", even?
It must be time for this:
Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."
Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.
Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)
------------------ Ironfleet.com |
baltec1
Antares Shipyards Hoodlums Associates
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Posted - 2009.05.29 16:54:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Milla Jovo
But ninja's don't make it any unsafer, the only unsafe thing is the npc's
Ninja's don't even flash red.
You are using the wrong analogy
Depends. I know of a guy who made billions killing mission runners in high sec mission hubs.
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skye orionis
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Posted - 2009.05.29 17:17:00 -
[139]
Originally by: baltec1 Depends. I know of a guy who made billions killing dumb mission runners who didn't understand game mechanicsin high sec mission hubs.
Fixed that for ya.
The only thing about ninja salvaging that needs nerfed is the number of people whining about it.
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Schayol Sunkeeper
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Posted - 2009.05.29 17:20:00 -
[140]
Originally by: skye orionis Fixed that for ya.
The only thing about ninja salvaging that needs nerfed is the number of people whining about it.
aggro timer would be okay though, but would result in more mission runner whiners than ever before. I would proceed to hijack missions and if getting shot, come back in a gankship ... faction fitted battleships make epic salvage + loot
maybe that's a way to balance out lvl 4 highsec missioning ^^
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Viqer Fell
Minmatar The Good old Days
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Posted - 2009.05.29 17:36:00 -
[141]
Is this stupid thread still going?
"I don't know what to suggest as its a fun game mechanic, but its completely risk free, ridiculously easy to do, and in many cases highly profitable. L4 mission loot and salvage without the investment in ships / time / standing gains/losses to get them. I tried it with my second account while running an L4 mission and it was easy. This is far too open for abuse, and is getting to the point where theres 2 ninjas for every 10 mission runner in a hub."
And?
So what. Doing L4 missions in a hub is seen as purely risk free Isk to start off with so let's just treat this as a mild way of vaguely beginning to balance things up. Come back when you have something serious to cry about. It's not like this topic hasn't been flogged to death a bazillion times before and ignored repeatedly as a non-issue by CCP but I'm glad you yet again raised it.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.05.29 18:06:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Zey Nadar No it is not separate,
Yes it is. Salvage was introduced a lo-o-ong time after missions, as a semi-profession on the side. It has nothing to do with missions at all.
Quote: I dont know about you, but for me the mission rewards by themselves wouldnt make missions worth doing.
That's why you get bounties, loot rights, LP, and standings gain as well. You are completely compensated for your efforts through those — if you can't survive and/or make enough money without the salvage, you're doing something horribly wrong.
Also, necroing threads is bad, mmmkay? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Undecillion
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Posted - 2009.07.21 04:03:00 -
[143]
As I do make a decent amount of ISK from salvaging my wrecks, it does bug me a bit when they are salvaged by others.
One possible solution that I suggest is to place a timer, say 30 minutes, on the wreck. If you, the mission runner, have not salvaged your wreck before the 30 minute time period is up, the wreck is then up for grabs. The ninja salvager cannot salvage the wreck during the 30 minute time period or they become flagged. Just a thought. Like or dislike? |
Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.21 08:48:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Isakova I can probe out mission space, get in, bm it, warp out, get my salvager, warp back again, start salvaging while the mission owner has full room aggro.
If I see his drones heading back to him, I know he's on his way out. I can loot too, I know he wont shoot me because it's futile, would be quicker to warp out and hope rats give aggro. There's really nothing a person can do to counter it. I think if probing out deadspace was made harder, or riskier, I don't care about the changes to the mechanics, but it the sheer ease of it and the amount of newbies doing it, it's become ridiculous.
When regular NPCs get AI like sleepers, fun times will be had :).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Tauranon
Gallente Wandering Provocateurs Communitas
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Posted - 2009.07.21 09:18:00 -
[145]
I don't see how ninja salvaging is unbalanced at all.
Realistically the mission runner recieves at least 50% of the reward straight up for killing the NPC, direct to wallet via bounties. A miner has to collect and move 100% of the reward to a station to get any reward at all.
I believe that ninja salvagers entering mission spaces is a design feature that CCP want in the game, because they want contention between players, even in highsec. The economy relies on contention and destruction to function. If missions were meant to be sharded, they would have been sharded long ago for hub performance reasons.
Mission runners can always make the choice of yield (pure dps fit) vs protected income (sacrificing 2 highslots to collect the loot salvage as it falls). Those that get extensively ninja salvaged, do so because they made a conscious yield choice, for which there should be a consequence.
My general behavior is to run my missions in dps fit, and return to salvage (ie I accept the yield consequence). If I am aware of a salvager in my mission, I'll fetch my salvage boat and compete (very effectively) for the remaining salvage, tractor beams + AB > ninja boat for salvage collection effiency.
I also know how many gates till NPCs, and I can also switch 1 salvager for a tractor, given that my salvage efficiency is now partially dependant on how many wrecks I am dragging away from the other guy. (its also fun to pull the strings, some chase!).
The only thing that irritates me about the process is that the deadspace MWD restriction doesn't lift if I hand the mission in with a ninja in my deadspace that I was unaware of, which can leave me incorrectly fitted (ie MWD instead of AB fitted).
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Amerilia
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Posted - 2009.07.21 09:20:00 -
[146]
A solution: Use a T3 ship with low signature radius. Most Ninjas dont bother scanning it down.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.21 10:21:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Drunk Driver
Originally by: Antoine Roquentin I have the perfect solution: move all level 4 missions to low sec. Then you could just shoot the ninja looters.
I expect you wouldn't last long enough to generate much loot in low sec.
Which in a weird sort of way solves the problem of ninja looting.
Um yes... that's what he said.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.07.21 10:30:00 -
[148]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 21/07/2009 10:30:38
Originally by: Isakova I don't know what to suggest as its a fun game mechanic, but its completely risk free, ridiculously easy to do, and in many cases highly profitable.
like missions too.
Ninja salvaging is fine, thanks for the keeping the salvage-rant running ****ole!!!
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Irida Mershkov
Gallente War is Bliss
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Posted - 2009.07.21 11:03:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Drunk Driver
Originally by: Antoine Roquentin I have the perfect solution: move all level 4 missions to low sec. Then you could just shoot the ninja looters.
I expect you wouldn't last long enough to generate much loot in low sec.
Which in a weird sort of way solves the problem of ninja looting.
Few jumps from OMS, I went afk at a belt in one of the first belts in a usually-travelled system, went down for a cup of tea, came back up (forgot I was in low-sec) got distracted.
Three hours later? still there. Rats can't touch me. (well they had me into 92% armour but that's beside the point).
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Chantilly Layce
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Posted - 2009.07.21 11:11:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Isakova Yes nice cut and paste.
Completely overlooking my point.
Ninja salvaging in mission deadspace is pretty much consequence free, not in an asteroid belt.
Perhaps it's the ability of anyone to scan down a mission site that you find distressing.
In which case, the answer would be the same, ie, game mechanics are working as intended. Move along.
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Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus
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Posted - 2009.07.21 13:39:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Isakova
I don't know what to suggest as its a fun game mechanic, but its completely risk free, ridiculously easy to do, and in many cases highly profitable.
It's not risk free, ninja looters die if they do it to the wrong corp (and no it's not the mission runner shooting them). I both died as a ninja looter and killed ninja looters, so I know. -- 081014 : emoragequit, char transfered to a friend, 090317 : back to original owner blog |
Darcel Black
Gallente Murientor Tribe
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Posted - 2009.07.21 14:04:00 -
[152]
I don't know what you're all complaining about, I run missions frequently and I have not once been ninja salvaged |
Kiri Serrensun
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Posted - 2009.07.21 15:05:00 -
[153]
Just doing a quick informal survey: How many ninja salvagers currently operating in the game got started because of threads like this?
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.07.21 15:06:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Kiri Serrensun Just doing a quick informal survey: How many ninja salvagers currently operating in the game got started because of threads like this?
My money is on all except the very first. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (also with a review of the Muninn!) |
Izztyrr Maemtor
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.07.21 15:45:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Kiri Serrensun Just doing a quick informal survey: How many ninja salvagers currently operating in the game got started because of threads like this?
Me
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Traidor Disloyal
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2009.07.21 16:45:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Isakova I don't know what to suggest as its a fun game mechanic, but its completely risk free, ridiculously easy to do, and in many cases highly profitable.
It is not risk free if the ninja salvager runs into the wrong people.
For example, the corp I run with has people in it who like to hunt down mission runners and steal their loots (not me because it is to much like work). But these same people in my corp do run missions themselves, in mission hubs, to increase their faction to get more locator agents for when we hunt war targets. Sometimes, just for kicks, we all do the mission together. We look forward to someone busting the mission and taking our loots and bringing back a PvP fit ship.
Man, that would be so funny. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it. |
supr3m3justic3
Caldari GANK STARZ
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Posted - 2009.07.21 16:49:00 -
[157]
How about carebears get perma-banned from the game?
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Drunk Driver
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.07.21 16:50:00 -
[158]
ZOMBIE THREAD!!!!!!
BACK FROM THE DEAD!!!!!
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.07.21 16:53:00 -
[159]
/me did it a while... until I had to move far away from motsu
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Awesome Possum
Insert Obscure Latin Name
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Posted - 2009.07.21 16:56:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Junko Togawa
Originally by: Tippia In other words, a poor solution I'm a gankbear.
Originally by: Malcanis I accept this proposal as long as mission rewards and bounties are decreased proportionately with the reduction in risk. About a 95 0% cut would seem to be appropriate.
Originally by: Bullageddon
"Wah I want risk free iskies KB padding!"
There's risk in all aspects of money making in this game, even salvaging griefbaiting. The salvager gankbear is just the risk mission runners have to live with.
deal with it, move ondon't nerf me, I fail at EvE.
There, I fix them for u. Is moar akkurats nao.
First off, if the MR is such a moron that he shoots at a salvage frig with his mission ship, he deserves the loss.
Second, I rarely loot from the MR when I salvage. It has to be an extremely juicy piece of loot or he has to have bugged me for me to steal from him. So I hardly ever go blinky to an MR. I appear, I salvage, I leave.
WAH @ you ♥
Wreck Disposal Services |
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Junko Togawa
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.07.21 22:05:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Awesome Possum
Originally by: Junko Togawa
Originally by: Tippia In other words, a poor solution I'm a gankbear.
Originally by: Malcanis I accept this proposal as long as mission rewards and bounties are decreased proportionately with the reduction in risk. About a 95 0% cut would seem to be appropriate.
Originally by: Bullageddon
"Wah I want risk free iskies KB padding!"
There's risk in all aspects of money making in this game, even salvaging griefbaiting. The salvager gankbear is just the risk mission runners have to live with.
deal with it, move ondon't nerf me, I fail at EvE.
There, I fix them for u. Is moar akkurats nao.
First off, if the MR is such a moron that he shoots at a salvage frig with his mission ship, he deserves the loss.
Second, I rarely loot from the MR when I salvage. It has to be an extremely juicy piece of loot or he has to have bugged me for me to steal from him. So I hardly ever go blinky to an MR. I appear, I salvage, I leave.
WAH @ you
Successful troll is successful. Next!
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Awesome Possum
Insert Obscure Latin Name
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Posted - 2009.07.21 23:47:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Junko Togawa Successful troll is successful. Next!
Always feed the trolls. ♥
Wreck Disposal Services |
Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.07.22 00:00:00 -
[163]
Quote: I don't know what to suggest as its a fun game mechanic, but its completely risk free, ridiculously easy to do, and in many cases highly profitable.
Sounds like another ridiculously profitable hisec profession that I can think of.
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Quin'gan
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Posted - 2009.07.22 00:31:00 -
[164]
I had 2 ninja salvagers entering the mission i was in - and there's actually only one thing that works. Pop the wrecks just before the ninja's come in range with their salvager.
They came back later, saw who i was - and left.
I have learned my lesson and allways make sure to kill every wreck i produce now. Before i left the stuff for the salvagers - but with the recent rise in the numbers of aggressive ninjas, salvaging while i still do the mission, i dont want to leave anything for them.
My wrecks = my salvage... if not, why can i pop the wrecks with no flag?
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.07.22 00:35:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Quin'gan My wrecks = my salvage... if not, why can i pop the wrecks with no flag?
Correction: your wreck = your loot. The salvage belongs to whomever extracts it first because it doesn't even exist before someone does that. You can pop them because the cans inside them belong to you and you're free to destroy your own stuff at will. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Mr Sean
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Posted - 2009.07.22 00:39:00 -
[166]
WORKING AS INTENDED
:)
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Bestofworst Worstofbest
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.07.22 00:53:00 -
[167]
I'll put it simply, the drivel most people love to use is "Risk vs reward" a term they heard coined by whomever they heard it and then follow it like law. But how about this, your risk for your reward? You run missions in complete safety from being a free target. You are free to make isk in relative safety, you are not interrupted by having a single neutral come into system, you are not to worry about being probed out just to get killed. The only thing you have to worry about is some isk loss. And you know what? You can still keep making isk, he isn't gonna be in every single mission you run on.
And you know what I think it really is? It's the fact that you can't helped to be inconvenienced in any way. You say Risk vs Reward like it's a way of life.. until it effects you in any way.
tl;dr:
You risk the salvage of your wrecks so you are not instantly blown up every time you are seen in the same grid.
Stop trying to think that Risk vs Reward is a valid argument, especially when you whine when your reward comes into contact with its risks. ________________________________________________
Am I an alt, main, or both? You decide! |
Fennore
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Posted - 2009.07.22 01:25:00 -
[168]
All i can say is Recon 3 of 3 level 4 . I like to stay a little wile and watch the ninjas go pop in the green.
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Zartanic
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Posted - 2009.07.22 01:27:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Bestofworst Worstofbest I'll put it simply, the drivel most people love to use is "Risk vs reward" a term they heard coined by whomever they heard it and then follow it like law. But how about this, your risk for your reward? You run missions in complete safety from being a free target. You are free to make isk in relative safety, you are not interrupted by having a single neutral come into system, you are not to worry about being probed out just to get killed. The only thing you have to worry about is some isk loss. And you know what? You can still keep making isk, he isn't gonna be in every single mission you run on.
And you know what I think it really is? It's the fact that you can't helped to be inconvenienced in any way. You say Risk vs Reward like it's a way of life.. until it effects you in any way.
tl;dr:
You risk the salvage of your wrecks so you are not instantly blown up every time you are seen in the same grid.
Stop trying to think that Risk vs Reward is a valid argument, especially when you whine when your reward comes into contact with its risks.
Actually I said ages ago risk v reward and looking at it your way I agree. Neither of us have any real risk. I have nothing against players who ninja salvage anyway, its an occupation like any other and its a good way to get new players into the game. The only issue I had was the fast they were not flagged but really that would cause so many other problems in the game I can see the sense in leaving it as it is.
Also I suspect CCP is hoping this will encourage more mission runners in low sec, I'm working on doing that myself. Also WH's are easy to find too and there is plenty of salvage there, even in my rubbish BC Im getting a lot of loot from those. Many I find are virgin and the risk is low even though its nul sec. Anyway they are more fun.
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Titan Pilot
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.07.22 02:43:00 -
[170]
last comment about encouraging mission runners to move to low sec lol
listen, these guys in empire are not stupid. half of them are the leet pvpers from 0.0, other half dont have time to gate camp. bottom line is most are just trying to make isk to feed their PVP habit. Sure some are farmers but not all. This whole salvaging debate is stupid. Probe down mission runner, warp to gate, enter, salvage warp out. There is no risk and all reward. Its stupid and CCP likes like to mind frak mission runners with this crap.
CCP: they are not going to jump into low sec to be ganked. Sooner CCP wakes up and realizes it, sooner they can find a way to make this PVP game fun to make isk will shooting douches in the face. The FW reward system might finally put a dent in the problem.
/thread
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piloot idioot
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Posted - 2009.07.22 02:51:00 -
[171]
instead of fitting tons of cap rechargers and whinning on the forums. mission runners could fit a.. wel i donno.. warp disruptor
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Ohnoes Bobsdead
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Posted - 2009.07.22 03:23:00 -
[172]
I think the problem is related to the invulnerability of NPC Corps. Ninja salvagers, gankers, ISK farmers and the lamest of the pirates hide behind this mechanic. Once you are off your trial you should be out of the NPC corp. If this was the case ninja salvagers would have to worry about being wardecced or a having a Merc corp hired by the carebears. It would certainly make empire life a bit more interesting with a bit more scope for long term grudges and revenge to be worked out.
As for me, Im still taking advantage of it - try and do something about it when I drop into your mission or scout for my main in your 0.0 system. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.07.22 05:14:00 -
[173]
Not sure about joining a corp.
Those of us who work for a living (when we are not in Momma's basement playing MMOs) have to deal with real corporations all day - the drama, the politics, and real-life ninjas only it's not your wreck and loots they take, its your credit and hard work.
Then there are taxes - PC corps have taxes. RL has taxes (much worse too).
Who wants to continue that on their time off?
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Khandara Seraphim
StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.07.22 05:24:00 -
[174]
I thankfully dont have to mission anymore but the solution is obvious.
Shoot your wrecks!
If a ninja salvager starts heading for your wrecks, just start popping the ones they're going for. After all, the ninja salvagers are there for profit and if you get a reputation for denying them that then soon they won't bother anymore. ___________
Originally by: CCP Whisper Boo hoo. Cry some more. |
Mr Sean
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Posted - 2009.07.22 05:41:00 -
[175]
It's been said a million times - but it seems pretty logical to me that Salvage rights belong to the first person to get the salvage.
Shoot your wrecks. Warp out really fast and see how well the Salvager can tank. Figure something out. Beyond whining about it :P
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.07.22 05:48:00 -
[176]
Quote: After all, the ninja salvagers are there for profit
lol wut
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Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2009.07.22 11:14:00 -
[177]
Love these threads. MOAR! _____________________________
Please resize sig to a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal |
Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2009.07.22 11:16:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer Not sure about joining a corp.
Those of us who work for a living (when we are not in Momma's basement playing MMOs) have to deal with real corporations all day - the drama, the politics, and real-life ninjas only it's not your wreck and loots they take, its your credit and hard work.
Then there are taxes - PC corps have taxes. RL has taxes (much worse too).
Who wants to continue that on their time off?
YEAH! FIGHT THE MAN ... man. You're a true maverick. You buck the trend of playing an MMO to interact with people. Power to you. Don't get sucked into the lies of 'it's fun to be in a corp' or 'being in a corp actually brings benefits'. _____________________________
Please resize sig to a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal |
Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.07.22 11:21:00 -
[179]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 22/07/2009 11:23:07 I love morons shooting the wrecks :)) Since I'm doing salvaging only secondary for money, primary for fun such MR aren't bugging me at all. At such behavior I just approach all that fat large filled wrecks first, the most MR realize its dumb blowing the own loot and having it is better than nothing and begin to smack local instead of shooting, if they havent smacked before already :)) hilarious
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari Liberi Fatalius Exalted.
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Posted - 2009.07.22 11:27:00 -
[180]
Edited by: Rawr Cristina on 22/07/2009 11:27:31 I used to run hundreds and hundreds of missions and only once did I ever see an intruder... who stayed for about 1 minute and warped out
Might have something to do with not running my L4s in Motsu
- Contagious - |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.22 13:43:00 -
[181]
ITT: Hi-sec mission runners complaining about other people making lots of ISK with no risk.
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Rashmika Clavain
Gallente Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2009.07.22 14:43:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Isakova
I don't know what to suggest as its a fun game mechanic, but its completely risk free,
You're right. Any form of Empire salvaging is completely risk free. Once the mission is cleared, the mission runner comes back and salvages. How is that risky? Or are you seriosuly suggesting that it's risky for the mission runner to salvage because he's just run the "risk" of a mission that is banaly easy and just given him around 5-15m in terms of bounties etc?
If you wanted to add risk to all Empire mission savaging, then fine. However you don't, you simply want to stop other people probing you out by glossing it over as a "ninja salvaging is too easy in terms of risk v reward". Well guess what, Empire salvaging is too easy too in terms of risk versus reward too. Removed. Please keep your EVE signature related to your EVE persona and not that of a real life politician. Navigator |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.22 14:50:00 -
[183]
How about we make deadspaces equivalent to 0.0, with no CONCORD presence (which would explain why agents need expensive, unreliable pod pilots to go and do the job). Then missioners could bring lots of risk to ninja salvagers.
Or maybe just make them lo-sec? So there's a small sec hit for initiating a fight but then you're good to go!
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.07.22 14:54:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Malcanis How about we make deadspaces equivalent to 0.0, with no CONCORD presence (which would explain why agents need expensive, unreliable pod pilots to go and do the job). Then missioners could bring lots of risk to ninja salvagers.
Or maybe just make them lo-sec? So there's a small sec hit for initiating a fight but then you're good to go!
This. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (also with a review of the Muninn!) |
Reilana
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Posted - 2009.07.22 15:01:00 -
[185]
Blowing up your wrecks will not deter me in the slightest. When you blow up the wreck, you destroy all your loot and the salvage, reducing your mission income further. This is almost as good as the tears you cry in mail and pm so just encourages me more to hang around. By the time you've cut you mission income by at least 40%, i've scanned down another couple of missions to hit. I've also noted your ship ID so I can target you again when you get your next mission.
When you warp off, hoping NPCs will blow me up, you obviously don't understand how easy it is to speed tank a frigate. All you do is leave me to salvage in peace and pick out the juicy bits of loot from the wrecks. If you dont come back, i'll take the bounties, the salvage, the loot and the mission item (you can have it back on contracts for a recovery fee).
If the thought of me ninja'ing your mission offends you, there is nothing you can do to deter me. If you accept that salvaging is legitimate and leave us to do it, we would bother you no more.
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Gin G
Halls Of Valhalla
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Posted - 2009.07.22 16:07:00 -
[186]
i know
lets ALL
STFU about it for one week
just one week
give everyone a much needed rest Please refrain from editing a moderator's warning. Zymurgist |
Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.07.22 16:09:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Malcanis How about we make deadspaces equivalent to 0.0, with no CONCORD presence (which would explain why agents need expensive, unreliable pod pilots to go and do the job). Then missioners could bring lots of risk to ninja salvagers.
Or maybe just make them lo-sec? So there's a small sec hit for initiating a fight but then you're good to go!
YES YEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS PLEASE DO THIS CHANGE!!! You have ALL my support! Finally no more searching for gank victims in some empty low-sec or camping in 0.0 for targets, just scan motsu and have a LOT OF VICTIMS TO GANK!!
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation Apotheosis of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.07.22 16:11:00 -
[188]
Edited by: Mendolus on 22/07/2009 16:16:38
It is pretty obvious that the salvaging mechanic is going to get a nerf of some kind.
EVE is a game of consequences, which makes it all the more ironic when so many people flock to professions that have none, of which there are so few in the game to start with. Ninja salvaging has no present consequence, and the more prevalent it becomes, the more likely CCP is to nerf it, just like piracy in low security was nerfed to attempt to bring people back into those areas of the game.
Ninja salvagers may not ever force a majority mission runners into other professions, but the end result will be the same.
The mission hub I do L4s out of on rare occasions, has maybe twelve runners at any given time doing missions there, and there is a corporation of +50 there devoted solely to ninja salvaging. More than fifty people for a hub that supports I would wager around hundred million an hour in salvaged materials from mission runners. This is a problem.
And before I get the ubiquitous the salvage mechanic is working as intended let me remind you that 1) I agree in principle, and 2) bumping was working as intended at one point as well, until it became so prevalent as harassment in the game (thanks Goons) that CCP nerfed it to its current state.
Just because something has been done right, does not mean people will not abuse it to the point that it must be altered to compensate for their behavior, and altered not because it is wrong, but because of said behavior.
Sound familiar?
{...and they will respect a line drawn in the sand more than forgiveness} |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.07.22 16:19:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Mendolus EVE is a game of consequences, which makes it all the more ironic when so many people flock to professions that have none, of which there are so few in the game to start with. Ninja salvaging has no present consequence, and the more prevalent it becomes, the more likely CCP is to nerf it
So when are they going to nerf missions? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.22 16:24:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: Malcanis How about we make deadspaces equivalent to 0.0, with no CONCORD presence (which would explain why agents need expensive, unreliable pod pilots to go and do the job). Then missioners could bring lots of risk to ninja salvagers.
Or maybe just make them lo-sec? So there's a small sec hit for initiating a fight but then you're good to go!
YES YEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS PLEASE DO THIS CHANGE!!! You have ALL my support! Finally no more searching for gank victims in some empty low-sec or camping in 0.0 for targets, just scan motsu and have a LOT OF VICTIMS TO GANK!!
I dunno man, judging by the posts these mission runners are making, you'll be taking a pretty big risk because they'll definitely kill you as soon as they are allowed to shoot at you.
Fly safe!
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation Apotheosis of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.07.22 16:28:00 -
[191]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Mendolus EVE is a game of consequences, which makes it all the more ironic when so many people flock to professions that have none, of which there are so few in the game to start with. Ninja salvaging has no present consequence, and the more prevalent it becomes, the more likely CCP is to nerf it
So when are they going to nerf missions?
When you know what you are talking about.
{...and they will respect a line drawn in the sand more than forgiveness} |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.07.22 16:34:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Mendolus When you know what you are talking about.
No, it didn't happen last year. So when? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation Apotheosis of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.07.22 16:45:00 -
[193]
Edited by: Mendolus on 22/07/2009 16:47:06
Originally by: Rashmika Clavain
Originally by: Isakova
I don't know what to suggest as its a fun game mechanic, but its completely risk free,
You're right. Any form of Empire salvaging is completely risk free. Once the mission is cleared, the mission runner comes back and salvages. How is that risky? Or are you seriosuly suggesting that it's risky for the mission runner to salvage because he's just run the "risk" of a mission that is banaly easy and just given him around 5-15m in terms of bounties etc?
If you wanted to add risk to all Empire mission savaging, then fine. However you don't, you simply want to stop other people probing you out by glossing it over as a "ninja salvaging is too easy in terms of risk v reward". Well guess what, Empire salvaging is too easy too in terms of risk versus reward too.
The point is not that ninja salvaging or the game mechanic are wrong, it is a matter of prevalence.
Piracy is not wrong either, but when the pirates drive a majority of players out of low security to the point that 50% of the player base huddles in the safety of Empire space, CCP takes action (or tries at least, rofl).
