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Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2009.05.22 04:12:00 - [31] Originally by: abrasive soap Originally by: Cambarus Nerfs to the caldari over the last few years: fyp and the ham drake was pretty good pre nano nerf for a in your face missile spammer but the missile formula change destroyed hams, rockets, and for the most part, torps. On the other hand, standard missiles, heavy missiles, and cruise missiles (sort of but not really since they could insta pop non moving frigates pre nano nerf/missile changes) were given a pretty significant increase since most things could just outrun the missiles. Now they hurt quite a bit and they always hit. Left in the important part, wasn't here for the nerfs you mentioned and given that I've been playing nearly 3 years anything I wasn't here for qualifies as more than a few years
trustzoe Caldari Haven Front	Posted - 2009.05.22 04:45:00 - [32] Originally by: Saisio Arisu During my time in eve i have been seeing missils got nerfed the drake and now ecm, just cause caldari ship are skillpoint heavy dosen't mean that the players who does developed their skill towards it shall suffer because of the players who doesn't refer to the general mass of the eve community starts screaming for nerf. IMHO, I have been a Caldari pilot for 4 years now and have seen a lot of changes. When I look back I would say the best race (factoring PVP and PVE) was Caldari then Gallente > Minmatar > Amarr (with Amarr really sucking). Fast forward to now and I would say it is Caldari/Amarr > Gallente/Minmatar. Caldari still has great PVP ships and the most popular Mission ships. Undock at any Mission station and you will see 95% Caldari ships outside. The Caldari race has little to whine about. We have had it easy when it comes to making ISK early in our career and we have ships that are welcome in all PVP gang types.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2009.05.22 07:29:00 - [33] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Saisio Arisu just cause caldari ship are skillpoint heavy dosen't mean that the players who does developed their skill towards it shall suffer Caldari Skill requirements: - Shields - Missiles OR - Shields - Guns Minmatar Skill Requirements: - Shields - Armor - Gunnery - Missiles - Drones -Liang I dunno, my own 30 odd million skill points are dumped into: Missiles Guns Shields Armor (sometimes I like to fly Amarr, plus those extra armor and hull HP don't hurt) Ships Engineering Electronics Drones Granted, in any given caldari ship I don't actually need ALL of those skill at the same time. My Hybrid skills were literally trained either because 1) I was a noob and the Drake didn't exist yet or 2) The harpy is awesome. About 3 million of my gun skills are for amarrian based weapons specifically (trained before amarr was awesome because I didn't believe the trolls). My drone skills, while handy are certainly a poor investment for a new caldari pilot - Drone Interfacing V just isn't terribly handy for a drake pilot and all. Really, I think the idea that Caldari is any easier to train for is mostly a myth. It's certainly true that it's generally easier to spec for any given ship and weapon as Caldari, but if you want to fly them all it basically works out about the same. Only a handful of the minmatar ships really desperately need the insane skillpoint levels, but for the most part it's about the same. The one kick in the pants I suppose is the "some ships shield tank and some armor tank" which is certainly a more common problem than the multitude of weapon systems, but I trained to faily good armor skills in a week or two when I decided lasers were more awesome than missiles. Besides, it seems to me that the REAL reason minmatar require such high SP levels is because of the overall inadequacy of the ships can only be compensated for with gobs of skill and experience
Misanth The Glenn Quagmire Finishing School for Young Ladies Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2009.05.22 07:32:00 - [34] 1/10. Way to obvious, but you did get replies so +1. - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen.
