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TraininVain
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Posted - 2009.05.12 21:42:00 -
[1]
Caracal, Vexor and Arbitrator are the best newbie pve cruisers imo.
Since you mention missile SP but no drone SP I'm gonna say Caracal.
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TraininVain
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Posted - 2009.05.12 21:50:00 -
[2]
Edited by: TraininVain on 12/05/2009 21:51:42
Both work very well tbh. Both have nice BC options and BS options in the long term.
I'd probably suggest missiles just on the basis of how awesome the Drake (missile spewing battlecruiser) is but with focussed training either could be good options. I keep hearing how great the Dominix (drone battleship) is although I like my Raven (missile battleship).
If his connection is ever prone to disconnecting on it's own definitely missiles but otherwise it's a fairly close run thing.
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TraininVain
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Posted - 2009.05.12 22:11:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Suicide Mike
Well, crud. He doesn't want to use missles, he wants to be different(I fly a Drake).
Is the Thorax a "better" ship than the Vexor? I realize that the Vexor has a larger bay(drone and cargo), but in the short term being only able to handle 3-4 drones(due to skills)...would the extra turret on the Thorax be a better way to go?
I'd say no.
Turrets are problematic for missions especially at lower levels. The problem basically is you get a tonne of frigates which makes turrets a bit inefficient imo.
Turrets miss small stuff close in and have limited range. L1 and L2 missions have lots of small stuff that likes to orbit close in.
Drones OTOH can put damage on stuff from 0 out to whatever your drone control range is regardless of which way you're flying etc. etc. They also mean you can carry anti-frigate and anti-cruiser weapons on the same ship without refitting.
Rax has a bonus to medium turrets and MWD usage. Medium turrets will have "missing small stuff close in" issues. MWDs you can't use in missions anyway so in a lot of ways that's two potentially wasted bonuses from Gallente Cruiser skill.
Vex OTOH has the same turret bonus but also has a drone bonus. At worst you're wasting the turret bonus.
Get him to train drone skills up ASAP and fly a Vex tbh.
I think I had something like this when I got my first Vex for L2s: Frigate guns, remote armor rep for drones or Drone link augmentor // afterburner, cap recharger, cap recharger // medium armor rep, membrane, membrane (change to suit damage type for mission), capacitor power relay
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TraininVain
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Posted - 2009.05.12 22:49:00 -
[4]
Thing with destroyers is you may as well just hop in a cruiser. The gap in ISK and skills is tiny. As soon as you've put any effort at all into being in a dessie you could've been in a cruiser.
Also medium blasters have tracking issues with small fast stuff orbiting close.
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TraininVain
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Posted - 2009.05.13 13:55:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Gartel Reiman
Originally by: TraininVain
Thing with destroyers is you may as well just hop in a cruiser. The gap in ISK and skills is tiny. As soon as you've put any effort at all into being in a dessie you could've been in a cruiser.
Also medium blasters have tracking issues with small fast stuff orbiting close.
I was going to point out the error of your first paragraph, but luckily you did it yourself in the following one. 
Cruisers use medium weapons, which have approximately ten times worse tracking than their equivalent small weapons. Medium weapons were designed to hit cruisers and up, and in fact are meant to have trouble hitting frigates. With relatively low skills (both in terms of Motion Prediction and possibly in terms of manual piloting to reduce transversal) this will be compounded.
Destroyers get very nice bonuses to small turrets, always range and often damage, tracking or even more range, so they will be able to hit frigates very well from far away. In fact they can use small weapons at similar ranges to the medium weapons; but with the better tracking they'll have no problems hitting the smaller ships. You could drop down to small guns on a turret cruiser, but then you're doing less damage than a destroyer. (The tank will be much much better of course, which could be an issue if you're not able to keep your destroyer safe through range).
Destroyers are massively under-rated in general, they're excellent platforms for anti-frigate offense, so for missions where you're up against frigates they're unrivalled.
