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Kill off macro miners!

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Scientific Method	Posted - 2009.06.05 18:47:00 - [61] The Fools ore concept could work with a tweak - a Fools roid will collapse within 1 second of a mining laser being turned on it, with a big visual effect, obvious to a player, but no message for a macro to pick up on. There are other possibilities too. A corp tax on NPC corps looks like a good option, but if I'm right, it currently costs more to start a war (especially against an alliance) than to start a new corp, so macroers could simply corp-hop to escape wars. And anyway, corp tax as it currently works would have zero effect on macro miners; and if corp tax were extended to sales, it would hurt manufacturers and traders. The mineral market as it stands supports macro miners. I remember way back when the Trit price was stable at around 1 ISK, and Isogen was around 100 ISK. There was an Omber rush every Monday and Friday, and low sec mining ops were common. Now high sec ores have pretty much converged on an even ISK per minute figure, and hardly anyone ever mines in low sec, unless they feel they have control of that low sec area. Mission mining is where most legitimate high sec miners find their ore - although CCP sends mixed messages as to whether they're OK with this, some missions come with great mineable roids and others you can't get a barge through the gate. There is another option - make the use of strip miners illegal in certain systems, or in certain regular belts. Further research has shown that long-term exposure to radiation emitted by strip miners can be extremely harmful to civilian populations, and they have therefore been outlawed in ... wherever they need to be outlawed to make a difference. Concord will intervene to prevent illegal use.
Chione Urbi	Posted - 2009.06.05 22:44:00 - [62] How about just making .5 ABs something more challenging than .8 ABs? Currently the rats are YAWN even in .5 systems. No need to use modules, drones, or anything, as the hulk can just shield rep fast enough to handle them. So give the rats some teeth so that they'll challenge a hulk the way lower-sec rats do. If you don't defend yourself, you'll come back from 30-60 minutes of AFK with a nice ex-hulk marked as a wreck. And the true MM will then at least have to be more creative with their tactics or (more likely) move to .6+ systems, leaving the .5 systems to the professional miners.
Nub Sauce	Posted - 2009.06.05 22:56:00 - [63] Originally by: Chione Urbi How about just making .5 ABs something more challenging than .8 ABs? Currently the rats are YAWN even in .5 systems. No need to use modules, drones, or anything, as the hulk can just shield rep fast enough to handle them. So give the rats some teeth so that they'll challenge a hulk the way lower-sec rats do. If you don't defend yourself, you'll come back from 30-60 minutes of AFK with a nice ex-hulk marked as a wreck. And the true MM will then at least have to be more creative with their tactics or (more likely) move to .6+ systems, leaving the .5 systems to the professional miners. Not a bad idea... just adjust the scale of the belts in high sec. maybe the highest 2 or 3 secs would be able to macro still with a super rigged and set up hulk. But anything lower, they die. Then also shrink the belt size and spawn rate of the really high sec systems. This would not fix any 0 sec issues. But at least would help the situation out in high sec.
Beta Aurigae	Posted - 2009.06.08 17:28:00 - [64] Hey! What do you guys have against miners - as I said above - it's your life blood. No miners - no production - no missiles and other heavy gunk. Don't penalise - make it more bl**dy interesting. And more profitable.
Angelic Visage	Posted - 2009.06.08 17:32:00 - [65] Let us declare war on single people in NPC corps! (bad idea i know but sometimes i really really wish i could)
Chione Urbi	Posted - 2009.06.08 19:09:00 - [66] Of course, they could just eliminate the high-sec static ABs altogether. You want a belt to mine, you have to get a location from an Agent. Once mined out, back to agent to spawn another. The higher level agent gets larger and/or more roids. Low-sec could keep the static belts.
Sep'Shoni Gallente Carpe Diem inc.	Posted - 2009.06.08 21:34:00 - [67] Originally by: Shea Klant ... Give us a reason to go into the belts to fight. You're assuming that everyone wants to fight. If I wanted to fight I'd play Team Fortress II with my teenage daughter. Eve is the first game I've ever played for more than 6 weeks because its the first game I've ever heard of that allows you to play at industry and trade in an open-ended way which allows me to micro-manage the things I enjoy micro-managing and "automate" (via the market), or even just ignore the things I don't enjoy micro-managing. I would like mining to be more interactive and inherently interesting, not automated to oblivion via the same mistakes they made in Master of Orion II -- where they took away my ability to manage the things I liked managing and forced me to manage the things I found tedious. Sep'Shoni Mining ore and making stuff. Its not just a job, its an obsession.