KustoMKilleR Divine Retribution Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.05.22 07:39:00 - [35] OP obviously hasnt come up against a rook since the "nerf". those things are good solo now. Shununununun....... -------------- Originally by: CCP Big Dumb Object Our only limitations are time and imagination. And crippling alcoholism
Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa Minmatar The Perfect Harvesting Experience	Posted - 2009.05.22 09:22:00 - [36] Wasn't it because of FALCON ? ----------------------------------------------- Originally by: Paper Rock's fine, nerf Scissors
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.05.22 09:41:00 - [37] Yeah, it's a bit of a myth that Caldari is easy to train for, coming from the prior (and current) effectiveness of PVE Ravens. Most SP-intensive is obviously Minmatar. But Caldari requires hybrids, missiles (the missile skill tree is a lot longer than any single gunnery one), ewar, shield and a bit of armour tanking for Raven/Scorp, and T2 light and medium drones. This is about the same as Amarr, which requires gunnery and missiles for Khanid and armour-tanking (but I can't think of many commonly shield-tanked Amarr ships offhand - maybe buffer Omen/Sacrilege?). There's a bit more of an emphasis on drones (heavies/sentries on Geddon), but less of one on ewar (both races have decent recons but fewer mids in general limits the use of ewar on non-specialised ships). That leaves Gallente as the least SP-intensive race. Hybrids, drones and armour, obviously - but not nearly as much emphasis on missiles as Khanid/Caldari. The drone skill tree is nowhere near as long as the missile one, and although you can shield-tank Myrms, Hypes and Brutices, it's not that commonly done, while the emphasis on ewar is a lot less than Caldari.
KiloAlpha Southern Cross Trilogy	Posted - 2009.05.22 10:35:00 - [38] Edited by: KiloAlpha on 22/05/2009 10:37:15 Edited by: KiloAlpha on 22/05/2009 10:36:10 Originally by: 4THELULZ Quote: missils got nerfed Missiles are fine. Quote: the drake Is an excellent ship. Quote: and now ecm Is still good, just not godmode. Quote: caldari ship are skillpoint heavy Try flying Minmatar. Quote: mass of the eve community starts screaming for nerf. I'd only be worrying about nerf cries if you fly Amarr. u have won the thread
Mona X Caldari Polish Task Forces C0VEN	Posted - 2009.05.22 19:31:00 - [39] Originally by: Rukia KuchikiSan Holy noobness... his range bonus allow that ship to sit further than any other sniper, and that is a huge advantage. Yeah? Apoc can shoot at similar range with LR guns, but hits harder, twice as far with short range guns, and all this without ever worring about cap, reloading ammo or waiting half day for changing it for shorter vesrion.
arbiter reborn	Posted - 2009.05.22 19:42:00 - [40] whaat... caldari are the most rediculously un sp heavy race there is, try minmitar
Lili Lu Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships	Posted - 2009.05.22 21:47:00 - [41] Edited by: Lili Lu on 22/05/2009 21:49:28 Originally by: trustzoe Originally by: Saisio Arisu During my time in eve i have been seeing missils got nerfed the drake and now ecm, just cause caldari ship are skillpoint heavy dosen't mean that the players who does developed their skill towards it shall suffer because of the players who doesn't refer to the general mass of the eve community starts screaming for nerf. IMHO, I have been a Caldari pilot for 4 years now and have seen a lot of changes. When I look back I would say the best race (factoring PVP and PVE) was Caldari then Gallente > Minmatar > Amarr (with Amarr really sucking). Fast forward to now and I would say it is Caldari/Amarr > Gallente/Minmatar. Caldari still has great PVP ships and the most popular Mission ships. Undock at any Mission station and you will see 95% Caldari ships outside. The Caldari race has little to whine about. We have had it easy when it comes to making ISK early in our career and we have ships that are welcome in all PVP gang types. This. Thankfully a Caldari pilot who sees it and is willing to admit it. I have toons that fly all the races, and Caldari/missiles/rails whatever have issues but not anything greater than any other weapon system or race. If anything needs a buff it is projectiles, particularly arty, and the Minmatar, Gallente recons, and the Pilgrim. I really am sick of the deluge of Caldari whines lately. Caldari pilots like the op got too used to easy mode with FALCONS in pvp and Ravens in pve. You still have overpowered passive shield tanking and 30% bonuses on ecm. Your 30% bonuses with ecm are so weak compared to 5% bonused damps and target painter and 60% webs. Give it a rest and play some other races so you can gain some perspective ffs. edit- Oh and to address the other recent whine threads, the Eagle is fine, does it's job. and the Cerb is quite good
MrHarryCanyon	Posted - 2009.05.22 22:51:00 - [42] caldari's race advantages are supposed to be EWAR, shields and kickass missiles.... oh and be smarter then all other races, SO STOP MAKING US LOOK BAD. get rid of this thread. btw if you compare caldari against other races 1 vs 1 your a fool and missiles are still awesome.
