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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2009.05.27 07:42:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Izo Alabaster [Player vs Player Economy] already takes place in asteroid belts, since the belts only produce a set amount of isk per day, and once they're mined out, they're gone for awhile. This creates competition between the miners, which is a good thing to have. Lvl 4 missions have no competition, because there are an infinite amount of them, always spawning out in space for people to simply warp to, and collect with almost no risk.
There are an infinite number of asteroid belts just waiting to be spawned from any level 1, 2 or 3 agent in hisec. I can't help but chuckle as I watch folks in Hulks mining out Omber, when they're in a system with a bunch of level 1 agents just itching to hand out free Veldspar.
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Avalon Champion
Gallente Defence Evaluation Research Agency
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Posted - 2009.05.27 07:43:00 -
[32]
Yes there is an element of making the pirates happy, but if you get enough missioners in an area and they start forming NAP's with other corps, the pirates will start to move out, its been done in other places, and it does work.
Level 4's need to be worked on, whether thats pushing high quaility agents into low sec, or some other mechanic,
My personal favourite would be to base the bounties, rewards, and LP, on sec level of the system, eg ((1-system sec)+.3) * base reward, so in a 1.0 the mission is only worth 30%, in a 0.5 its worth 80%, and in a 0.1 its worth 120%.
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Indiference
Republic University
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Posted - 2009.05.27 07:50:00 -
[33]
PvP, that is what EVE is about, as has been explained before, everything in EVE is PvP from trading to actually shooting other toons. However lvl 4 missions are not PvP, no matter how you look at tit you are not competing in lvl 4 missions other than with yourself.
Fixing this is not as easy as handing pirates extra kills to boast about in lowsec. Pirating as a profession is dead because no-one wants to die in lowsec. If youÆre a carebear and you jump into lowsec and there is a pirate on the other side you pretty much know your dead, and with your mission boat fit, the best you can try and do is to target and put everything you have on him, at which point all his buddies arrive because the first pirate is there to tank the guns, right?
If you run a mission in lowsec and you get ganked, your problem becomes even worse than having missed the alerts that was sounded. There is nothing you can do to go and complete that mission, because the pirates will just wait for you at your mission spot, so instead of a reward you lose your ship and you lose your mission. Does it make good sense to just keep throwing your ships at pirates and losing your isk so that they can get fatter wallets? You already have a fat wallet else you would not be PvPÆing.
If lvl 4 missions are so profitable then why do the pirates not run them ? Because pirates do not like to grind, they are the ones that like the easy kills, and "silly" tanked carebears are perfect for them.
Please mister PvP pirate why don't you take your buffer tanked tech 2 pawn mobile and run some missions. Will the bad NPC's pop your 200 mil epeen ?
The only way to run lvl 4 mission in lowsec is to be part of a group of people, that is great because more people then populate lowsec and ultimately 0.0, however the people that live in lowsec and 0.0 live there for the PvP and if they are anything like the alliances that I have been part of before then you running missions are frowned upon you should be pew pewing not making isk. If you can show me how it is possible for a group of carebears to run lowsec lvl4 missions and still it is still as profitable as soloing a highsec lvl4 then sure move lvl 4 mission to lowsec and make it more risk orientated, then it should belong there.
As a matter of interest (and for comparison sake only) you can make more isk out of ninja salvaging a lvl 4 missions and there is 0 risk involved plus there is a never ending stream of them to probe out.
Bottom line, moving lvl4 missions to lowsec might be a solution if the lvl4 rewards are equal to the risk of being ganked by pirates and loosing not only your ship and fittings but also the mission rewards. Make it more team orientated so that carebears can run them in groups and feel safer but then make sure that the rewards are equal. Wait is that no called level 5 missions and yet there are still pirates moaning about lvl 4 missions, not enough carebears to gank that has **** PvP fits busy running PvE missions ?
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Nareg Maxence
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.27 07:51:00 -
[34]
Give level 4 mission spawns better AI.
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5pinDizzy
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Posted - 2009.05.27 08:03:00 -
[35]
Most people with a bit more sense just want all missions restructured to be different so that (for level 4's mainly) they aren't a magic tap full of infinite isk you can choose to turn on and off depending on the level of grind you are willing to endure.
That's all.
If you mine you run out of rocks, if you trade you run out of items or buyers/sellers, if you suicide gank the best stuff might just blow up and someone might beat you to the looting.