Malus Erus	Posted - 2009.06.09 00:31:00 - [68] Originally by: Chione Urbi Of course, they could just eliminate the high-sec static ABs altogether. You want a belt to mine, you have to get a location from an Agent. Once mined out, back to agent to spawn another. The higher level agent gets larger and/or more roids. Low-sec could keep the static belts. Hmm, this sounds like a good idea...
Imortiss	Posted - 2009.06.16 13:54:00 - [69] Topics like this make me laugh quite hard. It's all well and good stating that the problem of macro miners needs to be solved but it is apparent that no one person here - or anyone I have encountered for that matter - actually understands how routed macro mining and botting are in Eve. Removing them would be a hard task, especially with an intricate economy that has take years to forge. CCP don't just have the problem of detection and prevention. They also have to maintain the economy of the game, which is a very intricate process. Macro miners artificially reduce the price of Ore and Minerals by providing such large and consistent quantities to the open market. This in turn has knock on effects in every other area of the game: spend less to make more... sort of. If you removed that large min and ore bag from the game, prices would inflate dramatically. There would be a horrific shock effect on the market that would effectively cripple a large percentage of players over night; players that have done nothing wrong. Any solution that is put in place would have to take this into account and sadly, none of you have actually come up with anything that accounts for that. What I am suggesting is that the market for minerals and ore has become somewhat dependent on macro miners. We all know that CCPs approach to them is to turn the other eye until they really must address the situation and there are probably numerous reasons for this; I am confident the effect on the economy is one of those reasons.
Cors It's A Trap	Posted - 2009.06.16 15:24:00 - [70] actually, combatting macro's in game is easy. Setup a pop up window. In that window it shows a vertical and horizontal graph for each mining laser. Have it randomlyslide left/right/up/down. If you keep the dot in the center, you get 125% mining yield. If it drifts off the center, it drops to 80%, 70% and so on down to 10%. This way each mining laser has to be manually adjusted to keep it at peak yield.

BeanBagKing Ch3mic4l Warfare DEFI4NT	Posted - 2009.06.16 16:04:00 - [71] Edited by: BeanBagKing on 16/06/2009 16:05:14 I already came up with a solution that works perfect and doesn't change the actual game play at all! Quote: CCP could ship a free, cheap, webcam with your purchase of the game. Then force you to have this webcam setup when your playing the game. If its uninstalled/removed, the game logs you out. Then, when CCP uses either the search method mentioned in the first post, or a report of a suspected macro runner (mission or mining), they can connect to the webcam and see if someone is actually there operating the game. Quote came from another topic, but it works, it could be used on all macro'ers, from missions to mining to hauling. The user would never even notice!
Sep'Shoni Gallente Carpe Diem inc.	Posted - 2009.06.17 17:03:00 - [72] Originally by: BeanBagKing Edited by: BeanBagKing on 16/06/2009 16:05:14 I already came up with a solution that works perfect and doesn't change the actual game play at all! Quote: CCP could ship a free, cheap, webcam with your purchase of the game. Then force you to have this webcam setup when your playing the game. If its uninstalled/removed, the game logs you out. Then, when CCP uses either the search method mentioned in the first post, or a report of a suspected macro runner (mission or mining), they can connect to the webcam and see if someone is actually there operating the game. Quote came from another topic, but it works, it could be used on all macro'ers, from missions to mining to hauling. The user would never even notice! I am NOT putting on makeup and doing my hair in order to play a game.
Tamahra Danke fuer den Fisch	Posted - 2009.06.18 07:14:00 - [73] either dangerous environments / dangerous roids / or fake roids is the only way to stop macro miners i think (or a combination of all of the three things)
Punhilda	Posted - 2009.06.21 22:01:00 - [74] I suspect 90% of all ice miners are bots or macroing it all. Which makes me ask why should I bother Ice mining? The cheaters are being rewarded as nothing is ever done to them, while I have to do it the way it's intended to be done, unless I break the Eula. Why dont CCP just remove all the Ice belts, and put X amount of Ice weekly into the hangar of everyone having a mac? That way it's at least fair play. As it functions now, there is no gameplay here. Meh. Might be easier to cancel my account and get back next year and see if CCp have fixed this sillyness? As it is now there is no reason whatsoever to continue playing if you're into mining.
Vaneshi SnowCrash	Posted - 2009.06.22 21:34:00 - [75] Originally by: Bibbleibble Taking the you have to be in a corp idea one step further, how about this: Each Noob corp has an option for a corp to apply for 'recruits'. When a character reaches one month or so, they are moved into one of these corps, so that they have the safety of the noob corps when they need it, but are pushed into the corp world. Whilst the idea sounds good. The problem is the current, starter NPC corps (at least the FNA) provide a lot of information for new players... from the people who have been there a lot longer than a month. Without serious changes to rookie chat and the NPE I can't see this being a good change.