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2009.05.22 23:08:00 - [43] Quote: You still have overpowered passive shield tanking Quoting someone who doesnt realise that you give EVERYTHING up in order to achieve a decent passive shield regen tank. That's all you can do then is tank. Want to see a comedy killmail? Look for the SPR II's and Field Purgers.
Mystafyre Caldari Dark Materials Heretic Nation	Posted - 2009.05.22 23:26:00 - [44] Torpedoes and heavy missiles are awesome. HAMs has always been a good laugh. Drake rawks, just turn on your MWD and bump up the resistances, grab some caldari navy scources and kick ass
Mystafyre Caldari Dark Materials Heretic Nation	Posted - 2009.05.22 23:26:00 - [45] Originally by: Soporo Quote: You still have overpowered passive shield tanking Quoting someone who doesnt realise that you give EVERYTHING up in order to achieve a decent passive shield regen tank. That's all you can do then is tank. Want to see a comedy killmail? Look for the SPR II's and Field Purgers. Yeah typical fail passive drake sure tanks like 700 dps omni, but deals out like 140 dps
Mystafyre Caldari Dark Materials Heretic Nation	Posted - 2009.05.22 23:36:00 - [46] Originally by: Lili Lu Edited by: Lili Lu on 22/05/2009 21:49:28 Originally by: trustzoe Originally by: Saisio Arisu During my time in eve i have been seeing missils got nerfed the drake and now ecm, just cause caldari ship are skillpoint heavy dosen't mean that the players who does developed their skill towards it shall suffer because of the players who doesn't refer to the general mass of the eve community starts screaming for nerf. IMHO, I have been a Caldari pilot for 4 years now and have seen a lot of changes. When I look back I would say the best race (factoring PVP and PVE) was Caldari then Gallente > Minmatar > Amarr (with Amarr really sucking). Fast forward to now and I would say it is Caldari/Amarr > Gallente/Minmatar. Caldari still has great PVP ships and the most popular Mission ships. Undock at any Mission station and you will see 95% Caldari ships outside. The Caldari race has little to whine about. We have had it easy when it comes to making ISK early in our career and we have ships that are welcome in all PVP gang types. This. Thankfully a Caldari pilot who sees it and is willing to admit it. I have toons that fly all the races, and Caldari/missiles/rails whatever have issues but not anything greater than any other weapon system or race. If anything needs a buff it is projectiles, particularly arty, and the Minmatar, Gallente recons, and the Pilgrim. I really am sick of the deluge of Caldari whines lately. Caldari pilots like the op got too used to easy mode with FALCONS in pvp and Ravens in pve. You still have overpowered passive shield tanking and 30% bonuses on ecm. Your 30% bonuses with ecm are so weak compared to 5% bonused damps and target painter and 60% webs. Give it a rest and play some other races so you can gain some perspective ffs. edit- Oh and to address the other recent whine threads, the Eagle is fine, does it's job. and the Cerb is quite good Ooh shut up there. Falcon is usefull only in 3 to 1 ganks anymore where you would probably win anyway... It would have been better to buff the other ewar and leave the Falcon as it was... Falcon in lowsec can't participate in the fights anymore due gate guns and anything else, 100km instead 200 km sucks. Now all ewar is under 100 km and their tanks sucks and they are just pretty, expensive ships wich are useless in fleets. Force recons are usefull only in roaming gank gangs, wich would probably win the fight anyway. Now, all ewar sucks. Except ECM drones in 1 vs 1 sitations, they are still a good get away card if gank starts to fail. Rook is cool, but only in 1 vs 1, otherwise it just lacks the second ECM mod for it's opponent. As we all know, you have to have 4 racial ECM mods to shut down single ship. If you have 2 megathrons attacking your Rook, youre just plain dead since you have just one gallente ECM mod. But in the otherhand you have 3 damps in your Arazu and you still fail. Rapier? Killing you with target painters and webs? Pilgrim? EWAR is now just fail in most times. Ibis can pwn too, if you fly it with 60 man gang... But still, missiles are just pure awesome!