Now while ninja salvaging is never going to drive a majority of mission runners into other professions it is still going to eventually get the same nerf as anything else. Ninja salvaging is too easy, you can start a career in it within days of rolling an account and circumvent the skilling up required to actually do those missions yet mission runners take a month or two to skill up, and you still have to at least have some idea of what you are doing, plus devote the time to doing it.
When has CCP NOT eventually taken steps to balance the game mechanic when player behavior either A) has a negative impact on the entertainment experience thus effecting the bottom line on their sub base or B) becomes so overwhelmingly prevalent that an adjustment needs to be made to balance the game?
Obviously if even 5% of mission runners eventually unsubscribe from the game because they cannot do an L4 mission without someone salvaging their wrecks (assuming ninja salvaging continues to become more and more popular just like Falcons, Piracy, Lofty Scams, Nano Fits, etc. etc. etc.) while they are incapable of doing anything about it, CCP is going to take action. Please tell me why they would not?
How long did people cry foul on the Falcon until it inevitably got nerfed? There were just as many people crying for Falcon's to be left alone as there were for them to be nerfed, guess who won?
I don't like it anymore than the next guy, I would rather there be a chance some tool comes into my mission (of the few I do these days) and gives me something fun, different, and yes frustrating to experience not to mention the fact that I wholeheartedly agree that the salvaging mechanic is working as intended (but the people who do it are not). But at the same time if I could not do an L4 without a ninja salvager on top of me every time, do you not see something wrong with this?
{...and they will respect a line drawn in the sand more than forgiveness} |
Mercrom
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Posted - 2009.07.22 16:46:00 -
[194]
I don't like doing cheap and lowly things, or things that gives me a bad reputation. I have considered ninja salvaging though, because I would like to do everything I possibly can to grief the hell out of you people.
You're solo grinding and affecting the economy, while at the same time complaining about anything anyone else does to you while you do it. If CCP actually starts listening to you people they won't even make this game like World of Warcraft, they will make it like Progress Quest.
There ARE other games for you if you want to grind. Why try to ruin the most free PvP game out there?
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.07.22 16:48:00 -
[195]
just turn mission deadspaces to 0.0 or low, you may fire at will and the problem is solved. I would like this fix.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.22 16:48:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Mendolus Edited by: Mendolus on 22/07/2009 16:46:14
Originally by: Rashmika Clavain
Originally by: Isakova
I don't know what to suggest as its a fun game mechanic, but its completely risk free,
You're right. Any form of Empire salvaging is completely risk free. Once the mission is cleared, the mission runner comes back and salvages. How is that risky? Or are you seriosuly suggesting that it's risky for the mission runner to salvage because he's just run the "risk" of a mission that is banaly easy and just given him around 5-15m in terms of bounties etc?
If you wanted to add risk to all Empire mission savaging, then fine. However you don't, you simply want to stop other people probing you out by glossing it over as a "ninja salvaging is too easy in terms of risk v reward". Well guess what, Empire salvaging is too easy too in terms of risk versus reward too.
The point is not that ninja salvaging or the game mechanic are wrong, it is a matter of prevalence.
Piracy is not wrong either, but when the pirates drive a majority of players out of low security to the point that 50% of the player base huddles in the safety of Empire space, CCP takes action.
Now while ninja salvaging is never going to drive a majority of mission runners into other professions it is still going to eventually get the same nerf as anything else. Ninja salvaging is too easy, you can start a career in it within days of rolling an account and circumvent the skilling up required to actually do those missions yet mission runners take a month or two to skill up, and you still have to at least have some idea of what you are doing, plus devote the time to doing it.
When has CCP NOT eventually taken steps to balance the game mechanic when player behavior either A) has a negative impact on the entertainment experience thus effecting the bottom line on their sub base or B) becomes so overwhelmingly prevalent that an adjustment needs to be made to balance the game?
Obviously if even 5% of mission runners eventually unsubscribe from the game because they cannot do an L4 mission without someone salvaging their wrecks (assuming ninja salvaging continues to become more and more popular just like Falcons, Piracy, Lofty Scams, Nano Fits, etc. etc. etc.) while they are incapable of doing anything about it, CCP is going to take action. Please tell me why they would not?
How long did people cry foul on the Falcon until it inevitably got nerfed? There were just as many people crying for Falcon's to be left alone as there were for them to be nerfed, guess who won?
I don't like it anymore than the next guy, I would rather there be a chance some tool comes into my mission (of the few I do these days) and gives me something fun, different, and yes frustrating to experience not to mention the fact that I wholeheartedly agree that the salvaging mechanic is working as intended (but the people who do it are not). But at the same time if I could not do an L4 without a ninja salvager on top of me every time, do you not see something wrong with this?
Ah, the old "give us what we want or we'll quit and take our dollars with us" routine. I'm only surprised it took until page 7 to appear tbh.
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation Apotheosis of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.07.22 16:51:00 -
[197]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Mendolus When you know what you are talking about.
No, it didn't happen last year. So when?
Touche, I must apologize for my previous comment, I was just hoping for an actual response of some kind not anecdotal and somewhat misleading commentary.
Yes, mission running is too easy, and it has an insane longterm income source when you start talking about mineral production from loot, but that's a different problem than this. Ninja salvaging is not a way to balance the income generation of mission runners because ninja salvaging has NO caveat.
{...and they will respect a line drawn in the sand more than forgiveness} |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.22 16:51:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Mendolus
Obviously if even 5% of mission runners eventually unsubscribe from the game because they cannot do an L4 mission without someone salvaging their wrecks (assuming ninja salvaging continues to become more and more popular just like Falcons, Piracy, Lofty Scams, Nano Fits, etc. etc. etc.) while they are incapable of doing anything about it, CCP is going to take action. Please tell me why they would not?
I'd be very careful about making this argument if I were you. If you're saying that the fact that so many people engaging in ninja-salvaging is a sign that the profession is ipso facto unbalanced... what about the fact that such a huge majority of people make their ISK missioning?
And really you're trying to have it both ways:
(1) Ninja ratting is too popular therefore it needs nerfing (2) Mission running must be protected and boosted because it's so popular.
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation Apotheosis of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.07.22 16:53:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Malcanis Ah, the old "give us what we want or we'll quit and take our dollars with us" routine. I'm only surprised it took until page 7 to appear tbh.
Hey I don't like it anymore than you do, but just because I do not like it does not mean it is false.
{...and they will respect a line drawn in the sand more than forgiveness} |
Decarus
Amarr The R.I.T.U.A.L Corp
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Posted - 2009.07.22 16:56:00 -
[200]
When are you freeloaders going to understand that you're not going to get your way, all the time, forever. I bet that somewhere down the line you'll realize that you were just hurting your own cause. Something similar to when miners realized that they had just fought the good fight to introduce can-flipping into the game.
On to the real point: I doubt anyone reading this has a clue as to which side I'm addressing. What does that tell you?
You know that if it doesn't tell you anything you're probably not as smart as me.
So think a bit harder.
That's right.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.22 16:59:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Decarus When are you freeloaders going to understand that you're not going to get your way, all the time, forever. I bet that somewhere down the line you'll realize that you were just hurting your own cause. Something similar to when miners realized that they had just fought the good fight to introduce can-flipping into the game.
On to the real point: I doubt anyone reading this has a clue as to which side I'm addressing. What does that tell you?
You know that if it doesn't tell you anything you're probably not as smart as me.
So think a bit harder.
That's right.
You're not as smart as your mommy tells you you are.
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Decarus
Amarr The R.I.T.U.A.L Corp
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Posted - 2009.07.22 17:02:00 -
[202]
But I'm every bit as awesome as your mom says I am.
See, I can do ad hominem too! But you knew that since I put it in my earlier post so no one would have to listen to what I say and feel bad about themselves.
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation Apotheosis of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.07.22 17:02:00 -
[203]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Mendolus
Obviously if even 5% of mission runners eventually unsubscribe from the game because they cannot do an L4 mission without someone salvaging their wrecks (assuming ninja salvaging continues to become more and more popular just like Falcons, Piracy, Lofty Scams, Nano Fits, etc. etc. etc.) while they are incapable of doing anything about it, CCP is going to take action. Please tell me why they would not?
I'd be very careful about making this argument if I were you. If you're saying that the fact that so many people engaging in ninja-salvaging is a sign that the profession is ipso facto unbalanced... what about the fact that such a huge majority of people make their ISK missioning?
And really you're trying to have it both ways:
(1) Ninja ratting is too popular therefore it needs nerfing (2) Mission running must be protected and boosted because it's so popular.
Yes, mission running is so popular because A) the mineral market easily supports it, B) it's too easy in the long term and C) pirates drove what would have been low sec dwellers out long ago, so what else are they going to do?
I am saying that mission running has a caveat, it is a built-in mechanic, not a behavioral affect like ninja salvaging.
Nothing was wrong with suicide ganking either until so many people started doing it.
PvP or competition in general is fun for ALL parties involved until there are loopholes, and these loopholes are fine until everyone catches on and starts using them. Ninja salvaging is just another loophole, and eventually CCP will not be able to ignore it anymore.
I like variety, I like competition, I like the occasional salvager in a mission (of the few I do) so I can only hope he is in an NPC corporation and flips my can, and I have a PvP ship on standby, but if I cannot be entertained by the game except in a way that others force me to, there is a problem. There must be reciprocation in competitive gameplay, and thus far ninja salvaging has none. It is behavioral, not syntactic.
{...and they will respect a line drawn in the sand more than forgiveness} |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.22 17:06:00 -
[204]
Originally by: Mendolus
Originally by: Malcanis Ah, the old "give us what we want or we'll quit and take our dollars with us" routine. I'm only surprised it took until page 7 to appear tbh.
Hey I don't like it anymore than you do, but just because I do not like it does not mean it is false.
So let me get this straight:
CCP introduce salvaging CCP explicitly state right from the start that anyone can salvage any wreck
CCP repeatedly confirm that this is what they want to happen, because they want to create a new profession
CCP explicitly say that salvage was not intended to increase mission running rewards
(CCP PrismX loses his temper and asks how many times people are going to ask the same question and get the same answer: that salvage is free to the finder)
You think that you're solely entitled to salvage some wrecks
You'll quit if CCP dont reverse the policy that they've explicitly stated right from the very beginning.
I'm sorry, but it's difficult to interpret this any other way than you extorting from CCP extra mission rewards that, to paraphrase the dev "no-one with any sense would say that hi-sec missioning needs".
If you're genuinely serious about the risk/reward thing, then support my proposal to make mission deadspaces lo-sec, and let the cards fall where they may.
Or did you mean only that other people should have to take risks to get rewards, while mission runners get to shoot untanked destroyers at will?
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CCP Prism X
Gallente C C P
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Posted - 2009.07.22 17:10:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Malcanis (CCP PrismX loses his temper and asks how many times people are going to ask the same question and get the same answer: that salvage is free to the finder)
Hey! I'm lurking here you know!
But I've come to accept these threads as my friend. It always ends (well, it never ends) with my post count going up... through proxy. ~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006. Relocating your cozy, secure container to the EVE cemetery since 2008. |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.22 17:11:00 -
[206]
Originally by: Mendolus Ninja salvaging is just another loophole, and eventually CCP will not be able to ignore it anymore.
You keep saying this as if it were inarguably true, but CCP keep saying that it's exactly what they had in mind.
I wonder why you think you know more about what CCP want than CCP?
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.22 17:12:00 -
[207]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Originally by: Malcanis (CCP PrismX loses his temper and asks how many times people are going to ask the same question and get the same answer: that salvage is free to the finder)
Hey! I'm lurking here you know!
But I've come to accept these threads as my friend. It always ends (well, it never ends) with my post count going up... through proxy.
♥
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OMGNOTANOTHERALT
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Posted - 2009.07.22 17:20:00 -
[208]
Edited by: OMGNOTANOTHERALT on 22/07/2009 17:21:08 I just don't see the problem here, at all. I've ran missions in Motsu and a couple of smaller hubs and only get a couple of ninja attempts every day, at the very most, out of 5 or more missions.
Best way to deal with them? Chill out and ignore them. There's nothing they can do to you, and half of them are just trying to get you to shoot at them so they can come back and kill you, and if you don't shoot them they will give up and try someone else.
Ofc I've been on the other side as well, ninja-salvaging is quite profitable, and it's always fun when I get a CNR kill because someone was daft enough to shoot me.
For people too uptight to just let it go, shoot the wrecks. Sure you can't get them, but neither can they. (Although what's the point then, other than spightfulness/bloodymindedness).
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation Apotheosis of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.07.22 17:32:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Mendolus
Originally by: Malcanis Ah, the old "give us what we want or we'll quit and take our dollars with us" routine. I'm only surprised it took until page 7 to appear tbh.
Hey I don't like it anymore than you do, but just because I do not like it does not mean it is false.
So let me get this straight:
CCP introduce salvaging CCP explicitly state right from the start that anyone can salvage any wreck
CCP repeatedly confirm that this is what they want to happen, because they want to create a new profession
CCP explicitly say that salvage was not intended to increase mission running rewards
(CCP PrismX loses his temper and asks how many times people are going to ask the same question and get the same answer: that salvage is free to the finder)
You think that you're solely entitled to salvage some wrecks
You'll quit if CCP dont reverse the policy that they've explicitly stated right from the very beginning.
I'm sorry, but it's difficult to interpret this any other way than you extorting from CCP extra mission rewards that, to paraphrase the dev "no-one with any sense would say that hi-sec missioning needs".
If you're genuinely serious about the risk/reward thing, then support my proposal to make mission deadspaces lo-sec, and let the cards fall where they may.
Or did you mean only that other people should have to take risks to get rewards, while mission runners get to shoot untanked destroyers at will?
Hey, I am just telling it like it is. CCP, you, me, and anyone with half a brain probably all agree that salvaging is a good game mechanic in its current form, but that does not stop it from being abused to the point that CCP has to grudgingly admit it needs to change the mechanic. I can wish that not only the ninja salvagers but the mission runners themselves can all agree on doing things in moderation, but let's face it, people look at their wallets first, and the principle of the matter second. There is rarely any hindsight for the people who push for these changes, as someone pointed out in this thread concerning can flipping and aggression. People want what they do not understand and abuse what they have already been given, this is the way it is. Until that stops you can continue to expect that CCP will be forced into making changes to any game mechanic that gets abused via becoming so prevalent as to counteract the player experience or more importantly the subscriber base in any negative fashion. It's stupid, but people do it to themselves, both the salvagers and the runners. If they cannot act in moderation, someone will eventually have to force them to do so.
And for clarification, I generate income by ratting in 0.0, and that is certainly a profession that has many caveats.
{...and they will respect a line drawn in the sand more than forgiveness} |
Bestofworst Worstofbest
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.07.22 17:44:00 -
[210]
Again, the whole argument of Risk vs Reward is so over done that it makes me sick just to talk about it. But if you must compare the two:
Mission running:
Risk - Can get suicide ganked, can get ninja salvaged. Reward - General saftey, can autopilot nearly everywhere between missions, great rewards.
Ninja Salvaging:
Reward - Salvage, maybe some tears. Risk - Can warp in on a mission with crap salvage, can warp in on Recon 3 of 3, can have their wrecks blown up, can become hated and hunted ("IM HIRING MERCS AFTER U!").
But please, I know that whenever someone uses the Risk vs Reward argument, they only do it to remove their risk and just get a reward. ________________________________________________
Am I an alt, main, or both? You decide! |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.22 17:47:00 -
[211]
Edited by: Malcanis on 22/07/2009 17:47:59
Originally by: Mendolus
Hey, I am just telling it like it is. CCP, you, me, and anyone with half a brain probably all agree that salvaging is a good game mechanic in its current form, but that does not stop it from being abused to the point that CCP has to grudgingly admit it needs to change the mechanic.
But, again, where is the least little bit of evidence that this is so? Can you produce so much as a hint that CCP are dissatisfied or dismayed with the amount of ninja salvaging going on? It really does seem to me that ninja salvagers exactly describe their stated goal of salvaging as a mini-profession. So far as I can tell, your main argument is reduces down to no more than "this is ****ing some (but not all) mission runners off". Sorry buddy, that's just not enough.
You keep describing ninja salvaging as a "loophole", a "problem" and so forth. As if salvage was originally really supposed to be the property of the mission runner, and the free-for-all nature of salvaging was an oversight, a careless bit of programming, a game design whoopsie. But, and this is an amply recorded historical fact, it never was.
Let me restate this, because it is the core flaw in all your arguments:
CCP explicitly say that salvage was not intended to increase mission running rewards
I dont know how to make this any plainer. The salvage that you are complaining about losing isn't yours, was never yours, wasn't introduced to be yours, has never been intended to be yours. At no point did CCP have the least intention of ever - regardless of circumstance - making it yours. The "loophole" you are complaining about is working as intended. IT'S WHAT CCP HAD IN MIND FROM THE BEGINNING. IT'S WHAT THEY WANTED TO HAPPEN. THEY'RE NOT GOING TO CHANGE IT BECAUSE IT'S WHAT THEY WANT.
I typed that in block capitals because it seems like that might work in conveying this simple, basic concept to you.
If it doesn't work, well, whatever, because CCP aint gonna change it regardless of how impervious you are.
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation Apotheosis of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.07.22 18:00:00 -
[212]
Originally by: Malcanis Edited by: Malcanis on 22/07/2009 17:47:59
Originally by: Mendolus
Hey, I am just telling it like it is. CCP, you, me, and anyone with half a brain probably all agree that salvaging is a good game mechanic in its current form, but that does not stop it from being abused to the point that CCP has to grudgingly admit it needs to change the mechanic.
But, again, where is the least little bit of evidence that this is so? Can you produce so much as a hint that CCP are dissatisfied or dismayed with the amount of ninja salvaging going on? It really does seem to me that ninja salvagers exactly describe their stated goal of salvaging as a mini-profession. So far as I can tell, your main argument is reduces down to no more than "this is ****ing some (but not all) mission runners off". Sorry buddy, that's just not enough.
You keep describing ninja salvaging as a "loophole", a "problem" and so forth. As if salvage was originally really supposed to be the property of the mission runner, and the free-for-all nature of salvaging was an oversight, a careless bit of programming, a game design whoopsie. But, and this is an amply recorded historical fact, it never was.
Let me restate this, because it is the core flaw in all your arguments:
CCP explicitly say that salvage was not intended to increase mission running rewards
I dont know how to make this any plainer. The salvage that you are complaining about losing isn't yours, was never yours, wasn't introduced to be yours, has never been intended to be yours. At no point did CCP have the least intention of ever - regardless of circumstance - making it yours. The "loophole" you are complaining about is working as intended. IT'S WHAT CCP HAD IN MIND FROM THE BEGINNING. IT'S WHAT THEY WANTED TO HAPPEN. THEY'RE NOT GOING TO CHANGE IT BECAUSE IT'S WHAT THEY WANT.
I typed that in block capitals because it seems like that might work in conveying this simple, basic concept to you.
If it doesn't work, well, whatever, because CCP aint gonna change it regardless of how impervious you are.
I think at this point I am going to have to step out because I am not really eager to respond to so many straw man arguments.
o7
{...and they will respect a line drawn in the sand more than forgiveness} |
Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.07.22 18:29:00 -
[213]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 22/07/2009 18:29:30 CCP should remove the ownership to all stuff dropping from NPC finally, the stuff belongs actually to NPC not for anyone who killed them. THIS is the reason mission runners come here for whining, they see there is on the one hand loot for them, and on the other hand the salvage, which is NOT for them. What does a greedy bear conclude from that? RIGHT - the salvage rules are wrong because salvage does not belong to the bear.
CCP, PLEASE, FFS REMOVE THE LOOT OWNERSHIP ALREADY!!!
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Doomed Predator
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.07.22 18:50:00 -
[214]
God lord,empire mission runners have is very easy already and yet the greedy little bastards want the only inconvenience removed. Making ninja salvage topics should come with a 6 month forum ban. The 'Fendahlian Collective' strikes again |
Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.07.22 19:16:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Doomed Predator God lord,empire mission runners have is very easy already and yet the greedy little bastards want the only inconvenience removed. Making ninja salvage topics should come with a 6 month forum ban.
TBH, the most logical and sensible idea so far in this thread (except maybe Malcanis' one about deadspace being 0.0. Maybe)
On a side note, why doesn't this thread have a blue bar yet? ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (also with a review of the Muninn!) |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations
|
Posted - 2009.07.22 19:21:00 -
[216]
Originally by: Bibbleibble On a side note, why doesn't this thread have a blue bar yet?
It doesn't need one: CCP's stance is, and always has been, abundantly clear. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.22 19:41:00 -
[217]
Originally by: Bibbleibble
Originally by: Doomed Predator God lord,empire mission runners have is very easy already and yet the greedy little bastards want the only inconvenience removed. Making ninja salvage topics should come with a 6 month forum ban.
TBH, the most logical and sensible idea so far in this thread (except maybe Malcanis' one about deadspace being 0.0. Maybe)
On a side note, why doesn't this thread have a blue bar yet?
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1067174&page=7#205
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.07.22 19:49:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Bibbleibble
Originally by: Doomed Predator God lord,empire mission runners have is very easy already and yet the greedy little bastards want the only inconvenience removed. Making ninja salvage topics should come with a 6 month forum ban.
TBH, the most logical and sensible idea so far in this thread (except maybe Malcanis' one about deadspace being 0.0. Maybe)
On a side note, why doesn't this thread have a blue bar yet?
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1067174&page=7#205
Link for the lazy. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (also with a review of the Muninn!) |
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CCP Prism X
Gallente C C P
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Posted - 2009.07.22 19:51:00 -
[219]
Originally by: Bibbleibble On a side note, why doesn't this thread have a blue bar yet?
Because there are at least three threads, on this subject, out there that have been blue-bared. The majority of pro-status-quo posters have linked all of them to support their arguments.. so when I posted I saw no reason to bar this when I'm not saying anything I haven't said before. Besides, the fact that this thread exists proofs how much good it did to bar the other ones.
Is this me loosing my temper again, Malcanis? ~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006. Relocating your cozy, secure container to the EVE cemetery since 2008. |
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.07.22 19:53:00 -
[220]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Originally by: Bibbleibble On a side note, why doesn't this thread have a blue bar yet?
Because there are at least three threads, on this subject, out there that have been blue-bared. The majority of pro-status-quo posters have linked all of them to support their arguments.. so when I posted I saw no reason to bar this when I'm not saying anything I haven't said before. Besides, the fact that this thread exists proofs how much good it did to bar the other ones.
Is this me loosing my temper again, Malcanis?
I think you misunderstood
I mean, why doesn't show that you posted earlier? ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (also with a review of the Muninn!) |
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CCP Prism X
Gallente C C P
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Posted - 2009.07.22 19:56:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Bibbleibble I mean, why doesn't show that you posted earlier?
Originally by: CCP Prism X .. so when I posted I saw no reason to bar this...
Because I made it so... ~ Prism X EvE Database Developer Relocating your character to a cozy, secure container since 2006. Relocating your cozy, secure container to the EVE cemetery since 2008. |
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.07.22 19:58:00 -
[222]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Originally by: Bibbleibble I mean, why doesn't show that you posted earlier?
Originally by: CCP Prism X .. so when I posted I saw no reason to bar this...
Because I made it so...
Oops
I must becoming blind...
<goes and buries head in shame> ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (also with a review of the Muninn!) |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
|
Posted - 2009.07.22 21:02:00 -
[223]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Originally by: Bibbleibble On a side note, why doesn't this thread have a blue bar yet?
Because there are at least three threads, on this subject, out there that have been blue-bared. The majority of pro-status-quo posters have linked all of them to support their arguments.. so when I posted I saw no reason to bar this when I'm not saying anything I haven't said before. Besides, the fact that this thread exists proofs how much good it did to bar the other ones.
Is this me loosing my temper again, Malcanis?
Ever so delicately. One appreciates it.
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CyberGh0st
Minmatar Ara Veritas
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Posted - 2009.07.22 22:12:00 -
[224]
Agree with previous poster, this is the price you pay for highsec missioning.
So you have 3 options :
1. go to lowsec 2. find a friend to mission/salvage and split rewards, honestly, since my RL friend stopped playing, I barely salvage anymore, it just takes so much time :p 3. suck it up and keep doing solo level 4 missions in highsec . Cyberwiz aka CyberGh0st aka Mentakh Active @ EvE Online Favorites : DAoC-SI/SWG Pre CU-NGE/Ryzom Retired @ WoW/LOTRO/WAR/Planetside/Entropia/UO/Lineage/GW/EQ/Jumpgate/Dofus/AoC |
Ghoest
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Posted - 2009.07.23 00:02:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Isakova Yes nice cut and paste.
Completely overlooking my point.
Ninja salvaging in mission deadspace is pretty much consequence free, not in an asteroid belt.
No they completely got your point noob.
There are no consequences for salvage because its salvage.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Junko Togawa
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.07.23 01:21:00 -
[226]
Mmmm...I can feel the nerf swelling within you...post your topics...whine them down with all of your nerdrage, and your journey towards the dork side will be complete!
Srsly, poast moar, wants to see salvage nerf and emorage by ninjabears plz!
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Bestofworst Worstofbest
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.07.23 01:31:00 -
[227]
Originally by: Ghoest
Originally by: Isakova Yes nice cut and paste.
Completely overlooking my point.
Ninja salvaging in mission deadspace is pretty much consequence free, not in an asteroid belt.
No they completely got your point noob.
There are no consequences for salvage because its salvage.
Salvager risks:
Blacklisting (not too bad) Warp in on low lvl missions (crap salvage) Can warp in on missions that give crap salvage Can warp in and get attacked fast by the NPCs Can warp into Recon 3/3 ________________________________________________
Am I an alt, main, or both? You decide! |
Aranis Nax
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Posted - 2009.07.23 05:24:00 -
[228]
Oh hi, lvl 4 mission runner here . Anyway I wanna add an argument, that I haven't seen yet(not that I looked), to this here fine discussion of ninja salvaging. an analogy to the real world(oh no terrible): ninja-salvaging is like someone stealing your car but leaving behind the contents(which is you, the paperwork, the gasoline, whatever else isn't explicitly part of the car...) and you calling Concord and them saying: "nope, can't arrest that guy for stealing your car, he didn't steal the contents."
I'd just want salvaging to either flag the salvager just like looting the wreck would or to have neither looting nor salvaging do so. Moar pvp consequences can't be a bad thing, right? Would be an excellent reason to start fitting a warp disruptor on mission running ship .
