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DeFood	Posted - 2004.09.08 08:30:00 - [1] I feel it is time to revisit an oft discussed topic - that of ship collisions. Because the collision logic in this game is screwey! I beg CCP to fix the collision logic with an eye to improving these situations :- 1. Launching from stations. Many minmatar stations have elaborate - and rather long - launch tubes. Not only are the launch tubes smaller than most battleships, some cruisers dont even fit. Sometimes in fact the game will choose a launch vector that isnt even IN one of the tubes!? The nett result is slower ships (Still) suddenly notice theyre embedded in a station, panic, and get further embedded in station structure. 2. Autopilot near stations. Activating autopilot near gallente and caldari station models seems fraught with danger. Once youre clear of a minmatar or amarr station the general spheircal nature of the thing tends to mean you can get around it, but if your autopilot destination is on the other side of the station, with the more box like station models the ship will turn around too quickly, and fly smack into a wall loosing all velocity in the process so it cant even "bounce" along the wall for a bit and eventually get a clear run to warp. 3. Warping into Asteroid Belts at 20/30/60 km. Is fraught with danger. Especially in the more unmined belts where there are huuuge bloody roids all over, it is easy to get stuck in one of the big ones. Travelling 30m/s when you desperately need to be going MWD speeds to keep optimal vs a rat spawn does not for a fun time make. 4. Approaching a stargate you will frequently encounter other ships going either slightly faster or slowwer. Because everyone seems to exit warp at exactly the same point this all but guarantees a collision. Where "collision" hear means that theres a huge ****ing clear distance visible between the colliding ships, but nonetheless they both start to jiggle and slow to a crawl. 5. Parking near other ships, with drones. Specifically mining ops where a corp might be sharing access to a single jetcan, hence are all within 1.5km of each other. Battlehsips do NOT project an aura of majesty when they start doing mad tumbling spins avoiding absolutely nothing at all! Ironically in the process the act of spinning around smashes parts of the ship through nearby ships and asteroids that it was otherwise not hitting! PLEASE MAKE IT STOP! 7. Planets. Sure the warp effect makes ships pass right though solid objects. That said - how hard would it be to plot a curving (warp) course around moons and planets at least! 8. Sometimes it just looks ugly! Especially with gang warps. Ive seen some "Event" fraps movies where an entire fleet exits warp - AT THE EXACT SAME POINT. A huge blob of 20 megathons and armageddons forming a huge spiky ball does NOT make a good advertizing image to show my friends how cool this game is.
DeFood	Posted - 2004.09.08 08:30:00 - [2] I feel it is time to revisit an oft discussed topic - that of ship collisions. Because the collision logic in this game is screwey! I beg CCP to fix the collision logic with an eye to improving these situations :- 1. Launching from stations. Many minmatar stations have elaborate - and rather long - launch tubes. Not only are the launch tubes smaller than most battleships, some cruisers dont even fit. Sometimes in fact the game will choose a launch vector that isnt even IN one of the tubes!? The nett result is slower ships (Still) suddenly notice theyre embedded in a station, panic, and get further embedded in station structure. 2. Autopilot near stations. Activating autopilot near gallente and caldari station models seems fraught with danger. Once youre clear of a minmatar or amarr station the general spheircal nature of the thing tends to mean you can get around it, but if your autopilot destination is on the other side of the station, with the more box like station models the ship will turn around too quickly, and fly smack into a wall loosing all velocity in the process so it cant even "bounce" along the wall for a bit and eventually get a clear run to warp. 3. Warping into Asteroid Belts at 20/30/60 km. Is fraught with danger. Especially in the more unmined belts where there are huuuge bloody roids all over, it is easy to get stuck in one of the big ones. Travelling 30m/s when you desperately need to be going MWD speeds to keep optimal vs a rat spawn does not for a fun time make. 4. Approaching a stargate you will frequently encounter other ships going either slightly faster or slowwer. Because everyone seems to exit warp at exactly the same point this all but guarantees a collision. Where "collision" hear means that theres a huge ****ing clear distance visible between the colliding ships, but nonetheless they both start to jiggle and slow to a crawl. 5. Parking near other ships, with drones. Specifically mining ops where a corp might be sharing access to a single jetcan, hence are all within 1.5km of each other. Battlehsips do NOT project an aura of majesty when they start doing mad tumbling spins avoiding absolutely nothing at all! Ironically in the process the act of spinning around smashes parts of the ship through nearby ships and asteroids that it was otherwise not hitting! PLEASE MAKE IT STOP! 7. Planets. Sure the warp effect makes ships pass right though solid objects. That said - how hard would it be to plot a curving (warp) course around moons and planets at least! 8. Sometimes it just looks ugly! Especially with gang warps. Ive seen some "Event" fraps movies where an entire fleet exits warp - AT THE EXACT SAME POINT. A huge blob of 20 megathons and armageddons forming a huge spiky ball does NOT make a good advertizing image to show my friends how cool this game is.
