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Rifter vs Caracal - Is there a ôreasonableö way for the Rifter to win?

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McKosh	Posted - 2009.05.20 14:11:00 - [1] A friend and I decided to eject some cargo, ôsteal itö from each otherà Therefore agro, and ôduelö each other in order to determine whether a Rifter (Frigate) can take on a Caracal (Cruiser)à I am thinking no. I was able to take him down to ~70% shields and ~30% capacitor when I had to cry uncle (ran out of Capacitor and Armor was at 20%). The RifterÆs strengths (Speed/Agility) seem to be negated by the fact that missiles always hit. My conclusion is that a Frigate cannot take on a missile cruiser. Is this a correct conclusion or do I need to adjust my tactics and/or train different skills? On a side note, how does one take on a missile cruiser? I have read that missiles are generally a weak from of PvP, but I find them MOST annoying. Do you take these on with a non-missile cruiser? Thank you in advance for any advice you can give.
Rexthor Hammerfists Rage of Inferno Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2009.05.20 14:22:00 - [2] Edited by: Rexthor Hammerfists on 20/05/2009 14:22:33 First off, missiles are definately not weak in pvp ing eneral but in some situation where as turrets are weak in others. Take the torp raven as example or ham drake or the cerb. In your case youve met your nemesis, a proper fitted caracal will have no problems taking out a t1 frig and even most t2 ones, as it can counter your only way to evade most of the missiles damage - speed. Itll web and kill you as you have to fit acs to do any damage. On the other hand a rupture would kill the caracal easily ;) -
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2009.05.20 14:25:00 - [3] Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 20/05/2009 14:26:19 Use the Rifter's bonuses to tilt the fight in your favour. Only if he uses heavy missiles or HAMs. AB, armour repair, nos to help cap .. should be able to do it. Use range of Barrage keeping your speed well above heavy missiles effective "bracket" and the tracking bonus makes sure that the guns hit the target. If he is using light missiles, forget it. He will kill you first every time. Missiles do just fine in PvP, but they are sensitive to target size/speed so can be tricky to use. Edit after reading 2nd post: Yea, if it is fitted to counter frigates you have no chance whatsoever, but that is cheating if you ask me
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2009.05.20 15:06:00 - [4] Originally by: McKosh A friend and I decided to eject some cargo, ôsteal itö from each otherà Therefore agro, and ôduelö each other in order to determine whether a Rifter (Frigate) can take on a Caracal (Cruiser)à I am thinking no. I was able to take him down to ~70% shields and ~30% capacitor when I had to cry uncle (ran out of Capacitor and Armor was at 20%). The RifterÆs strengths (Speed/Agility) seem to be negated by the fact that missiles always hit. My conclusion is that a Frigate cannot take on a missile cruiser. Is this a correct conclusion or do I need to adjust my tactics and/or train different skills? On a side note, how does one take on a missile cruiser? I have read that missiles are generally a weak from of PvP, but I find them MOST annoying. Do you take these on with a non-missile cruiser? Thank you in advance for any advice you can give. You'd prefer to fight a Vexor ? Imagine what those drones will do to your frig. Or try to fight a Thorax in a Kestrel, and then complain again about how annoying a Caracals missiles are.
Aattos Limited Liability	Posted - 2009.05.20 17:32:00 - [5] If the caracal is especially fail-fit and flown by a rookie pilot in a mining corp: http://llc.griefwatch.net/?p=details&kill=15
McKosh Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.20 17:50:00 - [6] Roger that- thanks for the input you guys. I think what I need to do in the next week or so to have a better chance.
Meylota LeFey Minmatar	Posted - 2009.05.20 20:36:00 - [7] Originally by: Aattos If the caracal is especially fail-fit and flown by a rookie pilot in a mining corp: http://llc.griefwatch.net/?p=details&kill=15 Ye gods! That is the WORST Caracal fit I think I've ever seen. How would you have done against this: ;) 5x AML II, CN Bloodclaws for ammo 1x MWD II 2X LSE II 1x PWNAGE 1x Web 2x BCS II 2x EM resist rig 1x Thermal resist rig Can replace the TP with a 2nd web, but I find I like the TP for the things that orbit out beyond even heated web range -- gives me at least something to help my missiles hurt more. And EFT gives omni EHP of almost 30K on it too, though that's just theorycrafting, of course.