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.07.23 05:36:00 -
[229]
Originally by: Aranis Nax Oh hi, lvl 4 mission runner here . Anyway I wanna add an argument, that I haven't seen yet(not that I looked), to this here fine discussion of ninja salvaging. an analogy to the real world(oh no terrible): ninja-salvaging is like someone stealing your car but leaving behind the contents(which is you, the paperwork, the gasoline, whatever else isn't explicitly part of the car...) and you calling Concord and them saying: "nope, can't arrest that guy for stealing your car, he didn't steal the contents."
I'd just want salvaging to either flag the salvager just like looting the wreck would or to have neither looting nor salvaging do so. Moar pvp consequences can't be a bad thing, right? Would be an excellent reason to start fitting a warp disruptor on mission running ship .
That's the most pathetic analogy I've ever seen, because salvage isn't yours. A car is yours.
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Shurrurru
Blue Unicorns Love Pineapple
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Posted - 2009.07.23 06:37:00 -
[230]
I didn't read 7 of the 8 pages so maybe my point's already been made.
You're playing an MMORPG. Massively multiplay it with a salvager (for the low low price of half of the salvage profit) or have a friend in an Interceptor ready with a scram if the salvager gets stealy.
You can't do everything at once so stop playing solo in a multiplayer game. Accept that you either need to split some of your salvage, some of your mission bounties, or accept that part of your income is likely to get stolen from you. ----------- EvE Category of my Personal Blog
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Mr Sean
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Posted - 2009.07.23 06:51:00 -
[231]
Edited by: Mr Sean on 23/07/2009 06:51:50 So, how many of you people who think it's unfair that others can salvage from your missions have bothered to even notice that there are countermeasures to prevent anyone scanning you down in a mission in the first place, and they are pretty simple to fit and use. Yes, your navy issue faction fit will have to sacrifice a couple slots, but there are solutions to your problem that don't involve starting the same thread up over and over and over...
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Rune Hirr
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Posted - 2009.07.23 09:49:00 -
[232]
There is a very easy fix to the problem; put a guard with a key at first gate in all missions, simple and effective. I have always found it strange that there is non, to me it is like building a house leaving out the front door. This is no major change to do and when you turn in the mission, it is no longer deadspace. leaving me as the mission runner to clean out or shut up. Scavengers can scan the system as much as they want, and hope I don't want the salvage/loot.
To make it more interesting for low sec mission runners, the key is mad as cargo and if some1 pops u, they get the key. Now do u buy back the key and keep your standing ? that sounds like fun. To make things even, non secure cans is given a grace period of lets say 45 min., after that it is viewed as abandoned and flag removed, subsequent the name of can is changed to ôabandonedö.
Yes I understand ccp didn't introduce salvage as ad.payment to mission-runners.
ñ-Taking loot, salvage or opening named cans, calling yourself a ninja is just another way of saying ôI am a thiefö. If u didn't pop the ship, or the can don't carry your name, the salvage/loot is not yours. U call yourself a ninja cos u can't swallow the fact that u are a thief-ñ
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.07.23 10:45:00 -
[233]
no need for boosting missions, they require a nerf rather, which could be realized via removing all loot ownership to NPC stuff, like salvage is.
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Karentaki
Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.07.23 10:58:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Aranis Nax Oh hi, lvl 4 mission runner here . Anyway I wanna add an argument, that I haven't seen yet(not that I looked), to this here fine discussion of ninja salvaging. an analogy to the real world(oh no terrible): ninja-salvaging is like someone stealing your car but leaving behind the contents(which is you, the paperwork, the gasoline, whatever else isn't explicitly part of the car...) and you calling Concord and them saying: "nope, can't arrest that guy for stealing your car, he didn't steal the contents."
I'd just want salvaging to either flag the salvager just like looting the wreck would or to have neither looting nor salvaging do so. Moar pvp consequences can't be a bad thing, right? Would be an excellent reason to start fitting a warp disruptor on mission running ship .
Would you really complain if someone came and 'stole' your car wreck after you smashed it into a train going at full speed (read: completely wrecked), but left all your possessions in a nice little box for you with your name on it?
TBH, I agree with the suggestion to make mission deadspace a free-fire zone. If the mission runners want to shoot the salvagers that's fine, but the salvagers should be able to defend themselves.
Quote:
EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2009.07.23 11:12:00 -
[235]
Originally by: Karentaki TBH, I agree with the suggestion to make mission deadspace a free-fire zone. If the mission runners want to shoot the salvagers that's fine, but the salvagers should be able to defend themselves.
yes, its a good suggestion. But I think mission runners will get some other kind of visitors in their missions then , which arent that friendly like salvagers However, I support this
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Bonny Lee
Caldari The Guardian Agency Guardian Federation
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Posted - 2009.07.23 11:16:00 -
[236]
This has been discussed a lot... im so tired of hitting carebears.
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Sara Careless
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.07.23 11:29:00 -
[237]
dude in blue!
tell ur boss that if he nerfs ninjasalvaging i stop paying for this account here!
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XhaleDK
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Posted - 2009.08.06 20:58:00 -
[238]
This sux.. i don't complain much about this game.. But this really sux..
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THE L0CK
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Posted - 2009.08.06 20:58:00 -
[239]
Originally by: XhaleDK This sux.. i don't complain much about this game.. But this really sux..
Nice necro
Originally by: Whitehound
If I think, but I do not.
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Adamantor
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Posted - 2009.08.06 21:56:00 -
[240]
Fleet with someone and run a looter. This prevents anyone from taking your loot and lets you knock out the mission quicker (or with atleast the same ISK/Hr if you work on your tactics)
I don't see many mechanics in game encouraging mission fleets, but this is one of them.
Stop flying solo missions and you'll avoid this problem completely.
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Chantilly Layce
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Posted - 2009.08.07 12:03:00 -
[241]
NINJAz FOREVAH !!!!! |
Erick Odin
Amarr UNIX ALLSTARS
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Posted - 2009.08.07 12:51:00 -
[242]
this whole idea of ninja salvaging being 'no risk.' Well, you risk your reputation. You risk a war declaration. I submit that your mission running is a no risk activity. Heck, I'll go so far as to say that ninja salvagers are your only real risk when you run missions. And now you want to remove it? Somehow I'm not surprised.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.08.07 13:06:00 -
[243]
Originally by: Malcanis ITT: Hi-sec mission runners complaining about other people making lots of ISK with no risk.
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Salliene
Gallente Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.08.07 13:08:00 -
[244]
I hate to see how people inflate figures so much in these arguments. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, they do it with everything else in the game.
Ninja salvaging is not some money printing machine. People who say that ninja salvaging offers tons of risk free money are lying to add weight to their own arguments. For a noob ninja salvaging is great money relative to their SP. But for any character older than 3 months there are many, many career options that offer far greater monetary reward. You could blitz level 3's in a BC and make more money than ninja salvaging level 4s.
Someone earlier also said that if you run missions in a hub that you are guaranteed to get invaded 50% of the time. I know this is a lie because I ninja in a hub, and the number of times I have been ninja'ing a mission and ANOTHER ninja shows up in the same mission has been exactly 2 times. If ninjas were as prevalent as people want CCP to believe, then ninjas would be bumping into other ninjas OFTEN.
If you want to get CCP to change salvaging, and that is your right as a player to do so, then offer FACTS and actual FIGURES. Not whines and opinions. CCP already knows about ninja salvagers, and they know that some people don't like them. But until you can come up with some sort of clear cut evidence that it is a game problem and not just a bunch of sour grapes and specious moral arguments, there is nothing that will be done.
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Eldern Minderhost
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Posted - 2009.08.07 13:45:00 -
[245]
CCP... please please please make mission deadspaces like nullsec! I want to drench my hands in the carebear blood.
More seriously, it takes time and dedication to scan down missions; if you morons learned scanning mechanics and fit ECCM or flew smaller ships you would be harder to find. But nooo.... that would lower your efficiency and actually make the missions a challenge.
Missions are unbalanced. Nerf missions and you will nerf ninja salvaging, unless this is your concept of a good idea stop whining as calling for one is calling for the other.
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Saint VII
Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2009.08.07 14:35:00 -
[246]
Personally I think it should give you an aggression flag. In the meantime, people should move to less populous mission hubs or head out to losec. My friend and I have 500k and 1m skillpoints, respectively, and we have missioned in losec without ever getting killed. And I have never seen a ninja salv, but I guess that's because L2 missions are not worth the effort. :D
No great scoundrel is ever uninteresting. |
Bestofworst Worstofbest
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2009.08.07 14:42:00 -
[247]
Like I said earlier in this thread.
Quote: Again, the whole argument of Risk vs Reward is so over done that it makes me sick just to talk about it. But if you must compare the two:
Mission running:
Risk - Can get suicide ganked, can get ninja salvaged. Reward - General saftey, can autopilot nearly everywhere between missions, great rewards.
Ninja Salvaging:
Reward - Salvage, maybe some tears. Risk - Can warp in on a mission with crap salvage, can warp in on Recon 3 of 3, can have their wrecks blown up, can become hated and hunted ("IM HIRING MERCS AFTER U!").
But please, I know that whenever someone uses the Risk vs Reward argument, they only do it to remove their risk and just get a reward.
________________________________________________
Am I an alt, main, or both? You decide! |
Novan Leon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.08.07 17:07:00 -
[248]
Question from someone inexperienced with this tactic:
When you probe a mission location, are you probing the location or are you actually probing the other player's ship using combat probes?
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Kel Nissa
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Posted - 2009.08.07 17:59:00 -
[249]
You probe for the mission runner.
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THE L0CK
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Posted - 2009.08.07 18:35:00 -
[250]
Originally by: Novan Leon Question from someone inexperienced with this tactic:
When you probe a mission location, are you probing the location or are you actually probing the other player's ship using combat probes?
You can scan down drones, ships, or structures. Ships are by far the easiest. I can get a lock on a marauder in under ten seconds now since I usually start at 8au in my hub and the freaking things come in at 46% to start. After that I reduce range on the probes at once and zero in and bam, I found you. On one occasion I did actually use a structure to track someone because for the life of me I just couldn't lock onto him specifically.
Originally by: Whitehound
If I think, but I do not.
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Novan Leon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.08.07 18:40:00 -
[251]
Originally by: THE L0CK
Originally by: Novan Leon Question from someone inexperienced with this tactic:
When you probe a mission location, are you probing the location or are you actually probing the other player's ship using combat probes?
You can scan down drones, ships, or structures. Ships are by far the easiest. I can get a lock on a marauder in under ten seconds now since I usually start at 8au in my hub and the freaking things come in at 46% to start. After that I reduce range on the probes at once and zero in and bam, I found you. On one occasion I did actually use a structure to track someone because for the life of me I just couldn't lock onto him specifically.
So the simple solution to this problem would be to make ships harder to get 100% lock on. Right now you can probe down ships in only a few seconds. If it took more effort, it might make this strategy less attractive.
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Salliene
Gallente Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.08.07 18:46:00 -
[252]
Originally by: Novan Leon
So the simple solution to this problem would be to make ships harder to get 100% lock on. Right now you can probe down ships in only a few seconds. If it took more effort, it might make this strategy less attractive.
Your simple solution nerfs probing for the non-ninja salvaging crowd. The reason it only takes a "few seconds" to probe down a mission runner is because we are not looking for anyone specific and mission runners are all clustered in a few systems around a few planets.
Finding an individual player, someone who is actively trying NOT to be probed, takes a lot longer than a few seconds. Making probing harder so that MR's stop whining is entirely unfair to the PVP crowd.
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THE L0CK
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Posted - 2009.08.07 18:46:00 -
[253]
Originally by: Novan Leon
Originally by: THE L0CK
Originally by: Novan Leon Question from someone inexperienced with this tactic:
When you probe a mission location, are you probing the location or are you actually probing the other player's ship using combat probes?
You can scan down drones, ships, or structures. Ships are by far the easiest. I can get a lock on a marauder in under ten seconds now since I usually start at 8au in my hub and the freaking things come in at 46% to start. After that I reduce range on the probes at once and zero in and bam, I found you. On one occasion I did actually use a structure to track someone because for the life of me I just couldn't lock onto him specifically.
So the simple solution to this problem would be to make ships harder to get 100% lock on. Right now you can probe down ships in only a few seconds. If it took more effort, it might make this strategy less attractive.
I have ease for 2 reasons. 1: I trained the necessary skills pretty high and 2: Marauders are a beacon in space with their massive sig radius. Then battleships and exhumers, then BC's. But try scanning out a cruiser and smaller and its like trying to catch a fly on Meth in a football stadium.
In other words I'm good at what I do. When I started this profession I'd be lucky to find a moon.
Originally by: Whitehound
If I think, but I do not.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.08.07 19:41:00 -
[254]
Originally by: THE L0CK Its unfair to them because the mission runners have a nonissue with one group.
Fixed.
It's a flawed "solution" to a problem that doesn't exist. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Maiga Deal
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Posted - 2009.11.02 02:08:00 -
[255]
As long as i'm running missions in high sec, more an more of these cheesy thieves appear, and also more often. Meanwhile it's annoying, but as long as this "profession" does'nt lead to an aggression flag, i'll rather kill all the wrecks than feed these morons.
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Thargorr
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.11.02 02:43:00 -
[256]
Originally by: Liz Laser This topic is like watching two fat kids fight over who gets more whipped cream on their banana split, when what they should really do is eat their da*n vegetables.
This bit on page one should have been a genuine /thread. 9 pages? WTF happened?
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Logit Probit
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Posted - 2009.11.02 03:59:00 -
[257]
Anyone who asserted the need for any kind of a change in a post in this thread is part of the problem.
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Annaphera
Minmatar United Freemerchants Society
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Posted - 2009.11.02 05:30:00 -
[258]
One possible solution (not one I'd really be happy to see go in the game, but it would work) would be to give the mission rats a chance to 'detect' an active salvager and if they haven't taken damage, switch targets to the salvager. Make the salvagers work for their iskies, and fly ships with some tank. It could be explained away background-wise as the rats mistaking the discharge from the salvagers for a laser.
That said, the solution I personally advocate is to have an alt in a salvage-equipped BC or BS start cleaning up wrecks as soon as your main has all of the mission aggro. You may still lose some wrecks to ninja salvagers, but not many.
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Marguerite Antiki
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Posted - 2009.11.02 05:38:00 -
[259]
Originally by: Logit Probit Anyone who asserted the need for any kind of a change in a post in this thread is part of the problem.
So true considering this damned thread was posted - 2009.05.07 19:17:00 - was left to die on the 2009.08.07 and nublet Maiga Deal just brought it out again.
Yay I love these topics being beaten over and over..... /sarcasm.
Please. no more. it makes baby jebus cry....
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Bloody Rabbit
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Posted - 2009.11.02 06:53:00 -
[260]
Originally by: Marguerite Antiki
Originally by: Logit Probit Anyone who asserted the need for any kind of a change in a post in this thread is part of the problem.
So true considering this damned thread was posted - 2009.05.07 19:17:00 - was left to die on the 2009.08.07 and nublet Maiga Deal just brought it out again.
Yay I love these topics being beaten over and over..... /sarcasm.
Please. no more. it makes baby jebus cry....
I love tears, also I fit a scram on my mission running maga so I don't understand the problem. But I shoot anyone who enters my missions anyways.
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Kazang
Gallente Wrecking Shots
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Posted - 2009.11.02 07:30:00 -
[261]
Edited by: Kazang on 02/11/2009 07:32:09 The risk in doing level 4's is non existent.
Then you say stealing from another player that then results in aggro with an enitre corp is risk free?
Kazang
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Dharh
Gallente Ace Adventure Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.02 07:56:00 -
[262]
Edited by: Dharh on 02/11/2009 07:56:00 I'll keep saying until my face is blue with lack of oxygen. High sec needs to become more open. _All_ mission space should flag intruders with an aggression timer after a couple seconds. CONCORD should never interfere in mission space. All wrecks should be tractorable by anyone. All wrecks should be lootable/salvagable by anyone. When looted/salvaged all wrecks should cause faction decreases/aggression timers against the original faction/owner of the wreck _and_ the killer if its a ninja (in mission space this would be redundant). This aggression flag should last a long time.
Those who want to avoid pvp could still avoid it. But rats and ninjas would be open to attacks from more angles and be more vulnerable, as it should be.
High sec protects ninja salvager's too much and does not prepare anyone for low/null sec. It's high time CONCORD butt out everywhere except areas immediately around station space.
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Decarus
Amarr The R.I.T.U.A.L Corp Twilight Federation
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Posted - 2009.11.02 08:47:00 -
[263]
Originally by: Maiga Deal @ --> 2009.11.02 02:08:00 <-- As long as i'm running missions in high sec, more an more of these cheesy thieves appear, and also more often. Meanwhile it's annoying, but as long as this "profession" does'nt lead to an aggression flag, i'll rather kill all the wrecks than feed these morons.
Considering the elitist attitude of most of eve players towards any non-eve player I find this general lack of forum sense, on these eve forums, to be honestly quite laughable.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.11.02 09:30:00 -
[264]
Originally by: Dharh I'll keep saying until my face is blue with lack of oxygen. High sec needs to become more open. _All_ mission space should flag intruders with an aggression timer after a couple seconds. CONCORD should never interfere in mission space.
Of course, with that kind of change, no flagging would be necessary to begin with…
Quote: Those who want to avoid pvp could still avoid it. But rats and ninjas would be open to attacks from more angles and be more vulnerable, as it should be.
It would also make mission-running largely obsolete, which isn't a good thing.
Quote: High sec protects ninja salvager's too much and does not prepare anyone for low/null sec.
It protects the ninjas just as much as it protects the mission runners because neither party is doing anything "bad". ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
N Ano
Caldari Zerg Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.02 09:45:00 -
[265]
I saw this thread and my palm met my face.
Originally by: Blane Xero SoonÖ. Shortly AfterÖ Iceland Conquers the WorldÖ
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Ashani Osaka
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.11.02 09:55:00 -
[266]
waa waa waa, if a ninja warps in, u warp out.
there now u have +1 wreck.
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Casimir Fenring
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Posted - 2009.11.02 10:31:00 -
[267]
Originally by: Emperor Cheney I think an interesting solution would be to make deadspace a complete free-fire zone. Effectively a nerf to both missioning and ninja salvaging while fair to both, and it would make empire interesting.
I run missions and I hate it. But I hate all the other ways of making money even more. If they could be spiced up and have them be nerfed a bit to make mining more profitable (as it should be), that would work out for everyone. And then the people who are afraid of fighting can go mine veldespar, as they should.
SO bring PvP to PvE? Mission running is a means to wealth without engaging in PVP combat, which many, myself included, don't care for. It also give people the time and ISK they need to develop the skills needed to succeed in lo/no-sec space, skills which give me a better chance of NOT being slagged by the pimply-faced gits that infest lo/no-sec, which is what I'm doing now.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.11.02 10:33:00 -
[268]
Originally by: Casimir Fenring It also give people the time and ISK they need to develop the skills needed to succeed in lo/no-sec space, skills which give me a better chance of NOT being slagged by the pimply-faced gits that infest lo/no-sec, which is what I'm doing now.
No. Time spent on doing missions will not let you develop those skills. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
N Ano
Caldari Zerg Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.02 10:38:00 -
[269]
Originally by: Casimir Fenring
Originally by: Emperor Cheney I think an interesting solution would be to make deadspace a complete free-fire zone. Effectively a nerf to both missioning and ninja salvaging while fair to both, and it would make empire interesting.
I run missions and I hate it. But I hate all the other ways of making money even more. If they could be spiced up and have them be nerfed a bit to make mining more profitable (as it should be), that would work out for everyone. And then the people who are afraid of fighting can go mine veldespar, as they should.
SO bring PvP to PvE? Mission running is a means to wealth without engaging in PVP combat, which many, myself included, don't care for. It also give people the time and ISK they need to develop the skills needed to succeed in lo/no-sec space, skills which give me a better chance of NOT being slagged by the pimply-faced gits that infest lo/no-sec, which is what I'm doing now.
Eve is a game where PVP and player interaction are a daily thing. You agree to both those things the second you log in.
Originally by: Blane Xero SoonÖ. Shortly AfterÖ Iceland Conquers the WorldÖ
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nafiy gnaw
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Posted - 2009.11.02 11:33:00 -
[270]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Casimir Fenring It also give people the time and ISK they need to develop the skills needed to succeed in lo/no-sec space, skills which give me a better chance of NOT being slagged by the pimply-faced gits that infest lo/no-sec, which is what I'm doing now.
No. Time spent on doing missions will not let you develop those skills.
I think he means skill points.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.11.02 11:36:00 -
[271]
Originally by: nafiy gnaw
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Casimir Fenring It also give people the time and ISK they need to develop the skills needed to succeed in lo/no-sec space, skills which give me a better chance of NOT being slagged by the pimply-faced gits that infest lo/no-sec, which is what I'm doing now.
No. Time spent on doing missions will not let you develop those skills.
I think he means skill points.
I think Tippia means - correctly - that a day of actual lo-sec experience will be more useful than a million SP when it comes to surviving and thriving outside of hi-sec.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.11.02 11:49:00 -
[272]
Originally by: nafiy gnaw
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Casimir Fenring It also give people the time and ISK they need to develop the skills needed to succeed in lo/no-sec space, skills which give me a better chance of NOT being slagged by the pimply-faced gits that infest lo/no-sec, which is what I'm doing now.
No. Time spent on doing missions will not let you develop those skills.
I think he means skill points.
I know he does, and I'm saying that the skill points are irrelevant. If he think he'll survive better because he has more SP, he won't last a second, no matter how many missions he run and how many SP he accrues.
Here's what you need to have trained to survive: + Mechanic I — this allows you to train… + Hull Upgrades I — this allows you to fit an inertia stabilizer. + Spaceship Command I — this allows you to train… + [racial] Frigate II — this allows you to fly the "fast" frigates. + Navigation IV – this allows you to train… + Afterburner IV — …which allows you to train… + High Speed Maneuvering I — this allows you to fit an MWD.
That's 94,839 SP… Optionally, you might want: + Electronics V – which allows… + Cloaking I — the use of which is pretty obviousl
That's another 257,500 SP, though, so all in all, the SP required will take you, oh, maybe as much as a week to get. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
nafiy gnaw
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Posted - 2009.11.02 11:58:00 -
[273]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: nafiy gnaw
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Casimir Fenring It also give people the time and ISK they need to develop the skills needed to succeed in lo/no-sec space, skills which give me a better chance of NOT being slagged by the pimply-faced gits that infest lo/no-sec, which is what I'm doing now.
No. Time spent on doing missions will not let you develop those skills.
I think he means skill points.
I know he does, and I'm saying that the skill points are irrelevant. If he think he'll survive better because he has more SP, he won't last a second, no matter how many missions he run and how many SP he accrues.
Here's what you need to have trained to survive: + Mechanic I ù this allows you to trainà + Hull Upgrades I ù this allows you to fit an inertia stabilizer. + Spaceship Command I ù this allows you to trainà + [racial] Frigate II ù this allows you to fly the "fast" frigates. + Navigation IV û this allows you to trainà + Afterburner IV ù àwhich allows you to trainà + High Speed Maneuvering I ù this allows you to fit an MWD.
That's 94,839 SPà Optionally, you might want: + Electronics V û which allowsà + Cloaking I ù the use of which is pretty obviousl
That's another 257,500 SP, though, so all in all, the SP required will take you, oh, maybe as much as a week to get.
But skill points does come into play if both pilots are equally experienced.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.11.02 12:03:00 -
[274]
Originally by: nafiy gnaw But skill points does come into play if both pilots are equally experienced.
At that point, chances are that nothing will happen at all, since both will be trying to make the other guy tip his hand and reveal how far away his backup is…
While they're doing the dance, their respective SP will lay idle, and once the backup arrives, SP once again no longer matters. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Dharh
Gallente Ace Adventure Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.02 15:06:00 -
[275]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Dharh I'll keep saying until my face is blue with lack of oxygen. High sec needs to become more open. _All_ mission space should flag intruders with an aggression timer after a couple seconds. CONCORD should never interfere in mission space.
Of course, with that kind of change, no flagging would be necessary to begin withà
Of course flagging will be necessary. If you take what I have 'claimed', which includes the mission space, I should be able to defend it. That would be the whole purpose of making it FFA. If everyone can take everything but no one can attack eachother over it then its meaningless and lame.
Originally by: Tippia
Quote: Those who want to avoid pvp could still avoid it. But rats and ninjas would be open to attacks from more angles and be more vulnerable, as it should be.
It would also make mission-running largely obsolete, which isn't a good thing.
No it wouldn't. Mission running's purpose is to inject ISK into the system, and to provide LP and standing to the mission runner. Missions will always be able to provide this regardless.
Originally by: Tippia
Quote: High sec protects ninja salvager's too much and does not prepare anyone for low/null sec.
It protects the ninjas just as much as it protects the mission runners because neither party is doing anything "bad".
My point is its over protective. If it isn't bad to salvage, why is it bad to loot? The loot on the wreck is not any more mine than the salvage is.
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Hiroshima Jita
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Posted - 2009.11.02 16:09:00 -
[276]
I'm slowly grinding my security status back from -10 in order to do this stuff. Im over halfway there, not flashy red anymore. My plan is to put a cheap pvp BS in a mission hub, scan peoples missions. Salvage and loot with a rifter or a stabber or something cheap, and if someone actually fires on me, go try to blow them up.
One guy I know who does this says people are mostly wise to the tactic. He used to put all kinds of stupid faction killmails on the board but lately not so much.
Also you forget that Hyenas kill things as well. And when a lion decides to take it (happens as often as a hyena trying to take a lions kill) the hyena is probablty screwed unless hes got alot of buddies and the lion doesn't. When talking about ninja salvaging its not a good idea for a pve player to assume he is a lion and the guy annoying him by taking his stuff is a hyena. In fact I could pull out many killmails that suggests its a very bad idea.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.11.02 16:21:00 -
[277]
Originally by: Dharh Of course flagging will be necessary. If you take what I have 'claimed', which includes the mission space, I should be able to defend it.
If CONCORD didn't interfere in mission space — as you suggested — then flagging wouldn't be needed. You could just blow the other guy away on sight.
Quote: No it wouldn't. Mission running's purpose is to inject ISK into the system, and to provide LP and standing to the mission runner. Missions will always be able to provide this regardless.
