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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Tobiaz
Spacerats
399
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Posted - 2012.05.11 21:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm just wondering why alliances that ended with the best 4 last year, still have to take part in the random draw or the bidding process. Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!-á Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors! |
Matze reloaded
The X-Trading Company RAZOR Alliance
0
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Posted - 2012.05.12 10:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
The reason behind this is probably that CCP or Soundwave or whoever decided this wants to avoid public discussions that they'd have to exclude either Hydra or Outbreak from the tourney. Nevertheless this change of rules is definitely not fair towards Darkside and Razor, especially since this was a promised reward from AT IX. |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1401
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Posted - 2012.05.12 12:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
Matze reloaded wrote:The reason behind this is probably that CCP or Soundwave or whoever decided this wants to avoid public discussions that they'd have to exclude either Hydra or Outbreak from the tourney. Nevertheless this change of rules is definitely not fair towards Darkside and Razor, especially since this was a promised reward from AT IX.
We've already had the public discussion and we knew we were in a position where some wouldn't like it, much like some didn't like the fact that we DID grandfather people in. We reserve the right to change the rules at any time and while I agree it's a change from what we've done in the past which could inconvenience people who wanted the free ride into the finals I think "unfair" is a bit of a stretch. Take a look at the people who DID get the free ride last year complaining about it on this very forum for historical reference. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch DarkSide.
10
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Posted - 2012.05.12 12:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Matze reloaded wrote:The reason behind this is probably that CCP or Soundwave or whoever decided this wants to avoid public discussions that they'd have to exclude either Hydra or Outbreak from the tourney. Nevertheless this change of rules is definitely not fair towards Darkside and Razor, especially since this was a promised reward from AT IX. We've already had the public discussion and we knew we were in a position where some wouldn't like it, much like some didn't like the fact that we DID grandfather people in. We reserve the right to change the rules at any time and while I agree it's a change from what we've done in the past which could inconvenience people who wanted the free ride into the finals I think "unfair" is a bit of a stretch. Take a look at the people who DID get the free ride last year complaining about it on this very forum for historical reference.
Ah, here comes the strawman. Nobody said anything about a free ride to the finals. We would gladly play in the pre-qualifiers like everyone else. Nobody said it was unfair, either. We're just saying it's stupid that we don't have a guaranteed entrance into the tournament. |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1401
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Posted - 2012.05.12 13:16:00 -
[5] - Quote
Faffywaffy wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Matze reloaded wrote:The reason behind this is probably that CCP or Soundwave or whoever decided this wants to avoid public discussions that they'd have to exclude either Hydra or Outbreak from the tourney. Nevertheless this change of rules is definitely not fair towards Darkside and Razor, especially since this was a promised reward from AT IX. We've already had the public discussion and we knew we were in a position where some wouldn't like it, much like some didn't like the fact that we DID grandfather people in. We reserve the right to change the rules at any time and while I agree it's a change from what we've done in the past which could inconvenience people who wanted the free ride into the finals I think "unfair" is a bit of a stretch. Take a look at the people who DID get the free ride last year complaining about it on this very forum for historical reference. Ah, here comes the strawman. Nobody said anything about a free ride to the finals. We would gladly play in the pre-qualifiers like everyone else. Nobody said it was unfair, either. We're just saying it's stupid that we don't have a guaranteed entrance into the tournament.
Read the quoted post where I quote the person saying it's unfair which is what I was responding to, thus the quote. We disagree that it's stupid. I apologize that the change negatively impacts you but the bottom line is that it became quite apparent that giving people the entry wasn't in any way guaranteeing quality matches which was the purpose of the rule.
I'm sure we'll have a discussion about it again next year dependent on how things go. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch DarkSide.
10
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Posted - 2012.05.12 13:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote: Read the quoted post where I quote the person saying it's unfair which is what I was responding to, thus the quote. We disagree that it's stupid.
Ah, yes, I missed that. Apologies.
CCP Sreegs wrote:I apologize that the change negatively impacts you but the bottom line is that it became quite apparent that giving people the entry wasn't in any way guaranteeing quality matches which was the purpose of the rule. Hmm, so which of the 4 alliances that were given guaranteed entry last year didn't deliver quality matches? DarkSide, Voltron, PL or Hydra?
Obviously nothing guarantees quality matches, but (potentially) excluding top alliances from the last tournament definitely doesn't contribute towards that goal. |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1401
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Posted - 2012.05.12 14:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
Faffywaffy wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Read the quoted post where I quote the person saying it's unfair which is what I was responding to, thus the quote. We disagree that it's stupid.
