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Parallax Error
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Posted - 2004.09.06 23:57:00 -
[1]
The conundrum is this: What use are assault frigates?
I was going to write up a great big long post in this, but after having a think the main points of this can be summed up pretty succinctly.
After a great deal of thought i'm struggling to see what the point of assault frigates actually is. Due to their mass they are very slow for frigates, and when speed boosting modules are applied they aren't that much more spritely than cruisers. They seem to be setup as some sort of mobile escort/firepower platform, a gunship if you will.
The problem is, however, if you want a fast frigate that can hot hard and tackle, interceptors are quite rightly far superior. If you use the assault ship as a damage platform and a tank, then they are totally overshadowed by cruisers. Due to current market prices, there is no way they can be considered a step between a frigate and a cruiser.
An assault frigate (taking into account speed, resistances, sig radius) isn't going to be able to tank better than a cruiser. If you introduce MWD's and oversized AB's into the equation, they lose any speed advantage they have. All they really have is an agility advantage over a cruiser platform. Problem is they don't do more damage or damage in a significant manner to warrant their use over a cruiser.
What was the design brief of Assault frigates? I'm sorry to say it but they seem to have been rushed out in the wake of the massibe Shiva effort, in order to pacify those baying for new content.
How would assault frigates be made more viable? the main way I can think of is by giving them cruiser level firepower, at the expense of their tanking ability but with the inherent mobility (read warp in speeds, agility related, not mass and speed). I would think something like an across the board -90% to weapon fitting for all assault frigates. Basically give them the ability to mount cruiser weapons, they would then hit as hard as a cruiser making them viable mobile gunships.
Just a note, despite my views on some assault frigates being worse than others, I think the class as a whole isn't upto scratch and needs a rethink.
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Parallax Error
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Posted - 2004.09.06 23:57:00 -
[2]
The conundrum is this: What use are assault frigates?
I was going to write up a great big long post in this, but after having a think the main points of this can be summed up pretty succinctly.
After a great deal of thought i'm struggling to see what the point of assault frigates actually is. Due to their mass they are very slow for frigates, and when speed boosting modules are applied they aren't that much more spritely than cruisers. They seem to be setup as some sort of mobile escort/firepower platform, a gunship if you will.
The problem is, however, if you want a fast frigate that can hot hard and tackle, interceptors are quite rightly far superior. If you use the assault ship as a damage platform and a tank, then they are totally overshadowed by cruisers. Due to current market prices, there is no way they can be considered a step between a frigate and a cruiser.
An assault frigate (taking into account speed, resistances, sig radius) isn't going to be able to tank better than a cruiser. If you introduce MWD's and oversized AB's into the equation, they lose any speed advantage they have. All they really have is an agility advantage over a cruiser platform. Problem is they don't do more damage or damage in a significant manner to warrant their use over a cruiser.
What was the design brief of Assault frigates? I'm sorry to say it but they seem to have been rushed out in the wake of the massibe Shiva effort, in order to pacify those baying for new content.
How would assault frigates be made more viable? the main way I can think of is by giving them cruiser level firepower, at the expense of their tanking ability but with the inherent mobility (read warp in speeds, agility related, not mass and speed). I would think something like an across the board -90% to weapon fitting for all assault frigates. Basically give them the ability to mount cruiser weapons, they would then hit as hard as a cruiser making them viable mobile gunships.
Just a note, despite my views on some assault frigates being worse than others, I think the class as a whole isn't upto scratch and needs a rethink.
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Hakera
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Posted - 2004.09.06 23:58:00 -
[3]
lol - i see I am not the only one perplexed by assault frigs!  
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Hakera
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Posted - 2004.09.06 23:58:00 -
[4]
lol - i see I am not the only one perplexed by assault frigs!
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Del Todesengel
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Posted - 2004.09.07 00:08:00 -
[5]
i bought and tested out a Vengeance Assualt Frigate...
tryed on : 1*50k + 3*7.5k NPC, i did kill them but was really challenging mostly bc of lack of speed (so i always get hit)
My interceptor could had beat this spawn without worrying about his shield.
I didnt tryed in PvP yet... but as for PvE, ceptor are better imo
Webmaster for Dragon's Rage and his affiliation, visit us at www.dragon-rage.net |
Del Todesengel
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Posted - 2004.09.07 00:08:00 -
[6]
i bought and tested out a Vengeance Assualt Frigate...
tryed on : 1*50k + 3*7.5k NPC, i did kill them but was really challenging mostly bc of lack of speed (so i always get hit)
My interceptor could had beat this spawn without worrying about his shield.
I didnt tryed in PvP yet... but as for PvE, ceptor are better imo
Webmaster for Dragon's Rage and his affiliation, visit us at www.dragon-rage.net |
Meridius
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Posted - 2004.09.07 00:35:00 -
[7]
I'm sick of saying it so i'll stick to putting it simply.
Cruiser > Assault Frigate
They need to be put back on the drawing board.
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Meridius
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Posted - 2004.09.07 00:35:00 -
[8]
I'm sick of saying it so i'll stick to putting it simply.
Cruiser > Assault Frigate
They need to be put back on the drawing board.
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Gaiam
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Posted - 2004.09.07 00:54:00 -
[9]
now why in the world should assault frigates be better than cruisers? can you be any more selfish? whatever gave you that idea?
these are specialized ships and used correctly will justify their build costs.
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Gaiam
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Posted - 2004.09.07 00:54:00 -
[10]
now why in the world should assault frigates be better than cruisers? can you be any more selfish? whatever gave you that idea?
these are specialized ships and used correctly will justify their build costs.