Yes, but with your suggestion, no-one would ever run them (if the forums are to be believed) since all mission-space would become lowsec for all intents and purposes — again: what you suggested was no CONCORD interference. So nasty evil gankers would just blow MRs up as they scanned them down, and then wait the timer out before returning to station.
Quote: If it isn't bad to salvage, why is it bad to loot?
Because the loot is part of the reward of destroying the ship, and part of the balance that the determines how hard that should be. You've earned the loot by activating your weapons on the ship; you earn the salvage by activating your salvager on the wreck. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Garr Anders
Minmatar Thukk U
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Posted - 2009.11.02 16:30:00 -
[278]
Oh this one isnt locked yet? :D
As it has been discussed more than enough, here my proposal to "fix" it:
In the Assembly Hall: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1207847
Quote: [Proposal] Scan-able wrecks and containers/strengthen the salvager profession
Proposal:
- * Make wrecks and containers scan-able with scan probes.
Motivation:
- This would strengthen the salvager as independent profession and would allow them to scan for the wrecks that are left behind by mission runners, rather than the need to scan for the active mission runner in his mission.
- This would ease on the relation ship between mission runners and salvagers as the salvager does not need to salvage the wrecks under the eyes of an active mission runner, especially since the mission runners still think that salvage belongs to them, which is not the case as stated by CCP several times.
- It would also relieve the database from maintaining left behind wrecks for the full two hours and could works as player driven "database cleaning" of objects.
Some further thoughts:
It should be more difficult to get a hit on a wreck than on a ship in general.
AFAIK deadspaces "cover" players ships slightly from scanning making it slightly more difficult to scan them when they are in a deadspace (in the old system). In the old system ppl were thus scanning for the drones rather than for the ship itself. Im not sure how this works under the new system though.
Scanning a ship does require special probes, namely the combat probes. So scanning a mission runner indirectly by using core probes to scan the wrecks would become possible, but you wouldnt know if one is inside till you get there.
So to not make ppl abuse normal core probes to scan down mission runners "indirectly" it should be fairly difficult with cores to scan wrecks.
Still this would at least allow you to scan down for those wrecks that get left behind by a mission runner or left behind by exploration site users who didnt clean up their exploration site.
In addition since deadspaces areas dissapear after a while the "covering" of it (as stated above) will dissapear too (if it still exist), so it could be that scanning wrecks in a not active mission could/can be easier than scanning for wrecks in an active mission
Further, :
- It's not Ninja salvaging, since currently you're doing it right under the nose of the mission runner. There is nothing stealthy about it . It would be ninja if you could do it without noticing the salvager.
- It's not stealing as CCP has stated several times that they want salvaging to be an independent profession.
----- Garr Anders
"The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet. - referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
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Wiley Peterson
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Posted - 2009.11.02 16:39:00 -
[279]
Does anyone have any evidence that salvage represent 20-30% of total mission rewards. I counted up my earnings from 4 level 2 mission runs last night. Bounties were approx 450k, rewards were about 290k, loot was less than 200k, salvage was 1.8 million.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.11.02 16:46:00 -
[280]
Originally by: Wiley Peterson Does anyone have any evidence that salvage represent 20-30% of total mission rewards.
Yes.
Quote: I counted up my earnings from 4 level 2 mission runs last night.
L2s are a transitional phase that everyone goes through and which don't add much in the larger scale of things. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
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Wiley Peterson
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Posted - 2009.11.02 16:57:00 -
[281]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Wiley Peterson Does anyone have any evidence that salvage represent 20-30% of total mission rewards.
Yes.
Quote: I counted up my earnings from 4 level 2 mission runs last night.
L2s are a transitional phase that everyone goes through and which don't add much in the larger scale of things.
Well in about half of my missions so far I have had ninjas popping up. If they start salvaging while I am still fighting rats, I usually warp away, but this makes it a lot longer to complete missions. So at my level, they are making it really difficult to progress, ISK-wise.
If I was making more from the rewards plus bounty, I wouldn't mind them so much, as I would be better off finishing the mission quicker and moving on to the next one. Maybe if they just let the salvage stay for an hour, even if the mission is turned in or quit there could be a balance.
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Captain Tardbar
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Posted - 2009.11.02 16:59:00 -
[282]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Wiley Peterson Does anyone have any evidence that salvage represent 20-30% of total mission rewards.
Yes.
Quote: I counted up my earnings from 4 level 2 mission runs last night.
L2s are a transitional phase that everyone goes through and which don't add much in the larger scale of things.
Even so... You are not simply entitled to that income by the intended game mechanics. It just so happens some of the salvaged material is worth a good deal.
Perhaps the truth of the matter is that profit from salvaging is too high to begin with and should be reduced because there is no risk in earning it.
Perhaps we will make a compromise, wrecks in high sec are by default open to the public and can be salvaged by anyone.
Wrecks in low sec, null sec, and WH are by default yours and will cause a criminal flag and give you kill rights on the offending ninja savager.
There... With the added risk versus reward, you now have an incentive to move out to low sec.
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Camios
Minmatar Insurgent New Eden Tribe Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.11.02 17:20:00 -
[283]
I have found the solution.
Lvl 4 mission runners would like to shoot at ninjia salvagers? Let them do it. There are some possibilities: 1)move all l4 to lowsec 2)make all lvl4 deadspaces aggression free, in the sense that concord cannot see what is happening there (why otherwise they will ask you to go there instead of calling the police) so you can shoot them (but they can shoot you).
I think that this change would be reasonable since you can make a lot of money from lvl4 without any risk. This would be a nerf to lvl4, but a nerf to salvaging too (salvaged materials price would rocket up maybe)
Otherwise, the fact of being ninjia salvaged compensates a bit for the fact that lvl4 missioning in empire is more profitable than 0.0 ratting.
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Dharh
Gallente Ace Adventure Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.02 17:57:00 -
[284]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Dharh Of course flagging will be necessary. If you take what I have 'claimed', which includes the mission space, I should be able to defend it.
If CONCORD didn't interfere in mission space ù as you suggested ù then flagging wouldn't be needed. You could just blow the other guy away on sight.
I was using flagging as a way to stop CONCORD from interfering. The mission runner must fire first, if the ninja attempts to attack, they might not get CONCORDED, but they would certainly get flagged for a few hours or days. They are now open to anyone in the guild EVEN in CONCORD space.
Originally by: Tippia
Quote: No it wouldn't. Mission running's purpose is to inject ISK into the system, and to provide LP and standing to the mission runner. Missions will always be able to provide this regardless.
Yes, but with your suggestion, no-one would ever run them (if the forums are to be believed) since all mission-space would become lowsec for all intents and purposes ù again: what you suggested was no CONCORD interference. So nasty evil gankers would just blow MRs up as they scanned them down, and then wait the timer out before returning to station.
They are lying liers who lie. They will do missions. I will do missions. You might even do a mission. Also the timer would last hours or days not 15 minutes. We would all adjust.
Originally by: Tippia
Quote: If it isn't bad to salvage, why is it bad to loot?
Because the loot is part of the reward of destroying the ship, and part of the balance that the determines how hard that should be. You've earned the loot by activating your weapons on the ship; you earn the salvage by activating your salvager on the wreck.
I don't agree with that viewpoint of ownership. The only guaranteed reward should be the mission reward itself on completion. Everything else should be FFA.
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Caldari Citizen4714
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Posted - 2009.11.02 17:59:00 -
[285]
Originally by: Isakova its completely risk free
Not true.
If you'd said less risky, I would agree with you.
But there are a number of mission runners in motsu that will camp out in a that recon mission with the toxic gas cloud. Tens, if not hundreds of ninja salvager ships have been lost, mostly to deliberate mission runner action.
I had a friend lose a rigged covops before they had small rigs....
There is also the risk of getting attacked by rats. You can fly cheap and not care, but not everyone does. So saying there is no risk not true.
Originally by: Isakova This is far too open for abuse, and is getting to the point where theres 2 ninjas for every 10 mission runner in a hub.
Looks like we need to start recruiting then. There are far too many missions where I'm the only ninja. - Support DISBANDING the Alliance CCP Renamed at the Alliance's Request |
Picard Facepalm
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.11.02 19:19:00 -
[286]
Originally by: Malcanis How about we make deadspaces equivalent to 0.0, with no CONCORD presence (which would explain why agents need expensive, unreliable pod pilots to go and do the job). Then missioners could bring lots of risk to ninja salvagers.
Or maybe just make them lo-sec? So there's a small sec hit for initiating a fight but then you're good to go!
This. Throw in removal of ALL insurance, and we're good.
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Kweel Nakashyn
shadow and cloaking Mordus Angels
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Posted - 2009.11.02 19:42:00 -
[287]
Ninja Salvage is fun. Try it, you'll see.
You won't make more isk/hour than L4 !
It's pretty balanced. Beer > Eve ? Eve > Beer ?(omgwtf ! no bbq ! no bbq !) |
Southern Suzy
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.11.02 19:54:00 -
[288]
another 0/10 dead horse beating topic So wait this is the end of my post allready?
I'm not in multiple alliances to spy! I'm in them so I'll always be on the winning team |
Zxepa
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Posted - 2009.11.02 22:48:00 -
[289]
Why doesn't anyone see the supreme irony when comparing salvaging to high-sec missioning? You're complaining about a sub-profession being way too "easy" to accomplish whilst you yourself, reap the benefits of a likewise, extraordinarily simplistic game mechanic that is High-sec missioning.
You want to get rid of them? Grow some genitalia and pack your things to low-sec. Arguing that low-sec is much more risky than high-sec would defeat your claim to the salvage ninja occurrence because now it isn't about the salvage it's about you, again, wanting everything with the littlest effort possible to attain it. JUST ..like salvaging
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Dharh
Gallente Ace Adventure Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.02 22:55:00 -
[290]
Originally by: Zxepa Why doesn't anyone see the supreme irony when comparing salvaging to high-sec missioning? You're complaining about a sub-profession being way too "easy" to accomplish whilst you yourself, reap the benefits of a likewise, extraordinarily simplistic game mechanic that is High-sec missioning.
You want to get rid of them? Grow some genitalia and pack your things to low-sec. Arguing that low-sec is much more risky than high-sec would defeat your claim to the salvage ninja occurrence because now it isn't about the salvage it's about you, again, wanting everything with the littlest effort possible to attain it. JUST ..like salvaging
I have to say I agree with this to an extent. Which is one of the reasons I want to make missioning in high sec harsher and low sec even harsher than it already is.
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Wiley Peterson
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Posted - 2009.11.02 23:59:00 -
[291]
How about a simple adjustment of quantity and rewards?
What if the amount of salvage were quadrupled by 10? Salvage is lucrative because of supply and demand. By increasing supply, the price would drop siginificantly for individual pieces of salvage. The total amount of money from mission salvage would remain the same, but it would require more trips to and from the mission site, and/or larger cargo holds, with less isk/hour.
What if, in addition to the above, the bonus time reward was quadrupled, and addtional loyalty points given? If the runner had to make a real choice between the bonus reward and salvage, it would leave a door open for the professional salvager without upsetting the runner.
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Lendwill
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Posted - 2009.11.03 04:43:00 -
[292]
Sorry I didn't read the first 10 pages, but here is what I would consider the rough idea of a solution.
Allow a mission runner to offer a salvaging rights contract to another player/corp. That means that the player with the contract can salvage the runner's mission for an agreed-upon price. The rights to the salvage (not the loot) then belongs to the salvager holding the contract, and that salvager would get kill rights on any unauthorized salvager. However, the length of time the salvager has to salvage before it becomes open property is very short - 10 minutes or so. After that, anyone can salvage.
A salvaging rights contract would only be valid in a system where both the salvager and the mission runner have a certain standing.
This will allow the creation of professional salvagers. The price of the contract could even be zero, allowing corp members to do it for them. The ten minute time limit means the salvager has to be quick, and is taking risks to get to the salvage. It also doesn't reward mission runners who are too lazy to get people to salvage for them, who abandon their loot, or who have bad standings with the system they are missioning in.
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goodby4u
Valor Inc. Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2009.11.03 07:14:00 -
[293]
Tbh salvaging should be a criminal act just as stealing one's loot is, however nerf past this should not occur as to maintain the "you only have what you can protect" aspect of eve.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.11.03 07:21:00 -
[294]
Originally by: Lendwill Edited by: Lendwill on 03/11/2009 04:49:15 Sorry I didn't read the first 10 pages, but here is what I would consider the rough idea of a solution.
Allow a mission runner to offer a salvaging rights contract...
That would nothing more than asserting that the mission runner has those rights - while currently they dont. That's a large boost to the mission-running profession - I'd be very interested to hear an explanation as to why hi-sec mission running needs any boosting.
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goodby4u
Valor Inc. Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2009.11.03 07:30:00 -
[295]
It doesn't need boosting, however I simply wish to be able to shoot someone who steals from me.
Seems fair to me.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.11.03 07:38:00 -
[296]
Originally by: goodby4u It doesn't need boosting, however I simply wish to be able to shoot someone who steals from me.
Seems fair to me.
Sounds about as fair as being allowed to shoot someone who puts his mining lasers on a rock you are already mining from.
Has it not been explained over and over and over again that salvage is qualitatively different from loot, in that modules must be activated, skills applied, time spent in order to make salvage from a wreck? Why is this simple concept so difficult for people to understand?
That to the side, I trust I have your support for my proposal to make combat mission deadspaces lo-sec. That way you can shoot salvagers even before they "steal" any of "your" salvage. Admittedly, you will take a small sec-hit if you do so, but as long as you dont pod, then you should be fine. And you must concede that if they were space that CONCORD wont go in to, it would make much more sense that an agent is willing to pay you millions of ISK to go there.
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goodby4u
Valor Inc. Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2009.11.03 07:51:00 -
[297]
Edited by: goodby4u on 03/11/2009 07:52:52
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: goodby4u It doesn't need boosting, however I simply wish to be able to shoot someone who steals from me.
Seems fair to me.
Sounds about as fair as being allowed to shoot someone who puts his mining lasers on a rock you are already mining from.
Has it not been explained over and over and over again that salvage is qualitatively different from loot, in that modules must be activated, skills applied, time spent in order to make salvage from a wreck? Why is this simple concept so difficult for people to understand?
Let us say for instance somebody runs over and takes your stuff, would you not wish to have the ability to kill him/her?
Ninja salvaging is just the same as taking loot from a wreck, the only difference is you need to activate a module to do it.
If you are proposing that the coding for making salvaging a flag-able offense is impossible then I disagree, given it is much more difficult then it may sound on paper I wouldn't call it impossible.
As far as moving all lvl4+ missions to lowsec I may agree, however if this were to happen ccp would lose a large chunk of their playerbase and/or the people living in highsec will simply find another way to make a chunk of isk in highsec.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.11.03 10:17:00 -
[298]
Originally by: goodby4u Let us say for instance somebody runs over and takes your stuff, would you not wish to have the ability to kill him/her?
…and as it happens, you can already do this.
Quote: Ninja salvaging is just the same as taking loot from a wreck, the only difference is you need to activate a module to do it.
So it's different in that you have to activate a module to earn it. Except, of course, that it isn't different from loot in that way — in fact, it's exactly like loot in that way, which is what explains why the loot is yours and the salvage isnt:
Activate weapon → creates loot → loot is yours. Activate salvager → creates salvage → salvage is yours.
Notice how activating a weapon doesn't create salvage? If it's not you, specifically, who activates that salvager, why on earth should the salvage be yours? You didn't create it. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Yosarian
Koshaku
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Posted - 2009.11.03 10:26:00 -
[299]
- Have salvaging activate an aggression timer just like taking something from a wreck / can
- Have the timer last considerably longer than 15 mins. Personally I'd say 24 hours
Still means it's perfectly possible: but opens up more opportunity for revenge. Seems pretty Eve to me
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.11.03 10:30:00 -
[300]
It should be possible to steal mission runners' ships as well as their loot. Hacking V, activate module, board ship and shoot carebear in face.
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tx eight
Minmatar Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2009.11.03 10:51:00 -
[301]
I enjoyed reading this thread, thank you.
I will now take my stupidly overtanked WH scimitar, slap some t2 salvagers on and go try it myself. Thanks to all mission-running crybabies for the inspiration.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.11.03 11:27:00 -
[302]
Originally by: Gypsio III It should be possible to steal mission runners' ships as well as their loot. Hacking V, activate module, board ship and shoot carebear in face.
In my secret thoughts, this is what ambulation leads to.
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goodby4u
Valor Inc. Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2009.11.03 16:41:00 -
[303]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: goodby4u Let us say for instance somebody runs over and takes your stuff, would you not wish to have the ability to kill him/her?
àand as it happens, you can already do this.
Quote: Ninja salvaging is just the same as taking loot from a wreck, the only difference is you need to activate a module to do it.
So it's different in that you have to activate a module to earn it. Except, of course, that it isn't different from loot in that way ù in fact, it's exactly like loot in that way, which is what explains why the loot is yours and the salvage isnt:
Activate weapon → creates loot → loot is yours. Activate salvager → creates salvage → salvage is yours.
Notice how activating a weapon doesn't create salvage? If it's not you, specifically, who activates that salvager, why on earth should the salvage be yours? You didn't create it.
No
Activate weapon - creates wreck - wreck has my name on it it should be mine.
Salvaging it should mean your stealing from my wreck, because you are.
I really don't see the problem with my idea, all it does is give the mission runner the ability to defend his wrecks, which even have his corp/alliance name on them... It is like me telling you that you should get concorded for stealing loot in highsec.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.11.03 17:17:00 -
[304]
Originally by: goodby4u Activate weapon - creates wreck - wreck has my name on it it should be mine.
Wreck has your name on it because the contents are yours. Salvage isn't part of those contents. Why should you get ownership of it when you haven't done a thing to earn it? Put another way: if you want to effortlessly own the salvage as well, what will you give up in return? The loot? The sec status? The bounty?
Quote: Salvaging it should mean your stealing from my wreck, because you are.
Not really, no. I'm beating you to a free-for-all resource, same as if I mine the same asteroid as you.
Quote: I really don't see the problem with my idea, all it does is give the mission runner the ability to defend his wrecks
…which he already can do. That's the problem: you're trying to solve something that isn't a problem. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Yosarian
Koshaku
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Posted - 2009.11.03 18:02:00 -
[305]
If people really wanted a challenge, they'd have no issue with salvaging a wreck setting the aggression timer. To call people carebears then claim that 'ninja' salvaging as-is is a good mechanic is self defeating.
- Have salvaging a wreck (not destroyed by you) flag aggression
- Up the aggression timer for salvaging and looting to considerably more than 15 minutes. 4hrs? 24hrs?
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Cir Loin
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Posted - 2009.11.03 18:06:00 -
[306]
Originally by: Yosarian If people really wanted a challenge, they'd have no issue with salvaging a wreck setting the aggression timer. To call people carebears then claim that 'ninja' salvaging as-is is a good mechanic is self defeating.
- Have salvaging a wreck (not destroyed by you) flag aggression
All this would do is create organized groups of people who made it their job to salvage a wreck, draw aggression, then blast you out of the sky. Then we'd have endless threads of people whining about how "ninja salvagers have made mission running unsafe!" The people who whine about salvaging ultimately seem to want instanced missions.
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goodby4u
Valor Inc. Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2009.11.03 18:11:00 -
[307]
Edited by: goodby4u on 03/11/2009 18:12:17
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: goodby4u Activate weapon - creates wreck - wreck has my name on it it should be mine.
Wreck has your name on it because the contents are yours. Salvage isn't part of those contents. Why should you get ownership of it when you haven't done a thing to earn it? Put another way: if you want to effortlessly own the salvage as well, what will you give up in return? The loot? The sec status? The bounty?
Quote: Salvaging it should mean your stealing from my wreck, because you are.
Not really, no. I'm beating you to a free-for-all resource, same as if I mine the same asteroid as you.
Quote: I really don't see the problem with my idea, all it does is give the mission runner the ability to defend his wrecks
àwhich he already can do. That's the problem: you're trying to solve something that isn't a problem.
My name is on the wreck, this means I claim the wreck itself including the contents within, why the hell doesn't this make sense to you?
What shall I give up?
Well here is the question, since risk vs reward is suppose to be the driving force in eve, where is the risk for you?
For the mission runner, the risk is you can come along and salvage the phat lootz, which would still be in place if salvaging my wreck gives me the ability to kill you... The only difference is you must suffer some risk aswell and you do not like that.
I didn't create the asteroid, I have no claim on that resource, however I did create the wreck... This is the difference.
As for the poster above, ofcourse it will, it would also mean the game is much more interesting for everybody involved and thus would be great.
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Cir Loin
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Posted - 2009.11.03 18:18:00 -
[308]
Originally by: goodby4u My name is on the wreck, this means I claim the wreck itself including the contents within, why the hell doesn't this make sense to you?
I dunno, why doesn't the concept of salvage as defined within the game make sense to you?
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goodby4u
Valor Inc. Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2009.11.03 18:22:00 -
[309]
Originally by: Cir Loin
Originally by: goodby4u My name is on the wreck, this means I claim the wreck itself including the contents within, why the hell doesn't this make sense to you?
I dunno, why doesn't the concept of salvage as defined within the game make sense to you?
Based off that argument, I could say gankageddons/nanophoons/cavalry ravens/dreads that oneshot poses were fine and I shouldn't be complaining.
Just because something was introduced to a game, doesn't necessarily mean it is set in stone or balanced.
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Cir Loin
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Posted - 2009.11.03 18:54:00 -
[310]
Originally by: goodby4u
Originally by: Cir Loin
Originally by: goodby4u My name is on the wreck, this means I claim the wreck itself including the contents within, why the hell doesn't this make sense to you?
I dunno, why doesn't the concept of salvage as defined within the game make sense to you?
Based off that argument, I could say gankageddons/nanophoons/cavalry ravens/dreads that oneshot poses were fine and I shouldn't be complaining.
Just because something was introduced to a game, doesn't necessarily mean it is set in stone or balanced.
When you make an actual apples to apples comparison, your argument may make sense. Until then, *wahhh my salvage!*
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goodby4u
Valor Inc. Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2009.11.03 19:22:00 -
[311]
Actually I don't salvage, I just blitz.
I couldn't care less what happens to said salvage... However I think you should be at risk for getting such reward.
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Cir Loin
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Posted - 2009.11.03 19:26:00 -
[312]
Originally by: goodby4u Actually I don't salvage, I just blitz.
I couldn't care less what happens to said salvage... However I think you should be at risk for getting such reward.
So you're whining about something you don't care about? That's sort of awesome.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.11.03 19:36:00 -
[313]
Originally by: goodby4u Actually I don't salvage, I just blitz.
I couldn't care less what happens to said salvage... However I think you should be at risk for getting such reward.
What risks are you taking?
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goodby4u
Valor Inc. Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2009.11.03 19:42:00 -
[314]
Edited by: goodby4u on 03/11/2009 19:43:00
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: goodby4u Actually I don't salvage, I just blitz.
I couldn't care less what happens to said salvage... However I think you should be at risk for getting such reward.
What risks are you taking?
I could get killed by rats or my salvage could be taken, sure token risks but this is up against his complete lack of risk.
Hell adding aggro to salvaging wouldn't be a buff at all, it will simply make it risky to take somebody's salvage and as I have said make the game alot more interesting as a result.
Who said I was whining? I am simply sending forth a way to add danger to the action of stealing somebody's salvage.
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N00byn00blar
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Posted - 2009.11.03 19:49:00 -
[315]
I agree with above poster but also I think the current mechanic is pretty much pointless apart from it has some ability to generate frustration/annoyance in the mission runner. Well, that's why the "ninja salvagers" do it (maybe there are some running it for profit, but not many), as they admit many times in this thread and others. imho a game mechanic that is just there so that one group of players can ass-hat another, is really in need of some attention.
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Benedict Carol
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Posted - 2009.11.03 19:53:00 -
[316]
Good lord, this thread is still ongoing?
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Annaphera
Minmatar United Freemerchants Society
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Posted - 2009.11.03 20:13:00 -
[317]
Edited by: Annaphera on 03/11/2009 20:14:41 After thinking about it, I'd like to see CCP make two small tweaks to mission running/ninja salvaging:
1) To add at least a bit of risk to the mission runners, how about they tweak the AI on the rats to something more like the Sleepers, and add more scramblers? Why not give each pirate faction slightly different behaviors that get more intelligent the higher the mission level goes? Guristas already jam, and in some missions they almost seem to take turns; formalize that. Give the others their own real behaviors...maybe one primaries drones like the Sleepers, another jumps on anyone using a logistics mod, and so on.
2) To keep the ninja's on their toes and give the MR's that don't have/can't afford an alt a fair shot at the loot, make rats that haven't been aggro'd aggress against anyone using a salvager at a decent range. I've had ninjas race my salvage alt to wrecks, and I sort of feel bad for anyone without one. Once they (the MR) have aggro, the ninjas are pretty much free to do whatever they want without any risk at all; even taking the loot is near risk-free if the MR is tanking a 5+ BS rats. Before anyone says it, PvE fit =/= PvP fit, and with some of those missions you'd cripple yourself if you put a scram and a way to chase down a frig on your mission ship.
Again, before the flames start - I'm not advocating stopping the ninja salvagers, and CCP has said they support it as a mini-profession. I'd just like to see it become a bit more of a challenge and give the MR's at least a semi-fair shot at those wrecks they made, and the loot that goes with them. Anyone here who tries to say that ninja salvagers don't take the best loot more often than not is being naive. Anyone who tries to say that most ninja 'salvagers' don't have a larger (likely t2) PvP-fit ship docked nearby and thus WANT the mission runner to shoot at them is just not being honest.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.11.03 20:36:00 -
[318]
Edited by: Tippia on 03/11/2009 20:43:02
Originally by: goodby4u
Originally by: Malcanis What risks are you taking?
I could get killed by rats
No you do not.
Quote: or my salvage could be taken
Right. So the ninjas are in fact facing the exact same risks as you do, so what is the problem here? Why should the ninjas face more risk than you do, especially considering the higher effort they already have to put in?
Quote: it will simply make it risky to take somebody's salvage
It already is — stealing someone's salvage gives you aggression.
Quote: Who said I was whining?
You did, by advocating a change for no good reason.
Originally by: Annaphera 2) To keep the ninja's on their toes and give the MR's that don't have/can't afford an alt a fair shot at the loot,
Let's stop right there. Mission runners already have a fair shot at the loot — more than a fair shot, in fact. They have every advantage they could get, and if they squander that, it's their own fault and their problem. You have zero need for an alt to do that.