Uronksur Suth Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.06.22 22:02:00 - [76] I dislike this because it would stop me from starting my miners on an asteroid and then going off and mowing the lawn (In high-sec obviously) Maybe limit the number of times a trial account or NPC corp member can activate a mining laser without having to answer some human verification question. I could be justified as saying that player corps are corps which have purchased a "mining license" I do agree that macro mining sucks.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.06.22 22:27:00 - [77] Originally by: Vaneshi SnowCrash Originally by: Bibbleibble Taking the you have to be in a corp idea one step further, how about this: Each Noob corp has an option for a corp to apply for 'recruits'. When a character reaches one month or so, they are moved into one of these corps, so that they have the safety of the noob corps when they need it, but are pushed into the corp world. Whilst the idea sounds good. The problem is the current, starter NPC corps (at least the FNA) provide a lot of information for new players... from the people who have been there a lot longer than a month. Without serious changes to rookie chat and the NPE I can't see this being a good change. Sound horrible honestly. No serious corp will put a request for "random" newbie, accepting whatever is pushed their way by the draft. So the only corps doing that would be those with absurd tax levels trying to bring in as much new players as possible and leeching away as much isk as possible before they leave without giving any benefit.
Leonard Nairdene Gallente Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.06.22 22:31:00 - [78] As a miner myself, I see my time/profits have been reduced by macro-miners. I have sunk a lot of time, SP, and ISK (for ships and mods) for mining. I do pvp and buy stuff for that as well - but my profession is a miner. I am in favor of seeing macro-miners / ratters be a thing of the past. I have seen some very good ideas, but a familiar reply comes up. "You are {insert some degrading insult about their intelligence} because it will cause the market to collapse and ruin the game" The issue lies in that you do not think the market can stand this. You are incorrect. Free markets always recover if left alone. Artificial bubbles must eventually pop. Macro-mining has caused this with the influx of minerals they bring in artificially to the market. If that supply is gone - you then see the prices go through the roof. Supply and demand. what would happen then? Would everyone emorage quit? Hardly .. people would start mining like no tomorrow. I for one would like to see this. My time/profit margin is not what it used to be 2-3 years ago due to the prices of "rares" going way down. CCP could increase yields slightly to help the market recover quicker. But I'd rather see more people see Mining as a good profession in EvE. The Priate and PVPer typically trash talk miners, but they rely on our goods. How much more vaulable would a miner be if prices went through the roof? Would we still see 27 Titans doing the conga?? (I myself loved that by the way!) Alliances/corporations would begin recruiting their indy divisions more seriously, instead of subjagating this to minaly alts. (WI Alliance is an awesome place -- great respect for their indy folks!) So it's a win-win for everyone! Miners get more vaule for the time they spend in the fields. Ratters don't have to compete for spawns as much (greater opportunity if macroers are gone.) PVPers have more targets (auto-macro-cloaky ravens in 0.0 are gone and they have to be at attention while ratting). I'm for a good healthy discussion on getting rid of the macroer, don't give this "the sky will fall" line. I and miners like me would love to see this. And it would balance out eventually. You just may have to be more careful and stop Leroying into every system you come into -- better protect that ship. It would also give more meaning to blob engagements. I did buy fire insurance before I posted this .. flame on! -Leo Oh Lord, please help me keep my mind on ... "OH LOOK A BIRD !!" ... one thing at a time.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.06.23 09:27:00 - [79] You see, Leonard Nairdene, is not that the economy will collapse. It will survive. It is that most suggestion I have seen here and in other threads, will not affect professional macros used by RMT from more than a few days. Captcha and the various derivatives can be solved by advanced macros, so they will, at most catch the home brewed macro users. Removing local will help macros, they have no problem spamming scan every 3 seconds and recognizing the presence of a ship or probe in range while a human player will have to scroll all the results and could miss the added entry. The best idea I have seen is that of exploration belts only (easy to find ones) with some or several asteroid that aren't worth mining. Macros would solve that (at most with a initial human input in finding the belt) but it will at least make mining more interesting, while the captcha version will make it more annoying. Mining with guns in the Drone regions is a different problem and it is what has dropped high end values, together with people learning that recycling meta 0 loot wield a good quantity of minerals and the removal of the NPC sold shuttle. Sadly people use platinum insurance payout minus platinum insurance cost to price ships and that keep the mineral basket in a equilibrium that favour tritanium and damage middle and high ends. So it is a lot of concurring causes and curing one will help but not resolve everything.