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Rhagnor
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Posted - 2004.09.07 01:03:00 -
[11]
Or MWD's, oversized AB'ers and Missiles need to go back to the drawing board for a redesign. The current MWD for teh win situation mucks up any chance for a frigate or cruiser that is slow. Why fit an MWD.. well to avoid the missiles... So in the end, the missile thing seems to be why newer but slower ship don't stand a chance really I think
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Rhagnor
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Posted - 2004.09.07 01:03:00 -
[12]
Or MWD's, oversized AB'ers and Missiles need to go back to the drawing board for a redesign. The current MWD for teh win situation mucks up any chance for a frigate or cruiser that is slow. Why fit an MWD.. well to avoid the missiles... So in the end, the missile thing seems to be why newer but slower ship don't stand a chance really I think
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Rivek
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Posted - 2004.09.07 01:19:00 -
[13]
Cruise missiles/torps >> assault frigates
----------------------------------------------
BS Weapon Comparison
TunDraGon.com |
Rivek
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Posted - 2004.09.07 01:19:00 -
[14]
Cruise missiles/torps >> assault frigates
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BS Weapon Comparison
TunDraGon.com |
Ranger 1
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Posted - 2004.09.07 01:40:00 -
[15]
I'd say that pretty much sum's things up. If missiles were fixed as intended.... doing less damage to smaller vessels.... then the assault frigate would have a much better defined role in the game. It would remove the main reason why they currently have to be fast, that being to evade missiles. If missiles were doing less damage to them to begin with, thier resistances would come into play. And it might open up the door to discovering effective tactics against other, swifter vessels.
This of course goes hand in hand with fixing MWD's as well, but hey...
Kill the enemy, and break their toys. |
Ranger 1
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Posted - 2004.09.07 01:40:00 -
[16]
I'd say that pretty much sum's things up. If missiles were fixed as intended.... doing less damage to smaller vessels.... then the assault frigate would have a much better defined role in the game. It would remove the main reason why they currently have to be fast, that being to evade missiles. If missiles were doing less damage to them to begin with, thier resistances would come into play. And it might open up the door to discovering effective tactics against other, swifter vessels.
This of course goes hand in hand with fixing MWD's as well, but hey...
Kill the enemy, and break their toys. |
Grut
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Posted - 2004.09.07 01:53:00 -
[17]
The first thing I thought when I looked at the stats for assaults was Hey, that looks very similar to my maller only crapper.
They seem like a budget versions of a cruiser, only they cost three times asmuch and cant be insured. Maybe they'll be usefull come shiva when pos start churning out t2 components and their price drops to a couple of mill, until then their just expensive curiosities.
Mostly harmless |
Grut
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Posted - 2004.09.07 01:53:00 -
[18]
The first thing I thought when I looked at the stats for assaults was Hey, that looks very similar to my maller only crapper.
They seem like a budget versions of a cruiser, only they cost three times asmuch and cant be insured. Maybe they'll be usefull come shiva when pos start churning out t2 components and their price drops to a couple of mill, until then their just expensive curiosities.
Mostly harmless |
snutt
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Posted - 2004.09.07 02:02:00 -
[19]
Imo, there isn't much wrong with em, other than that they might be a tad bit to sluggish and have to low range to "snipe".
Mess with the best, die like the rest 
Real men structure tank |
snutt
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Posted - 2004.09.07 02:02:00 -
[20]
Imo, there isn't much wrong with em, other than that they might be a tad bit to sluggish and have to low range to "snipe".
Mess with the best, die like the rest
Real men structure tank |
Meridius
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Posted - 2004.09.07 02:45:00 -
[21]
Heavy pulses on a maller can rip apart a webbed interceptor. An assault frigate has a larger signature radius + it's a whole lot slower. How do you think it would do?
The problem is not confined to missles.
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Meridius
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Posted - 2004.09.07 02:45:00 -
[22]
Heavy pulses on a maller can rip apart a webbed interceptor. An assault frigate has a larger signature radius + it's a whole lot slower. How do you think it would do?
The problem is not confined to missles.
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Ranger 1
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Posted - 2004.09.07 03:20:00 -
[23]
A good point, but unless the Assault pilot ingnores his advantage of longer range he should never be in webber range to begin with. 
Kill the enemy, and break their toys. |
Ranger 1
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Posted - 2004.09.07 03:20:00 -
[24]
A good point, but unless the Assault pilot ingnores his advantage of longer range he should never be in webber range to begin with.
Kill the enemy, and break their toys. |
ActiveX
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Posted - 2004.09.07 03:24:00 -
[25]
I think Assault Frigs' main problem is that they don't...well assault anything.
I imagined the elite Punisher as a fearsome gunship that could make cruisers flinch...not an extra gun and a super tank.
Screw defenses, make these things able to mount 6 guns with all bonuses to make those 6 guns more fun. Keep that tanking stuff for some drone carrier ship.
____________
Sex / Rank 9 / SP: 1280 of 2304000 
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ActiveX
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Posted - 2004.09.07 03:24:00 -
[26]
I think Assault Frigs' main problem is that they don't...well assault anything.
I imagined the elite Punisher as a fearsome gunship that could make cruisers flinch...not an extra gun and a super tank.
Screw defenses, make these things able to mount 6 guns with all bonuses to make those 6 guns more fun. Keep that tanking stuff for some drone carrier ship.
____________
Sex / Rank 9 / SP: 1280 of 2304000
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Harry Voyager
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Posted - 2004.09.07 04:02:00 -
[27]
These ships are a Catch-22 situation. If missiles are nerfed, then they will be able to decimate even battleships, yet without the missile nerf, they are little more than expensive targets in general engagements.
Harry Voyager
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Harry Voyager
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Posted - 2004.09.07 04:02:00 -
[28]
These ships are a Catch-22 situation. If missiles are nerfed, then they will be able to decimate even battleships, yet without the missile nerf, they are little more than expensive targets in general engagements.
Harry Voyager
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Mongooser
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Posted - 2004.09.07 04:48:00 -
[29]
I "was" (note the past tence) training for assult frigs almost as soon as word of them hit the belts. Mostly due to my unholy love for my 10mn punisher and the fact that the vengence looks like death on a stick. Now however i have switched back to hitting evasive lvl5. They are gimped, sure if you are a hard core role player and can have super eficent teamwork then there might be a use for these things but for the majority of us they will simply not pay off.
P.S. I'm still going to buy one, but only to look cool in and impress the chicks :P
Mongooser 
Must play EVE while drunk more......