Quote: I'd just like to see it become a bit more of a challenge and give the MR's at least a semi-fair shot at those wrecks they made, and the loot that goes with them.
They are already on-site. They have complete control over where and when wrecks will appear. They can tractor the wrecks. They get kill rights if someone steals from the wrecks… The only way for an MR not to have far more than "a semi-fair shot" already is if he's a complete idiot. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Annaphera
Minmatar United Freemerchants Society
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Posted - 2009.11.03 21:19:00 -
[319]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Annaphera 2) To keep the ninja's on their toes and give the MR's that don't have/can't afford an alt a fair shot at the loot,
Let's stop right there. Mission runners already have a fair shot at the loot — more than a fair shot, in fact. They have every advantage they could get, and if they squander that, it's their own fault and their problem. You have zero need for an alt to do that.
Yes, because while the MR is tanking multiple BS's and a swarm of smaller ships, they always have plenty of cap left to AB around and turn a salvager on those wrecks. If the ship they are in has enough high slots for a tractor and salvager and the CPU and PG to squeeze it in; that goes double for the AB. Quite a few ninja salvagers that I have seen take that as the perfect time to pick up the choice bits of loot as well, while the MR doesn't have the resources to stop them. News Flash: not all MR's can afford a CNR or a Golem!
Originally by: Tippia
Quote: I'd just like to see it become a bit more of a challenge and give the MR's at least a semi-fair shot at those wrecks they made, and the loot that goes with them.
They are already on-site. They have complete control over where and when wrecks will appear. They can tractor the wrecks. They get kill rights if someone steals from the wrecks… The only way for an MR not to have far more than "a semi-fair shot" already is if he's a complete idiot.
There are multiple 'rooms' in many missions, so the MR isn't always the only one 'already on-site. I've seen ninjas sitting outside stations that have L4 agents trying to guess the direction an MR is headed to make them easier to scan down...they can find you fairly fast.
'Complete control' is often 'try and pop them before they get close', so it is often well beyond tractor range. Or did you forget we were talking about PvE fits that usually pack long-range weapons and count on them to avoid damage? Most MR ships are NOT blaster boats! Since the ninja could very well be there from the moment you get aggro in the second 'room' in a mission, they can pick choice bits of loot while you're still trying to tank the rest of the room, making going after them tough. See the first part of this response regarding the wisdom of trying to use AB's, tractors and salvagers while an active tank is running. Again, not all MR's fly Golems, so how exactly do we tractor those wrecks at 40 km, or race the frigate-flying ninja to them in a battleship?
Oh, and did you miss the part where a lot of ninjas have PvP fit ships or friends on standby, and thus WANT the MR to shoot at their frigate? Makes opening fire less than desirable, don't you think? As in, you'd have to be a complete idiot to take the shot or be willing to warp away as soon as he pops and hide in a station until the aggression timer runs out, while he cleans up the rest of the wrecks?
Also, please recall that I was advocating making the missions harder as well, and kindly tone down the superior attitude.
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goodby4u
Valor Inc. Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2009.11.03 21:20:00 -
[320]
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 03/11/2009 20:43:02
Originally by: goodby4u
Originally by: Malcanis What risks are you taking?
I could get killed by rats
No you do not.
Quote: or my salvage could be taken
Right. So the ninjas are in fact facing the exact same risks as you do, so what is the problem here? Why should the ninjas face more risk than you do, especially considering the higher effort they already have to put in?
Quote: it will simply make it risky to take somebody's salvage
It already is ù stealing someone's salvage gives you aggression.
Quote: Who said I was whining?
You did, by advocating a change for no good reason.
When was the last time a ninja got ninja'd? They do not face the same risks the mission runner does.... And there is risk of losing one's ship in a mission, the only reason solo lvl 4 runners don't is because they are educated enough not to die.
So if someone swoops down to my wreck, salvages it, I can shoot them without being concorded? If not then I cannot.
No good reason? There are a number of reasons I have already stated, chief of those is adding risk to the person taking the missioners salvage.
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Cory Sopapilla
Minmatar Kiroshi Group
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Posted - 2009.11.03 21:21:00 -
[321]
Originally by: Cir Loin
Originally by: Yosarian If people really wanted a challenge, they'd have no issue with salvaging a wreck setting the aggression timer. To call people carebears then claim that 'ninja' salvaging as-is is a good mechanic is self defeating.
- Have salvaging a wreck (not destroyed by you) flag aggression
All this would do is create organized groups of people who made it their job to salvage a wreck, draw aggression, then blast you out of the sky. Then we'd have endless threads of people whining about how "ninja salvagers have made mission running unsafe!" The people who whine about salvaging ultimately seem to want instanced missions.
I don't buy that for a minute. Carebears are asking for more PVP and the PVPers are arguing against it to hide behind Concord. If what you said were true, they'd already have organized groups stealing loot rather than salvage to draw them in with the red blinky aggression. Instead they avoid the loot and hide behind concord while leeching since they know a lvl 4 mission fit is not suicide gank fit or profitable on insurance loss. We want more explosions!
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Cir Loin
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Posted - 2009.11.03 21:26:00 -
[322]
Originally by: Cory Sopapilla
I don't buy that for a minute. Carebears are asking for more PVP and the PVPers are arguing against it to hide behind Concord. If what you said were true, they'd already have organized groups stealing loot rather than salvage to draw them in with the red blinky aggression. Instead they avoid the loot and hide behind concord while leeching since they know a lvl 4 mission fit is not suicide gank fit or profitable on insurance loss. We want more explosions!
*You* might, but I suspect a lot of the people who run missions full time do not, or they would mission in low sec.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.11.03 21:44:00 -
[323]
Originally by: goodby4u When was the last time a ninja got ninja'd? They do not face the same risks the mission runner does....
They face the exact same risk: that someone else (eg. the MR) beats them to the wreck.
Quote: And there is risk of losing one's ship in a mission
…which has nothing to do with the risk of collecting salvage.
Quote: So if someone swoops down to my wreck, salvages it, I can shoot them without being concorded? If not then I cannot.
No, but if someone steals your salvage, you can.
Quote: No good reason? There are a number of reasons I have already stated.
No. Those are just your misunderstandings about how things should work — not a reason to change how they work. You need to provide a reason why missions need to be buffed. You need to provide a reason why MRs are incapable of using they many means at their disposal to win the competition over salvage. You need to explain why competing over salvage is a bad thing. You need to explain why ninjas aren't entitled to what they've worked for (worked harder, I might once again add, than the MR).
Originally by: Annaphera Yes, because while the MR is tanking multiple BS's and a swarm of smaller ships, they always have plenty of cap left to AB around and turn a salvager on those wrecks. If the ship they are in has enough high slots for a tractor and salvager and the CPU and PG to squeeze it in; that goes double for the AB.
By the time they can properly run L4s, yes. Yes they have. If they don't, then it's once again their problem that they haven't fitted their ships properly to win the competition over resources. If a miner puts smartbombs in all his high slots and then complains that everyone else keeps mining out the asteroids, what would you tell him?
Quote: There are multiple 'rooms' in many missions, so the MR isn't always the only one 'already on-site.
That's his choice. If he chooses not to take advantage of it, then that's his problem (and a very easy problem to avoid).
Quote: 'Complete control' is often 'try and pop them before they get close', so it is often well beyond tractor range.
His choice, his problem, very easy to avoid. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Traidor Disloyal
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2009.11.03 21:52:00 -
[324]
Originally by: Tippia Activate weapon → creates loot → loot is yours. Activate salvager → creates salvage → salvage is yours.
This needs to be put in big bold letters somewhere. Even someone has slow has myself can understand this. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it. |
Plim
Gallente Kobayashi Maru Experience
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Posted - 2009.11.03 22:00:00 -
[325]
Originally by: Tippia Activate weapon → creates loot → loot is yours. Activate weapon → creates wreck → Activate salvager → creates salvage → salvage is yours.
---- Me - Plim Character. You - Non-Plim Character. |
Annaphera
Minmatar United Freemerchants Society
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Posted - 2009.11.03 22:30:00 -
[326]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Annaphera Yes, because while the MR is tanking multiple BS's and a swarm of smaller ships, they always have plenty of cap left to AB around and turn a salvager on those wrecks. If the ship they are in has enough high slots for a tractor and salvager and the CPU and PG to squeeze it in; that goes double for the AB.
By the time they can properly run L4s, yes. Yes they have. If they don't, then it's once again their problem that they haven't fitted their ships properly to win the competition over resources. If a miner puts smartbombs in all his high slots and then complains that everyone else keeps mining out the asteroids, what would you tell him?
Ah, so we're all supposed to wait until we can run level 4's "properly", then we won't have this problem, eh? What exactly is "proper" for level 4's? A marauder? That's a lot of isk to gather if we can't do level 4's...
I do have a way to "win the competition for resources", one that you dismissed arrogantly a post or so ago - an alt in a salvage fitted ship. I win most of those resource fights, actually, and more thoroughly than I would if I only had one or two tractors and salvagers. However, spending RL cash isn't a solution everyone has open to them, and anything that requires either that or waiting for a Golem is a bit outlandish.
Originally by: Tippia
Quote: There are multiple 'rooms' in many missions, so the MR isn't always the only one 'already on-site.
That's his choice. If he chooses not to take advantage of it, then that's his problem (and a very easy problem to avoid).
Err...really? It is the MR's choice if a ninja scans him down while he's clearing the first 'room' and is ready and waiting when he moves to the second? In what universe? I want to know, because it would settle all the issues in this thread if it were really so.
Originally by: Tippia
Quote: 'Complete control' is often 'try and pop them before they get close', so it is often well beyond tractor range.
His choice, his problem, very easy to avoid.
So, now MR's should stop using long-range weapons and stop using range as a defense because you don't want to admit that PROPER PvE tactics put the MR at a disadvantage versus ninja salvagers.
See what I did there?
I also noticed that you didn't answer my charge that MR's would be stupid to just open fire on ninjas that loot and thus become flagged. Did you get the point, or just run out of straw-man space?
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N00byn00blar
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Posted - 2009.11.03 22:35:00 -
[327]
This debate is all academic imho. For example, a system I just passed though (a mission running system):
Quote: Yorlock > /emote wanted more smack, is left confused as to whether you Concorded yourslef, got can flipped, or ganked... more tears and details please
It's not about resources, or loot, or making money for the ninja, it's about being an ass to others. That's all.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.11.03 22:42:00 -
[328]
Originally by: Annaphera What exactly is "proper" for level 4's?
A battlecruiser is a good start.
Quote: I do have a way to "win the competition for resources", one that you dismissed arrogantly a post or so ago - an alt in a salvage fitted ship.
I dismissed it as a requirement to have a fair chance. It's completely unnecessary for that.
Quote: Err...really? It is the MR's choice if a ninja scans him down while he's clearing the first 'room' and is ready and waiting when he moves to the second?
Unless the ninja has brought his own weapons and tank to take on that second room, yes, and if he has, then the whole excuse of "I shot it, I should get everything without effort" argument becomes even more invalid than it already is.
Quote: So, now MR's should stop using long-range weapons and stop using range as a defense because you don't want to admit that PROPER PvE tactics put the MR at a disadvantage versus ninja salvagers.
See what I did there?
Yes: you missed the point. The point was that the MR has a choice in how he wants to approach the business of running missions. Completely unsurprisingly, not all setups will be optimal for all situations. Want to be sure of winning the salvage race? Then you'll likely have to make sacrifices elsewhere since you're trying to do two things at once with the same ship.
Quote: I also noticed that you didn't answer my charge that MR's would be stupid to just open fire on ninjas that loot and thus become flagged.
Oh, was that addressed at me? I didn't answer it because it had nothing to do with anything I've said. I tend to ignore strawmen arguments. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
goodby4u
Valor Inc. Cosmic Anomalies
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Posted - 2009.11.03 22:46:00 -
[329]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: goodby4u When was the last time a ninja got ninja'd? They do not face the same risks the mission runner does....
They face the exact same risk: that someone else (eg. the MR) beats them to the wreck.
Quote: And there is risk of losing one's ship in a mission
àwhich has nothing to do with the risk of collecting salvage.
Quote: So if someone swoops down to my wreck, salvages it, I can shoot them without being concorded? If not then I cannot.
No, but if someone steals your salvage, you can.
Quote: No good reason? There are a number of reasons I have already stated.
No. Those are just your misunderstandings about how things should work ù not a reason to change how they work. You need to provide a reason why missions need to be buffed. You need to provide a reason why MRs are incapable of using they many means at their disposal to win the competition over salvage. You need to explain why competing over salvage is a bad thing. You need to explain why ninjas aren't entitled to what they've worked for (worked harder, I might once again add, than the MR).
MR cannot beat them to a wreck when he is possibly running multiple rooms/currently fighting something etc... They definately do not have this risk.
No but this is the risk MRs take to make their money and create those wrecks to salvage from, the ninjas don't suffer from this same risk.
When they salvage my wreck they are stealing what the wreck is made up of, ie proportional to one of the following.
Swiping a can from somebody.
Using a turret on said can.... If I remember correctly one cannot tractor beam another's wreck yes? So why should salvagers be different?
1)Mission runners won't be buffed, you would be able to steal the wreck all the same, you will simply need to protect yourself in the process.
2)If you have two people racing on a track and one is getting beaten to a pulp in the process while the other is simply running which is better? This is why mission runners are often incapable of fighting for the salvage.
3)It isn't, however I like to compete with my lasers rather then my speed.
4)Scanning is damn easy now, I have several people in my corp that learned how to scan within the first couple of days they started, however learning how to properly run lvl 4s takes much longer.
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Harrpy Helcina
Gallente Level 3 Industries Overtime Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.03 22:48:00 -
[330]
Edited by: Harrpy Helcina on 03/11/2009 22:48:41 I don't know if this was said before but a counter could be created.
Say, a jammer that fits in a high slot that makes your dead space area harder to find by the ninjas
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Dharh
Gallente Ace Adventure Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.03 22:51:00 -
[331]
Originally by: Cir Loin
Originally by: Cory Sopapilla
I don't buy that for a minute. Carebears are asking for more PVP and the PVPers are arguing against it to hide behind Concord. If what you said were true, they'd already have organized groups stealing loot rather than salvage to draw them in with the red blinky aggression. Instead they avoid the loot and hide behind concord while leeching since they know a lvl 4 mission fit is not suicide gank fit or profitable on insurance loss. We want more explosions!
*You* might, but I suspect a lot of the people who run missions full time do not, or they would mission in low sec.
Don't delude yourself as many 'pvpers' do. There are plenty of MRs who would be perfectly fine with being able to engage in pvp. They just don't want to do it low/null sec. A PVE fit might not be the same as a PVP fit, but there are PVP/PVE fits that would blow a majority of salvager fits out of space.
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Captain Tardbar
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.11.03 22:51:00 -
[332]
I'll just leave this here...
Originally by: CCP Incognito Had a chat with some designers this evening.
Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private.
They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.
Posted - 2009.11.03 18:45:00
Source
QFT.
End.
Of.
Discussion.
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Wiley Peterson
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Posted - 2009.11.03 22:55:00 -
[333]
Originally by: Tippia You need to explain why ninjas aren't entitled to what they've worked for (worked harder, I might once again add, than the MR).
You have to be ****ting me. Have you even done any missions? Have you even done any ninja salvaging? I can't imagine anyone who has tried both (I have) would make such an obviously false claim.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.11.03 22:58:00 -
[334]
Edited by: Tippia on 03/11/2009 23:01:18
Originally by: goodby4u MR cannot beat them to a wreck when he is possibly running multiple rooms/currently fighting something etc... They definately do not have this risk.
Yes he can, if he chooses to.
Quote: No but this is the risk MRs take to make their money and create those wrecks to salvage from, the ninjas don't suffer from this same risk.
And guess what: the MRs are already being rewarded handsomely for that risk. Salvage is not part of that reward.
Quote: If I remember correctly one cannot tractor beam another's wreck yes? So why should salvagers be different?
Because salvagers don't move something that belongs to someone else, unlike tractors.
Quote: 1)Mission runners won't be buffed, you would be able to steal the wreck all the same, you will simply need to protect yourself in the process.
Yes they will be. Suddenly, salvage is part of the mission rewards.
Quote: 2)If you have two people racing on a track and one is getting beaten to a pulp in the process while the other is simply running which is better?
Whomever is faster, which is not affected by their being beaten to a pulp or not.
Quote: 3)It isn't, however I like to compete with my lasers rather then my speed.
So go to lowsec.
Quote: 4)Scanning is damn easy now, I have several people in my corp that learned how to scan within the first couple of days they started, however learning how to properly run lvl 4s takes much longer.
So? I assume this is a counter-argument to ninja-salvaging taking more effort, in which case you're still incorrectly believing that salvaging is the same as running missions. The respective efforts we're talking about here are:
MR: Approach wreck, activate tractor when in range, salvage. Ninja: Scan for ship, assess value, warp, approach wreck all the way, salvage.
Originally by: Wiley Peterson You have to be ****ting me. Have you even done any missions? Have you even done any ninja salvaging? I can't imagine anyone who has tried both (I have) would make such an obviously false claim.
How is it false? Or are you also confusing the business of running missions with the business of salvaging? See above for a comparison of the effort involved for the respective parties. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.11.03 22:58:00 -
[335]
Originally by: Cory Sopapilla
Originally by: Cir Loin
Originally by: Yosarian If people really wanted a challenge, they'd have no issue with salvaging a wreck setting the aggression timer. To call people carebears then claim that 'ninja' salvaging as-is is a good mechanic is self defeating.
- Have salvaging a wreck (not destroyed by you) flag aggression
All this would do is create organized groups of people who made it their job to salvage a wreck, draw aggression, then blast you out of the sky. Then we'd have endless threads of people whining about how "ninja salvagers have made mission running unsafe!" The people who whine about salvaging ultimately seem to want instanced missions.
I don't buy that for a minute. Carebears are asking for more PVP and the PVPers are arguing against it to hide behind Concord.
That's a lie and you know it. Carebears are asking for a change that they hope will reduce the number of professional salvagers. The kind of PvP they have in mind is, at best heavily armed battleship getting to choose whether to initiate combat with a frigate.
If you genuinely want more PvP, then you can support my proposal to make combat mission deadspaces lo-sec space (That is: lo-sec pockets within hi-sec systems). It will give you everything you say you want - without any need for any changes in the way salvage works. If anyone turns up in your mission, you'd be free to shoot them on sight. Anyone who initiated combat would of course be stuck in the mission for 15 minutes, but hey, actions have consequences, right? And that'd work against anyone who come looking to just gank you. You'd have 15 minutes to get your revenge.
You'd still have all the advantage of hi-sec when it comes to logistics, supply, etc. And if someone invaded your mission and you suspected a trap, you could warp right out in to good ole safe-but-dull hi-sec space whenever you liked.
And of course it would resolve the age-old glaring anomaly of what all those legions of pirate battleships and massive space installations are doing in hi-sec, completely ignored by CONCORD and the faction navies.
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Dharh
Gallente Ace Adventure Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.03 23:00:00 -
[336]
Originally by: Captain Tardbar I'll just leave this here...
Originally by: CCP Incognito Had a chat with some designers this evening.
Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private.
They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.
Posted - 2009.11.03 18:45:00
Source
QFT.
End.
Of.
Discussion.
It's not the fact that others can salvage wrecks made by a MRs guns that are the problem. It's that they can enter the mission area and can do so protected by CONCORD. CONCORD really has no business protecting mission space anyway.
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Wiley Peterson
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Posted - 2009.11.03 23:02:00 -
[337]
Originally by: Tippia [
Quote: If I remember correctly one cannot tractor beam another's wreck yes? So why should salvagers be different?
Because salvagers don't move something that belongs to someone else, unlike tractors.
So now wrecks belong to someone? Holy logical inconsistency.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.11.03 23:04:00 -
[338]
Originally by: Wiley Peterson
Originally by: Tippia Because salvagers don't move something that belongs to someone else, unlike tractors.
So now wrecks belong to someone? Holy logical inconsistency.
Not really, no. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Myra2007
Shafrak Industries
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Posted - 2009.11.03 23:05:00 -
[339]
Originally by: Wiley Peterson stuff
Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."
Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.
Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.) --
Originally by: Professor Slocombe
I will only buy tickets if the prize is your stuff and you leave Eve. Forever. You irritating self obsessed cretin.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.11.03 23:06:00 -
[340]
Originally by: Dharh
It's not the fact that others can salvage wrecks made by a MRs guns that are the problem. It's that they can enter the mission area and can do so protected by CONCORD. CONCORD really has no business protecting mission space anyway.
Agreed! So I'll put you down as a supporter for my idea then?
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Ezcalli
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Posted - 2009.11.03 23:08:00 -
[341]
Originally by: N00byn00blar This debate is all academic imho. For example, a system I just passed though (a mission running system):
Quote: Yorlock > /emote wanted more smack, is left confused as to whether you Concorded yourslef, got can flipped, or ganked... more tears and details please
It's not about resources, or loot, or making money for the ninja, it's about being an ass to others. That's all.
Likely true, and nothing is going to be changed. To be honest, there are already ways around the ninjas, and plenty of people use them. Watching both sides get all arrogant and defensive about how low-real-risk what they do is just makes me lol. Given the ships they use, and the occasional MR they get to pop with a Curse or something because they agressed and the poor fool opened fire, ninjas probably make their isk for as low true risk as the MR's themselves, but wow they get as defensive as the MR's when you point that out.
There is plenty of isk in level 4's to go around, and the competition doesn't really gouge either side badly.
So...(and this is equally aimed at my own corp mate)...what is all the whining about??
(Disclaimer: I'm a miner. I acknowledge that what I do is next-to-no-risk. I'm not about to start whining about the little risks I do have. )
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Dharh
Gallente Ace Adventure Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.03 23:10:00 -
[342]
Edited by: Dharh on 03/11/2009 23:11:16
Originally by: Tippia MR: Approach wreck, activate tractor when in range, salvage. Ninja: Scan for ship, assess value, warp, approach wreck all the way, salvage.
More like
MR: Get Mission, tank/kill ships, create wreck, waste slots for tractor and salvager, approach wreck (most likely while getting shot at), waste target slot for target of wreck that could be used for shooting ships, tractor wreck at < 20km, salvage Ninja: scan for ship (max a few minutes), assess value (couple seconds), warp, approach wreck to within <5km, salvage
Still the work to do all this is what it is and shouldn't necessarily change in itself. I would actually rather _loot_ from the wrecks also be FFA (heck its usually worth far less than the salvage).
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Dharh
It's not the fact that others can salvage wrecks made by a MRs guns that are the problem. It's that they can enter the mission area and can do so protected by CONCORD. CONCORD really has no business protecting mission space anyway.
Agreed! So I'll put you down as a supporter for my idea then?
Pretty much yes. Add to that loot being FFA and wrecks being tractorable by anyone.
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Plim
Gallente Kobayashi Maru Experience
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Posted - 2009.11.03 23:11:00 -
[343]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Cory Sopapilla
Originally by: Cir Loin
Originally by: Yosarian If people really wanted a challenge, they'd have no issue with salvaging a wreck setting the aggression timer. To call people carebears then claim that 'ninja' salvaging as-is is a good mechanic is self defeating.
- Have salvaging a wreck (not destroyed by you) flag aggression
All this would do is create organized groups of people who made it their job to salvage a wreck, draw aggression, then blast you out of the sky. Then we'd have endless threads of people whining about how "ninja salvagers have made mission running unsafe!" The people who whine about salvaging ultimately seem to want instanced missions.
I don't buy that for a minute. Carebears are asking for more PVP and the PVPers are arguing against it to hide behind Concord.
That's a lie and you know it. Carebears are asking for a change that they hope will reduce the number of professional salvagers. The kind of PvP they have in mind is, at best heavily armed battleship getting to choose whether to initiate combat with a frigate.
If you genuinely want more PvP, then you can support my proposal to make combat mission deadspaces lo-sec space (That is: lo-sec pockets within hi-sec systems). It will give you everything you say you want - without any need for any changes in the way salvage works. If anyone turns up in your mission, you'd be free to shoot them on sight. Anyone who initiated combat would of course be stuck in the mission for 15 minutes, but hey, actions have consequences, right? And that'd work against anyone who come looking to just gank you. You'd have 15 minutes to get your revenge.
You'd still have all the advantage of hi-sec when it comes to logistics, supply, etc. And if someone invaded your mission and you suspected a trap, you could warp right out in to good ole safe-but-dull hi-sec space whenever you liked.
And of course it would resolve the age-old glaring anomaly of what all those legions of pirate battleships and massive space installations are doing in hi-sec, completely ignored by CONCORD and the faction navies.
Surely this would put more ninja in ninja salvaging? ---- Me - Plim Character. You - Non-Plim Character. |
Wiley Peterson
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Posted - 2009.11.03 23:16:00 -
[344]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Wiley Peterson
Originally by: Tippia Because salvagers don't move something that belongs to someone else, unlike tractors.
So now wrecks belong to someone? Holy logical inconsistency.
Not really, no.
Then please explain how wrecks can be free-for-all and simultaneously only tractorable by the mission runner, if everything is "working as intended."
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.11.03 23:17:00 -
[345]
Edited by: Tippia on 03/11/2009 23:22:25
Originally by: Dharh More like
MR: Get Mission, tank/kill ships, create wreck,
Irrelevant in the whole effort–for–salvage line of argument, since this part is already fully rewarded.
Quote: waste slots for tractor and salvager,
Funnily enough, some of the best mission-running ships have utility slots for this (or similar) purposes, so nothing is wasted. At any rate, it doesn't change the effort involved in salvaging.
Quote: approach wreck (most likely while getting shot at),
Being shot at makes no difference in terms of salvaging effort… (Well, at least not if you're in a mission-running ship, since it's set up for the express purpose of being shot at).
Quote: waste target slot for target of wreck that could be used for shooting ships,
Only a waste if he's actually firing at multiple targets at once — i.e. being hugely ineffective. Even then, once again funnily enough, the better MR ships have target slots in spades. Also, it makes no terms in the effort required for salvaging.
Originally by: Wiley Peterson Then please explain how wrecks can be free-for-all and simultaneously only tractorable by the mission runner, if everything is "working as intended."
