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Ex Mudder
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.05.22 22:55:00 -
[1]
Rather than trying to nerf missions, why not make Empire more a more expensive place to live?
My suggestion: Increase the price of Empire station jobs. Say to 10k isk/hr instead of 1k isk/hr.
It will make POSs more competitive, and will be easier to code than dynamic pricing. Plus it makes a nice ISK sink. And best of all, we can all cherish the emo-rage carebear tears.
Anyone have any other ways to suck empire carebears dry?
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Kobushi
OCForums
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Posted - 2009.05.23 00:14:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Kobushi on 23/05/2009 00:14:35
the problem is not empire vs the rest is high density vs low/no density population centers...I do agree that the high density hubs are getting somewhat problematic in some aspects so here is my counter proposal, instead of plain nerfing empire why no just make NPC services pricing dynamic like the price of HQ/offices, if the service is used at x% or less prices go down, if usage goes above y% then it goes up over time and the value in between x% and y% prices would be stable...
That way the overcrowded centers would really become expensive and force a part of that population to move to lower prices areas. A few exceptions would be needed like keeping school systems at a flat rate for new players and possibly NPC 0.0.
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Jade Mitch
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.05.23 01:56:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Jade Mitch on 23/05/2009 01:58:21
A 10x rate hike on production would make emo-rage carebears out of everyone.
Dynamic pricing for production runs based on usage is a much better idea. It would give players an incentive to spread out without halting the Eve economy. |
Xorth Adimus
Caldari
The Perfect Storm
Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2009.05.23 07:06:00 -
[4]
Simple make every ship larger then a cruiser/industrial only producable at a pos.
May as well do something similar for reseach (mostly done at pos's now anyway due to slots all being taken) as well as refining.
NPC stations give too much away for free/low cost and it will get people more used to working together in corps (the main point of eve) and make pos's in particular in low sec (cheaper charter) and 0.0 gateway pos's (free to run other then fuel) much more important and disputed! (the fun bit of eve!) as well as adding traffic to these areas. 
Obviously some other changes would be required to make such ship manufacture pos's viable without destroying the market from cost and logistics (making them the only way to get 100%eff on refine and production with the best fitted (expensive) pos would help as would high production speed as well as produce more lovely risk vs reward logic).
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Ex Mudder
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.05.23 07:09:00 -
[5]
I happen to agree with both of you. My concern is that if we wait for dynamic pricing, like they have for rentals in stations, we'll be waiting forever because it's not a high priority.
Increase Empire station ME research and manufacturing and the rest to 10k an hour, and the screaming will make adding dynamic pricing a much higher priority :)
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2009.05.23 07:17:00 -
[6]
I'd take the time and trouble to explain how stupid this proposal is from an economic standpoint, but when you start out by calling anyone who doesn't play the game precisely your way, and might actually have an interest in economics & industry, a carebear, plus imply that somehow the goal is to upset people rather than actually benefit the game, I don't feel really inclined to waste my time.
Maybe Venkul Mul will catch sight of this, and do his usual terse explanation of why it will achieve nothing other than economic upset.
Learn economics, pay attention to the game, and then you might be qualified to actually comment on the subject area.
___
My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties...
Environmental Effects
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Abuta Beki
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Posted - 2009.05.23 07:54:00 -
[7]
From an economic and social point of view, living in Empire space should indeed be a lot more expensive than living in the backwater regions of the outer rim. That is how it has always been, because civilization costs lots and lots of money.
This is never without reward, though. Eventually it means that people living in the heart of civilization have to pay for many benefits, that those outside do not have to pay for, yet if those outside want these benefits anyway, they have to pay ten times and more for them.
Being away from civilization eliminates mandatory cost of living, as long as you do not need anything special.
As long as something like that is implemented in a credible way, however, you would probably not like the results. It would make your hated carebears cry, only to make you cry even harder yourself.
How could something like that credibly look like? Take insurance for example. Empire is civilized and regulated. Have each and every ship require mandatory insurance, in order to undock, resulting in regular annual cost for each and every ship someone owns and wants to fly. At the same time, make Empire insurances invalid outside Empire, double lowsec insurance costs and remove insurances from 0.0 altogether, representing that no sane insurance company whatsoever would insure the ships of warring hobo militias. 
Just an example for how classic mechanisms of civilization end up screwing everyone over. 