Lili Lu Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships	Posted - 2009.05.23 02:24:00 - [47] Originally by: Mystafyre Ooh shut up there. Falcon is usefull only in 3 to 1 ganks anymore where you would probably win anyway... It would have been better to buff the other ewar and leave the Falcon as it was... Falcon in lowsec can't participate in the fights anymore due gate guns and anything else, 100km instead 200 km sucks. Now all ewar is under 100 km and their tanks sucks and they are just pretty, expensive ships wich are useless in fleets. Force recons are usefull only in roaming gank gangs, wich would probably win the fight anyway. Now, all ewar sucks. Except ECM drones in 1 vs 1 sitations, they are still a good get away card if gank starts to fail. Rook is cool, but only in 1 vs 1, otherwise it just lacks the second ECM mod for it's opponent. As we all know, you have to have 4 racial ECM mods to shut down single ship. If you have 2 megathrons attacking your Rook, youre just plain dead since you have just one gallente ECM mod. But in the otherhand you have 3 damps in your Arazu and you still fail. Rapier? Killing you with target painters and webs? Pilgrim? EWAR is now just fail in most times. Ibis can pwn too, if you fly it with 60 man gang... But still, missiles are just pure awesome! Not arguing about recons. I agree it would have been better to buff the range on the TP, TD, and Damps to roughly equal that of the former Flacons (although in falloff for the other ew types). Would have made all recons great additions to sniper fleet battles and made things lots of fun. However, I agree with the nerf because now Caldari get to experience what other race recons have been. And yes missiles are good still in pve and even in pvp on specialized ships (like the cerb). Rockets blow and so do javelin variations of them and HAMs, but as I said every weapon system has some drawback when you get right down to it. Does not appear to me that we disagree that much, and the OP is wrong.
Xavier Sunder	Posted - 2009.05.23 03:50:00 - [48] I tend to go love-hate with Caldari and I don't think it's really as cut and dry as "they iz perfect" or "they iz suk." Tachyon's would be compared with Cruise missiles, not Siege launchers. And while it might be more requirements to get your hands on Tachs, to competently use Cruise Missiles you still need a crapload of skills. Guided Missile Precision, Target Navigation Prediction et al aren't required, but you're not going to hurt anything without them. Caldari also need drone skills. Hell, who doesn't? If you go rockets/torps you're incredibly reliant on them. Someone mentioned that when the whole community complains about something, it is itching for a nerf. In general I agree with that. MMORPG communities as a whole are usually pretty smart. When everyone is using one ship, more often than not that indicates imbalance. Yet the whole community seems to agree Caldari are pretty lousy at solo(ish) PvP and work best at support/backup/cheerleaders. That seems to indicate something is also awry. One of the great benefits of Caldari is their ability to swap in 100% different damage types. This is particularly what makes them so good in PvE. But nearly every ship has just a bonus to kinetic damage. If you take away that bonus, the damage on their ships is really lackluster, which kind of negates that ability (in PvP). The Raven class is one of the few that doesn't have that limitation. But doing, say, 25% more dmg to a target because it's their weak resist is completely negated by the fact you're doing 25% less dmg using a weapon type you're not skilled at. Compound that with taking 10 seconds to swap ammo. You think a Drake does crap dmg, try using some non-kinetic missiles. They could have 0 resists and an active tank will still out-repair you. I just kind of wonder what Caldari's niche is. They got some good ECM boats, but that's only a small small subset of their total ships, and you can't just make everything else junk because they have a 175 DPS Scorpion that can jam people like nobody's business. Missiles can get huge range, but it's mitigated by the fact they actually have to travel there. And we all know that mid slots are Caldari tank, so they can't easily fit points/speed without making themselves flimsier--which is why you see so few ppl using torps. Yeah, if you can get other people to target paint for you and point for you and maybe even provide an easy fleet warp location for you, you can get some really devestating dmg in, but what other race has to give up so much to use their short range weapons? You going to take a cap-hungry Raven and stick a MWD on it, painter, point? You better be able to kill that target fast fast because you're going to have like 30 seconds of junky defense or a small buffer. Caldari rock PvE. They are awesome at it. I'm amazed the Caldari Navy has any more missions to give out. But as a Caldari pilot, I get least scared when I see other Caldari ships pop on scan. And that goes from frigate to BS. The only thing that scares me is their ECM. But again, what about the rest of it?