As has been explained roughly fifty bazillion times in this thread alone: moving a wreck also moves the container in said wreck. If said container isn't yours, you can't move it. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Dharh
Gallente Ace Adventure Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.03 23:20:00 -
[346]
Originally by: Ezcalli
Originally by: N00byn00blar This debate is all academic imho. For example, a system I just passed though (a mission running system):
Quote: Yorlock > /emote wanted more smack, is left confused as to whether you Concorded yourslef, got can flipped, or ganked... more tears and details please
It's not about resources, or loot, or making money for the ninja, it's about being an ass to others. That's all.
Likely true, and nothing is going to be changed. To be honest, there are already ways around the ninjas, and plenty of people use them. Watching both sides get all arrogant and defensive about how low-real-risk what they do is just makes me lol. Given the ships they use, and the occasional MR they get to pop with a Curse or something because they agressed and the poor fool opened fire, ninjas probably make their isk for as low true risk as the MR's themselves, but wow they get as defensive as the MR's when you point that out.
There is plenty of isk in level 4's to go around, and the competition doesn't really gouge either side badly.
So...(and this is equally aimed at my own corp mate)...what is all the whining about??
(Disclaimer: I'm a miner. I acknowledge that what I do is next-to-no-risk. I'm not about to start whining about the little risks I do have. )
The whining is about the perceived notion that a created wreck somehow belongs to the killer in entirety. If someone else so much as sneezes at the wreck its a violation of the killers virginity.
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Dharh
Gallente Ace Adventure Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.03 23:29:00 -
[347]
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 03/11/2009 23:19:17
Originally by: Dharh More like
MR: Get Mission, tank/kill ships, create wreck,
Irrelevant in the whole effortûforûsalvage line of argument, since this part is already fully rewarded.
Quote: waste slots for tractor and salvager,
Funnily enough, some of the best mission-running ships have utility slots for this (or similar) purposes, so nothing is wasted. At any rate, it doesn't change the effort involved in salvaging.
Quote: approach wreck (most likely while getting shot at),
Being shot at makes no difference in terms of salvaging effort.
Quote: waste target slot for target of wreck that could be used for shooting ships,
Only a waste if he's actually firing at multiple targets at once ù i.e. being hugely ineffective. Even then, once again funnily enough, the better MR ships have target slots in spades. Also, it makes no terms in the effort required for salvaging.
As I said, it is what it is. The wreck would _not_ exist without the efforts of the MR. Obviously it shouldn't have such a large bearing on the discussion that it means a salvager should not be able to salvage said wreck. But the fact that it seems to have zero bearing on the argument just makes me want to suggest that your entire opinion on the matter is lacking in merit altogether. Then again, you already don't believe any argument but your own has any merit.
Other than blowing up the wrecks there are no ways to prevent a salvager getting what they want. A salvager is always faster than a MR ship, always. Even warping out with enemy still in the pocket usually never works.
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the plague
Scoopex Majesta Empire
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Posted - 2009.11.04 00:01:00 -
[348]
Originally by: Cutie Chaser It is the lions job to run the hyenas off of his kill; if he'd rather share then feast then he dines with filth.
I agree with you in principle, however, isn't this the very heart of the problem? The lion can't "run the hyenas off" because if he bites one he then gets popped by Concord.
Ninja salvagers should be able to scan and steal, after all this is EVE. However, the owner of the wrecks should at least be able to fight to protect his kill. When the "lion" is penalized for fighting, that's not very EVE-like and probably something the devs need to take a second look at.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.11.04 00:02:00 -
[349]
Edited by: Malcanis on 04/11/2009 00:06:08 EvE has lots of much more glaring inconsistencies than that, but one thing CCP have been pretty consistent about is prioritising game balance and game play over making trivial details logically coherent.
Indeed, this is mirrored in real life; I bet you could cite offhand at least half a dozen bizarre anomalies in the law which are well known, but nonetheless remain because some things are more important than consistency.
You can make a decent argument that it would be consistent to make salvaging flaggable in the same way loot is. but Tippia and others - specifically CCP, whose opinion counts in this - have made even better ones that it is not desirable.
In short: get over it. It's a weird anomaly which is required for game balance, like having nuclear warhead missiles that make explosions which expand at only a few hundred meters per second, or having 1400mm artillery shells which only take up 0.04m^3 of cargo space.
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Elldranga
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Posted - 2009.11.04 00:17:00 -
[350]
Another guy gave me this info a while ago... I tried it, and it totally works.
Just run enemies abound. On 5 of 5, just get in a very strong tanked BS. Warp to the mission and start the timer... then wait. Get the full spawn (can be quite hard to tank). The moment you see a mission runner warping in, warp out. That mission locks faster than even a small frig can warp out, and the total dps of the full spawn will insta pop them. They have no chance of survival, no matter what ship they are in.
Rinse and repeat. Eventually you get bored cause you're running out of ninjas. Complete the mission, loot the ninja's wrecks. (you'd be suprised what a noob ninja will carry into another mission).
It's easy as pie to have a guaranteed ninja kill.
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Cadde
Gallente 221st Century Warfare
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Posted - 2009.11.04 00:33:00 -
[351]
I mean WOW!
12 pages and change about such a simple thing as:
Quote: The salvage in the wrecks DOES NOT belong to you until you have it in your cargohold.
It's really that simple! It's impossible to steal something that doesn't belong to anyone until it's in the cargohold.
My opinions belong to me, you can't have them!
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E Vile
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Posted - 2009.11.04 00:40:00 -
[352]
Salvage should flag you attackable just like looting. If I own the loot, I own the salvage.
and....who says no one fits a scram for missions.
In hubs where ninja rats are a issue, GROUP with fellow mission runners. When a ninja comes, you get him. If he returns to jump you, have everyone in group warp to you, and enjoy serving some justice.
Work with your community to make your neighborhood safer.
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Cadde
Gallente 221st Century Warfare
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Posted - 2009.11.04 00:43:00 -
[353]
Originally by: E Vile Salvage should flag you attackable just like looting. If I own the loot, I own the salvage.
Says who? Not the devs... They own the game, you don't.
My opinions belong to me, you can't have them!
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Plim
Gallente Kobayashi Maru Experience
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Posted - 2009.11.04 00:58:00 -
[354]
Edited by: Plim on 04/11/2009 00:58:58
Originally by: Cadde I mean WOW!
12 pages and change about such a simple thing as:
Quote: The salvage in the wrecks DOES NOT belong to you until you have it in your cargohold.
It's really that simple! It's impossible to steal something that doesn't belong to anyone until it's in the cargohold.
I think people are discussing the idea that it might be an improvement for it to not be that way.
It's really that simple.
Ownership of wrecks and salvage is actually an arbitrary decision on CCP's part, taken to create the current game mechanics. There is no natural course of reasoning that implies that it does or does not belong to a player, it's a game mechanic which should be chosen based on it's impact on the game. In-fact CCP have changed ownership mechanics before in other respects.
Personally I think that salvaging a wreck that someone else has created should result in flagging, in order to encourage PvP. A situation that some carebears seem to be trying to avoid.
---- Me - Plim Character. You - Non-Plim Character. |
Cadde
Gallente 221st Century Warfare
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Posted - 2009.11.04 01:21:00 -
[355]
Originally by: Plim
I think people are discussing the idea that it might be an improvement for it to not be that way.
It's really that simple.
Ownership of wrecks and salvage is actually an arbitrary decision on CCP's part, taken to create the current game mechanics. There is no natural course of reasoning that implies that it does or does not belong to a player, it's a game mechanic which should be chosen based on it's impact on the game. In-fact CCP have changed ownership mechanics before in other respects.
Personally I think that salvaging a wreck that someone else has created should result in flagging, in order to encourage PvP. A situation that some carebears seem to be trying to avoid.
If CCP did that then they would have to make it so sites that can be scanned down with exploration probes changed ownership as well, initiating a hacking module on a container in a site you didn't find first would get you flagged too.
But sure, lets play with this notion (No, i didn't read all pages) that the ninja gets flagged to the wreck owner. Would the wreck owner shoot the ninja salvager? It's the same exact situation that can flippers exploit to get miners to aggress them so they can come back and pop their hulks for free. What good does this bring to the table for the mission runner?
A ninja salvager ship, commonly a destroyer with a few salvager modules fitted and an afterburner, is pretty cheap compared to a level 4 capable battleship. If said ninja salvager is in a ship designed to get under the guns or survive the damage from said battleship and scramble it then there is a completely other situation as well, now the ninja can keep that mission runner in place while the NPC's attack him all day long. It's like getting a parasite.
Of course this can be solved by having the NPC's change target to the ninja but not only would this be an odd mechanic because the ninja is actually HELPING the pirates to fight the mission runner. But also open for exploitation by a mission runner who is scrammed by the NPC's and in a situation he cannot win.
Quote: Please come salvage a wreck of mine so these NPC's will let me go and i save my BS, i will cover the cost of your salvager ship!
Don't forget that Missions are pretty easy to master because they are the same, every time, all the time. I can run hundreds of missions without risking anything at all, just make ISK like nothing has happened. At least ninja salvagers provide a counterbalance to this safety by taking away some of the profits i could make. Not to mention gankers, they can at any time come in and alphastrike my tank so it fails against the NPC's. That's the only risk mission runners face and that risk is slim at best. Still, mission runners make as much and even more ISK than 0.0 ratters make at this time.
My opinions belong to me, you can't have them!
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Plim
Gallente Kobayashi Maru Experience
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Posted - 2009.11.04 01:45:00 -
[356]
Originally by: Cadde
Originally by: Plim
I think people are discussing the idea that it might be an improvement for it to not be that way.
It's really that simple.
Ownership of wrecks and salvage is actually an arbitrary decision on CCP's part, taken to create the current game mechanics. There is no natural course of reasoning that implies that it does or does not belong to a player, it's a game mechanic which should be chosen based on it's impact on the game. In-fact CCP have changed ownership mechanics before in other respects.
Personally I think that salvaging a wreck that someone else has created should result in flagging, in order to encourage PvP. A situation that some carebears seem to be trying to avoid.
If CCP did that then they would have to make it so sites that can be scanned down with exploration probes changed ownership as well, initiating a hacking module on a container in a site you didn't find first would get you flagged too.
But sure, lets play with this notion (No, i didn't read all pages) that the ninja gets flagged to the wreck owner. Would the wreck owner shoot the ninja salvager? It's the same exact situation that can flippers exploit to get miners to aggress them so they can come back and pop their hulks for free. What good does this bring to the table for the mission runner?
It at least gives them the chance to fight the ninja salvagers. The possibility of getting killed in the process is the consequence of trying to defend what they think is theirs. It all sounds good to me. They wouldn't have to agress them.
---- Me - Plim Character. You - Non-Plim Character. |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.11.04 06:13:00 -
[357]
Originally by: Plim It at least gives them the chance to fight the ninja salvagers.
And that's where the argument falls down: it assumes that this isn't already the case, which is patently false. Mission runners already have this chance — they're just too lazy to do it. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Plim
Gallente Kobayashi Maru Experience
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Posted - 2009.11.04 06:36:00 -
[358]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Plim It at least gives them the chance to fight the ninja salvagers.
And that's where the argument falls down: it assumes that this isn't already the case, which is patently false. Mission runners already have this chance ù they're just too lazy to do it.
Yeah, I suppose they can invade their homes and force them to play naked TwisterÖ.
I wasn't thinking outside the box.
---- Me - Plim Character. You - Non-Plim Character. |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.11.04 08:58:00 -
[359]
Originally by: Dharh But the fact that it seems to have zero bearing on the argument just makes me want to suggest that your entire opinion on the matter is lacking in merit altogether.
It has no bearing for the very simple reason that salvaging is not meant to pad mission-runners wallets. It's meant to pad salvagers wallets. The mechanics that enable salvagers to do their job isn't particularly relevant when what we're discussing here is the competition between two parties that want the same salvage.
That's really the fundamental problems with the standard salvage whine: it comes from a person who cannot understand that it's two completely separate activities.
Quote: Other than blowing up the wrecks there are no ways to prevent a salvager getting what they want. A salvager is always faster than a MR ship, always. Even warping out with enemy still in the pocket usually never works.
This isn't true either. A normal salvager is faster than some of the cookie-cutter/standard-go-to mission running ships… but what's wrong with that? One of the salvagers in the competition come in with a ship built for the purpose; another comes with a ship that's not. Is it not reasonable that the one with the right tools get an advantage for his intelligent choice? And even then, CCP has been kind enough to bestow a number of handicaps on the mission runner so that he can compete quite well even in a less-than-optimal ship!
Again: salvaging is a separate activity to mission running. It is not meant to pad mission-runners wallets. It is not a part of mission rewards. If you want to engage in both activities side by side, you have to make sacrifices on one side or the other: want to be the most efficient at salvaging? Then your MR:ing will probably suffer. Want to be the most efficient at MR:ing? Then your salvaging will probably suffer (and as many experience MRs happily point out: if you want to be really effective, salvaging and looting is a waste of time since it keeps you away from the important business of earning bounties and LP).
So the defences you have against ninja salvagers will require sacrifices. If you don't want to make those sacrifices, then you obviously aren't that interested in the salvage after all, so why should you have any inherent right to it? Conversely, if you are so keen on getting that salvage, you should put in the effort to earn it.
These sacrifices go in every direction imaginable, so you have no grounds in complaining that there isn't a solution available to you: fly a smaller ship (missions take longer, but you're much more annoying to scan down, so you'll never see any ninjas) for less risk and less reward. Fly a larger ship such as a Marauder (missions will be over in the blink of an eye, as will the salvaging process, but you're very easily probed out) for more risk and more reward. Between these two extremes, there's a legion of permutations with more or less risk, reward, and effort. It is you choice on which combination you want, but you cannot blame anyone else for the choices you make. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Plim
Gallente Kobayashi Maru Experience
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Posted - 2009.11.04 09:44:00 -
[360]
I still don't get how any of this is preferable to people shooting each other in the face.
---- Me - Plim Character. You - Non-Plim Character. |
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Jake McCord
Minmatar McCord Industries
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Posted - 2009.11.04 10:15:00 -
[361]
You realize, eventually we're going to "solution" ourselves out of a really decent game. Ok, so people can scan out missions and "steal" the salvage. Just means I have to work faster.
Crap happens, life isn't perfect. We should stop trying to make things perfect in the game. It works well as it is. Although, I would not mind seeing an aggro counter on someone salvaging a wreck they didn't make, I'm not gonna cry if it doesn't happen.
------------ I spit in the face of GoonFleet I would spit on your honor, but you have none. And May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your armpits.
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.11.04 11:04:00 -
[362]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Cory Sopapilla
Originally by: Cir Loin
Originally by: Yosarian If people really wanted a challenge, they'd have no issue with salvaging a wreck setting the aggression timer. To call people carebears then claim that 'ninja' salvaging as-is is a good mechanic is self defeating.
- Have salvaging a wreck (not destroyed by you) flag aggression
All this would do is create organized groups of people who made it their job to salvage a wreck, draw aggression, then blast you out of the sky. Then we'd have endless threads of people whining about how "ninja salvagers have made mission running unsafe!" The people who whine about salvaging ultimately seem to want instanced missions.
I don't buy that for a minute. Carebears are asking for more PVP and the PVPers are arguing against it to hide behind Concord.
That's a lie and you know it. Carebears are asking for a change that they hope will reduce the number of professional salvagers. The kind of PvP they have in mind is, at best heavily armed battleship getting to choose whether to initiate combat with a frigate.
If you genuinely want more PvP, then you can support my proposal to make combat mission deadspaces lo-sec space (That is: lo-sec pockets within hi-sec systems). It will give you everything you say you want - without any need for any changes in the way salvage works. If anyone turns up in your mission, you'd be free to shoot them on sight. Anyone who initiated combat would of course be stuck in the mission for 15 minutes, but hey, actions have consequences, right? And that'd work against anyone who come looking to just gank you. You'd have 15 minutes to get your revenge.
You'd still have all the advantage of hi-sec when it comes to logistics, supply, etc. And if someone invaded your mission and you suspected a trap, you could warp right out in to good ole safe-but-dull hi-sec space whenever you liked.
And of course it would resolve the age-old glaring anomaly of what all those legions of pirate battleships and massive space installations are doing in hi-sec, completely ignored by CONCORD and the faction navies.
Then "ninja" salvage with a combat fit.
Or in a battleship if thats your way of doing things. A missionrunner setup is a crap pvpsetup and you know it.
I just see it as another way of getting a shot at highvalue targets without loosing sec status over it. "Subtlety is a thing for philosophy, not combat. If you're going to kill someone, you might as well kill them a whole lot." - Vulcan Raven, The Last Days Of Foxhound |
Wiley Peterson
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Posted - 2009.11.04 13:35:00 -
[363]
the imbalance is in the ease of salvaging. It takes weeks, months even, for a mission runner to get to level 4. level 1-3 missions provide paltry rewards. Meanwhile, someone who has only played a couple of weeks can scan down multiple mission runners in mere minutes, earning many times what a level 1 or level 2 mission runner would be earning, and they do it without any risk. Wrecks may be FFA, but there is an obvious imbalance here.
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations
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Posted - 2009.11.04 13:55:00 -
[364]
Edited by: Tippia on 04/11/2009 13:56:00
Originally by: Wiley Peterson the imbalance is in the ease of salvaging. It takes weeks, months even, for a mission runner to get to level 4. level 1-3 missions provide paltry rewards. Meanwhile, someone who has only played a couple of weeks can scan down multiple mission runners in mere minutes, earning many times what a level 1 or level 2 mission runner would be earning, and they do it without any risk. Wrecks may be FFA, but there is an obvious imbalance here.
That's a fairly decent argument in my eyes, but as I see it, this low barrier of entry is balanced against the fact that, unlike mission-runners, these quick-trained single-purpose salvagers engage in an inherently competitive activity.
You may get there fast (training time wise), but nothing is guaranteed in terms of payoff — hell, it's not just a matter of beating other players, you have to wrestle with a whole pantheon of random-number-deities in hopes of hitting a "useful" runner leaving behind useful wrecks that give off useful salvage. Compare this to the numerous guaranteed rewards from running missions — including unrelated meta-rewards such as tax breaks and clone rights — and that long skill- and standings-grind doesn't seem all that unreasonable.
Salvaging is rather similar, in that respect, to other low-barrier/pure-PvP activities such as trading or — least demanding of them all — scamming. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Zeek Muaka
Caldari Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.04 14:02:00 -
[365]
Originally by: Wiley Peterson level 1-3 missions provide paltry rewards.
Level 3's provide a decent amount of isk actually. It just isn't the unbalanced amount that comes from Level 4's.
Originally by: Private Bank wth is tranquility ? that sick place where you lose ships and pay like 30mill for a bc? lol no i play on sisi!
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.11.04 14:47:00 -
[366]
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 07/05/2009 19:37:53
Yeah, you are right, this is a complete and utter travesty, how they dare make looting a criminal act while salvaging isn't ? Solution : make looting NOT a criminal act
Get the stuff first or blow up the wreck, your choice.
/signed.
If the loot should belong to any one its the family/corp of the rats you just killed in cold blod. Not you. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Dharh
Gallente Ace Adventure Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.04 15:05:00 -
[367]
Originally by: Tippia snip
Of course its not meant to be a part of the default reward that comes with the mission. I argue loot shouldn't either. But neither is salvage meant to 'pad' the salvagers wallet. Its just there. Like asteroids.
The problem I see is that in most every way its like mining, except that it comes in so small quantities that it bypasses a fundamental part of mining which is jetcans. Thus it bypasses a fundamental risk associated with mining more than 1 or 2 cyles of ore. And thus is bypasses any potential pvp. It seems like there is a perfectly good pvp moment wasted, in high sec. That is the _only_ thing I really care about in this discussion. Whiners who are really just wanting others locked out of their mission area don't concern me.
Although, ive gotten sidetracked here and there when I disagree on some semantics.
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Gerrick Palivorn
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Posted - 2009.12.03 09:31:00 -
[368]
Ok first off I did not read thru all that arguing...so I don't know if somebody made the point yet. Why aren't the blackops guys sweeping these guys into pvpland, with a little guidance they could be excellent covops pilots. With all the practice with the scanner they get, I bet they could rival a few of the experts doing it in PVP. Who know they may one day make an honest living in EVE pirating.
Gerrick Palivorn |
Stevens
Gorpcorp
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Posted - 2009.12.03 09:38:00 -
[369]
Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."
Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.
Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)
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Gideon Kross
Caldari Kross Industries Ltd
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Posted - 2009.12.03 10:14:00 -
[370]
Originally by: Stevens Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."
Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.
Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)
Then the mechanic is Broken.
Where is the All Important Element of Risk vs. Reward?
The Misson Runner assumes All The Risk, and Expense. (Ship Hull, Fittings, Insurance, Munitions, etc.)
What is the Ninja-Salvager Risking, Exactly? ... Harsh Words in Local/Private Convo??
Hate to say it Dev's... But your darling little "Mini Profession" is Broken, and Game Breaking by it's very nature (All Reward, No Risk).
Any other statement is just adding to the huge, steaming pile of Bovine ***** this topic has already generated.
~Fin.
- Build a man a Fire, and he'll stay warm for as long as the fuel lasts. Set a man Afire, and he'll stay warm for the rest of his very short life. -
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.12.03 10:28:00 -
[371]
Originally by: Gideon Kross
Originally by: Stevens Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."
Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.
Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)
Then the mechanic is Broken.
Where is the All Important Element of Risk vs. Reward?
The Misson Runner assumes All The Risk, and Expense. (Ship Hull, Fittings, Insurance, Munitions, etc.)
What is the Ninja-Salvager Risking, Exactly? ... Harsh Words in Local/Private Convo??
Hate to say it Dev's... But your darling little "Mini Profession" is Broken, and Game Breaking by it's very nature (All Reward, No Risk).
Any other statement is just adding to the huge, steaming pile of Bovine ***** this topic has already generated.
~Fin.
To name but one possibility, warping in to someone doing Recon 3/3
Instadead ninja...
You know some people like to AFK their ship in that mission for just this reason?
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Winters Chill
Amarr Shadow Legion.
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Posted - 2009.12.03 10:31:00 -
[372]
I think the salvagers earn every penny of isk they make.
a) its boring as hell scanning down mission runners.
b) at peak you make ~10 mil an hour, roughly the same as most empire careers
c) When I lvl 4, i see a salvager, I ignore him, finish the mission and get another one. It more time efficient to start a new level 4 that try wrestle isk of some poor street urchin who can barely afford a vigil.
'nuff said.
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Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.03 10:38:00 -
[373]
Wow. Nice necro!
Also, since the message hasn't come across even though it's been repeated over and over again: Originally by: Gideon Kross Where is the All Important Element of Risk vs. Reward?
It's right there in the race: you risk not being first to the wreck – it's the same as for the mission runner. The risk the mission runner faces is the ninja salvager; the risk the ninja salvager faces is the mission runner. The winner gets the rewards.
Quote: The Misson Runner assumes All The Risk, and Expense. (Ship Hull, Fittings, Insurance, Munitions, etc.)
…none of which are relevant to the task of getting the salvage. Those risks and expenses are paid for through the mission rewards. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
yarrmarr
Trans-Solar Works Rooks and Kings
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Posted - 2009.12.03 11:00:00 -
[374]
Edited by: yarrmarr on 03/12/2009 11:01:37
Originally by: Tippia Wow. Nice necro!
Also, since the message hasn't come across even though it's been repeated over and over again: Originally by: Gideon Kross Where is the All Important Element of Risk vs. Reward?
It's right there in the race: you risk not being first to the wreck û it's the same as for the mission runner. The risk the mission runner faces is the ninja salvager; the risk the ninja salvager faces is the mission runner. The winner gets the rewards.
Quote: The Misson Runner assumes All The Risk, and Expense. (Ship Hull, Fittings, Insurance, Munitions, etc.)
ànone of which are relevant to the task of getting the salvage. Those risks and expenses are paid for through the mission rewards.
rofl, you seriously thought about this for a long time and came up with the risk of a ninja salvager being too late at the wreck? Gosh, never have I seen a bigger risk than that.
how about rephrasing; the missionrunner is both at risk from rats AND then a ninja-salvager. Salvager only has the risk that he's too late to salvage a wreck... hmmm... balanced.
I like ninja salvagers, just adds to the vibrant sandbox that is EvE. I do think it's a bit unbalanced though when a 1 week old char can make equal amounts of isk per hour as a lvl4 mission runner while facing less risk. Maybe some more investment in a decent salvaging char could balance that out. Would do more good than nerfing lvl4's again
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N Ano
Caldari Blue Sun Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.12.03 11:05:00 -
[375]
Originally by: Gideon Kross
Originally by: Stevens Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."
Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.
Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)
Then the mechanic is Broken.
Where is the All Important Element of Risk vs. Reward?
The Misson Runner assumes All The Risk, and Expense. (Ship Hull, Fittings, Insurance, Munitions, etc.)
What is the Ninja-Salvager Risking, Exactly? ... Harsh Words in Local/Private Convo??
Hate to say it Dev's... But your darling little "Mini Profession" is Broken, and Game Breaking by it's very nature (All Reward, No Risk).
Any other statement is just adding to the huge, steaming pile of Bovine ***** this topic has already generated.
~Fin.
How is a CCP aproved mini profession "broken" please enlighten me on this
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Wesfahrn
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Posted - 2009.12.03 11:13:00 -
[376]
Remove high-sec
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Khalm
Red Federation
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Posted - 2009.12.03 11:28:00 -
[377]
STFU *****es.
This subject has been talked through and through. Ninja salvaging is fine. Deal with it or gtfo and give me your stuff.
Its absolutely ridiculous these threads keeps on popping on general section. ---
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Boink'urr
Minmatar Wasserette De Tarthorst
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Posted - 2009.12.03 11:54:00 -
[378]
Edited by: Boink''urr on 03/12/2009 11:56:01
Originally by: N Ano
How is a CCP aproved mini profession "broken" please enlighten me on this
Because if it were a REAL properly designed mini profession - we would be able to scan down wrecks. Don't you think it's a little odd that a profession that lives of wrecks can't scan for them?
It's not a miniprofession, it's an accident.
EDIT: actually what about the directional scanner? Doesn't that show wrecks on it?
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Ultranoia
Temple of THEM
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Posted - 2009.12.03 12:25:00 -
[379]
Originally by: Boink'urr
EDIT: actually what about the directional scanner? Doesn't that show wrecks on it?
It does. I often use my directional when probing to determine the amount and quality of salvage-worthy material. You can also do this to determine the initial placement of the probes.