I don't know why the quite frankly kinda stupid notion of just moving all level 4's to lowsec keeps being propped up as the flagship of the NErf MissioNz! argument.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.05.27 08:09:00 -
[36]
Quote: Yes there is an element of making the pirates happy, but if you get enough missioners in an area and they start forming NAP's with other corps, the pirates will start to move out, its been done in other places, and it does work.
I belief most of those areas pretty much died out.
When i used to be in another alliance i did low sec missions (lvl 4, Q20, income was higher than high sec, allthough way too much due to LP, i want just more isk, not LP. And then i got to use a raven instead of a CNR with faction fitting i can use in high sec). That area was pretty safe in general, but i still got ganked by a couple of pirates, and then you got to do many missions again to make profit. (btw lol @ people suggesting not to fit CCC/cap recharge stuff on mission ships, ever considered there is a special reason people dont fit cap boosters on a mission ship).
So what happened? I got killed by a couple of neutrals. Then we got the people who will advice to dock when neutrals come into local. This isnt 0.0, this is low sec. If you dock everytime neutrals show up you wont ever undock. Scan for probes? Talking about stupid and boring, hitting the scanner every 10 seconds and additionally not being able to filter for probes, so you got to look at a freaking long list of stuff if there is a probe somewhere between it. Even then the result would be that one bored pirate with some probes could shut down an entire mission hub because he has probes out. Asking others to safe you when you are being attacked? The response from allies was very fast, immediatly several who wanted to get fleeted to help. I didnt bother fleeting them. I was perma running my shield booster before they came to be able to tank the npcs. Curse + pilgrim appear, guess how long my tank hold without shield booster and no hardeners active.
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Polly Prissypantz
Dingleberry Appreciation Society
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Posted - 2009.05.27 08:25:00 -
[37]
Posting in yet another level 4 whine thread.
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Nomakai Delateriel
Amarr Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2009.05.27 08:47:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Furb Killer Scan for probes? Talking about stupid and boring, hitting the scanner every 10 seconds and additionally not being able to filter for probes, so you got to look at a freaking long list of stuff if there is a probe somewhere between it.
lrn2play. Or whatever the standard insult is in this case.
1. If you order scan results by type and not name probes will appear at the same place every time. 2. Low-sec mission running is different from high-sec. If there are others in system you don't move out unless you're already fleeted up and prepared for intervention. They won't get your bounties/stuff unless they're on the same grid. Also move off the initial warp-in point (use an afterburner to reduce window of opportunity) and stay aligned to one of your favorite safespots for this day. There is usually some sort of debris on the warp-in point to decloak someone using a Cov Op.
That said, sometimes low-sec missionrunning isn't worth the hassle. It's not impossible for a well-organized corp, and can even be quite profitable. But the people who can do it could just as well be a part of one of the semi-decent 0.0 alliances in the game (as it takes combat ability and co-ordiantion to make it worth it) and making a lot more money.
Anyone that says that level4 mission-running gives you equal rewards to decent 0.0 ratting (ie, not Providence, Outer Ring or one of the other areas in New Eden with useless ratting) is either using a pimped out boat just begging for someone to Suicidegank them (in which case it's no longer risk free as it pays off to nuke 20 t1 fitted battleships to get at the juicy faction module interiors) or they're lying. Even an area like Catch would beat l4s for money if it wasn't so mind-numbingly boring to rat. Delve and you could use any DPS focused and long-range battleship (such as the Raven or any one of the amarr battleships, possibly even T1 fitted) to out-earn someone flying a multi-billion Nightmare and implants worth even more billions. And that in the first hour of ratting. ______________________________________________ -My respect can not be won, only lost. It's given freely and only grudgingly withdrawn. |
logeoff now
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Posted - 2009.05.27 08:53:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Rhinanna [sarcasm]Yeah lets move Lvl4s to low-sec cos the reward outweights the risk[/sarcasm]
I take it you are planning on banning hi-sec trading then?
You really dont get it do you?
When you trade.. you literally "move" isk from one place to another and hope to double it or smth.
If you run lvl4-s... you gain stuff that you can sell... which is the problem! It ruins market.. it ruins mining etc.
All other part of your text was just stupid whine how hard it will be to run missions in low sec.... DO IT IN HISEC THEN, run lvl3-s... you are not after ISK anyway right????????