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Mongooser
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Posted - 2004.09.07 04:48:00 -
[30]
I "was" (note the past tence) training for assult frigs almost as soon as word of them hit the belts. Mostly due to my unholy love for my 10mn punisher and the fact that the vengence looks like death on a stick. Now however i have switched back to hitting evasive lvl5. They are gimped, sure if you are a hard core role player and can have super eficent teamwork then there might be a use for these things but for the majority of us they will simply not pay off.
P.S. I'm still going to buy one, but only to look cool in and impress the chicks :P
Mongooser
Must play EVE while drunk more......
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Negotiator
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Posted - 2004.09.07 05:25:00 -
[31]
Gaiam, fyi - you dont have any valid arguments...just thought i'd mention that.
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Negotiator
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Posted - 2004.09.07 05:25:00 -
[32]
Gaiam, fyi - you dont have any valid arguments...just thought i'd mention that.
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Gaius Kador
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Posted - 2004.09.07 05:54:00 -
[33]
If the Assault frig had cost 2,5mill I'd not mind its uselessness as much.
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Gaius Kador
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Posted - 2004.09.07 05:54:00 -
[34]
If the Assault frig had cost 2,5mill I'd not mind its uselessness as much.
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agentsmitty
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Posted - 2004.09.07 05:55:00 -
[35]
 Quote:
Gaiam, fyi - you dont have any valid arguments...just thought i'd mention that.
ouch again!
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agentsmitty
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Posted - 2004.09.07 05:55:00 -
[36]
Quote:
Gaiam, fyi - you dont have any valid arguments...just thought i'd mention that.
ouch again!
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Directive
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Posted - 2004.09.07 06:03:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
Gaiam, if a dev took a dump in your mouth you'd smile and ask for seconds. Useless all-praising loyalists like you are what keeps broken things broken.
You don't know when to stop, do you?
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Directive
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Posted - 2004.09.07 06:03:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
Gaiam, if a dev took a dump in your mouth you'd smile and ask for seconds. Useless all-praising loyalists like you are what keeps broken things broken.
You don't know when to stop, do you?
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Nilit
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Posted - 2004.09.07 06:16:00 -
[39]
Quote:
now why in the world should assault frigates be better than cruisers? can you be any more selfish? whatever gave you that idea?
Because they cost like 10x more ?
Arguing with EVE customer support is like chatting up stewardess on the plane - you know you're not gonna get any , but it's still hella fun trying |
Nilit
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Posted - 2004.09.07 06:16:00 -
[40]
Quote:
now why in the world should assault frigates be better than cruisers? can you be any more selfish? whatever gave you that idea?
Because they cost like 10x more ?
Arguing with EVE customer support is like chatting up stewardess on the plane - you know you're not gonna get any , but it's still hella fun trying |
Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2004.09.07 06:20:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Directive
You don't know when to stop, do you?
Wasn't Finfleet supposed to come after us or something? I guess you don't know when to start.
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2004.09.07 06:20:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Directive
You don't know when to stop, do you?
Wasn't Finfleet supposed to come after us or something? I guess you don't know when to start.
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Directive
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Posted - 2004.09.07 06:26:00 -
[43]
I'm just telling you to stop with the personal insults, Istvaan, they have no place on forums. I still have the logs, FYI, so let's just leave it.
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Directive
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Posted - 2004.09.07 06:26:00 -
[44]
I'm just telling you to stop with the personal insults, Istvaan, they have no place on forums. I still have the logs, FYI, so let's just leave it.
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Meridius
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Posted - 2004.09.07 06:39:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Gaiam
Originally by: Negotiator
Gaiam, fyi - you dont have any valid arguments...just thought i'd mention that.
first thing i asked panzy is why assaults should be better than cruisers. then the losers chimed in.
so for your information ****head i DID have a valid arguement before istvaan came on with his usual charm, the rest of you people supporting him or trying to insult me are no higher class than he is.
....just thought i'd mention that.
Gaiam.
Answer this.
If a cruiser can do everything an assault frigate can do but BETTER and costs LESS and can be FULLY insured why in gods name would you use an assault frigate?
[/civil]
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Meridius
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Posted - 2004.09.07 06:39:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Gaiam
Originally by: Negotiator
Gaiam, fyi - you dont have any valid arguments...just thought i'd mention that.
first thing i asked panzy is why assaults should be better than cruisers. then the losers chimed in.
so for your information ****head i DID have a valid arguement before istvaan came on with his usual charm, the rest of you people supporting him or trying to insult me are no higher class than he is.
....just thought i'd mention that.
Gaiam.
Answer this.
If a cruiser can do everything an assault frigate can do but BETTER and costs LESS and can be FULLY insured why in gods name would you use an assault frigate?
[/civil]
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Gaiam
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Posted - 2004.09.07 07:21:00 -
[47]
for style points. a tristan is as good as a taranis in most fields but speed and lock times, and better than an ares in all fields but speed and lock times, but people still use taranis and ares. 200k for tristan vs 8-10m for interceptors, why? ares doesnt hit any harder than a tristan, or have the versatility, but still people pay 9m for them. people use them because they can.
i do agree t2 is expensive, but with elite cruisers taking close to 1000 tech 2 build components, the drop rate from missions has to increase. these ships wont cost 30-60m for long.
assaults are specialized ships. they wont be as versatile as a cruiser no, but when you have found a good setup and know what your role is in a battle you will use one because you can.
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Gaiam
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Posted - 2004.09.07 07:21:00 -
[48]
for style points. a tristan is as good as a taranis in most fields but speed and lock times, and better than an ares in all fields but speed and lock times, but people still use taranis and ares. 200k for tristan vs 8-10m for interceptors, why? ares doesnt hit any harder than a tristan, or have the versatility, but still people pay 9m for them. people use them because they can.
i do agree t2 is expensive, but with elite cruisers taking close to 1000 tech 2 build components, the drop rate from missions has to increase. these ships wont cost 30-60m for long.
assaults are specialized ships. they wont be as versatile as a cruiser no, but when you have found a good setup and know what your role is in a battle you will use one because you can.