Ah, yes, I missed that. Apologies. CCP Sreegs wrote:I apologize that the change negatively impacts you but the bottom line is that it became quite apparent that giving people the entry wasn't in any way guaranteeing quality matches which was the purpose of the rule. Hmm, so which of the 4 alliances that were given guaranteed entry last year didn't deliver quality matches? DarkSide, Voltron, PL or Hydra? Obviously nothing guarantees quality matches, but (potentially) excluding top alliances from the last tournament definitely doesn't contribute towards that goal.
The rule wasn't that we picked the teams we liked from some group of teams and let them automatically in. The rule was that the top x teams got in. Given that last year's performance in the finals was garbage to say the least the rule has been removed as we've already explained. I'm sorry you disagree but we're also not going to bend on this issue. If you have to blame someone I'd recommend the people in the finals last year. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch DarkSide.
10
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Posted - 2012.05.12 15:11:00 -
[8] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:The rule wasn't that we picked the teams we liked from some group of teams and let them automatically in. The rule was that the top x teams got in. Given that last year's performance in the finals was garbage to say the least the rule has been removed as we've already explained. I'm sorry you disagree but we're also not going to bend on this issue. If you have to blame someone I'd recommend the people in the finals last year. Ok, but your solution only achieves the opposite of what you're trying to do. If you want to deny either Hydra or Outbreak entrance, your only option is to expressly deny it to them. Surely with 50 unique frigates/cruisers they can afford a spot in the auction. All you've done is to discourage the two other top-4 teams (and, if we don't get through the lottery and can't scrape enough money for the auction, plainly deny entry).
Basically, you're punishing everyone except for the people who you say are to blame. |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1402
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Posted - 2012.05.12 15:52:00 -
[9] - Quote
Faffywaffy wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:The rule wasn't that we picked the teams we liked from some group of teams and let them automatically in. The rule was that the top x teams got in. Given that last year's performance in the finals was garbage to say the least the rule has been removed as we've already explained. I'm sorry you disagree but we're also not going to bend on this issue. If you have to blame someone I'd recommend the people in the finals last year. Ok, but your solution only achieves the opposite of what you're trying to do. If you want to deny either Hydra or Outbreak entrance, your only option is to expressly deny it to them. Surely with 50 unique frigates/cruisers they can afford a spot in the auction. All you've done is to discourage the two other top-4 teams (and, if we don't get through the lottery and can't scrape enough money for the auction, plainly deny entry). Basically, you're punishing everyone except for the people who you say are to blame.
if you say so "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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james1122
Aperture Harmonics K162
28
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Posted - 2012.05.12 17:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Faffywaffy wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:The rule wasn't that we picked the teams we liked from some group of teams and let them automatically in. The rule was that the top x teams got in. Given that last year's performance in the finals was garbage to say the least the rule has been removed as we've already explained. I'm sorry you disagree but we're also not going to bend on this issue. If you have to blame someone I'd recommend the people in the finals last year. Ok, but your solution only achieves the opposite of what you're trying to do. If you want to deny either Hydra or Outbreak entrance, your only option is to expressly deny it to them. Surely with 50 unique frigates/cruisers they can afford a spot in the auction. All you've done is to discourage the two other top-4 teams (and, if we don't get through the lottery and can't scrape enough money for the auction, plainly deny entry). Basically, you're punishing everyone except for the people who you say are to blame. if you say so
Lol.
From the sound of things they aren't trying to actively punish Hydra, they just don't want to further reward them for producing such an awful final. Also your argument (faffywaffy, not skreegs) is flawed on so many levels I don't even know where to begin >.<
Have to say I agree with CCP on this one.
Two Step for CSM |
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Faffywaffy
Fremen Sietch DarkSide.
10
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Posted - 2012.05.12 21:28:00 -
[11] - Quote
james1122 wrote:From the sound of things they aren't trying to actively punish Hydra, they just don't want to further reward them for producing such an awful final.
But they are rewarding them instead, by potentially eliminating some of their strongest opponents from the tournament altogether. Do you honestly think that Hydra/Outbreak, given their prizes from last year, would have trouble getting a spot in the auction? Do you think they would blink at spending 50bil (=one Vangel/Malice)?