FlyinS Caldari Planetary Industry and Trade Organization	Posted - 2009.05.20 20:59:00 - [8] Originally by: Aattos If the caracal is especially fail-fit and flown by a rookie pilot in a mining corp: http://llc.griefwatch.net/?p=details&kill=15 That ship should be named "Mission Loot Caracal"
Shun Makoto Caldari 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit	Posted - 2009.05.20 21:00:00 - [9] If a frigate fights a Assault Missile Caracal, 98/100 That Caracal will win.
Gartel Reiman Civis Romanus Sum	Posted - 2009.05.21 00:38:00 - [10] Originally by: McKosh Roger that- thanks for the input you guys. I think what I need to do in the next week or so to have a better chance. In fact it might be an interesting test to have your corpmate put together a Heavy Missile, and Heavy Assault Missile versions of hit Caracal and duel those. I'm guessing that he was using Assault launchers, which will be brutally effective against frigates and in this can you would stand very little chance of beating him. Against the heavies and heavy assaults, though, they would likely hit you for less actual damage (though would hit cruisers for more) so you might be able to tank enough to take him out too - Caracals tend to have fairly weak tanks. I expect you'd easily be able to beat a HAM Caracal if it's a reasonably realistic setup and not packing dual webs and dual painters for example, while the heavy missile Caracal could go either way. In any case I expect it would be an interesting exercise for both of you and going up against HAMs in particular should give you more perspective on your (understandable) view that missiles have no drawbacks. (Note that Assault Launchers are the only medium-sized weapon designed to hit small-sized ships - so in your case you were going up against something with more raw damage than you which can hit you very well at much longer ranges than you can hit, and also has more EHP and better potential ability to sustain it (more grid and cap). At this point you should be able to see why you'd lose. Other cruiser-sized weapons though won't be able to hit you as well so you'd stand a much better chance.)
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.05.21 10:53:00 - [11] If it's a HM/HAM Caracal without drones, you've got a decent enough chance. If it's a PVP-fit AML Caracal with Warriors, just start spamming "warp" already.
Starnap	Posted - 2009.05.21 11:22:00 - [12] I normally expect to kill a Caracal with my Rifter, because most of the ones I find are fitted with heavy launchers - orbit fast with afterburner and they don't hurt you much. But yeah, Assault launchers will kill you cos light missiles will hit for full damage.
Muad' Dib Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc	Posted - 2009.05.21 15:24:00 - [13] Originally by: McKosh A friend and I decided to eject some cargo, ôsteal itö from each otherà Therefore agro, and ôduelö each other in order to determine whether a Rifter (Frigate) can take on a Caracal (Cruiser)à I am thinking no. I was able to take him down to ~70% shields and ~30% capacitor when I had to cry uncle (ran out of Capacitor and Armor was at 20%). The RifterÆs strengths (Speed/Agility) seem to be negated by the fact that missiles always hit. My conclusion is that a Frigate cannot take on a missile cruiser. Is this a correct conclusion or do I need to adjust my tactics and/or train different skills? On a side note, how does one take on a missile cruiser? I have read that missiles are generally a weak from of PvP, but I find them MOST annoying. Do you take these on with a non-missile cruiser? Thank you in advance for any advice you can give. Properly fitted Rifter vs Caracal with HAMS or HML has good chance of winning, Rifter vs Caracal with t2 AML's will get butt-***d. --- I smack just for myself. Your signature file is to large. Please note: we do not allow signature files larger than 24000 bytes - Fallout
Emerhyz	Posted - 2009.05.21 15:31:00 - [14] OP, switch up, You and ur friend switch up on which ship you were using, post what happened...I'm just curious. I fly a Caracal, and my ONLY goal is to pop tacklers, so yeah. I use 10MN Afterburner, Warp Scram, and Web only. Others who get pointed, usually have target painter on him so I can save there lives. I've never lost to 1v1 in my Caracal (It's called Frigate Popper), but if I can't kill him fast enough, and his fleet of 4 comes in, I'm usually gone. I've even tested that a Caracal in highsec (I defend my carebears) with 2 warp core stabs can kill a rifter, or any other t1 frig for that matter (My results). So, BCII's don't help too much. Note: the rifter and such were setup for killing (They weren't noobs).