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Orestes
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Posted - 2004.09.07 08:18:00 -
[49]
Keep the replies friendly, or don't keep em at all
Join the IC! |
Orestes
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Posted - 2004.09.07 08:18:00 -
[50]
Keep the replies friendly, or don't keep em at all
Join the IC! |
Lorth
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Posted - 2004.09.07 08:45:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Gaiam
for style points. a tristan is as good as a taranis in most fields but speed and lock times, and better than an ares in all fields but speed and lock times, but people still use taranis and ares. 200k for tristan vs 8-10m for interceptors, why? ares doesnt hit any harder than a tristan, or have the versatility, but still people pay 9m for them. people use them because they can.
assaults are specialized ships. they wont be as versatile as a cruiser no, but when you have found a good setup and know what your role is in a battle you will use one because you can.
Some valid points there.
But doesn't the trananis have a 25% rof bonus, while the tristen does not?
Not to mention the fact that the 10mn AB (and ya you know the pilots of obth ships will use them) make the Taranis even more deadly? Since drones can still hit a tristen, but have real trouble with a Taranis.
Anyways. Assult frigs would be great, at killing off the tacklers. In a fleet battle I guess they would warp in last and start taking out the vigils and what not that are holding down your allies.
Not to mention that they should be able to take a fair bit of punishment while doing it.
I would imagine they could kill off a BB o two as well.
The problem is... They will cost a ton, and it will stay that way for a long time to. Not to mention that they will be almost uninsurable. Meaning, it might be more costly to kill off the assult frigs rather then a BS. With insurance and assuming standerd mods. A assult frig may end up costing more then a tier 1 BS.
Has anyone fought an inty with one yet? I wold be realyl interested to know if the resitances and tanking ability allow you to withstand an inty assult, at least long enough to kill it. From my perspective it would seem that the tanked out assult ship should be able to hold together long enough to kill off the interceptor. But thats just me. I don't fly one, and won't till I either gank a hauler with 10K zyd or they come down in price.
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Lorth
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Posted - 2004.09.07 08:45:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Gaiam
for style points. a tristan is as good as a taranis in most fields but speed and lock times, and better than an ares in all fields but speed and lock times, but people still use taranis and ares. 200k for tristan vs 8-10m for interceptors, why? ares doesnt hit any harder than a tristan, or have the versatility, but still people pay 9m for them. people use them because they can.
assaults are specialized ships. they wont be as versatile as a cruiser no, but when you have found a good setup and know what your role is in a battle you will use one because you can.
Some valid points there.
But doesn't the trananis have a 25% rof bonus, while the tristen does not?
Not to mention the fact that the 10mn AB (and ya you know the pilots of obth ships will use them) make the Taranis even more deadly? Since drones can still hit a tristen, but have real trouble with a Taranis.
Anyways. Assult frigs would be great, at killing off the tacklers. In a fleet battle I guess they would warp in last and start taking out the vigils and what not that are holding down your allies.
Not to mention that they should be able to take a fair bit of punishment while doing it.
I would imagine they could kill off a BB o two as well.
The problem is... They will cost a ton, and it will stay that way for a long time to. Not to mention that they will be almost uninsurable. Meaning, it might be more costly to kill off the assult frigs rather then a BS. With insurance and assuming standerd mods. A assult frig may end up costing more then a tier 1 BS.
Has anyone fought an inty with one yet? I wold be realyl interested to know if the resitances and tanking ability allow you to withstand an inty assult, at least long enough to kill it. From my perspective it would seem that the tanked out assult ship should be able to hold together long enough to kill off the interceptor. But thats just me. I don't fly one, and won't till I either gank a hauler with 10K zyd or they come down in price.
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Feta Solamnia
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Posted - 2004.09.07 09:24:00 -
[53]
I can't see any way an inty able to take down an assault frig apart from the following situation:
Assault frig is fitted for short range
Inty is fitted for looong range and keeps distance with speed.
But that would be one totally wrong setup of both ships and both could escape anytime.
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Feta Solamnia
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Posted - 2004.09.07 09:24:00 -
[54]
I can't see any way an inty able to take down an assault frig apart from the following situation:
Assault frig is fitted for short range
Inty is fitted for looong range and keeps distance with speed.
But that would be one totally wrong setup of both ships and both could escape anytime.
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Parallax Error
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Posted - 2004.09.07 10:18:00 -
[55]
Some people still seem to be blatantly ignoring the fact that assault frigates cannot do anything above and beyond what a cruiser can do. Its not even an issue with them getting spanked by missiles, thats a wider issue for the whole of PvP.
Its not a case of cost, its not a case of wanting 't3h ub3r' ship. Assault frigates have no practical use.
Can they tank better than a Cruiser? NO
Can they fly faster than a Cruiser? NO
Can they out damage a Cruiser? NO
Can they bring more EW than a Cruiser? NO
Those of you that are telling the whole world theres nothing wrong with assault frigates, please outline sensibly the practical reason as to why you'd use an assault frigate over anything else.
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Parallax Error
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Posted - 2004.09.07 10:18:00 -
[56]
Some people still seem to be blatantly ignoring the fact that assault frigates cannot do anything above and beyond what a cruiser can do. Its not even an issue with them getting spanked by missiles, thats a wider issue for the whole of PvP.
Its not a case of cost, its not a case of wanting 't3h ub3r' ship. Assault frigates have no practical use.
Can they tank better than a Cruiser? NO
Can they fly faster than a Cruiser? NO
Can they out damage a Cruiser? NO
Can they bring more EW than a Cruiser? NO
Those of you that are telling the whole world theres nothing wrong with assault frigates, please outline sensibly the practical reason as to why you'd use an assault frigate over anything else.
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Grut
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Posted - 2004.09.07 10:30:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Parallax Error
Some people still seem to be blatantly ignoring the fact that assault frigates cannot do anything above and beyond what a cruiser can do. Its not even an issue with them getting spanked by missiles, thats a wider issue for the whole of PvP.
Its not a case of cost, its not a case of wanting 't3h ub3r' ship. Assault frigates have no practical use.