(My first big score as a salvager was in fact not from a mission: I was flyin thru a system on my way to a hub when a little idle fiddling with the directional revealed a wreck-field of juicy tech 2 battleships lying at what seemed to be some belt, remnants of some fresh faction battle or something. Arriving on the field and firing up my salvagers I got to work, observing how the few survivors were trying to rescue the valuables from the wrecked ships of those fallen comrades and enemies. I made it off with several faction modules and a small fortune in quality salvage. Plus a reduced shield and some hate mail.)
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Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.03 12:48:00 -
[380]
Originally by: yarrmarr rofl, you seriously thought about this for a long time and came up with the risk of a ninja salvager being too late at the wreck? Gosh, never have I seen a bigger risk than that.
Not really, no. It takes at most 3 seconds to come up with the risk because it's so bloody obvious.
Quote: how about rephrasing; the missionrunner is both at risk from rats AND then a ninja-salvager. Salvager only has the risk that he's too late to salvage a wreck... hmmm... balanced.
No, that would be to (wrongly) confuse running missions with salvaging.
The mission runner is at risk from rats while running the mission – the reward for running missions is mission rewards, time rewards, bounties, LP, loot, standings. The ninja salvager doesn't get those rewards, and don't get the risk either… most of the time.
The mission runner is at risk from ninjas while salvaging – the reward for salvaging is salvage. The ninja is at risk from the mission runner while salvaging – the reward is salvage.
Both activities have their respective risks balanced against their respective awards. Just because you can do both at once doesn't mean they're the same activity. By that logic, salvaging is incredibly risky because you might fall for a contract scam and lose all your ISK…
Quote: I do think it's a bit unbalanced though when a 1 week old char can make equal amounts of isk per hour as a lvl4 mission runner while facing less risk.
Not really. Partly because they don't make equal amounts of ISK to begin with, but mainly because they're engaging in a competitive activity, which is more in line with the rest of EVE and therefore should pay proportionally better in relation to the effort involved. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
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Spurty
Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.12.03 12:55:00 -
[381]
Hows about you petition CCP to put a civilian scram on every ship, just like they do scanners.
Make them only 1point and 5km range so if you want more range, you need fit a real one, again like scan probe launchers.
You have your basic auxiliary device and your dedicated uber module that can do it betterer
Everyone should have a scram.
Originally by: Hurley I WAS NOT QUITTING SoT AND WAS NOT THINKING ABOUT JOINING IT. PL/SoT MADE A MISTAKE AND ARE NOT MAN ENOUGH TO ADMIT IT OR FIX IT.
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HeliosGal
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.12.03 13:01:00 -
[382]
Originally by: Spurty Hows about you petition CCP to put a civilian scram on every ship, just like they do scanners.
Make them only 1point and 5km range so if you want more range, you need fit a real one, again like scan probe launchers.
You have your basic auxiliary device and your dedicated uber module that can do it betterer
Everyone should have a scram.
could be interesting Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00 |
Gideon Kross
Caldari Kross Industries Ltd
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Posted - 2009.12.03 13:52:00 -
[383]
Originally by: Spurty Hows about you petition CCP to put a civilian scram on every ship, just like they do scanners.
Make them only 1point and 5km range so if you want more range, you need fit a real one, again like scan probe launchers.
You have your basic auxiliary device and your dedicated uber module that can do it betterer
Everyone should have a scram.
Problem is, as soon as you Scram them... You've lost your ship to CONCORD. (More Risk for the Mission Runner)
It never ceases to amaze me, the amount of bull**** rationalizations that people come up with to avoid the glaring fact that there really is No Risk involved for the Non-Fleet Salvager. Excluding Trigger/Proximity Aggro.
"Competitive"?? ... How is it Competitive when you know the pilot whose profit margins your cutting into, Can't retaliate against you without taking considerable loss, and kinda has thier hands tied up with .. ::hehe:: Making More Wrecks!
I don't see a whole lot of "Salvagers" all barging into the same mission deadspace, trying to Out Salvage Eachother... Do You? ... Of course not, That would be Competitive. Heavens! ::gasp:: They might have to get Aggressive with eachother, and assume some Actual Risk for once.
Enough with blowing smoke up everyone's arse about how Legit it is... It's not, and you sound foolish trying to make it seem so.
... I'm done with this topic, and others like it... Every time one comes up I just want to punch people in the throat.
- Build a man a Fire, and he'll stay warm for as long as the fuel lasts. Set a man Afire, and he'll stay warm for the rest of his very short life. -
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Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.03 14:02:00 -
[384]
Edited by: Tippia on 03/12/2009 14:02:53
Originally by: Gideon Kross "Competitive"?? ... How is it Competitive when you know the pilot whose profit margins your cutting into, Can't retaliate against you without taking considerable loss, and kinda has thier hands tied up with .. ::hehe:: Making More Wrecks!
How is it not competitive? If he takes it, you don't get it. If you take it, he doesn't get it. It's a race to get there first. The mission runner has has every chance to retaliate, but for some reason, most seem utterly unwilling to do so and want to be fed the rewards without actually earning them. If the MR makes the choice not go after the wreck, but to dilly-dally and do other things, then he has no cause to get upset when someone else beats him to the punch.
If the salvage is that important to his profit margins, he should take action to ensure that he manages to claim the stuff. If not, he's obviously not that interested, so there's no reason to complain.
Quote: I don't see a whole lot of "Salvagers" all barging into the same mission deadspace, trying to Out Salvage Eachother... Do You? ... Of course not, That would be Competitive.
Really? You never see that? Well, then I suppose the whole complaint about ninja salvagers is bogus since it apparently never happens. After all, what you're describing is exactly what happens when a ninja appears in the same room as an MR: they compete for the wrecks.
Quote: Enough with blowing smoke up everyone's arse about how Legit it is... It's not, and you sound foolish trying to make it seem so.
CCP says you're wrong – claiming otherwise is the foolish act. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
James Tritanius
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Posted - 2009.12.03 14:11:00 -
[385]
CASE 1: If the mission runner salvages on-the-go, as in, he carries tractor beams and salvagers with him to mission or have a friend in a salvaging ship while he missions, then not many ninja salvagers will bother him.
CASE 2: If the mission runner does not salvage on-the-go and still want the salvage, then he has to clear out the pocket first before exiting and getting his dedicated salvage vessel. In this case, he is subject to ZERO RISK, similar to the ninja salvager.
CASE 3: If the mission runner does not salvage on-the-go and does not want the salvage, then he will have no problem letting the ninja salvager take the salvage.
Therefore, don't pull the risk card.
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Jerid Verges
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Posted - 2009.12.03 14:41:00 -
[386]
I think I made 80%ish of my wealth Ninja-looting/salvaging around Luminaire.
First of all, it's a lot more fun then mining grinding, and a lot more profitable. But ninja-looting is also risky. Lost a ship or two when the ratter went back to a station and fitted a scrambler.
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yarrmarr
Trans-Solar Works Rooks and Kings
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Posted - 2009.12.03 14:56:00 -
[387]
Edited by: yarrmarr on 03/12/2009 14:57:21
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: yarrmarr rofl, you seriously thought about this for a long time and came up with the risk of a ninja salvager being too late at the wreck? Gosh, never have I seen a bigger risk than that.
Not really, no. It takes at most 3 seconds to come up with the risk because it's so bloody obvious.
Quote: how about rephrasing; the missionrunner is both at risk from rats AND then a ninja-salvager. Salvager only has the risk that he's too late to salvage a wreck... hmmm... balanced.
No, that would be to (wrongly) confuse running missions with salvaging.
The mission runner is at risk from rats while running the mission û the reward for running missions is mission rewards, time rewards, bounties, LP, loot, standings. The ninja salvager doesn't get those rewards, and don't get the risk eitherà most of the time.
The mission runner is at risk from ninjas while salvaging û the reward for salvaging is salvage. The ninja is at risk from the mission runner while salvaging û the reward is salvage.
Both activities have their respective risks balanced against their respective awards. Just because you can do both at once doesn't mean they're the same activity. By that logic, salvaging is incredibly risky because you might fall for a contract scam and lose all your ISKà
Quote: I do think it's a bit unbalanced though when a 1 week old char can make equal amounts of isk per hour as a lvl4 mission runner while facing less risk.
Not really. Partly because they don't make equal amounts of ISK to begin with, but mainly because they're engaging in a competitive activity, which is more in line with the rest of EVE and therefore should pay proportionally better in relation to the effort involved.
Re 1: tell me what risk the salvager is taking if he salvages another one's wreck other than 'being late'. I really can't come up with one (note: I'm not talking about the looter)
Re 2: having salvageable items is the direct result of the missionrunner's actions. Without them there is no salvage. Correct? Then it is not a matter of 'wrongly confuse running missions with salvaging'.
Re 3: having worked on both sides it's my impression that there's not a lot of difference in payout over the longer term. The sp needed to fulfill both roles decently differs vastly though between these professions. And competition amongst salvagers? Heh, that may be a direct result of that skillpoint issue?
(note: to me both professions in eve are equal, it's just the balancing that's a bit off in my book).
Anyway, back to suicide ganking haulers in smartbomb fitted bs I go, that's where skillpoints really count
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Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.03 15:22:00 -
[388]
Originally by: yarrmarr Re 1: tell me what risk the salvager is taking if he salvages another one's wreck other than 'being late'. I really can't come up with one (note: I'm not talking about the looter)
No, that's pretty much it. Why would there have to be more? It's the same risk as the MR faces (except the latter has to put less effort in)
Quote: Re 2: having salvageable items is the direct result of the missionrunner's actions. Without them there is no salvage. Correct? Then it is not a matter of 'wrongly confuse running missions with salvaging'.
Wrong. It's a direct result of blowing up ships, regardless of where, when and how.
The part you're confusing the two is where you think that salvage is part of the mission rewards. It's not. The (non-existent) risks you face running the mission are irrelevant to the activity of salvaging and the non-risk you run by doing the mission earns you squat in relation to being owed any rights to the salvage. You earn the right to the salvage by activating the salvager on the wrecks. So no, the mission runner does not have to face both the risk of rats and the risk of ninjas when competing for the salvage, because the former is completely unrelated to the activity at hand.
Quote: Re 3: having worked on both sides it's my impression that there's not a lot of difference in payout over the longer term.
Riiiight… somehow I doubt that ninjas will be able to pull in 45M/h – if they do, they've certainly earned it.
Quote: The sp needed to fulfill both roles decently differs vastly though between these professions.
So? Trading is probably the most potentially profitable activity in EVE and the skill requirement for that is tiny. It, too, is a competitive activity, so it should come as no surprise that it's easier on the training queue than the non-competitive mission running.
Quote: And competition amongst salvagers? Heh, that may be a direct result of that skillpoint issue?
Yes. If there was no competition between salvagers, we wouldn't have any ninja salvaging whines, now would we? As to the causality you're trying to imply, I have no idea what you're referring to, but please elaborate. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Traidor Disloyal
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2009.12.03 16:16:00 -
[389]
Originally by: Winters Chill I think the salvagers earn every penny of isk they make.
a) its boring as hell scanning down mission runners.
What's funny is I will wait for hours to kill a war target. But I get bored within 5 minutes of scanning down a mission runner.
To the mission runners *****ing about people coming into their missions and salvaging the wreaks: Get over it. CCP will not change it because it is not ruining the game for a lot of people. It is only a minor inconvenience that touches the Eve lives of a small number of people who know how to post on the forums. If you are really ****ed at this salvage person then add his/her name to your address book. Sooner or later they will join a corp and maybe start running missions. War dec em or train up and salvage their missions. If you are to nice to do that then what the hell are you doing playing Eve?
In my over three years of running missions I have had ONE mission where a cov ops popped in. I think he was looking for a war target.
What would I do if I had someone actually come into my mission and salvage the wreaks? Depends on how I feel that day. If I am feeling good that day, I would do nothing. If he/she looks like they are in a nice corp then I will war dec em. If they have friends in system I will just make a call on vent to my friends in corp and have us a nice deadspace get together and see who has the better remote rep gang of ships. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it. |
Plim
Gallente Celestial Apocalypse death from above..
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Posted - 2009.12.03 16:35:00 -
[390]
To summarise: Some carebears started taking stuff from other carebears. Carebears got annoyed, wanted to shoot carebears, other carebears accused carebears of being carebears for wanting to shoot carebears, then made endless arguments rationalising their carebear activities.
EvE makes so much sense to me these days. ---- Me - Plim Character. You - Non-Plim Character. |
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James Tritanius
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Posted - 2009.12.03 16:50:00 -
[391]
Originally by: Plim To summarise: Some carebears started taking stuff from other carebears. Carebears got annoyed, wanted to shoot carebears, other carebears accused carebears of being carebears for wanting to shoot carebears, then made endless arguments rationalising their carebear activities.
EvE makes so much sense to me these days.
Define carebears.
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Plim
Gallente Celestial Apocalypse death from above..
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Posted - 2009.12.03 16:54:00 -
[392]
Originally by: James Tritanius
Originally by: Plim To summarise: Some carebears started taking stuff from other carebears. Carebears got annoyed, wanted to shoot carebears, other carebears accused carebears of being carebears for wanting to shoot carebears, then made endless arguments rationalising their carebear activities.
EvE makes so much sense to me these days.
Define carebears.
I think there is an implicit definition in there if you look hard enough.
---- Me - Plim Character. You - Non-Plim Character. |
Traidor Disloyal
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2009.12.03 16:55:00 -
[393]
Originally by: James Tritanius Define carebears.
If you're High Sec it's the 0.0 people who are scared of the AFK cloaker. If you are 0.0 then it is the High Sec mission runner. If you are low sec then it's everyone but you. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it. |
Thrasymachus TheSophist
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Posted - 2009.12.03 17:10:00 -
[394]
It would seem that salvaging mechanics also serve to decrease the extraordinarily high payout of L4 missions thereby making them less alluring thereby addressing a recognized issue of CCP, namely that too many ppl sit in highsec running L4 missions.
While I hate having someone salvage my L4, ninja-salvaging can be a fun activity on occasion to change things up.
I don't see the huge deal, really. Given how the rewards for L4s are already off the charts, even with the risk of attracting a ninja salvager, the number of people running L4s remains extraordinarily high. |
Drakarin
Gallente The Abyssmal Spire Independent Faction
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Posted - 2009.12.03 17:13:00 -
[395]
Edited by: Drakarin on 03/12/2009 17:14:16 Loot = salvage that you can, entirely because of game mechanics, loot without having to have a specialized scanner.
Salvage = components that come from the same wreckage, but require a special module to find.
Apparently, because they require a salvager to find, it doesn't belong to you. The logic behind this is non-existent.
Ninja salvaging would simply be more risky if you were open to attack by the wreck's owner after stealing it. I don't understand the opposition to it.
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James Tritanius
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Posted - 2009.12.03 17:18:00 -
[396]
Originally by: Plim
Originally by: James Tritanius
Define carebears.
I think there is an implicit definition in there if you look hard enough.
It seems like you are defining it as "anyone who doesn't play the way I play." Is that correct?
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Plim
Gallente Celestial Apocalypse death from above..
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Posted - 2009.12.03 17:27:00 -
[397]
Originally by: James Tritanius
Originally by: Plim
Originally by: James Tritanius
Define carebears.
I think there is an implicit definition in there if you look hard enough.
It seems like you are defining it as "anyone who doesn't play the way I play." Is that correct?
No, the implied definition was anyone who attempts to play the game with no risk, which tends to be the accepted definition. But now you have me labouring over the obvious.
Such people are those who do missions all day in high sec and little else, or those who salvage wrecks from said people, then get really excitable when it is argued that they should get flagged when they do it.
---- Me - Plim Character. You - Non-Plim Character. |
Rothrin
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Posted - 2009.12.03 18:31:00 -
[398]
The answer is, watch the ninja salvger then shoot the wrecks and play a game of who get bored of it the quickest. Runner still making money of bountys and lp, ninja not making any money.
Oh avoid mission hubs like the plague
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Laciter
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Posted - 2009.12.03 18:37:00 -
[399]
I recently started ninja salvaging to gain money, after being frustrated with level 3 missions. First off, it is a very easy way to make money, far easier than actually running the missions yourself.
I don't think the ninja advocates here are fairly acknowledging the amount of time and isk investment that is required to run level 4 missions efficiently. Go to battleclinic and look at most of the mission fits. The good ones have all t2 modules, and have pretty high SP requirements as well. On top of that, runners have to juggle faction standings to avoid KOS and 4 hour decline timers, which often means jumping from system to system. Missions running is really a big pain in the ass, but right now, it's the best way to make money for most players. Maybe some of the new anomalies in 0.0 will draw some of the high-sp alliance members in their marauders back to nullsec where they belong.
HOWEVER, ninja salvaging really doesn't do that much to hurt level 4 mission runners (arguably even level 3). At worst, we take maybe 30% of your total per mission yield. We don't prevent you from completing your mission and you still get plenty of money from bounties, loot, and LP + reward. There are a few griefers out there who go for lower-level runners, or try to ruin the mission, but they are few and far between. The fact is, you could ignore all the salvage, turn in the mission quicker and move on to the next one, and you would probably be better off anyways.
All this drama over ninja salvagers is really blown out of proportion. I understand that at lower level missions, salvage represents the large majority of your income, and maybe that is why you develop the mentality that you really need it. But at level 4, it just isn't that big a loss to stress out or cry about. We are much like the remoras to sharks, feeding of the scraps of the shark's kill, but doing our best to keep out its way.
One of the problems I think is that there simply weren't enough PVE alternatives to making ISK in the game. And even PvP players rely on some form of "primary production" to be able to PvP. I think making exploration easier and bringing some more pve options to nullsec is a good step in the right direction. But as long as hi-sec mission running is the most lucrative, safe way for a high-SP character to make money, there will be low SP ninja salvagers feeding off the scraps. Why? Because other forms of making ISK at low-SP levels are just horrible.
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E Vile
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Posted - 2009.12.03 18:50:00 -
[400]
Salvaging should be treated as looting. It needs to flag the person stealing.
Not fair they can steal from you right in front of you and you can't even shoot them.
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Xander XacXorien
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Posted - 2009.12.03 18:52:00 -
[401]
It's the old argument of risk vs reward.
There is no risk therefore there should be no reward - end of story.
If there is risk then there should be reward.
If ninja salvaging is to be allowed then the ninja salvager should attract his own spawn of ships in the mission which are specifically dedicated to his/her annialation and the salvager should face a standing hit against the faction he his operating in.
No risk, no reward this is the defacto Eve way of life.
If the intruders warp out the rats should also warp out (in mimick of pursuit - who cares), lol unless aggrod by said missioner - lol.
This also levels the playing field for pirates warping into a mission trying to kill a mission runner.
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E Vile
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Posted - 2009.12.03 18:58:00 -
[402]
Edited by: E Vile on 03/12/2009 18:59:59
Originally by: Xander XacXorien It's the old argument of risk vs reward.
There is no risk therefore there should be no reward - end of story.
If there is risk then there should be reward.
If ninja salvaging is to be allowed then the ninja salvager should attract his own spawn of ships in the mission which are specifically dedicated to his/her annialation and the salvager should face a standing hit against the faction he his operating in.
No risk, no reward this is the defacto Eve way of life.
If the intruders warp out the rats should also warp out (in mimick of pursuit - who cares), lol unless aggrod by said missioner - lol.
This also levels the playing field for pirates warping into a mission trying to kill a mission runner.
Don't have NPC spawn, just flag them and give me the right to defend my own salvage. Having NPC spawn will ruin it for people grouping with a new player they ALLOW to come salvage. Plus wouldn't it be simple just to make it so it flags them just like stealing loot? I have no clue why CCP lets this continue without giving players the ability to defend their kills.
Someone steals my salvage, I shoot them for stealing from me, and get CONCORDed. This just isn't right.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.12.03 19:05:00 -
[403]
Originally by: E Vile Edited by: E Vile on 03/12/2009 18:59:59
Originally by: Xander XacXorien It's the old argument of risk vs reward.
There is no risk therefore there should be no reward - end of story.
If there is risk then there should be reward.
If ninja salvaging is to be allowed then the ninja salvager should attract his own spawn of ships in the mission which are specifically dedicated to his/her annialation and the salvager should face a standing hit against the faction he his operating in.
No risk, no reward this is the defacto Eve way of life.
If the intruders warp out the rats should also warp out (in mimick of pursuit - who cares), lol unless aggrod by said missioner - lol.
This also levels the playing field for pirates warping into a mission trying to kill a mission runner.
Don't have NPC spawn, just flag them and give me the right to defend my own salvage. Having NPC spawn will ruin it for people grouping with a new player they ALLOW to come salvage. Plus wouldn't it be simple just to make it so it flags them just like stealing loot? I have no clue why CCP lets this continue without giving players the ability to defend their kills.
Someone steals my salvage, I shoot them for stealing from me, and get CONCORDed. This just isn't right.
That's because - stop me if I'm going to quickly for you here - the salvage belongs to the person who makes it, not the person who makes the wreck the salvage is made from.
Dont like that law? Mission/rat in 0.0 where it doesn't apply. I hear you get better LP there too.
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Andros Omega
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Posted - 2009.12.03 19:09:00 -
[404]
I think a previous poster brought up a great point.
Lvl4 missioners have spent literally months biulding up their BS skills (or perhaps BC). We've invested a ton of time to allow us to profit from these missions. And their is certainly risk involved, so it's not a carebear activity.
But CCP has allowed a game mechanic that protects ninjas from reprisal. Thats MY beef at least.
I personally think deadspace rooms should be private for missioners OR open them up to PvP between the missioner and the ninja...let them fight it our one-on-one.
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Andros Omega
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Posted - 2009.12.03 19:16:00 -
[405]
OR...I just had another idea....don't allow ninjas in lvl4 missions unless they have a set amount of skill points. That way a ninja still has to earn their right to enter a lvl4 mission to get the salvage. Whereas now, a noob or alt can do it in a matter of a couple days.
No noob should be able to pull in 10mil per hour taking money out of the pockets of missioners who have trained for months to get where they are.
OR...
Don't allow ninjas in deadspace already occupied by players run ACTIVE missions. If a players leaves a mission, thus leaves wrecks, then in this case I agree that salvage (and loot) should be up for grabs.
CCP wants conflict in this game. That is clear. Thats why they won't change this mechanic. It's the one area where I think they have made an error.
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Laciter
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Posted - 2009.12.03 19:22:00 -
[406]
Originally by: Andros Omega I think a previous poster brought up a great point.
Lvl4 missioners have spent literally months biulding up their BS skills (or perhaps BC). We've invested a ton of time to allow us to profit from these missions. And their is certainly risk involved, so it's not a carebear activity.
But CCP has allowed a game mechanic that protects ninjas from reprisal. Thats MY beef at least.
I personally think deadspace rooms should be private for missioners OR open them up to PvP between the missioner and the ninja...let them fight it our one-on-one.
No. Even though it's your mission, it's not your space. Instanced areas would completely kill the uniqueness of eve. PVP in deadspace without attracting concord? Why not just mission in low-sec since you would get essentially the same results?
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James Tritanius
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Posted - 2009.12.03 19:25:00 -
[407]
Originally by: Plim
No, the implied definition was anyone who attempts to play the game with no risk, which tends to be the accepted definition. But now you have me labouring over the obvious.
Fair enough, but I, myself, would change the definition to "low risk" instead of "no risk."
---
And for all the guys who are saying ninja salvaging is a no-risk activity while mission running is... Guess what? Mission runners are not subject to risks neither when they come back in their salvaging ship after the pocket is clear. The grounds are equal.
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Lord Mookiefire
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Posted - 2009.12.03 19:33:00 -
[408]
Questions from a noob who would probably ninja salvage shamelessly until he had the resources to solo level 4s himself:
Were there no level 4s before salvaging was an option? If there were, were they considered worth doing?
Are level 4s so hard to solo that it's impossible to train up salvaging and swap out a single high slot for a tech II Salvager to hit the more valuable targets as you go? With maxed skill and a T2 odds are pretty reasonable you'll salvage on the first cycle.
That said, I think allowing PK in L4 deadspace or moving it to lowsec would be reasonable. Don't expect that to stop opportunists from popping in occasionally to see if you're paying attention though.
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James Tritanius
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Posted - 2009.12.03 19:43:00 -
[409]
Originally by: Lord Mookiefire
That said, I think allowing PK in L4 deadspace or moving it to lowsec would be reasonable.
That will cause LOADS more carebear tears than ninja salvaging... I wonder why mission runners even brought up that idea.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.12.03 19:43:00 -
[410]
Originally by: Andros Omega I think a previous poster brought up a great point.
Lvl4 missioners have spent literally months biulding up their BS skills (or perhaps BC). We've invested a ton of time to allow us to profit from these missions. And their is certainly risk involved, so it's not a carebear activity.
But CCP has allowed a game mechanic that protects ninjas from reprisal. Thats MY beef at least.
I personally think deadspace rooms should be private for missioners OR open them up to PvP between the missioner and the ninja...let them fight it our one-on-one.
Make combat mission deadspaces equivalent to lo-sec. Problem solved.
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Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.12.03 19:47:00 -
[411]
Originally by: E Vile Salvaging should be treated as looting. It needs to flag the person stealing.
Why?
Originally by: Xander XacXorien It's the old argument of risk vs reward.
There is no risk therefore there should be no reward - end of story.
If there is risk then there should be reward.
If ninja salvaging is to be allowed then the ninja salvager should attract his own spawn of ships in the mission which are specifically dedicated to his/her annialation and the salvager should face a standing hit against the faction he his operating in.
I also assume that you're suggesting that a mission runner shouldn't be allowed to salvage unless, say, a whole bunch of neut towers and extra battleships (which won't leave behind any bounty or wrecks) should spawn and try to wtfpwn them?
Originally by: Andros Omega I think a previous poster brought up a great point.
Lvl4 missioners have spent literally months biulding up their BS skills (or perhaps BC). We've invested a ton of time to allow us to profit from these missions.
And guess what? You're being amply rewarded for that investment already, to the point where it's caused severe balancing issues with trying to add other money-making activities to the game. Why on earth should you gain even more for no good reason? If you want that salvage, you need to earn it like everyone else.
The ninjas have spent just as much time and effort as the MR in order to earn that salvage (in most cases more, in fact), so why shouldn't they have it? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Akhmed TDT
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Posted - 2009.12.03 19:53:00 -
[412]
Edited by: Akhmed TDT on 03/12/2009 19:55:53 I honestly don't understand why all the "pirates" salvaging someone elses work are so dead set against PVP. More explosions are good. It's not like they can't take a PVP fit ship in and be outclassed with 1 less gun against a PVE fit ship with full room aggro helping you out.