Or, if they feel particularly evil, they can buy spots in the lottery/auction by giving isk to some random newb alliances that don't really stand a chance. In fact, anyone with enough isk could do that.
james1122 wrote: Also your argument (faffywaffy, not skreegs) is flawed on so many levels I don't even know where to begin >.<
Please do begin. |
Intigo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
8
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Posted - 2012.05.13 07:42:00 -
[12] - Quote
Oh dear. So many tears over having to spend 10-20b ISK in the auction slots.
Get over it, Faffy. You will be fine. |
sevyn nine
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
6
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Posted - 2012.05.13 13:43:00 -
[13] - Quote
I've got to agree with Faffy here. Talk about throwing out the baby with the bath water.
If you really have a problem with Hydra and Outbreak, then revoke the automatic entry for Hydra and Outbreak. Whoa, complex, I know.
In the future, please continue the automatic entry for the top four teams (as long as they play fair). It makes the tourney better. |
Musician
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.05.13 18:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
What the matter Darkside and Razor you scared you do not make it through the prelims? I smell fear! STFU and get on with your training, because you going to need it. |
Chiimera
Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
0
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Posted - 2012.05.14 04:08:00 -
[15] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:
We've already had the public discussion and we knew we were in a position where some wouldn't like it, much like some didn't like the fact that we DID grandfather people in. We reserve the right to change the rules at any time and while I agree it's a change from what we've done in the past which could inconvenience people who wanted the free ride into the finals I think "unfair" is a bit of a stretch. Take a look at the people who DID get the free ride last year complaining about it on this very forum for historical reference.
First of all im pretty sure that no-one gets a free ride into the next tournament, I know that at least everyone in razor tried very hard, and spent alot of time getting into the finals, personally alliance tournament time for me is from 2-5am in the morning so I think it is pretty ignorant to say it is a free ride.
Getting guaranteed entry into the tournament has never been about providing good matches, it was about the winners getting a chance to defend their title. Also it was seen as a prize which 4 teams now don't get.
Why not allow the 4 teams into the tournament, im sure if you tried talking the the players once in a while you might be able to make a decision that benefits everyone. After all Hydra/Outbreak cant have two teams in the tournament this year anyway so one has to forfeit or otherwise they are both DQ'ed
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Gallente Citizen10001
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.05.14 05:01:00 -
[16] - Quote
How quickly Razor forgets who got them out of the group stages last year.
For all the allegations of not "playing fair" you also forget that what Hydra and 0utbreak did was within the rules at the time.
I also see no reason why Hydra and 0utbreak can't both enter this year as long as each group competes as a separate entity and they don't cooperate as they did the year before. I'm sure CCP will be watching both teams very closely anyway so I don't see either team taking any risks that might result in disqualification under the new rules.
tl;dr Stop whining, if you really are a top4 team then you'll have a very good chance to place highly and recoup any initial investments from the prizes you get. |
Intigo
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
10
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Posted - 2012.05.14 08:01:00 -
[17] - Quote
Gallente Citizen10001 wrote:How quickly Razor forgets who got them out of the group stages last year. For all the allegations of not "playing fair" you also forget that what Hydra and 0utbreak did was within the rules at the time. I also see no reason why Hydra and 0utbreak can't both enter this year as long as each group competes as a separate entity and they don't cooperate as they did the year before. I'm sure CCP will be watching both teams very closely anyway so I don't see either team taking any risks that might result in disqualification under the new rules. tl;dr Stop whining, if you really are a top4 team then you'll have a very good chance to place highly and recoup any initial investments from the prizes you get.
This is a good post.
Edit: And yes, best of luck to OB in the tournament! Hope we get to fight at some point, would be an amazing clash! |
Chiimera
Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance
0
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Posted - 2012.05.14 12:25:00 -
[18] - Quote
Gallente Citizen10001 wrote:How quickly Razor forgets who got them out of the group stages last year. For all the allegations of not "playing fair" you also forget that what Hydra and 0utbreak did was within the rules at the time. I also see no reason why Hydra and 0utbreak can't both enter this year as long as each group competes as a separate entity and they don't cooperate as they did the year before. I'm sure CCP will be watching both teams very closely anyway so I don't see either team taking any risks that might result in disqualification under the new rules. tl;dr Stop whining, if you really are a top4 team then you'll have a very good chance to place highly and recoup any initial investments from the prizes you get.