Can they tank better than a Cruiser? NO
Can they fly faster than a Cruiser? NO
Can they out damage a Cruiser? NO
Can they bring more EW than a Cruiser? NO
Those of you that are telling the whole world theres nothing wrong with assault frigates, please outline sensibly the practical reason as to why you'd use an assault frigate over anything else.
erm, cause they look really cool 
Mostly harmless |
Grut
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Posted - 2004.09.07 10:30:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Parallax Error
Some people still seem to be blatantly ignoring the fact that assault frigates cannot do anything above and beyond what a cruiser can do. Its not even an issue with them getting spanked by missiles, thats a wider issue for the whole of PvP.
Its not a case of cost, its not a case of wanting 't3h ub3r' ship. Assault frigates have no practical use.
Can they tank better than a Cruiser? NO
Can they fly faster than a Cruiser? NO
Can they out damage a Cruiser? NO
Can they bring more EW than a Cruiser? NO
Those of you that are telling the whole world theres nothing wrong with assault frigates, please outline sensibly the practical reason as to why you'd use an assault frigate over anything else.
erm, cause they look really cool
Mostly harmless |
MalaMo
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 10:39:00 -
[59]
Edited by: MalaMo on 07/09/2004 10:43:31
Originally by: Grut
Originally by: Parallax Error
Some people still seem to be blatantly ignoring the fact that assault frigates cannot do anything above and beyond what a cruiser can do. Its not even an issue with them getting spanked by missiles, thats a wider issue for the whole of PvP.
Its not a case of cost, its not a case of wanting 't3h ub3r' ship. Assault frigates have no practical use.
Can they tank better than a Cruiser? NO
Can they fly faster than a Cruiser? NO
Can they out damage a Cruiser? NO
Can they bring more EW than a Cruiser? NO
Those of you that are telling the whole world theres nothing wrong with assault frigates, please outline sensibly the practical reason as to why you'd use an assault frigate over anything else.
erm, cause they look really cool
I want bloods tristan 
-------------
Tanya Raskov > e stvarno minmatar zidaju brodove tako sto odlome deo fabrike i nakace motore
|
MalaMo
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 10:39:00 -
[60]
Edited by: MalaMo on 07/09/2004 10:43:31
Originally by: Grut
Originally by: Parallax Error
Some people still seem to be blatantly ignoring the fact that assault frigates cannot do anything above and beyond what a cruiser can do. Its not even an issue with them getting spanked by missiles, thats a wider issue for the whole of PvP.
Its not a case of cost, its not a case of wanting 't3h ub3r' ship. Assault frigates have no practical use.
Can they tank better than a Cruiser? NO
Can they fly faster than a Cruiser? NO
Can they out damage a Cruiser? NO
Can they bring more EW than a Cruiser? NO
Those of you that are telling the whole world theres nothing wrong with assault frigates, please outline sensibly the practical reason as to why you'd use an assault frigate over anything else.
erm, cause they look really cool
I want bloods tristan
-------------
Tanya Raskov > e stvarno minmatar zidaju brodove tako sto odlome deo fabrike i nakace motore
|
Sheolyn
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 11:07:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Parallax Error
Some people still seem to be blatantly ignoring the fact that assault frigates cannot do anything above and beyond what a cruiser can do. Its not even an issue with them getting spanked by missiles, thats a wider issue for the whole of PvP.
Its not a case of cost, its not a case of wanting 't3h ub3r' ship. Assault frigates have no practical use.
Can they tank better than a Cruiser? NO
Can they fly faster than a Cruiser? NO
Can they out damage a Cruiser? NO
Can they bring more EW than a Cruiser? NO
Those of you that are telling the whole world theres nothing wrong with assault frigates, please outline sensibly the practical reason as to why you'd use an assault frigate over anything else.
They do get their gun bonuses applied to small turrets which are the only turret size able to hit other frigs with full damage. With this in mind they should easily out damage any cruiser (infact any other ship) when shooting frigs. That said, I still agree that the assault class as a whole seems gimped atm.
|
Sheolyn
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 11:07:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Parallax Error
Some people still seem to be blatantly ignoring the fact that assault frigates cannot do anything above and beyond what a cruiser can do. Its not even an issue with them getting spanked by missiles, thats a wider issue for the whole of PvP.
Its not a case of cost, its not a case of wanting 't3h ub3r' ship. Assault frigates have no practical use.
Can they tank better than a Cruiser? NO
Can they fly faster than a Cruiser? NO
Can they out damage a Cruiser? NO
Can they bring more EW than a Cruiser? NO
Those of you that are telling the whole world theres nothing wrong with assault frigates, please outline sensibly the practical reason as to why you'd use an assault frigate over anything else.
They do get their gun bonuses applied to small turrets which are the only turret size able to hit other frigs with full damage. With this in mind they should easily out damage any cruiser (infact any other ship) when shooting frigs. That said, I still agree that the assault class as a whole seems gimped atm.
|
Grut
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 11:53:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Sheolyn
They do get their gun bonuses applied to small turrets which are the only turret size able to hit other frigs with full damage. With this in mind they should easily out damage any cruiser (infact any other ship) when shooting frigs. That said, I still agree that the assault class as a whole seems gimped atm.
Cruisers lack of damage bonus's is offset by their abillity to fit more small turrets all in all the dot output from assualts/small weap equiped cruisers is about the same.
Mostly harmless |
Grut
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 11:53:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Sheolyn
They do get their gun bonuses applied to small turrets which are the only turret size able to hit other frigs with full damage. With this in mind they should easily out damage any cruiser (infact any other ship) when shooting frigs. That said, I still agree that the assault class as a whole seems gimped atm.
Cruisers lack of damage bonus's is offset by their abillity to fit more small turrets all in all the dot output from assualts/small weap equiped cruisers is about the same.