meowcat	Posted - 2004.09.08 08:39:00 - [3] Edited by: meowcat on 08/09/2004 08:41:41 seconded all of the above problems serve only to reduce the 'immersion' add my own personal pet hate (only related to collision logic if you've read the camera drone backstory) - zooming of camera to a point where you can see inside the ship model edit: i seem to have forgotten how to spell
meowcat	Posted - 2004.09.08 08:39:00 - [4] Edited by: meowcat on 08/09/2004 08:41:41 seconded all of the above problems serve only to reduce the 'immersion' add my own personal pet hate (only related to collision logic if you've read the camera drone backstory) - zooming of camera to a point where you can see inside the ship model edit: i seem to have forgotten how to spell
Miso	Posted - 2004.09.08 08:40:00 - [5] Agreed. The collision detection leaves alot to be desired. I lost a kessie last night due to bouncing off a roid during PvP: slowed me down and I got creamed with a missile. Annoying, but not the end of the world. I'd rather lose my ship to the fight though, rather than to flaky collision detection. -------------------------------------------- Dead
Miso	Posted - 2004.09.08 08:40:00 - [6] Agreed. The collision detection leaves alot to be desired. I lost a kessie last night due to bouncing off a roid during PvP: slowed me down and I got creamed with a missile. Annoying, but not the end of the world. I'd rather lose my ship to the fight though, rather than to flaky collision detection. -------------------------------------------- Dead
Seleene	Posted - 2004.09.08 08:43:00 - [7] *SIGNED!* - T2 Weapons Testing in progress! Volunteer today!
Seleene	Posted - 2004.09.08 08:43:00 - [8] *SIGNED!* - T2 Weapons Testing in progress! Volunteer today!
Sybylle	Posted - 2004.09.08 09:14:00 - [9] /me agree on everything here. Not only immersion is borked, but also it's dangerous and frustrating regarding collisions with other objects during action. Planets : I'd rather prefer a double warp (one to get up or down the planet, and one to get near the gate/station) than passing through it. Stations : make them bigger maybe for tunnels, but anyway, the same double-waap system can be applied (up or down, and then to destination). Exiting station should be boosted, like if the ship was catapulted out of the docking bay. For instance, boost it to 1000m/s for 3 seconds and decrease to base speed afterwards. Warp to object : more options please ! 60 km is not enought ! Add 80 at least. Also orbiting isn't enought. Making orbit avalaible also for 40/50/60 kms would be cool ^^ Collisions with objects : reduce ships collision bubble !!! Stop the dancing mining party fest !!! >:D Something needs to be done before shiva's flight formations... Collisions are too frequent between ships at many levels when more than 2/3 ships warp at the same destination. Curveing a bit the exit of warp would help. Adding restrictions to ships while stopped would help mining parties. For instance, a battleship shouldn't be pushed by an indy so easily, neither by a drone (lol). It shouldn't move at all. The pathfiding needs some tweaking... When an indy makes an approach on a can, the path should avoid the other ships on its road, using the space as it is meant to be used...Get upward or downward to reach the can without crashing into a roid or a ship or anything... PS : on a side note, make available global weapon type change on turrets...That'd be very cool (\_/) (O.o) (> <)=Oveur (proof) "Jumping 50 systems I can like, have sex 150 times during that period"
Sybylle	Posted - 2004.09.08 09:14:00 - [10] /me agree on everything here. Not only immersion is borked, but also it's dangerous and frustrating regarding collisions with other objects during action. Planets : I'd rather prefer a double warp (one to get up or down the planet, and one to get near the gate/station) than passing through it. Stations : make them bigger maybe for tunnels, but anyway, the same double-waap system can be applied (up or down, and then to destination). Exiting station should be boosted, like if the ship was catapulted out of the docking bay. For instance, boost it to 1000m/s for 3 seconds and decrease to base speed afterwards. Warp to object : more options please ! 60 km is not enought ! Add 80 at least. Also orbiting isn't enought. Making orbit avalaible also for 40/50/60 kms would be cool ^^ Collisions with objects : reduce ships collision bubble !!! Stop the dancing mining party fest !!! >:D Something needs to be done before shiva's flight formations... Collisions are too frequent between ships at many levels when more than 2/3 ships warp at the same destination. Curveing a bit the exit of warp would help. Adding restrictions to ships while stopped would help mining parties. For instance, a battleship shouldn't be pushed by an indy so easily, neither by a drone (lol). It shouldn't move at all. The pathfiding needs some tweaking... When an indy makes an approach on a can, the path should avoid the other ships on its road, using the space as it is meant to be used...Get upward or downward to reach the can without crashing into a roid or a ship or anything... PS : on a side note, make available global weapon type change on turrets...That'd be very cool (\_/) (O.o) (> <)=Oveur (proof) "Jumping 50 systems I can like, have sex 150 times during that period"
Wanoah	Posted - 2004.09.08 12:08:00 - [11] Agreed! A Mammoth/Iteron Mk 5/<insert battleship or indy of choice here> should not bounce off drones! Nearly lost an indy to baby rats at a gate when someone had parked their indy right at the point where you exit warp and I couldn't get unstuck.