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small chimp
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Posted - 2009.12.03 20:21:00 -
[413]
I am so angry at carebear. Why do they keep whining?
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Franko Scalzi
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Posted - 2009.12.03 20:21:00 -
[414]
I dont see it as a problem. Then again I knew well enough NOT to mission in major hubs so in all my lvl 3s and then lvl 4 missions for the last 6 months,I have only come across 2 people intruding on my mission.
I think it actually adds some more of that cut throat flair that eve is known for.
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Lord Mookiefire
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Posted - 2009.12.03 20:31:00 -
[415]
Edited by: Lord Mookiefire on 03/12/2009 20:32:45
Originally by: James Tritanius
Originally by: Lord Mookiefire
That said, I think allowing PK in L4 deadspace or moving it to lowsec would be reasonable.
That will cause LOADS more carebear tears than ninja salvaging... I wonder why mission runners even brought up that idea.
Yeah I think I was being subconsciously perverse in supporting that.
If it's so 'easy' you should be seeing fleets of salvagers piling on to every single L4 you run.
To a salvager and I think obviously to CCP given that they removed the flag for salvaging other people's wrecks, laying claim to wrecks in high sec makes about as much sense as laying claim to an asteroid in high sec. Equip a salvaging beam, bring a salvager buddy with you on your missions or consider any wrecks you beat the salvagers to a bonus, which really, they kind of are since they haven't always been in the game.
I just find it kind of ironic that players who want 100% of all loot without anybody interfering with them ever in high sec are the ones talking up this absurd risk/reward ratio. Risk does neat mean months of training up skills that can be applied towards all sorts of things and then killing NPCs in high sec. It means venturing into low sec.
Killing a ship in high sec entitles you to the loot without threat of being killed over it. The wreck is just a side-effect resource that takes some extra skills and ship equipment to harvest.
If you're not equipped to multitask with the advantage of being the first person to know a new wreck has just become available, be prepared for a specialist to occasionally beat you to the punch.
As far as I'm concerned, the following assertions are flawed.
* "I spent months training skills for L4s." It doesn't take months and the skills being trained can and should apply to all sorts of things. There is no "L4 missioning" skill.
* "Those are 'my wrecks.'" It's true that it took you making a kill for them to exist but it's obvious CCP doesn't see it that way or they wouldn't have removed the flag for salvaging wrecks produced from kills other than your own. They did, however prevent players from tractor beaming wrecks of ships they didn't kill. That keeps other players from completely denying you the opportunity to salvage wrecks that you personally killed. If you're not equipped to do so, tough bunnies.
* "I worked hard..." You killed an NPC. Work a little harder and do it with one of your high slots swapped out for a T2 salvager with salvage trained to 5.
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Woodwraith
Prophets Of a Damned Universe
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Posted - 2009.12.03 20:34:00 -
[416]
The salvage is not yours until its in your cargo hold. The salvage is not yours until its in your cargo hold. The salvage is not yours until its in your cargo hold. The salvage is not yours until its in your cargo hold. The salvage is not yours until its in your cargo hold. The salvage is not yours until its in your cargo hold. The salvage is not yours until its in your cargo hold. |
Gevic
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Posted - 2009.12.03 20:36:00 -
[417]
I wholeheartedly agree that salvaging should flag the salvager to the person who made the wreck. I see absolutely no unintended consequence and everyone will be happy with this idea, especially the mission runners.
BTW, does anyone want to run around high sec and do some can flipping? Anyone?
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SalvageIsNotYours
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Posted - 2009.12.03 21:07:00 -
[418]
Sup guys. Just popping in to confirm that Salvage Is Not Yours (until it enters your cargohold)
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Kiri Serrensun
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Posted - 2009.12.03 21:08:00 -
[419]
Originally by: Gevic I wholeheartedly agree that salvaging should flag the salvager to the person who made the wreck. I see absolutely no unintended consequence and everyone will be happy with this idea, especially the mission runners.
I'm hoping this does get implemented by now, just to vary the monotony of these threads. I lost a Scythe to responding to a canflipper a couple of years back, would have been a lot more painful if I first learned the mission with a big old battleship.
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Lord Mookiefire
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Posted - 2009.12.03 21:22:00 -
[420]
Originally by: Gevic I wholeheartedly agree that salvaging should flag the salvager to the person who made the wreck. I see absolutely no unintended consequence and everyone will be happy with this idea, especially the mission runners.
BTW, does anyone want to run around high sec and do some can flipping? Anyone?
Why would this be a multi-page thread if everybody would be happy with that?
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Laciter
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Posted - 2009.12.03 21:25:00 -
[421]
Originally by: Akhmed TDT Edited by: Akhmed TDT on 03/12/2009 19:55:53 I honestly don't understand why all the "pirates" salvaging someone elses work are so dead set against PVP. More explosions are good. It's not like they can't take a PVP fit ship in and be outclassed with 1 less gun against a PVE fit ship with full room aggro helping you out.
We're not claiming that we're pirates. I honestly don't understand why mission runners who operate in hi-sec would think introducing pvp into their mission space would solve anything.
Seriously, the devs have stated ad nauseum that wrecks are not owned by anyone. Just think of wrecks as any other hi-sec resource, like asteroids or belt rats. Nobody owns them. Just because they happen to spawn in "your" mission space, doesn't mean they belong to you. If you want to play that way, I suggest going to 0.0.
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Jesslyn Daggererux
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2009.12.03 22:11:00 -
[422]
10/10. you made it to 15 pages of this? pro. i only read the first page, it only took that long.
Originally by: CCP Fallout
Hola, esta forum es ingles solamente.
This forum is English only. Welcome to my lock. Now please, zip your pants. I don't need a show.
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Alaura Aquila
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.12.03 22:13:00 -
[423]
Originally by: Isakova I can probe out mission space, get in, bm it, warp out, get my salvager, warp back again, start salvaging while the mission owner has full room aggro.
If I see his drones heading back to him, I know he's on his way out. I can loot too, I know he wont shoot me because it's futile, would be quicker to warp out and hope rats give aggro. There's really nothing a person can do to counter it. I think if probing out deadspace was made harder, or riskier, I don't care about the changes to the mechanics, but it the sheer ease of it and the amount of newbies doing it, it's become ridiculous.
They made it a "profession" now and put scanning in the starting tutorial so there will be even more noobs doing it.
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Windjammer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.12.04 00:34:00 -
[424]
Just shoot the wrecks in your mission. Ticks ninjas off and doesn't hurt your bottom line all that much because instead of salvaging you're on to the next mission.
Love the whine of a ninja in the mornin. Almost as much as I like my coffee.
Windjammer
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Quantez ztz
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Posted - 2009.12.08 22:15:00 -
[425]
If anything If someone is not ther under your fleet control or what not then they should be as much of a threat as the npc's.This to me doesnt seem unfair infact it seems completely reasonable as it is your mission and u are ther to do what most missions,that yeild salvage andor loot, are geard toward and that is killin everything that isnt in your fleet or meant to be saved to complete the mission.So seeing as it is so easy for them to pull off , and EVE being the dangerous game that it is,this shouldnt be to difficult for all you whom do like to salvage missions. Then maybe mission salvagers and looters will go do ther own missions and collect ther own salvage.
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SubMoja
The Scope
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Posted - 2010.01.10 02:10:00 -
[426]
Ninja salvaging will lead carebears to being soon sick of their job. And for thoose there aren't many other solutions, due to time, real life, gameplay or whatever, will end up in click "Remove subscriptions".
Most of runners are not in a huge big/active/fun corp, so making money to do their biz is the only thing lasts to them, and ninja salvagers cut at least half of it.
Still CCP have to get it.
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Ai Mei
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Posted - 2010.01.10 03:21:00 -
[427]
WoW this is a major necro.
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Cyprus Black
Caldari Cowboy Diplomacy
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Posted - 2010.01.10 04:04:00 -
[428]
Here's a copy/paste for ya:
Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."
Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.
Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
Per CCP Incognito : Originally by: CCP Incognito Had a chat with some designers this evening. Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private. They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.
(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)
So obviously there's nothing that needs to be nerfed since nothing is wrong. ___________________________________ "In the land of predators, the lion does not fear the jackal." -Dexter |
Tippia
Reikoku IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.01.10 04:09:00 -
[429]
Originally by: SubMoja Ninja salvaging will lead carebears to being soon sick of their job.
No. What will lead carebears to being sick with EVE is treating it as a job. If they can't have fun without getting every last bit of salvage, they probably should unsubscribe, partly because the game obviously isn't for them, but mainly because it will probably be good for them. That level of OCD can't be healthy.
More than that, though… Originally by: Ai Mei WoW this is a major necro.
This. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Kyra Felann
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.01.10 05:23:00 -
[430]
Originally by: Merdaneth Actually, I would love to see agents hand out the same mission to multiple players, and see whoever gets to complete the mission goals first. Competitive PvE!
Perhaps then players would be less likely to think of wrecks obviously owned by Angels or Blood Raiders as 'their loot' and 'their salvage'.
There doesn't need to be a standings reduction (or just a very small) for these missions, but they would sure encourage a bit more interaction in these mission experiences.
Absolutely. Some kind of competition needs to be added to missions--they're the only money-making activity with no competition.
Either the rewards should decrease based on the number of missions that agents hands out per day or they should have a limited number per day, or they should give the same mission to multiple people.
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Junko Togawa
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.01.10 17:16:00 -
[431]
Mmm, necrolicious!
But you see, the competition is there for missions. It's called ninjas. They compete for the salvage. And if they want, the mission specific rewards.
Sorry kids, can't have it both ways. Either nobody can come into the missions and you move 'em to losec, or you leave 'em where they are and nibble at scraps from the meat of the kills. Oh, and FYI...not everyone's at the big hubs. There's plenty of people scattered around other places, running peacefully and ninja-free. Ta-ta!
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2010.01.10 18:03:00 -
[432]
Originally by: Junko Togawa But you see, the competition is there for threads. It's called necross. They compete for the boards. And if they want, the forum specific rewards.
Sorry kids, can't have it both ways. Either nobody can come into the threads and you move on to new ones, or you leave 'em where they are and nibble at scraps from the meat of the kills. Oh, and FYI...not everyone's at the big boards. There's plenty of people scattered around other boards, trolling peacefully and necro-free. Ta-ta!
NO!!!
BAD!!!
Why can't you leave a thread to die a slow death in peace?
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Sokratesz
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Posted - 2010.01.11 09:56:00 -
[433]
Oh look, its this thread still :/
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Amaron Ghant
Caldari Icarus' Wings
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Posted - 2010.01.11 10:44:00 -
[434]
First off, salvage belongs to the person who can get to the wreck first; fact.
That said. Rats in a mission should be able (much like sleepers) to retarget.
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stravros vatta
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Posted - 2010.01.11 11:28:00 -
[435]
i ninja salvage and i enjoy it for 3 reasons 1 its easy 2 its profitable 3 often the mission roller will emo rage in local or convo and be generally funney becuse there so angry
the problem isnt that the lvl4 is easy to scan down infact the mission its self is impossible its the massive battleship the runners use that i can scan down in my sleep
one thing that bugs me is why do wreaks have your name on them if there not owned bit of a plot hole
the best thing to do when a ninja shows up is to blast our own wreaks to rob him of the satisfaction & profit then warp out and get him agroed by the rats dont shoot him i personally have a gank fit scorpion for just such the occasion (its the pefect ship for droping the lone marauder becuse of there wimpy sensor strength)
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Quantez ztz
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Posted - 2010.03.13 20:38:00 -
[436]
Well then they should put the missions in Low Sec ! If the issue is all about stealin and I dont think its so much stealing as it is your mission and u should be able to kill them for bein in your mission but since its all about stealing and everyone crying about how its a harsh enviroment and all that but yet u wont allow the mission runner to have agro rights on someone not invited to ther mission deadspace then put the missions in low sec and make everyone go to low sec to get ther preciouse scraps and then let ther game play get more involved for now they can survive on the little scraps left from the noobs but now they are the scraps left by the real Pirates ! it makes me laugh out loud XD So eve is tough I get it so why all this high sec missions ?? why any high sec missions ? take the noob straight into low sec for a training mission why not but to say that eve is harsh and then not allow reasonable cause and effect to take place doesnt make any sense . So please solve this and put atleast lvl3 and higher in low sec please lol maybe even break them in at 2.5 or something but this is so old dealing with all this and hearing how its legal good its legal but its too easy for the ninja IMO . And EVE is a Harsh enviroment .
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Brechan Skene
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Posted - 2010.03.13 21:41:00 -
[437]
To whom it may concern,
What you are saying is that the current mechanics of salvaging is not correct to "real world" examples Therefore what you are saying is that there is no example of a conflict/ engagement (a mission) occurring consisting of winner of the conflict/ engagement (the player) and a loser of the conflict / engagement (the NPC) and subsequently a third party (the Ninja) turning up later and salvaging the wrecks for profit without permission from either the designated player or NPC of the conflict/engagement
Are you sure of this fact
Brechan
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Reem Fairchild
Minmatar Punic Corp.
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Posted - 2010.03.13 22:21:00 -
[438]
Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 13/03/2010 22:22:20 When rigs and salvage were first introduced, you couldn't salvage a wreck without first emptying it of all loot. That is, unless a wreck was empty to begin with, you couldn't salvage it without being flagged as a thief to the person who owns the loot. Then CCP changed it, in a patch a few months later, to the current system. And despite almost 3 years of mission runner whining, they've kept it this way.
It's not an oversight on CCPs part. This is the way they want it to be. ----- 'In Eve, as in real life, if you are bored it's your own fault.' |
Mr Kidd
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Posted - 2010.03.14 23:41:00 -
[439]
Originally by: Junko Togawa Mmm, necrolicious!
But you see, the competition is there for missions. It's called ninjas. They compete for the salvage. And if they want, the mission specific rewards.
Sorry kids, can't have it both ways. Either nobody can come into the missions and you move 'em to losec, or you leave 'em where they are and nibble at scraps from the meat of the kills. Oh, and FYI...not everyone's at the big hubs. There's plenty of people scattered around other places, running peacefully and ninja-free. Ta-ta!
My bold: Scraps of meat? No way. Prime rib more like it. I ninja. My wallet would disagree with you. My hourly earnings are on par with all but the highest skill l4 mission runners. Seriously! Those of you who still think of ninjaing as a mini-profession or only profitable for noobs are sorely mistaken. Granted, I don't get LP or SP. But the isk is good, it's engaging and there's a bit of pvp thrown into the fray.
I have no expenses like drones, ammo and the occasional repair. Well, I do occasionally repair. But repairing a T2 frigate is a lot cheaper than a BS.
The best part is I can ninja as little or as much as I want. I don't get stuck in that occasional mission that takes longer than 30 minutes to an hour. And yes the tears in local are a bonus as well.
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Boomershoot
Caldari Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2010.03.15 00:01:00 -
[440]
Originally by: Quantez ztz Well then they should put the missions in Low Sec ! If the issue is all about stealin and I dont think its so much stealing as it is your mission and u should be able to kill them for bein in your mission but since its all about stealing and everyone crying about how its a harsh enviroment and all that but yet u wont allow the mission runner to have agro rights on someone not invited to ther mission deadspace then put the missions in low sec and make everyone go to low sec to get ther preciouse scraps and then let ther game play get more involved for now they can survive on the little scraps left from the noobs but now they are the scraps left by the real Pirates ! it makes me laugh out loud XD So eve is tough I get it so why all this high sec missions ?? why any high sec missions ? take the noob straight into low sec for a training mission why not but to say that eve is harsh and then not allow reasonable cause and effect to take place doesnt make any sense . So please solve this and put atleast lvl3 and higher in low sec please lol maybe even break them in at 2.5 or something but this is so old dealing with all this and hearing how its legal good its legal but its too easy for the ninja IMO . And EVE is a Harsh enviroment .
CHEST HIGH WALL OF TEXT OUT OF ****ING NOWHERE REVIVES DEAD THREAD, NEIGHBORS RAGE.
The parrot vortex signature had to go. No hypnotic graphics in signatures please. Shadow. World Domination With Hypnotic Parrots Status: FOILED! |
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Hoedagen
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Posted - 2010.03.15 01:10:00 -
[441]
I run L4's it's takn me a long time to build standing etc, build up isk and skills required for the ships to do L4's so to me, when a ninja comes in, its infuriating, here's someone probably a month in game, making money off of MY training and investment.
A ninja invests a fraction of the time that a L4 runner does. A ninja invests a fraction of the isk that a L4 runner does.
and yet, without any risk or likely come back a ninja gets to take what I'm earning? and then has the gaul to rub it in my face.
If L4's were a primary part of my eve experience, I'd be dropping my account. Thankfully I enjoy other aspects of the game.
I seriously think that the act of ninja salvaging which should be a viable thing in eve, it should be harder to obtain the capability to do it or have some form of cause/response.
Its unfair to any L4 runner to see their wrecks being hoovered up and not able to do a damn thing about it, in most cases the ninja will steal as well, as has been stated they know all too well that by the time a L4 runner BS targets them, they'd be well out of harms way, or have called in a gank squad.
I agree something need be done, and in my eyes that something is that there should be 'effect' of the ninja's actions... everything else in eve has effect, why not this?
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small chimp
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Posted - 2010.03.15 01:20:00 -
[442]
Has the amount of ninjas actually gone down? I haven't seen anyone cryinng in doxi for ages and people report that they don't remember getting ninjas in their missions for ages also????
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Rhaetic
Black Ice Consortium
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Posted - 2010.03.15 01:29:00 -
[443]
The price of salvage has actually come down quite a bit, which may be part of it.
Another is that a lot of people have taken to vindictively popping wrecks when a ninja shows up.
A third is that there is actually competition now that scanning is so easy. I have had three ninjas show up into one of my missions recently, and all three raged at me and tried to train the mission onto me when I popped wrecks. Good times.
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Izen Cracker
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Posted - 2010.03.15 06:34:00 -
[444]
Why doesn't anyone who complains about ninjas just take the obvious solid solution and just salvage as you kill? You can buy plexes with in-game cash, use it to feed another account who would happen to fly a salvaging ship that would tag along in your missions. The alternative is flying a marauder. Result?: probing ninjas flip into a big gaping hole of disappointment. Ninja-ing may be easy to do, but the probing part of it isn't exempt from a bit of tedium.
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Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.03.15 08:48:00 -
[445]
Originally by: Hoedagen I run L4's it's takn me a long time to build standing etc, build up isk and skills required for the ships to do L4's so to me, when a ninja comes in, its infuriating, here's someone probably a month in game, making money off of MY training and investment.
A ninja invests a fraction of the time that a L4 runner does. A ninja invests a fraction of the isk that a L4 runner does.
and yet, without any risk or likely come back a ninja gets to take what I'm earning? and then has the gaul to rub it in my face.
If L4's were a primary part of my eve experience, I'd be dropping my account. Thankfully I enjoy other aspects of the game.
I seriously think that the act of ninja salvaging which should be a viable thing in eve, it should be harder to obtain the capability to do it or have some form of cause/response.
Its unfair to any L4 runner to see their wrecks being hoovered up and not able to do a damn thing about it, in most cases the ninja will steal as well, as has been stated they know all too well that by the time a L4 runner BS targets them, they'd be well out of harms way, or have called in a gank squad.
I agree something need be done, and in my eyes that something is that there should be 'effect' of the ninja's actions... everything else in eve has effect, why not this?
There is something that can be done. Move to a new agent. I've run hundreds of missions with good agents and never been Ninjad, not once (I bet I will be now) If you are being ninjad its because you fail to see the simple solution. Most problems in EVE have a solution, often many. Some people just moan about how unfair life is, some people work out how to change that. Guess which are the more successful.
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Brianna Wyvernsbane
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.03.15 08:49:00 -
[446]
Originally by: Cyprus Black Here's a copy/paste for ya:
Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."
Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.
Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
Per CCP Incognito : Originally by: CCP Incognito Had a chat with some designers this evening. Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private. They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.
(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)
So obviously there's nothing that needs to be nerfed since nothing is wrong.
not the first person that posted this, but this gets my vote for best post on this thread.
it just makes me wonder WHY you think the wreck is YOURS when its been stated REPEATEDLY that it is NOT yours. i've been on both ends. as both a ninja and as a runner. i quite frankly dont see a problem.
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Mjiryen Rose
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.03.16 00:53:00 -
[447]
Mmmm, so the zombie apocalypse is real? (Do you see what I did there?)
I enjoy ninja-salvagers especially because of the fun dialogues they have with their "victims" in local. I remember some guy would respond to complaints by saying he was cleaning up "space trash," and took this whole environmentalist stance where he started threatening to fine the people he was salvaging from for "littering."
the tears were many and they were also delicious.
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Renan Ruivo
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Posted - 2010.03.21 01:52:00 -
[448]
Nothing against people warping in and salvaging my wrecks. Everything against 9 to 10 people warping in while i'm tanking 4 battleships and tractoring my wrecks, salvaging them and actually stealing my loot also. To me loot stealing should be dealt with by CONCORD, and not only by flagging them red to me.
Now.. i don't actually care much for that idea either, but to the fact that it's extremally easy to pull off.. any noob can scan deadspace.
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Miati Leekon
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Posted - 2010.03.21 02:11:00 -
[449]
Edited by: Miati Leekon on 21/03/2010 02:13:06
Originally by: Tai Khuc Loot = Belongs to the person who's name is on the wreck i.e. the owner.
Salvage = Belongs to anyone thus no criminal flagging etc.
Working as intended and there is nothing wrong with it.
Not the point. CCP changes direction with the setting of the sun.......... if the sun has been up too long in those northern latitudes......... even the sun works as intended but then eventually sets.
Besides the reality is CCP had dumped the backstory so "missions" no longer serve any purpose. That is reality. You want PVE back, then fight for it.
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Kerfira
Audaces Fortuna Iuvat
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Posted - 2010.03.21 10:03:00 -
[450]
Originally by: Renan Ruivo Nothing against people warping in and salvaging my wrecks. Everything against 9 to 10 people warping in while i'm tanking 4 battleships and tractoring my wrecks, salvaging them and actually stealing my loot also. To me loot stealing should be dealt with by CONCORD, and not only by flagging them red to me.
You're forgetting that EVE is NOT an instanced WoW-in-space game! No, it is a game where the designers actually want players to INTERACT, and rather in an unfriendly fashion than a friendly one. This is the base foundation of the game!
The only things that BELONGS to you is the stuff you have in your hangar (and that can still be impounded if in a conquerable station)! Stuff in your cargo-hold is only yours if you manage to avoid getting blown up, and stuff floating in space doesn't belong to anyone until someone picks it up!
Loot in wrecks with your name on is only 'yours' if you actually manage to get it and hold on to it! Otherwise it belongs to the other guy! EVE makes a concession and allows you to try to claim back what you thought was 'yours' (shoot the taker), but if you're too scared to do that, tough luck!
The only protection offered by the game is that if someone shoots at you when in high-sec, CONCORD blows them up! That's IT!
Other than that, it's up to yourself... Possession is ovnership in EVE! If you can't hack that, you simply have to admit you're not tough enough for this game!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.03.21 10:53:00 -
[451]
Can you produce so much as a hint that CCP are dissatisfied or dismayed with the amount of ninja salvaging going on? It really does seem to me that ninja salvagers exactly describe their stated goal of salvaging as a mini-profession. So far as I can tell, your main argument is reduces down to no more than "this is ****ing some (but not all) mission runners off". Sorry buddy, that's just not enough.
You keep describing ninja salvaging as a "loophole", a "problem" and so forth. As if salvage was originally really supposed to be the property of the mission runner, and the free-for-all nature of salvaging was an oversight, a careless bit of programming, a game design whoopsie. But, and this is an amply recorded historical fact, it never was.
Let me restate this, because it is the core flaw in all your arguments:
CCP explicitly say that salvage was not intended to increase mission running rewards
I dont know how to make this any plainer. The salvage that you are complaining about losing isn't yours, was never yours, wasn't introduced to be yours, has never been intended to be yours. At no point did CCP have the least intention of ever - regardless of circumstance - making it yours. The "loophole" you are complaining about is working as intended. IT'S WHAT CCP HAD IN MIND FROM THE BEGINNING. IT'S WHAT THEY WANTED TO HAPPEN. THEY'RE NOT GOING TO CHANGE IT BECAUSE IT'S WHAT THEY WANT.
I typed that in block capitals because it seems like that might work in conveying this simple, basic concept to you.
If it doesn't work, well, whatever, because CCP aint gonna change it regardless of how impervious you are.
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Zartrader
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Posted - 2010.03.21 11:01:00 -
[452]
If some people spent less time moaning about ninja looters and more time thinking about the very easy ways to avoid them they would not get so stressed.
If player's insist on missioning in fail systems like Motsu then they have to pay the price of that decision.
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small chimp
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Posted - 2010.03.21 11:25:00 -
[453]
??? There arent much ninja salvagers in dodixie anymore? BTW: everyone who whines about ninja salvagers should be banned or at least their isk should be removed from them because they want to destroy the game just like star wars was destroyed by bear!?
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2010.03.21 11:44:00 -
[454]
Originally by: Isakova
Ninja salvaging in mission deadspace is pretty much consequence free, not in an asteroid belt.
salvaging wrecks is always consequence free, because they're FFA. Everywhere. Thats fine.
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Kiri Serrensun
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Posted - 2010.03.21 11:53:00 -
[455]
Edited by: Kiri Serrensun on 21/03/2010 11:53:09
Originally by: small chimp Has the amount of ninjas actually gone down? I haven't seen anyone cryinng in doxi for ages and people report that they don't remember getting ninjas in their missions for ages also????
I think it's the other way round--these threads inspire people to take up ninja salvaging. I know I kind of want to go down to Dodixie with a Heron now....
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Spurty
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2010.03.21 12:26:00 -
[456]
I know this is flogging a dead horse BUT, what if CCP allowed you to target the 'salvageable material', so you can destroy that, but not the wreck?
I think it would be pretty funny to bait using this as a strategy.
Originally by: Hurley I WAS NOT QUITTING SoT AND WAS NOT THINKING ABOUT JOINING IT. PL/SoT MADE A MISTAKE AND ARE NOT MAN ENOUGH TO ADMIT IT OR FIX IT.
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