Suprrrrhawt	Posted - 2009.05.23 05:17:00 - [49] Originally by: A Pacifist Caldari are fine, its shields that need some love tbh. This made me lol.
A Pacifist Republic University	Posted - 2009.05.23 05:30:00 - [50] Originally by: Suprrrrhawt Originally by: A Pacifist Caldari are fine, its shields that need some love tbh. This made me lol. Interesting you con't acknowledge that shields are undeniably the weakest tanking choice for PVP.
foobarx	Posted - 2009.05.23 05:42:00 - [51] I agree with nearly everyone else laughing at the OP: Try flying Minmatar, buddy. Once they zapped the phoon Minny BS became a waste of SP, at least for PvP. But one thing I do agree with - why in the world did they nerf the Scorpion? It already sucked so badly it's been months since I saw one. This was the biggest act of "AND STAY DOWN!" I've seen in balancing.
foobarx	Posted - 2009.05.23 05:47:00 - [52] Originally by: A Pacifist Originally by: Suprrrrhawt Originally by: A Pacifist Caldari are fine, its shields that need some love tbh. This made me lol. Interesting you con't acknowledge that shields are undeniably the weakest tanking choice for PVP. Not true. Big armor buffers are all the rage now, but shield tanking is still stronger than active armor tanking. Shields don't need to be buffed - fitting requirements on plates need to be increased.
Derek Sigres	Posted - 2009.05.23 05:50:00 - [53] Originally by: A Pacifist Originally by: Suprrrrhawt Originally by: A Pacifist Caldari are fine, its shields that need some love tbh. This made me lol. Interesting you con't acknowledge that shields are undeniably the weakest tanking choice for PVP. I'll humor this for a moment. First, there are precisely THREE options for tanking, corresponding to the three layers - armor, shield and hull. Of the three, I doubt that anyone would actually attempt to defend hull tanking as an intelligent choice on anything but a tiny handful of ships. I suspect this alone would mean that hull tanking is the worst possible choice. But, this still misses the crux of the argument. I had long heard the stories about how armor tanking was simply better than shield tanking without much explanation and never did quite understand why. Turns out, when I started solo PVP was alive and well and the difficulty of fitting tank AND tackle meant that caldari ships were often sorely lacking. But these days, with greater reliance on gangs, many of the inherent problems with the shield tank have gone away. Many shield tanked ships can generate a fully competative tank while delivering adequate firepower and often carry the basic necessities for their own support (target paints, webs, warp jammers, mwd or what have you, not all at the same time of course). As it stands, each tanking strategy has it's problems and advantages, and on the balance they seem to be more or less even as far as I'm concerned.
foobarx	Posted - 2009.05.23 05:56:00 - [54] Oh, and by the way I have two words for everyone complaining about ECM nerf: Target Painter.
Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.05.23 06:09:00 - [55] Originally by: fuxinos Originally by: Furb Killer Invuln field II: tactical shield manipulation IV Large shield extender II: Shield upgrades IV Shield HP: Shield management IV So to be succesfull at shield tanking you need 3 skills at lvl 4 (sure if you want active tank you need more, but an active tank really isnt needed on 90% of the ships). So how exactly do shield tanks require much SP? If you summarize it like this, Armor tanking only needs Hull Upgrades 5 and youre done. Who give a damn? It's not as if we were speaking about millions of SP, and shield tanking IS better than armor tanking. ------------------------------------------
Suprrrrhawt	Posted - 2009.05.23 06:21:00 - [56] Edited by: Suprrrrhawt on 23/05/2009 06:26:10 Edited by: Suprrrrhawt on 23/05/2009 06:25:27 Originally by: A Pacifist Originally by: Suprrrrhawt Originally by: A Pacifist Caldari are fine, its shields that need some love tbh. This made me lol. Interesting you con't acknowledge that shields are undeniably the weakest tanking choice for PVP. Sure, they may not be as great of buffer tanks, but active? It's no contest. Sure, you may have to give up some tank to tackle, but hardly anyone solos these days, and all your armor tanked buddies will surely have point and web. Even better? Shield tanks don't have to sacrifice damage, where armor tanks do. That is the trade off. Active shield tank is FAR superior to active armor, but their buffer is slightly lacking.
A Pacifist Republic University	Posted - 2009.05.23 09:46:00 - [57] Edited by: A Pacifist on 23/05/2009 09:49:30 Originally by: foobarx Originally by: A Pacifist Originally by: Suprrrrhawt Originally by: A Pacifist Caldari are fine, its shields that need some love tbh. This made me lol. Interesting you con't acknowledge that shields are undeniably the weakest tanking choice for PVP. Not true. Big armor buffers are all the rage now, but shield tanking is still stronger than active armor tanking. Shields don't need to be buffed - fitting requirements on plates need to be increased. Yes this is true. My issue is more fleet pvp, RR gangs exclude shields almost completely. As I understand it this is because of better natural resists and lag doesn't affect armour RR as much as shield - since fleet members have your whole shield capacity to lock you if you are primaried. Shield buffer tank is fine for most small gang scenarios. A script for shield hardeners that trades increased resistance for decreased passive regen/shield boost amount might be a beneficial change without hurting armour too much.
Pater Peccavi Minmatar Cadre Assault Force	Posted - 2009.05.23 13:06:00 - [58] Originally by: Lego Maniac STOP, NERF CALDARI is that what this thread is about? That's how I read it, since punctuation mistakes are pretty typical online. Originally by: hi go Let the human be very annoyed! Another person is very repugnant!
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.23 13:57:00 - [59] The reasons RR gangs are normally armor has basicly nothing to do with your reasons. It is just because RR armor stuff is easier to fit (cpu reqs for shield transporters is horrible, allthough still many shield tanked ships can fit them without too much issues), and because a majority of the ships used are armor tanked ships, so the RR'ing is also armor. But shield tanks arent worse. You can boost shield tanks to be better than armor, and then suddenly everyone will start switching to shield tanked RR gangs, and now not only everyone will shield tank because it is needed for RR, but also because it is just better than armor tanks. While right now they are pretty much equal.
Hadrian Zorn	Posted - 2009.05.23 15:05:00 - [60] Of course, shield tanking isn't bad per se. It is only bad on Caldari ships. Your advantages from shield tanking don't help Caldari ships. You should expect to be faster, using shield buffer. Not the case for Caldari. Lowest base speed and highest mass of their class. Then of course you should do tons of damage, because you can fit more damagemods. Not the case once again, because most Caldari ships have low basedamage. An armortanker with 2 damagemods usually outdamages its Caldari cousin with 3 damagemods by a healthy margin.

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