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AncientLord
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Posted - 2009.05.27 08:53:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Max Tux from what i can see, people want level 4's moved to low sec mainly so they can have more people to kill, they will not be good fights they will mainly be ganks.
this is a poor excuse to want to change the main income on many players, maybe reduce the loot drops, yes,but the idea of forcing people into low sec won't work.
Max Tux & Rhinanna told you guys/girls, what is wrong and you still go on with your blaber.
PvP'ers need to add bit brain.
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Hyveres
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.05.27 08:55:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Karentaki
Originally by: Valandril Your abilit to read fails, ppl want them moved to lowsec because they are biggest income available in eve and they come without any risk.
This! They can give as much ISK per hour as 0.0 ratting with none of the risk.
Ehh mining arkonor in 0.0 for a skilled hulkpilot , single character = close to 50m isk/hour.
Missionrunning is accepted at around 20m isk/hour per character if you dont get the ****ty missions at all. Usually people earn less than that. To go above the 20m area on average usually means factionfitted marauder , nightmare or the like if its to be done efficiently.
And last time I had belts in a good 0.0 system to myself the income was in the 40m/hour area or above. "Subtlety is a thing for philosophy, not combat. If you're going to kill someone, you might as well kill them a whole lot." - Vulcan Raven, The Last Days Of Foxhound |
Darius Brinn
Gallente Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2009.05.27 08:57:00 -
[42]
Forcing people into Lowsec does not work.
Increase 0.0 ratting rewards. Increase the profits of mining. Entice people to move to other riskier/more boring (but needed) activities. Those are reasonable ideas.
Asking CCP to move lvl4s to low security is just a flow of pirate tears asking for targets not fitted to shoot back. http://www.geocities.com/vagrantweapons/db.jpg |
Terak Rorkai
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Posted - 2009.05.27 08:59:00 -
[43]
I would say I'm relativly new to the game since I've only played for say about a year but over that years time I have done mining, mission running and a small bit of pvp heck I'm now in 0.0 ratting and what I can say from reading a whole bunch of these posts is both sides have gd points but in the end the best ways combat wise to make money should be in low sec or 0.0 since if ur not gona be part of a militia then it would be unrealistic to have high rewards in secure space. I won't go into replying to all the points but at least the ones which stand out like the issue over pvpers just wanting easy kills, who are you kidding pvpers could just as likely get those "easy kills" from people ratting, as others have stated the use of communication and a brain if at all possible both would mean you wouldn't be killed so it stands to reason people complain about it when ur playing an mmo which tends to intail interaction between other players(big ccp examples would be the removal of shadow training and the short queue to prevent players from rarely logging on). |
Tippia
Raddick Explorations Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.05.27 09:07:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Darius Brinn Forcing people into Lowsec does not work.
Increase 0.0 ratting rewards. Increase the profits of mining. Entice people to move to other riskier/more boring (but needed) activities. Those are reasonable ideas.
Asking CCP to move lvl4s to low security is just a flow of pirate tears asking for targets not fitted to shoot back.
A better idea would probably be to make L4s competetive and thus PvP:able (as in "I take your business", not the 'splo-you-up kind of PvP). ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Titan Pilot
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.05.27 09:15:00 -
[45]
CCP knows this idea will not work because PVE setups have no chance against roaming gangs. And this is their bread and butter.
Anyone who says otherwise has been playing a different game for last 6 years.
On the flip side I can make billions in empire with almost zero risk trading. Then there is the insurance payout for suiciding your ship into a poor hauler with a tank equivalent to maybe a cruiser without guns in the best of circumstances.
Whats funny as ppl always use the response if you want to do no risk lvl 4s bring a friend.
I challenge any decent PVP corp to say in corp chat right now lets go run missions together or ask for protection while someone does theirs .... lol
I think I prefer the emoragequit posts of those quiting because of bugs better than this drivel
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Joe
Umbra Legion Shadow Empire.
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Posted - 2009.05.27 09:19:00 -
[46]
Quote: Why people want lvl 4's moved to low sec
There are lvl 4 agents in low sec allready, i enjoy running them along with my Lvl 5's. Real Topic title should read 'Why do people want lvl 4s removed from hi sec'
Originally by: Max Tux from what i can see, people want level 4's moved to low sec mainly so they can have more people to kill, they will not be good fights they will mainly be ganks.