For the record I have nothing against what Hydra/Outbreak did. I thought it was halarious :) |
sevyn nine
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
6
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Posted - 2012.05.14 15:38:00 -
[19] - Quote
Gallente Citizen10001 wrote:How quickly Razor forgets who got them out of the group stages last year. For all the allegations of not "playing fair" you also forget that what Hydra and 0utbreak did was within the rules at the time. I also see no reason why Hydra and 0utbreak can't both enter this year as long as each group competes as a separate entity and they don't cooperate as they did the year before. I'm sure CCP will be watching both teams very closely anyway so I don't see either team taking any risks that might result in disqualification under the new rules. tl;dr Stop whining, if you really are a top4 team then you'll have a very good chance to place highly and recoup any initial investments from the prizes you get.
Well, the main point is simply entrance into the tournamanet. I'm biased of course, but I think it's silly that any of the the top 4 teams have to worry about random draws and auctions. I don't mind running through the qualifiers like everyone else. |
Humphrey Goff
Trotters Independent Trading
0
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Posted - 2012.05.14 20:41:00 -
[20] - Quote
Matze reloaded wrote: Nevertheless this change of rules is definitely not fair towards Darkside and Razor, especially since this was a promised reward from AT IX.
I have no grudge, but you do know that Razor was one of the teams doing the bracket manipulation last year right?
Tbh I really think that CCP is handling this well, not making scapegoats out of any individual alliances but trying to address the flaws in the meta game as a whole.
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Tyzzara
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
1
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Posted - 2012.05.15 07:58:00 -
[21] - Quote
/me sighs
Having a rule that essentially allows CCP to pick and choose teams at their leisure sucks.
However, it is a necessary evil. The challenge to create written rules which would address AT9 problems is not realistic. Unless they are going to single people out and/or create a gridlock mess of fine print to be interpreted by anyone with an opinion.
v0v
Nobody wants to see two 'friends' meet up for the final match and then count seconds while watching the clock. That match sucked. Bad. (attempting to ensure no repeat of AT9 final is damn difficult here folks due to the level of meta-gaming, etc...)
The way they are doing it 'clean-slate' is the only choice out of several poor options to choose from.
I think CCP is handling it as well as can be expected.
/me waves hand at others
Continue... AFK Time Zone |
Tobiaz
Spacerats
412
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Posted - 2012.05.15 08:05:00 -
[22] - Quote
Even though the finals sucked, all teams that reached in the semi-finals fought hard to get there, and deserved to be one of the initial 64 to kick off the tournament. They are by no means at all 'poor teams to choose from' and there's absolutely no guarantee they will end up in the same position , where they can choose to throw the game as last year. Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!-á Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors! |
Zowie Powers
Hole in the wall
77
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Posted - 2012.05.15 12:47:00 -
[23] - Quote
I suppose that I too had better disregard all of the unprecedented quality matches last year's participants produced simply because one of the matches turned out to be a farce.
I thought I was happy accepting all the good stuff that AT9 brought, but I'm reading here that I am supposed to be enraged to the point of irrationality.
I will now blindly follow suit, absolved of all responsibility for my own thoughts. |
Baellis
United Salvation CROATOAN.
0
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Posted - 2012.05.15 14:35:00 -
[24] - Quote
i watch the alliance tournaments every year and i love watching i wish my alliance was big enough and had enough money to actual participate in the tournament. I don't like seeing teams manipulate the point system like last year it bugged me this is a competition if u did that in a tournament for any other game they would DQ both teams and laugh at the tears. also hated the finals last year, watched as the other team stopped shooting and got killed off one by one. honestly i like the new changes to the rules it looks like its going to be a lot more fun to watch this year.
i don't feel sympathy for alliances being punished for last years shenanigans. i just want to watch something fun and dream about the day i get to be a part of it. GL with ATX guys put on a good show |
sevyn nine
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
6
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Posted - 2012.05.15 15:47:00 -
[25] - Quote
Humphrey Goff wrote:Matze reloaded wrote: Nevertheless this change of rules is definitely not fair towards Darkside and Razor, especially since this was a promised reward from AT IX.
I have no grudge, but you do know that Razor was one of the teams doing the bracket manipulation last year right?
Last year Razor was in a horrible position. We knew that, in a match after ours, Wild Boars and Circle-of-Two were going to throw the match in order to help Wild Boars continue. Razor handily beat Wild Boars in a previous match. Razor had to fight Outbreak, but it was mathematically impossible for us to do well enough to overcome the following thrown match. Our only options were to either throw our match, or fight it out and regardless of the outcome, not continue in the tournament. There was a lot of internal debate (including intially refusing to throw our match), but in the end I decided that our main goal was to progress through the tourney and I needed to do whatever it took. Our hand was forced, and it sucked.