Gartel Reiman Civis Romanus Sum	Posted - 2009.05.21 16:41:00 - [15] Originally by: Emerhyz I've even tested that a Caracal in highsec (I defend my carebears) with 2 warp core stabs can kill a rifter, or any other t1 frig for that matter (My results). So, BCII's don't help too much. A pair of BCS IIs increase your (missile) DPS by 43.8% - that's quite substantial. The good news in your case is that against Rifters you have a much better damage:tank ratio even without the BCS, so you've generally been OK. The penalties of WCS drop your lock range below 20km though as well as causing you to take 28 seconds or more to lock the Rifter; I suppose given the immunity to long-range points the locking range isn't that big a deal (not being able to fire at an interceptor in a 25km orbit isn't a big deal if you can just warp out), but the lock times must be painful. Especially if you've warped in to defend someone, the extra 20 seconds of locking time, and extra time it takes to kill the Rifters with out BCS could easily be enough for them to lose their ship.
Riki Halcyon	Posted - 2009.05.21 18:53:00 - [16] Originally by: McKosh A friend and I decided to eject some cargo, ôsteal itö from each otherà Therefore agro, and ôduelö each other in order to determine whether a Rifter (Frigate) can take on a Caracal (Cruiser)à I enjoyed the discussion and learned a lot. One note though, you don't have to steal from each other to fight without concord interrupting - simply create a fleet that only the two of you join and you can test fight as much as you want (remember though that testing smart bombs in high sec can be very dangerous - if you damage anyone else you will agro Concord). Good luck!
Ugly Eric	Posted - 2009.05.21 18:57:00 - [17] I've popped quite a few caracals with my rifter by flying to 50m range.. you click the kep at range button, and keep it on 50m. The missiles do not ignite in such short range, but still your autocannons do damage. The trick here is to get close enough. But if you get there, and theres no drones invloved, its pretty damn easy pick, the caracal I mean. Ugly
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2009.05.21 19:27:00 - [18] Originally by: Riki Halcyon One note though, you don't have to steal from each other to fight without concord interrupting - simply create a fleet that only the two of you join and you can test fight as much as you want (remember though that testing smart bombs in high sec can be very dangerous - if you damage anyone else you will agro Concord). Good luck! If they are in the same corporation. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Gartel Reiman Civis Romanus Sum	Posted - 2009.05.21 20:43:00 - [19] Originally by: Anubis Xian Originally by: Riki Halcyon One note though, you don't have to steal from each other to fight without concord interrupting - simply create a fleet that only the two of you join and you can test fight as much as you want (remember though that testing smart bombs in high sec can be very dangerous - if you damage anyone else you will agro Concord). Good luck! If they are in the same corporation. ...and if they are, then there's no need for the fleet. Basically, your presence (or not) in a fleet never affects in any way who you are allowed to shoot. I think it used to, but this way changed something like two or three years ago, and definitely hasn't for a very long time.
Riki Halcyon	Posted - 2009.05.21 21:04:00 - [20] Edited by: Riki Halcyon on 21/05/2009 21:06:02 Originally by: Gartel Reiman Originally by: Anubis Xian Originally by: Riki Halcyon One note though, you don't have to steal from each other to fight without concord interrupting - simply create a fleet that only the two of you join and you can test fight as much as you want (remember though that testing smart bombs in high sec can be very dangerous - if you damage anyone else you will agro Concord). Good luck! If they are in the same corporation. ...and if they are, then there's no need for the fleet. Basically, your presence (or not) in a fleet never affects in any way who you are allowed to shoot. I think it used to, but this way changed something like two or three years ago, and definitely hasn't for a very long time. Umm, well . . . uh, yeah . . . umm, so I guess ignore my post then, other than the part where I mention how I learned from the discussion, I've learned even more now. Umm yeah. EDIT: to remove my foot from my mouth in previous post - tastes like . . . rubber. (Actually the edit was just for a typo).
TedJanitor	Posted - 2009.05.22 11:04:00 - [21] The funny thing being I've lost this fight before... depressing really, but I went at it in a t1 mission basic fitted caracal with no web... didn't go well.
Condemned Bishop	Posted - 2009.05.22 16:14:00 - [22] A properly fitted Caracal on a trialaccount; no chance for a rifter... http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-Esist+Meintagnichtheute-kills.html

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