Wanoah	Posted - 2004.09.08 12:08:00 - [12] Agreed! A Mammoth/Iteron Mk 5/<insert battleship or indy of choice here> should not bounce off drones! Nearly lost an indy to baby rats at a gate when someone had parked their indy right at the point where you exit warp and I couldn't get unstuck.
Wild Rho	Posted - 2004.09.08 13:59:00 - [13] Agreed I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it...
Wild Rho	Posted - 2004.09.08 13:59:00 - [14] Agreed I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it...
Ulendar	Posted - 2004.09.08 14:31:00 - [15] 1) This seems more of a GFX and design issue doesn't it? You're only getting stuck to the station because of its shape and features. Some station would need part remoddeled to get a better effect. The station remoddeling seems very doable although it is i think hardly a priority (if it even makes the list). 2)I guess a solution would be to make a 'smart' autopilot that goes around any huge structure to avoid colision. Seems tricky though, i gues the player will just have to handle the smart part :p 3) Better collision physics could handle this. Collision physics that actually collide instead of just ejecting you with a rubber band effect. This would make bumping into something much more rough. I don't see its a thing that can be easily fixed though, you're talking a compleet physics overhaul and physics engines aren't standard stuff to start with. EVE physics resemble an underwater physics much more then space physics... 4) higher poly collision boxes could prolly handle this. This would also mean more resource comsumption of your PC and possibly more lag when alot of ships are in the same grid... 5) Yah this is pretty ghey. It seems the drones are capable of moving way tomuch weight, i'm not sure what causes this but there is definitly a physical atribute on the drones that makes no sence at all. Should get fixed, the ships going through other ships and stuff aint so easy though, see point 3 7) probably alot harder than you think. It's also 'unrealistic'. I boost to achieve FTL speeds would make a ship unmaneuverable. Also the ships in EVE aren't maneuverable enough to warp in arches around stuff like moons and planets. Whats happens if your at a planet and go into warp and your path leads you straight through the planet? The warp would have to curve you around it at nutter speeds, you just can't make that kind of curve at that speed, the only way to pull it off is to reduce the warp speed when 'curving'...this may lead to looooooooong warps. I'm not even gonna think about what happens if you warp in an asteroid field and a couple dousen roids are blocking your path O_O The only way to stop ships warping though planets is to check the positioning of each planet and make sure its not in a the warppath between any major object in that system...then do the same for the f0cking billboards!! 8) This is weird... The effect shows correct for the people warping but the people who see the ships come out of warp see them all sort of spawning from the same location. I'm sure its an easy fix... PS: After 5 comes 6...just thought you should know in case you missed that class in kindergarden Originally by: cashman It's time for Eris to get a clue. CCP should make a statement about this. It's the exact same things as what Zombie did, you may not attack in "safe-areas" (empire/within sentry range) without loosing your ship.