If you were looking for other means of sucking empire carebears, maybe you should ask some of them out for a date? 
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Meniria
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Posted - 2009.05.23 09:26:00 -
[8]
 Originally by: Xorth Adimus
Simple make every ship larger then a cruiser/industrial only producable at a pos.
And limit their production purely to people with Freighters?
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Roland Deschaines
Minmatar
Esquires Of Questionable Intention
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Posted - 2009.05.23 10:02:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
when you start out by calling anyone who doesn't play the game precisely your way, and might actually have an interest in economics & industry, a carebear, plus imply that somehow the goal is to upset people rather than actually benefit the game, I don't feel really inclined to waste my time.
/thread
Regardless of your proposal, nobody will back it when you say it's meant to upset half of the EvE population.
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LiBressa
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Posted - 2009.05.23 11:21:00 -
[10]
How about basing missions on supply and demand instead of how quickly people do them.
You don't see companys paying lots for someone to do a job that someone else will do for 1/2 the price.
What you'll find is that where there are lots of people running missions the lp will be worth almost nothing and the payment will drop to great lows as well. Where as in a system where very few people run missions the rewards will go up exponentially.
This will do a variety of things....
1) Mission runners will scatter through empire (more of an even distribution instead of clusters)
2) More people will venture to low sec as the risk vs reward will be better balanced.
This isn't nerfing... it's dynamic balancing.
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Hariya
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Posted - 2009.05.23 18:24:00 -
[11]
Empire already is more expensive in the sense that your income is lowered by being there.
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Sep'Shoni
Gallente
Carpe Diem inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.23 19:27:00 -
[12]
Do you realize that if you increase my build costs x10 I'm going to do the same thing to the cost of your ammo, modules, and ships to cover the expense? Is dramatically raising the costs of everything an industrial character ever touches your goal?
Sep'Shoni
Mining ore and making stuff. Its not just a job, its an obsession. |
Poena Loveless
Minmatar
Dawn of a new Empire
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Posted - 2009.05.23 22:24:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Poena Loveless on 23/05/2009 22:25:16
OR
Just have the npc corps act like every other corporation would, increase cost as demand increases.
So when depending on the level of the queue (willing buyers) the price increases to the point where its almost prohibitive at extreme queue volumes.
edit: The same thing already happens to trade goods, so its not like its a new idea.
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Charlie chop
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Posted - 2009.05.24 00:33:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Charlie chop on 24/05/2009 00:34:46
Originally by: Sep'Shoni
Do you realize that if you increase my build costs x10 I'm going to do the same thing to the cost of your ammo, modules, and ships to cover the expense? Is dramatically raising the costs of everything an industrial character ever touches your goal?
its obvius he cant realize that. he thinks nothing he makes/uses depends on "carebears" so he simply doesnt know about the effects.
if jobs cost 10x then prices will raise the same why? cuz its easier to raise prices than to move to lowsec
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Ex Mudder
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.06.03 07:39:00 -
[15]
Increasing the price of jobs in empire 10 fold would not increase the price of everything in empire by 10, just the price of installation, which is currently negligable. 1500 run ammo takes what? 3 days to produce 150,000 rounds? Currently cost of production is 72k, or half an isk per round. What would you say is more reasonable? At 10x as much, it would increase the price of ammo by 5 isk per round. At 5k per hour, it would increase the price of ammo by 2 isk per round.
Hardly devastating. And it would not impact the price of ammo produced in an Ammunition Assembly Array. Nor would it impact Nullsec production costs, except in NPC stations.
To use another example, a Raven takes 4 hours to build. Now that means the cost of producing a raven in empire stations is a whole 5,000 ISK! My god, if I have my way, it will cost 50,000 ISK! For a 85 million ISK Battleship! The Horror!
Stop whining you empire pansies. You've had it too good for too long. Yes, the entire point of this idea is to make empire more expensive to live in, plex in, mine in, mission in, and get ganked in. Yes, I expect you to pass higher prices to your consumers. That's the entire point of my idea - to implement an empire wide ISK sink.
I would of course prefer a dynamic system where the price of empire station services varied by the demand. But if that were easy to code, CCP would have done it already. Increasing installation and hourly cost to 10k isk won't destroy the world, it will just give POS and Outpost production a chance to compete.