Mostly harmless |
Julien Derida
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 11:56:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Gaiam
for style points. a tristan is as good as a taranis in most fields but speed and lock times
No, what you mean is:
Quote:
a tristan is as good as a taranis in most fields but speed, lock time, damage output, total HP, capacitor and CPU
----------------------------------------
Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK |
Julien Derida
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 11:56:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Gaiam
for style points. a tristan is as good as a taranis in most fields but speed and lock times
No, what you mean is:
Quote:
a tristan is as good as a taranis in most fields but speed, lock time, damage output, total HP, capacitor and CPU
----------------------------------------
Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK |
Grut
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 12:03:00 -
[67]
Originally by: MalaMo
I want bloods tristan
Tristans equate to bombers methinks so elite versions should be coming soon(tm)
Mostly harmless |
Grut
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 12:03:00 -
[68]
Originally by: MalaMo
I want bloods tristan
Tristans equate to bombers methinks so elite versions should be coming soon(tm)
Mostly harmless |
Shevar
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 12:25:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Gaiam
now why in the world should assault frigates be better than cruisers? can you be any more selfish? whatever gave you that idea?
these are specialized ships and used correctly will justify their build costs.
I must be dumb but I cant find a specialized niche where the assault will shine in more then any other ship. Unlike the covert ops frig, interceptor and even the support cruiser (even though the support cruiser niche is so frikking small im definatly not gonna waste 3 weeks training for it).
Quote:
for style points. a tristan is as good as a taranis in most fields but speed and lock times, and better than an ares in all fields but speed and lock times, but people still use taranis and ares. 200k for tristan vs 8-10m for interceptors, why? ares doesnt hit any harder than a tristan, or have the versatility, but still people pay 9m for them. people use them because they can.
Well newsflash for you, taranis is better in EVERY aspect then an incursus/tristan. It deals ALOT more dmg, it is ALOT faster, and can take slightly more dmg.
Now look at the enyo, it isnt fast, it can tank slightly more (although not as much as a cruiser) and deals the same dmg as a taranis. And has only 2 med slots (so no web and scrambler which sucks).
Now why would anyone use an enyo? And not because they can, but please be a bit mroe specefic ie. Anti frig stuff, 1:1's, pve etc. Every role I go through I come to the sorry conclusion there are better ships for em (and that is mainly because these ships are to slow to outpace cm's (remember long ago when the only frigates capable of outrunning cms where minmatar ones and the incursus? Well everyone was using minmatar frigates and the odd incursus back then, and that was just because rifters could outrun the cms while others couldnt)).
Basicly the reason assaults are useless is because CCP couldnt implement their missle agility system which they wanted right after castor. Ie making cruisemissles dodgable by most cruisers/frigs.
--------
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
|
Shevar
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 12:25:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Gaiam
now why in the world should assault frigates be better than cruisers? can you be any more selfish? whatever gave you that idea?
these are specialized ships and used correctly will justify their build costs.
I must be dumb but I cant find a specialized niche where the assault will shine in more then any other ship. Unlike the covert ops frig, interceptor and even the support cruiser (even though the support cruiser niche is so frikking small im definatly not gonna waste 3 weeks training for it).
Quote:
for style points. a tristan is as good as a taranis in most fields but speed and lock times, and better than an ares in all fields but speed and lock times, but people still use taranis and ares. 200k for tristan vs 8-10m for interceptors, why? ares doesnt hit any harder than a tristan, or have the versatility, but still people pay 9m for them. people use them because they can.
Well newsflash for you, taranis is better in EVERY aspect then an incursus/tristan. It deals ALOT more dmg, it is ALOT faster, and can take slightly more dmg.
Now look at the enyo, it isnt fast, it can tank slightly more (although not as much as a cruiser) and deals the same dmg as a taranis. And has only 2 med slots (so no web and scrambler which sucks).
Now why would anyone use an enyo? And not because they can, but please be a bit mroe specefic ie. Anti frig stuff, 1:1's, pve etc. Every role I go through I come to the sorry conclusion there are better ships for em (and that is mainly because these ships are to slow to outpace cm's (remember long ago when the only frigates capable of outrunning cms where minmatar ones and the incursus? Well everyone was using minmatar frigates and the odd incursus back then, and that was just because rifters could outrun the cms while others couldnt)).
Basicly the reason assaults are useless is because CCP couldnt implement their missle agility system which they wanted right after castor. Ie making cruisemissles dodgable by most cruisers/frigs.
--------
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
|
Shevar
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 12:28:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Sheolyn
Originally by: Parallax Error
Some people still seem to be blatantly ignoring the fact that assault frigates cannot do anything above and beyond what a cruiser can do. Its not even an issue with them getting spanked by missiles, thats a wider issue for the whole of PvP.
Its not a case of cost, its not a case of wanting 't3h ub3r' ship. Assault frigates have no practical use.
Can they tank better than a Cruiser? NO
Can they fly faster than a Cruiser? NO
Can they out damage a Cruiser? NO
Can they bring more EW than a Cruiser? NO
Those of you that are telling the whole world theres nothing wrong with assault frigates, please outline sensibly the practical reason as to why you'd use an assault frigate over anything else.
They do get their gun bonuses applied to small turrets which are the only turret size able to hit other frigs with full damage. With this in mind they should easily out damage any cruiser (infact any other ship) when shooting frigs. That said, I still agree that the assault class as a whole seems gimped atm.
Wrong they got range bonuses and only 1 dmg bonus. For example the wolf deals as much dmg as a claw. Not to mention comparing it to a maller using 5 med pulses or a thorax with 5 medium pulses AND 8 med drones.
--------
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
|
Shevar
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 12:28:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Sheolyn
Originally by: Parallax Error
Some people still seem to be blatantly ignoring the fact that assault frigates cannot do anything above and beyond what a cruiser can do. Its not even an issue with them getting spanked by missiles, thats a wider issue for the whole of PvP.
Its not a case of cost, its not a case of wanting 't3h ub3r' ship. Assault frigates have no practical use.
Can they tank better than a Cruiser? NO
Can they fly faster than a Cruiser? NO
Can they out damage a Cruiser? NO
Can they bring more EW than a Cruiser? NO
Those of you that are telling the whole world theres nothing wrong with assault frigates, please outline sensibly the practical reason as to why you'd use an assault frigate over anything else.
They do get their gun bonuses applied to small turrets which are the only turret size able to hit other frigs with full damage. With this in mind they should easily out damage any cruiser (infact any other ship) when shooting frigs. That said, I still agree that the assault class as a whole seems gimped atm.