Ulendar	Posted - 2004.09.08 14:31:00 - [16] 1) This seems more of a GFX and design issue doesn't it? You're only getting stuck to the station because of its shape and features. Some station would need part remoddeled to get a better effect. The station remoddeling seems very doable although it is i think hardly a priority (if it even makes the list). 2)I guess a solution would be to make a 'smart' autopilot that goes around any huge structure to avoid colision. Seems tricky though, i gues the player will just have to handle the smart part :p 3) Better collision physics could handle this. Collision physics that actually collide instead of just ejecting you with a rubber band effect. This would make bumping into something much more rough. I don't see its a thing that can be easily fixed though, you're talking a compleet physics overhaul and physics engines aren't standard stuff to start with. EVE physics resemble an underwater physics much more then space physics... 4) higher poly collision boxes could prolly handle this. This would also mean more resource comsumption of your PC and possibly more lag when alot of ships are in the same grid... 5) Yah this is pretty ghey. It seems the drones are capable of moving way tomuch weight, i'm not sure what causes this but there is definitly a physical atribute on the drones that makes no sence at all. Should get fixed, the ships going through other ships and stuff aint so easy though, see point 3 7) probably alot harder than you think. It's also 'unrealistic'. I boost to achieve FTL speeds would make a ship unmaneuverable. Also the ships in EVE aren't maneuverable enough to warp in arches around stuff like moons and planets. Whats happens if your at a planet and go into warp and your path leads you straight through the planet? The warp would have to curve you around it at nutter speeds, you just can't make that kind of curve at that speed, the only way to pull it off is to reduce the warp speed when 'curving'...this may lead to looooooooong warps. I'm not even gonna think about what happens if you warp in an asteroid field and a couple dousen roids are blocking your path O_O The only way to stop ships warping though planets is to check the positioning of each planet and make sure its not in a the warppath between any major object in that system...then do the same for the f0cking billboards!! 8) This is weird... The effect shows correct for the people warping but the people who see the ships come out of warp see them all sort of spawning from the same location. I'm sure its an easy fix... PS: After 5 comes 6...just thought you should know in case you missed that class in kindergarden Originally by: cashman It's time for Eris to get a clue. CCP should make a statement about this. It's the exact same things as what Zombie did, you may not attack in "safe-areas" (empire/within sentry range) without loosing your ship.
Malv	Posted - 2004.09.08 15:01:00 - [17] Originally by: DeFood I feel it is time to revisit an oft discussed topic - that of ship collisions. Because the collision logic in this game is screwey! I beg CCP to fix the collision logic with an eye to improving these situations :- 1. Launching from stations. Many minmatar stations have elaborate - and rather long - launch tubes. Not only are the launch tubes smaller than most battleships, some cruisers dont even fit. Sometimes in fact the game will choose a launch vector that isnt even IN one of the tubes!? The nett result is slower ships (Still) suddenly notice theyre embedded in a station, panic, and get further embedded in station structure. 2. Autopilot near stations. Activating autopilot near gallente and caldari station models seems fraught with danger. Once youre clear of a minmatar or amarr station the general spheircal nature of the thing tends to mean you can get around it, but if your autopilot destination is on the other side of the station, with the more box like station models the ship will turn around too quickly, and fly smack into a wall loosing all velocity in the process so it cant even "bounce" along the wall for a bit and eventually get a clear run to warp. 3. Warping into Asteroid Belts at 20/30/60 km. Is fraught with danger. Especially in the more unmined belts where there are huuuge bloody roids all over, it is easy to get stuck in one of the big ones. Travelling 30m/s when you desperately need to be going MWD speeds to keep optimal vs a rat spawn does not for a fun time make. 4. Approaching a stargate you will frequently encounter other ships going either slightly faster or slowwer. Because everyone seems to exit warp at exactly the same point this all but guarantees a collision. Where "collision" hear means that theres a huge ****ing clear distance visible between the colliding ships, but nonetheless they both start to jiggle and slow to a crawl. 5. Parking near other ships, with drones. Specifically mining ops where a corp might be sharing access to a single jetcan, hence are all within 1.5km of each other. Battlehsips do NOT project an aura of majesty when they start doing mad tumbling spins avoiding absolutely nothing at all! Ironically in the process the act of spinning around smashes parts of the ship through nearby ships and asteroids that it was otherwise not hitting! PLEASE MAKE IT STOP! 7. Planets. Sure the warp effect makes ships pass right though solid objects. That said - how hard would it be to plot a curving (warp) course around moons and planets at least! 8. Sometimes it just looks ugly! Especially with gang warps. Ive seen some "Event" fraps movies where an entire fleet exits warp - AT THE EXACT SAME POINT. A huge blob of 20 megathons and armageddons forming a huge spiky ball does NOT make a good advertizing image to show my friends how cool this game is. Good points, but a lot of them are rather petty. There are a lot of other stronger issues that need to be addressed IMHO, although I would like too see ships not fly through planets. Its kinda disturbing.