Leonard Nairdene Gallente Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.06.23 17:46:00 - [80] Edited by: Leonard Nairdene on 23/06/2009 17:54:51 Thanks for the reply! I am not as tech savy as a lot of EvE players. I'm not into coding or knowing all that these macroers can and cannot do. That said I have read where CCP could employ some various methods of catching them. I am not in favor of a pop-up screen where we miners would have to jump through a series of hoops. My main grip was the periodic use of the market will crash if we fix this issue being played. I would think that a macroer could detect changes in the screen of any sort. Again, I am not tech savy. Is there not some filter, bannable IP addys, (insert idea here) that can make this happen? Just don't throw out the baby with the water. Fix this issue and the market will recover, and function as it should - not at some artificial rate. That was my point. Edit: On the insurance fraud. Just my 2 isk worth. Make it where if you have a loss from self destruction, or from a corpmate/alliancemate that the insurance is automatically reduced. That opens up having a friend or an alt in an Npc corp destroy the ship - was it a friend or a jr pirate? Maybe include them in as well. An incentive for new pirates in Npc corps to pvp ... Not only do they get the satisfaction of sploding a ship, but they also just caused your insurance to be halved. Oh Lord, please help me keep my mind on ... "OH LOOK A BIRD !!" ... one thing at a time.

Creiger Rykov	Posted - 2009.06.23 19:46:00 - [81] Originally by: Skulldara Also, perhaps some sort of mining mini-game that is fun to play. Some sort of Tetris-like stacking game which is random enough to beat macros, but fun and entertaining enough to not make miners whine. It would also help pass the time while mining. Plus, if you do really well in the mini game you gain bonuses to the yield. Sad as an example as it may be, for mining in Free Realms you played a game that was a spin on Bejeweled. The actual ore is separate blocks, and the 'junk' material is the stuff you match to make the ore hit the bottom of the screen to collect.
Refry	Posted - 2009.06.24 20:25:00 - [82] make veld yeild less trit, and increase the trit in other minerals. Or lower the amount of trit needed to build but replace the % with other minerals, they'll still macro but at least they have to reset and change, which means actually looking at the computer once in a while
Qiaro	Posted - 2009.06.24 22:23:00 - [83] Edited by: Qiaro on 24/06/2009 22:23:38 Minigames! Yay! Bejeweled is a damn good time! So is Tetris, or Bust-a-Move! Could we do Plants Vs. Zombies mining? I'd be down for that.
Allen Ramses Caldari Typo Corp	Posted - 2009.06.24 23:15:00 - [84] The answer to the trit macro problem lies within rogue drone loot. Reduce it to 20% of what it currently is, and add a bounty comparable with other NPC rats. Problem solved.
Beta Aurigae	Posted - 2009.06.25 20:09:00 - [85] I shall re-iterate. One last time. The problem is economic. Give people legal ways of achieving the same ends but which yield MORE PROFIT and the problem goes away. More or less; I'll admit you probably can't ever hope to get rid of macro-mining entirely. But you can make it so pathetic economically that they will be total idiots if they bother.
Checkle	Posted - 2009.06.25 22:35:00 - [86] I propose an Eve combat minigame, while you're mining, you have a new window with an eve simulation minigame, you get a random ship and you're faced with a random pack of enemies (Set up for according to the ship you got). Maybe not all the time, but every once in a while. heh.
DustinTheWind1	Posted - 2009.06.26 06:21:00 - [87] Edited by: DustinTheWind1 on 26/06/2009 06:24:15 Originally by: Shea Klant The only solution to macro mining is to simply make it a legitamit part of the game. Having mining be anything other than an automated process is deliberately soul sucking and doesn't bring anything to the game. I suppose they could do more advanced mining that would require specialized equipment and deliberate prospecting for the chance to fine very valuable veins of ore, but CCP does not seem that interested. By giving miners some in-game macro solutions such as deployable cans that automatically mine asteroids, industrial ship sized cargo drones for transferring ore between the operation and stations or other ships, and non-POS mods or ships that can refine in the field, the typical miner can become a mining op foreman rather than the digital equivalent of a ditch digger. To keep things from getting entirely too out of hand it could be restricted to non-high sec areas. This brings the legit miner up to par with the macro miners, and gives people more reason to set up things in low-sec and 0.0 space, providing more targets for the pirates and roaming gangs, minerals for the fleets, and money for the care bears, while diminishing the influence of the farmers and isk sellers Shea Klant seemed to have the best idea here in my opinion. If you cant beat em then assimilate em. That or make the bonus to interactive gaming so explosive that it way outdoes macro mining which is unlikely. Not to mention the demand for minerals cant be over looked unless you can eliminate the macro miner in the first place so we are back to where we started. If you cant beat em then assimilate em. Edit* Then once they "macro's" are eliminated then you can then adjust the mineral yield so mining for days isn't so necessary. But first take out the competition.


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