People asking for the change arent lazy Pk's looking for more ganks (they can use the Wardec sysem, goto FW, goto 0.0 etc etc).
The rapid Increase in Lvl 4 whine threads is becuase Forum warriors like to feel big and hard by manipulating the game through Meta tactics: Forum Whine Bandwagons.
By repeating false arguements over and over again, ignoring any truths that contradict their own rhetoric, and then manipulating anyones posts that contradict their agenda, they are able to get the Forums flooded to the piont where normal players suddenly think theres a problem, and then Devs Respond.
You'll find the main arguemnt currently being spammed is 'Lvl 4s in hi sec make to much', and then anyone that pionts out the dozens of other profitible activities are riduculed.
I personally think the Dev tem needs to stop pandering to Forum warriors, but the Forums are where most new or interested players gain their first impressions of the game, and seeing the forums spammed with 'Game is broken' is bad for ccp buiseness.
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logeoff now
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Posted - 2009.05.27 09:21:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Titan Pilot CCP knows this idea will not work because PVE setups have no chance against roaming gangs. And this is their bread and butter.
SO? what this has to do with lvl4 profit? AFAIK hulks cant pvp at all... maybe give them 9000 dps and 10000 tank so they would be much safer in 0.0? Would this be reasonable for CCP?
If i understood you wrong then.. explain... maybe I just have no idea wtf are you talking about and im only assuming.. lol
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Tippia
Raddick Explorations Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.05.27 09:29:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Joe You'll find the main arguemnt currently being spammed is 'Lvl 4s in hi sec make to much', and then anyone that pionts out the dozens of other profitible activities are riduculed.
Actually, the main argument is that “L4s in high-sec make too much and there is no way to attack that revenue stream” — at least from those who actually have an argument. That's why the other activities are irrelevant — all of them can be attacked, disrupted or just plain old stolen in some way.
It's the fact that this one particular activity cannot be affected from the outside, yet it is allowed to massively affect the rest of the game that bothers people. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki |
Wolfie276
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Posted - 2009.05.27 09:33:00 -
[49]
Look at it this way:
If u finally manage to nerf high sec L4, u will just go on complaining about too many people in low sec. Or complain about level 3 missions being risk free.
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Shaun Klaroh
Caldari The Report Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.05.27 09:34:00 -
[50]
Limit the number of Level IV missions given out by each agent X time per day.
For the sake of this example:
Level IV agent has a base rate of 20 missions per six hours. -> Pilot A takes one, 19 Available -> Pilot B takes one, 18 Available
So on, and so on till the "reset". The reset timer doesn't start until after that first mission is taken, and you can't know how many are actually available.
High-priority missions like Level IV's can't be completely ongoing in the same five systems. I mean.. Kruul can only build his brothel so many times a day, y'know. -----
Quote: "Are these people prisoners?" Arkhan asked.
"Not at all," Melak replied. "They're free to run and get shot any time they like."
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magichatno9
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Posted - 2009.05.27 09:36:00 -
[51]
KEEP ALL OF THE NON COMBAT L4S IN EMPIRE AND THE COMBAT ONES IN LOWSEC
MAKES SENSE!
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KiloAlpha
Southern Cross Trilogy
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Posted - 2009.05.27 09:44:00 -
[52]
first this is coming from a pvp char point of view (i rat just enough to pay my expenses)
imo instead of trying to move l4 missions to lowsec, CCP could apply sleeper AI to L4 mission rats. This would level off the risk v. reward issue, and the carebears' would not be getting ganked in lowsec(lowsec pvp is gay anyway). To increas the interest in lowsec, the missions found there could also have better drop rate/mission reward.
but i do not claim to know exactly how eve economy works so im sure this would require some tweaking
feedback?
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.05.27 09:51:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Max Tux from what i can see, people want level 4's moved to low sec mainly so they can have more people to kill, they will not be good fights they will mainly be ganks.
this is a poor excuse to want to change the main income on many players, maybe reduce the loot drops, yes,but the idea of forcing people into low sec won't work.
From what I can see, people want level 4s kept in hi-sec so they can keep on macroing the missions so that they can sell the ISK.
Hey, baseless, stupid accusations are fun!