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Humphrey Goff
Trotters Independent Trading
0
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Posted - 2012.05.15 18:24:00 -
[26] - Quote
sevyn nine wrote:Humphrey Goff wrote: I have no grudge, but you do know that Razor was one of the teams doing the bracket manipulation last year right?
.... Our hand was forced, and it sucked.
Thanks for all the letters, simple yes would have been sufficient. |
sevyn nine
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
6
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Posted - 2012.05.15 23:46:00 -
[27] - Quote
Humphrey Goff wrote:sevyn nine wrote:Humphrey Goff wrote: I have no grudge, but you do know that Razor was one of the teams doing the bracket manipulation last year right?
.... Our hand was forced, and it sucked. Thanks for all the letters, simple yes would have been sufficient.
Well, just putting it into context for those that weren't there.
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Cannery Canoule
War is Bliss
6
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Posted - 2012.05.16 15:41:00 -
[28] - Quote
sevyn nine wrote:Humphrey Goff wrote:Matze reloaded wrote: Nevertheless this change of rules is definitely not fair towards Darkside and Razor, especially since this was a promised reward from AT IX.
I have no grudge, but you do know that Razor was one of the teams doing the bracket manipulation last year right? Last year Razor was in a horrible position. We knew that, in a match after ours, Wild Boars and Circle-of-Two were going to throw the match in order to help Wild Boars continue. Razor handily beat Wild Boars in a previous match. Razor had to fight Outbreak, but it was mathematically impossible for us to do well enough to overcome the following thrown match. Our only options were to either throw our match, or fight it out and regardless of the outcome, not continue in the tournament. There was a lot of internal debate (including intially refusing to throw our match), but in the end I decided that our main goal was to progress through the tourney and I needed to do whatever it took. Our hand was forced, and it sucked.
How does having to beat 0utbreak with a 90 point team, which is what they let you do, equate to a mathematically impossible situation?
You could've fielded 90 points and beat Outbreak without an agreement but since that would've been very difficult to do you accepted their offer. You simply did what you had to in order to give your team the highest chance of advancing. There's no shame in this, but you shouldn't confuse the facts to make your alliance appear to be white knights of honour who had no choice in the matter when you did have a choice.
The funny thing is all the people who take the moral high ground would probably jump at any opportunity that significantly increases their chances in the tournament (within the rules ofc). So you really shouldn't feel uncomfortable by your actions. |
sevyn nine
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
6
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Posted - 2012.05.17 20:28:00 -
[29] - Quote
Cannery Canoule wrote:sevyn nine wrote:Humphrey Goff wrote:Matze reloaded wrote: Nevertheless this change of rules is definitely not fair towards Darkside and Razor, especially since this was a promised reward from AT IX.
I have no grudge, but you do know that Razor was one of the teams doing the bracket manipulation last year right? Last year Razor was in a horrible position. We knew that, in a match after ours, Wild Boars and Circle-of-Two were going to throw the match in order to help Wild Boars continue. Razor handily beat Wild Boars in a previous match. Razor had to fight Outbreak, but it was mathematically impossible for us to do well enough to overcome the following thrown match. Our only options were to either throw our match, or fight it out and regardless of the outcome, not continue in the tournament. There was a lot of internal debate (including intially refusing to throw our match), but in the end I decided that our main goal was to progress through the tourney and I needed to do whatever it took. Our hand was forced, and it sucked. How does having to beat 0utbreak with a 90 point team, which is what they let you do, equate to a mathematically impossible situation? You could've fielded 90 points and beat Outbreak without an agreement but since that would've been very difficult to do you accepted their offer. You simply did what you had to in order to give your team the highest chance of advancing. There's no shame in this, but you shouldn't confuse the facts to make your alliance appear to be white knights of honour who had no choice in the matter when you did have a choice. The funny thing is all the people who take the moral high ground would probably jump at any opportunity that significantly increases their chances in the tournament (within the rules ofc). So you really shouldn't feel uncomfortable by your actions.
I wouldn't expect you to understand, but there comes a point to where your chances of you winning are close enough to 0 that you need to explore other possibilities.
I'm not sure why I'm wasting the time explaining this to you. Hopefully you can put your expertise into action and lead your tourney team to glory. Good luck in the tourney this year! |
Humphrey Goff
Trotters Independent Trading
1
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Posted - 2012.05.17 21:11:00 -
[30] - Quote
sevyn nine wrote: I wouldn't expect you to understand, but there comes a point to where your chances of you winning are close enough to 0 that you need to explore other possibilities.
How does that make you more valiant than Wild Boars/CO2? |
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