If you'd read all of what I'd wrote you'd have noticed that the the three cruisers I listed as good newbie pve boats all make efficient, bonused use of anti-frigate weapons. None of them are primarily turret boats.
The Caracal has Assault Missile Launchers. These fire frigate sized missiles from launchers with bigger magazines. They are ridiculously efficient and I believe bonused.
The other two ships are drone boats which don't even have to choose between anti-frig and anti-cruiser weaponry because they can carry both, at once and switch at will.
I'm not saying that a dessie can't be very efficient, I'm just saying that the right cruiser can be just as efficient, more durable and be preparing you training-wise for L3s.
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TraininVain
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Posted - 2009.05.13 18:44:00 -
[6]
How long does it take to go from L1 missions to L2? It's all of a couple of days as far as I recall.
It's not overly expensive because you then use the same ship for L2s as well. Lets also not forget that it's 1m or so for a destroyer and a whopping 4m or so for a cruiser. That really isn't a huge step.
To my mind destroyers are an inefficient use of ISKs and training time because they're only really good for L1s which you can do very happily in a frigate.
If you skill them up a bit then yeah you can do L2s. However you could have spent the same time skilling up a cruiser and be plug and play with a BC.
It's not like the Caracal, Vexor or Arbie are particularly unforgiving of low skills either. They're not gun-boats. The weapons you're fitting to them at this point are easy to fit. The weapons we're talking about let you stay well out of harms way too so it's not a particularly stern test of your tanking ability.
Destroyers are a bit of a detour imo despite you trying very hard to justify liking them. I know they've got the cool factor of loads of guns but unless you really want to guns are not the way to go for PvE
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TraininVain
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Posted - 2009.05.15 01:43:00 -
[7]
Quote:
2) My guess is that all the people who jumped from frigates to cruisers never spent any time in destroyers and thus have no idea what they are talking about. They certainly have no idea what they are talking about ... I'm just assuming that that is why. To say that you can just run Level I's in a Frigate ignores the fact that destroyers are vastly more effective than frigates, especially when salvaging. Look at "When Worlds Collide" - that mission is so much faster to run and salvage with destroyers than frigates it is no comparison. Sure ... you can run all your Level I missions in a Frigate - but why would you? Unless you are just in it for the challenge - there is no reason.
Laffo. Nope. I got a Cormorant on my first character and it was the best thing evar because it looks like the batmobile. It instapopped L1 frigates. So did my Caracal however. And my incursus on my second character. It's not like L1's are challenging enough to require a specialised ship tbh. L2s are still lots of frigs to shoot. If you think running them is slow in a cruiser you're using the wrong cruiser.
Destroyers aren't that much better than the best gun frigs btw. It's 3.something vs 5 guns (when you factor in the ROF penalty). You also only get a damage bonus on one of them and then it's only significant if you train the skill up a few levels and then you're wasting training time.
Note also that I didn't say destroyers were bad for L1s at any point. It's just frigs aren't bad either and the cruisers I mentioned are better.
The OP asked what the optimum cruiser for missions was. I recommended the optimum cruisers for missions. None of em are gun boats at this stage because of the target mix
Since he asked about missions I recommended ships that would scale up skillwise into good L3 ships. They aren't gunboats either. I have tried all three approaches and I know what kind of carebearing makes my wallet go up quickest 
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TraininVain
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Posted - 2009.05.15 03:18:00 -
[8]
Edited by: TraininVain on 15/05/2009 03:23:03
Edited by: TraininVain on 15/05/2009 03:22:17
Fitting 5 guns is ... the same damage as a skilled up frigate.
L1 stuff pops so quickly the bulk of the time is spent locking up new targets tbh.
AMLs use standard missile skill. Drones are their own skill tree which you'll want to skill up whatever you plan to end up in. None of these require much in the way of fitting skills since they're light on grid.
As I said earlier, the cruiser/weapon combos we're talking about very forgiving.
Standard EVE rule of "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose" applies, but when doesn't it?
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