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Fille Balle
Dissolution Of Eternity
Ethikos Trade Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.03 09:26:00 -
[16]
Yes, because this will solve... what exactly? The problem with highsec is certainly mission runners and all those trillions their making on a monthly basis, and those filthy rich industrialists! OMG! No one should be allowed to be rich in empire!
Wrong! Industrialists in general aren't that rich, and mission runners most certainly aren't either. Most mission runners I know are always low on cash because they spend it all on expensive gadgets. That come from... *drum-roll* you guessed it: 0.0 *high-hat*
The people that actually ARE rich, are the marketeers. What you're proposing won't affect them in the slightest. It will affect everyone else, that isn't rich. In other words, what you're proposing is going to make life harder for casual pvp'ers, and force regular pvp'ers to grind more.
Great idea.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.03 09:50:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 03/06/2009 09:52:43
Originally by: Ex Mudder
Rather than trying to nerf missions, why not make Empire more a more expensive place to live?
My suggestion: Increase the price of Empire station jobs. Say to 10k isk/hr instead of 1k isk/hr.
It will make POSs more competitive, and will be easier to code than dynamic pricing. Plus it makes a nice ISK sink. And best of all, we can all cherish the emo-rage carebear tears.
Anyone have any other ways to suck empire carebears dry?
So you target are industrialist?
Or you think that your change will increase all the prices?
Higher construction price -> moved to finished item sell price and to the final consumer?
Originally by: Jade Mitch
A 10x rate hike on production would make emo-rage carebears out of everyone.
Dynamic pricing for production runs based on usage is a much better idea. It would give players an incentive to spread out without halting the Eve economy.
x10 increase in hourly construction fees will not make anyone emo-rage.
A dynamic system could make someone emo rage in systems where you have a small number of productions slots.
Guess what regions have a low total number of production slots? 0.0 NPC regions.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.03 09:57:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Ex Mudder
Increase Empire station ME research and manufacturing and the rest to 10k an hour, and the screaming will make adding dynamic pricing a much higher priority :)
Wrong.
Learn how dynamic pricing work.
Simplest way: check the price of a corp hangar in Jita 4-4 (some hundred millions) and one in a unused station (5.000 isk).
That is a x20.000 or more increase.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.03 10:18:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Ex Mudder
Increasing the price of jobs in empire 10 fold would not increase the price of everything in empire by 10, just the price of installation, which is currently negligable. 1500 run ammo takes what? 3 days to produce 150,000 rounds? Currently cost of production is 72k, or half an isk per round. What would you say is more reasonable? At 10x as much, it would increase the price of ammo by 5 isk per round. At 5k per hour, it would increase the price of ammo by 2 isk per round.
Hardly devastating. And it would not impact the price of ammo produced in an Ammunition Assembly Array. Nor would it impact Nullsec production costs, except in NPC stations.
To use another example, a Raven takes 4 hours to build. Now that means the cost of producing a raven in empire stations is a whole 5,000 ISK! My god, if I have my way, it will cost 50,000 ISK! For a 85 million ISK Battleship! The Horror!
Stop whining you empire pansies. You've had it too good for too long. Yes, the entire point of this idea is to make empire more expensive to live in, plex in, mine in, mission in, and get ganked in. Yes, I expect you to pass higher prices to your consumers. That's the entire point of my idea - to implement an empire wide ISK sink.
I would of course prefer a dynamic system where the price of empire station services varied by the demand. But if that were easy to code, CCP would have done it already. Increasing installation and hourly cost to 10k isk won't destroy the world, it will just give POS and Outpost production a chance to compete.
You have considered what that increasing the isk cost of each unit of ammunition by 5 isk will do to small ammunitions?
What our idea will do to T2 production (where production times are larger, especially for invented stuff)?
Sure a Raven will see little price increase.
But make that a cruise missile launcher (going from memory so the numbers will be imprecise): about 5 hours each unit from a invented BPC (+50K), another half an hour for the quantum microprocessors and the R.A.M. (+5k) for a 1 million module. A 5% increase in price. Nothing horrible, but it will cascade down for all prices.
In the end for "careebears" industrialists it will change almost nothing, they will pass it to costumers; for "carebear" mission runners it will be a bit more noticeable (but mostly for the munitions) but nothing meaningful as they lose a small number of ships; guess again who lose a lot of ships and rarely recover the modules from the wreckage? 0.0 people.
They will be still buying in empire even if the prices rise by 5%, but they will be the ones feeling the increase in price more. If that is your goal go on.
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