Wrong they got range bonuses and only 1 dmg bonus. For example the wolf deals as much dmg as a claw. Not to mention comparing it to a maller using 5 med pulses or a thorax with 5 medium pulses AND 8 med drones.
--------
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
|
Juan Andalusian
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 12:30:00 -
[73]
Quote:
Basicly the reason assaults are useless is because CCP couldnt implement their missle agility system which they wanted right after castor. Ie making cruisemissles dodgable by most cruisers/frigs.
This has been the source of so many problems and changes.... pity CCP couldn't hack it.
DIE MISSILE AGILITY!!! DIE!!
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Juan Andalusian
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 12:30:00 -
[74]
Quote:
Basicly the reason assaults are useless is because CCP couldnt implement their missle agility system which they wanted right after castor. Ie making cruisemissles dodgable by most cruisers/frigs.
This has been the source of so many problems and changes.... pity CCP couldn't hack it.
DIE MISSILE AGILITY!!! DIE!!
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
mahhy
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 12:48:00 -
[75]
Edited by: mahhy on 07/09/2004 12:50:02
Originally by: Parallax Error
Can they tank better than a Cruiser? NO
Can they fly faster than a Cruiser? NO
Can they out damage a Cruiser? NO
Can they bring more EW than a Cruiser? NO
So, the only real problem with an assault frig is cost. If you compare it to other frigs, it packs a lot of punch in most cases. But the cost is simply idiotically-skyhigh-unbelievably-ridiculous. If they cost less than a cruiser, then maybe they'd have a clearer role
If they cost 5mill or so and then were used in packs, alongside an Inty or two, they'd shine in their roles. Inty's catch that pesky cruiser/BS, Assaults warp in and pound the living daylights out of it.
But the cost... 
edit: i don't own one so maybe I'm talking complete rubbish
|
mahhy
|
Posted - 2004.09.07 12:48:00 -
[76]
Edited by: mahhy on 07/09/2004 12:50:02
Originally by: Parallax Error
Can they tank better than a Cruiser? NO
Can they fly faster than a Cruiser? NO
Can they out damage a Cruiser? NO
Can they bring more EW than a Cruiser? NO
So, the only real problem with an assault frig is cost. If you compare it to other frigs, it packs a lot of punch in most cases. But the cost is simply idiotically-skyhigh-unbelievably-ridiculous. If they cost less than a cruiser, then maybe they'd have a clearer role
If they cost 5mill or so and then were used in packs, alongside an Inty or two, they'd shine in their roles. Inty's catch that pesky cruiser/BS, Assaults warp in and pound the living daylights out of it.
But the cost...
edit: i don't own one so maybe I'm talking complete rubbish
|
Tennotsukai
|
Posted - 2004.09.08 01:51:00 -
[77]
i belive the biggest problem came when they changed the name from escort frigates to assault frigates, thus giving a misleading role.
The point of these is to give cover and defence for the larger ships against such things as the inties.
Their range bonus, and tanking abilities should make an inty pilot think twice, they should be doing damage to the inty before it has a chance to come into range, its already been said in another post that these things can tank the damage of frigates including the inties forever and a day.
Also why are people compairing a frigate to a cruiser.. the keywords are there.. if ccp releace an assualt version of the cruiser (or even the battle cruiser, if you start to look that far ahead) are people going to be saying.. well, a battleship can still beat one..
These ships are there designed for a role, to protect the bigger ships i.e battleships in fleet battles.. not to be the new ganking toy.
As for the prices, yes unfortunatly the prices are way over the top due to the way T2 parts are being releaced and the prices people are charging for them.. (if you think their bad, the caldari support cruiser come in at roughly the same price as a tier 2 battleship.)
But hopefully when shiva hits, and T2 comps BPO's become availible, the prices will drop to a more affordable level.
(hopefully this has made some senec as its 3 in the morning and i need sleep....lol)
"scotty, i need more power to warp out."
"i canna give yer any more captain, the dilithium crystal was nerfed this morning.. yer just gonna have ta face it, we've been ganked." |
Tennotsukai
|
Posted - 2004.09.08 01:51:00 -
[78]
i belive the biggest problem came when they changed the name from escort frigates to assault frigates, thus giving a misleading role.
The point of these is to give cover and defence for the larger ships against such things as the inties.
Their range bonus, and tanking abilities should make an inty pilot think twice, they should be doing damage to the inty before it has a chance to come into range, its already been said in another post that these things can tank the damage of frigates including the inties forever and a day.
Also why are people compairing a frigate to a cruiser.. the keywords are there.. if ccp releace an assualt version of the cruiser (or even the battle cruiser, if you start to look that far ahead) are people going to be saying.. well, a battleship can still beat one..
These ships are there designed for a role, to protect the bigger ships i.e battleships in fleet battles.. not to be the new ganking toy.
As for the prices, yes unfortunatly the prices are way over the top due to the way T2 parts are being releaced and the prices people are charging for them.. (if you think their bad, the caldari support cruiser come in at roughly the same price as a tier 2 battleship.)
But hopefully when shiva hits, and T2 comps BPO's become availible, the prices will drop to a more affordable level.
(hopefully this has made some senec as its 3 in the morning and i need sleep....lol)
"scotty, i need more power to warp out."
"i canna give yer any more captain, the dilithium crystal was nerfed this morning.. yer just gonna have ta face it, we've been ganked." |
Asharee Intrefer
|
Posted - 2004.09.08 02:25:00 -
[79]
I just got an Ishkur. I have no idea of what to do with it, but I must say the thing looks damn mean.
|
Asharee Intrefer
|
Posted - 2004.09.08 02:25:00 -
[80]
I just got an Ishkur. I have no idea of what to do with it, but I must say the thing looks damn mean.
|
Istvaan Shogaatsu
|
Posted - 2004.09.08 02:27:00 -
[81]
The problem with assaults:
Anyone who can fly an assault, can fly either cruisers or battleships, which are better at stopping interceptors than assaults are. A Thorax packed with medium drones will shatter interceptors. A battleship's drone bay is certainly ample enough to defend it from any small ships.
So tell me this: If you're in a battleship, do you want the guy beside you in an assault, or another battleship?