Malv	Posted - 2004.09.08 15:01:00 - [18] Originally by: DeFood I feel it is time to revisit an oft discussed topic - that of ship collisions. Because the collision logic in this game is screwey! I beg CCP to fix the collision logic with an eye to improving these situations :- 1. Launching from stations. Many minmatar stations have elaborate - and rather long - launch tubes. Not only are the launch tubes smaller than most battleships, some cruisers dont even fit. Sometimes in fact the game will choose a launch vector that isnt even IN one of the tubes!? The nett result is slower ships (Still) suddenly notice theyre embedded in a station, panic, and get further embedded in station structure. 2. Autopilot near stations. Activating autopilot near gallente and caldari station models seems fraught with danger. Once youre clear of a minmatar or amarr station the general spheircal nature of the thing tends to mean you can get around it, but if your autopilot destination is on the other side of the station, with the more box like station models the ship will turn around too quickly, and fly smack into a wall loosing all velocity in the process so it cant even "bounce" along the wall for a bit and eventually get a clear run to warp. 3. Warping into Asteroid Belts at 20/30/60 km. Is fraught with danger. Especially in the more unmined belts where there are huuuge bloody roids all over, it is easy to get stuck in one of the big ones. Travelling 30m/s when you desperately need to be going MWD speeds to keep optimal vs a rat spawn does not for a fun time make. 4. Approaching a stargate you will frequently encounter other ships going either slightly faster or slowwer. Because everyone seems to exit warp at exactly the same point this all but guarantees a collision. Where "collision" hear means that theres a huge ****ing clear distance visible between the colliding ships, but nonetheless they both start to jiggle and slow to a crawl. 5. Parking near other ships, with drones. Specifically mining ops where a corp might be sharing access to a single jetcan, hence are all within 1.5km of each other. Battlehsips do NOT project an aura of majesty when they start doing mad tumbling spins avoiding absolutely nothing at all! Ironically in the process the act of spinning around smashes parts of the ship through nearby ships and asteroids that it was otherwise not hitting! PLEASE MAKE IT STOP! 7. Planets. Sure the warp effect makes ships pass right though solid objects. That said - how hard would it be to plot a curving (warp) course around moons and planets at least! 8. Sometimes it just looks ugly! Especially with gang warps. Ive seen some "Event" fraps movies where an entire fleet exits warp - AT THE EXACT SAME POINT. A huge blob of 20 megathons and armageddons forming a huge spiky ball does NOT make a good advertizing image to show my friends how cool this game is. Good points, but a lot of them are rather petty. There are a lot of other stronger issues that need to be addressed IMHO, although I would like too see ships not fly through planets. Its kinda disturbing.
Ephemeron	Posted - 2004.09.08 16:38:00 - [19] current collision system is very primitive and thus.. least laggy Trying to solve for any of the points mentioned above will increase game lag. What is more important to you?
Ephemeron	Posted - 2004.09.08 16:38:00 - [20] current collision system is very primitive and thus.. least laggy Trying to solve for any of the points mentioned above will increase game lag. What is more important to you?
Dred 'Morte	Posted - 2004.09.08 16:55:00 - [21] Physics or No Lag? let me think... PHYSICS!!!!! i wont lag anything u dumb besides what has lag of bad? it can make ur ship die? how many ships have been lost to physics problem? LOTS OF THEM, more than to lag.
Dred 'Morte	Posted - 2004.09.08 16:55:00 - [22] Physics or No Lag? let me think... PHYSICS!!!!! i wont lag anything u dumb besides what has lag of bad? it can make ur ship die? how many ships have been lost to physics problem? LOTS OF THEM, more than to lag.
Xavier Arron	Posted - 2004.09.08 17:06:00 - [23] I agree, collision system needs some luving, but due to all the lag, its extreamly difficult to get collison detection to look good. Hence why I suspect ships are made to slow down when near other objects, and the collison hulls are so large.
Xavier Arron	Posted - 2004.09.08 17:06:00 - [24] I agree, collision system needs some luving, but due to all the lag, its extreamly difficult to get collison detection to look good. Hence why I suspect ships are made to slow down when near other objects, and the collison hulls are so large.
LOLZ	Posted - 2004.09.08 17:09:00 - [25] aparently in one of the early stages of beta stations were 4x as big as they are now. CCP decided to make them smaller and messed up the collision detection. thats what i heard anyway.
LOLZ	Posted - 2004.09.08 17:09:00 - [26] aparently in one of the early stages of beta stations were 4x as big as they are now. CCP decided to make them smaller and messed up the collision detection. thats what i heard anyway.
Rhia	Posted - 2004.09.08 18:29:00 - [27] /sign a few patches will work.
Rhia	Posted - 2004.09.08 18:29:00 - [28] /sign a few patches will work.
ActiveX	Posted - 2004.09.08 18:39:00 - [29] Signed ____________ Sex / Rank 9 / SP: 1280 of 2304000
ActiveX	Posted - 2004.09.08 18:39:00 - [30] Signed ____________ Sex / Rank 9 / SP: 1280 of 2304000

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