Case closed, assault frigates failed.
|
Istvaan Shogaatsu
|
Posted - 2004.09.08 02:27:00 -
[82]
The problem with assaults:
Anyone who can fly an assault, can fly either cruisers or battleships, which are better at stopping interceptors than assaults are. A Thorax packed with medium drones will shatter interceptors. A battleship's drone bay is certainly ample enough to defend it from any small ships.
So tell me this: If you're in a battleship, do you want the guy beside you in an assault, or another battleship?
Case closed, assault frigates failed.
|
Sefilcarne Brigandio
|
Posted - 2004.09.08 03:48:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
The problem with assaults:
Anyone who can fly an assault, can fly either cruisers or battleships, which are better at stopping interceptors than assaults are. A Thorax packed with medium drones will shatter interceptors. A battleship's drone bay is certainly ample enough to defend it from any small ships.
So tell me this: If you're in a battleship, do you want the guy beside you in an assault, or another battleship?
Case closed, assault frigates failed.
I agree completely. As it stands now, Assaults are borked. I am sorry to all of you who own one, but sometimes the truth just sucks.
|
Sefilcarne Brigandio
|
Posted - 2004.09.08 03:48:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
The problem with assaults:
Anyone who can fly an assault, can fly either cruisers or battleships, which are better at stopping interceptors than assaults are. A Thorax packed with medium drones will shatter interceptors. A battleship's drone bay is certainly ample enough to defend it from any small ships.
So tell me this: If you're in a battleship, do you want the guy beside you in an assault, or another battleship?
Case closed, assault frigates failed.
I agree completely. As it stands now, Assaults are borked. I am sorry to all of you who own one, but sometimes the truth just sucks.
|
Grim Vandal
|
Posted - 2004.09.08 09:12:00 -
[85]
well you seem to forget THIS
missiles are the problem nothing else
they will get changed, thats for sure ...
... problem tho is that its post shiva and therefor all cruisers and all ships no able to move faster than 2,4 km/s simply suck.
imo shiva is awesome but balance is soo much more needed 
Greetings Grim |
Grim Vandal
|
Posted - 2004.09.08 09:12:00 -
[86]
well you seem to forget THIS
missiles are the problem nothing else
they will get changed, thats for sure ...
... problem tho is that its post shiva and therefor all cruisers and all ships no able to move faster than 2,4 km/s simply suck.
imo shiva is awesome but balance is soo much more needed
Greetings Grim |
Grut
|
Posted - 2004.09.08 10:08:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Tennotsukai
Also why are people compairing a frigate to a cruiser...
erm because its trying to do exactly the same role as a cruiser which cruisers do better and cheaper.....
Mostly harmless |
Grut
|
Posted - 2004.09.08 10:08:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Tennotsukai
Also why are people compairing a frigate to a cruiser...
erm because its trying to do exactly the same role as a cruiser which cruisers do better and cheaper.....
Mostly harmless |
Reassor
|
Posted - 2004.09.08 11:21:00 -
[89]
i was testing ishkur (on TQ coz on test server my skills are half down :/ )
with my setup :
shield = 290
armor = 690
subject of test :
how many cms i will survive >:)
1 missile = paradise ~ 310 dmg
next 1 = cataclysm ~ 110 dmg
but guess what ... after those 2 missiles i was half on armor ... so tell meh is this a bug or what? coz im so happy my corp m8 didnt send whole volley as i asked him to do ...
and to make those frigs usefull CCP need to make them faster ... (like normal frigs) coz now with fleet batt;e against bs normal frig will do teh trick much better
i agree those ships cant be as fast as intys ... but those need to over run missiles ffs!!!!
|
Reassor
|
Posted - 2004.09.08 11:21:00 -
[90]
i was testing ishkur (on TQ coz on test server my skills are half down :/ )
with my setup :
shield = 290
armor = 690
subject of test :
how many cms i will survive >:)
1 missile = paradise ~ 310 dmg
next 1 = cataclysm ~ 110 dmg
but guess what ... after those 2 missiles i was half on armor ... so tell meh is this a bug or what? coz im so happy my corp m8 didnt send whole volley as i asked him to do ...
and to make those frigs usefull CCP need to make them faster ... (like normal frigs) coz now with fleet batt;e against bs normal frig will do teh trick much better
i agree those ships cant be as fast as intys ... but those need to over run missiles ffs!!!!
|
Tennotsukai
|
Posted - 2004.09.08 11:21:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Grut
Originally by: Tennotsukai
Also why are people compairing a frigate to a cruiser...
erm because its trying to do exactly the same role as a cruiser which cruisers do better and cheaper.....
Thats only because of the prices of T2 comps, once they become more availible then the price will drop.
Plus you have to remember, that BS's have trouble hitting frigs, but no trouble hitting cruisers, so the assault frig will still have its role.. The only problem i can really see from all this is when shiva does get here, and the introduction of destroyers. Who's role is even more geared to anti frig defence the either the Assault or a cruiser.. this and that because its a new ship class, and not a tech 2 elite, the chances are it won't have the high skill reqs.
"scotty, i need more power to warp out."
"i canna give yer any more captain, the dilithium crystal was nerfed this morning.. yer just gonna have ta face it, we've been ganked." |
Tennotsukai
|
Posted - 2004.09.08 11:21:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Grut
Originally by: Tennotsukai
Also why are people compairing a frigate to a cruiser...
erm because its trying to do exactly the same role as a cruiser which cruisers do better and cheaper.....
Thats only because of the prices of T2 comps, once they become more availible then the price will drop.
Plus you have to remember, that BS's have trouble hitting frigs, but no trouble hitting cruisers, so the assault frig will still have its role.. The only problem i can really see from all this is when shiva does get here, and the introduction of destroyers. Who's role is even more geared to anti frig defence the either the Assault or a cruiser.. this and that because its a new ship class, and not a tech 2 elite, the chances are it won't have the high skill reqs.
"scotty, i need more power to warp out."
"i canna give yer any more captain, the dilithium crystal was nerfed this morning.. yer just gonna have ta face it, we've been ganked." |
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