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.05.27 09:56:00 -
[54]
Well, L5s are available only in lowsec, some of them are marginally soloable too, you can even "gamble" for a highsec destination for one... and they have been (more or less) recently been buffed in (LP) rewards. They're still not radically better than L4s though, and not so easily soloable (some are almost non-soloable, at least for most people). Guess how many people run L5s.... yeah, you guessed right. If L4s ever get moved to lowsec, L3s become the new ISK-maker in highsec... almost on par with heavy-duty mining. It wouldn't be such a BAD idea, but then again, meh... oh well, could be worse, I guess.
Personally, I'd really prefer to keep L4s in highsec, even bring L5s into highsec... but heavily adjust the obtainable rewards depending on security rating (dynamically).
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Galleter
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Posted - 2009.05.27 10:04:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Galleter on 27/05/2009 10:05:19 here is some true about missions and why some people want to move it to low/0.0 power blocks - means russions want to control all eve and market and people in empire prevent that. because all 0.0 belongs to russian, thay heva notheing more to conquer, so they want "more fun" and "fresh meat" to shut it.
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Mad0ne
Caldari Enterprise Estonia Cult of War
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Posted - 2009.05.27 10:28:00 -
[56]
Whatever is the outcome... whatever are the ideas... just WHATEVER
but finally it should be like this: lowsec - 0.0 activityes (ANY KIND) should give so much more profit than secure ones! That there would be reason to do them in first place...
Mission NPC-s should not drop so much crap T1 loot, instead better named ones but more often! Then there will be second thoughts to refine OR not to refine and instead sell it.
Minerals are base building blocks in eve, mining should be the MOST basic resource to build stuff or get rich! (if done properly)
When LVL4 loot refining > than mining, then HUGE part of the game is broken!
----------------------------------------------- Limit cloaks to cloaking ships! Or Make covert ops`s to scan prototype and improved cloaks!!!
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Fille Balle
Dissolution Of Eternity Ethikos Trade Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.27 10:30:00 -
[57]
lol @ all you people thinking there's a problem with lvl4's. It was brought up at the CSM-CCP meeting, and CCP's response was: "we don't consider this a problem".
Regarding the age old ******ed argument about minerals from reprocessed modules:
1. It's not all mission loot, in fact, very small amounts of it is mission loot 2. The majority stems from drone loot 3. It does NOT affect the HIGH END minerals as much as the mid range minerals 4. Nullsec ores are barely affected 5. Not all mission runners loot 6. Hardly any of the minerals make it to the market, and thus it has no effect on the minerals market
Besides, if they're so profitable, what's preventing you from doing them? Is it because it's so boring? So you are proposing that somebody do something boring in a place that you can shoot them to make it more exciting for THEM? I don't know who you are trying to fool, but it's not certainly not me.
You being bored because there's not enough "juicy" targets stems from a completely different problem: people like you having too much time on your hands sitting idle in lowsec waiting for juicy targets to gank, and not having some sort of epiphany at some point.
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T'ealk O'Neil
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Posted - 2009.05.27 10:43:00 -
[58]
Edited by: T''ealk O''Neil on 27/05/2009 10:43:06 I'm betting that most of the ppl whining here that think lvl 4's give too much reward used to run them themselves, but now just becuase they have turned low-sec pirates, or have access to 0.0 want it nerfed because they either:
a) want a lot of EASY kills b) think that unless you are in 0.0 you should not be able to make any isk.
The trouble is that at the moment too many people are trying to change the way that eve works, just because they want something that gives them an advantage, forgetting the fact that they used to make use of all of these things when they started out.
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Blackjack Turner
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.05.27 10:54:00 -
[59]
Originally by: T'ealk O'Neil Edited by: T''ealk O''Neil on 27/05/2009 10:43:06 I'm betting that most of the ppl whining here that think lvl 4's give too much reward used to run them themselves, but now just becuase they have turned low-sec pirates, or have access to 0.0 want it nerfed because they either:
a) want a lot of EASY kills b) think that unless you are in 0.0 you should not be able to make any isk.
The trouble is that at the moment too many people are trying to change the way that eve works, just because they want something that gives them an advantage, forgetting the fact that they used to make use of all of these things when they started out.
What he said!
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McDaddy Pimp
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.05.27 11:02:00 -
[60]
It seems that most complains is about lvl4's risk-free zero-competition isk making. And moving them to low sec is a bit harsh imo.
Solution: Remove bounties from NPCs. Make them drop tags like NAVY NPCs.
-will create the much wanted "competition"
-no longer NPCs acts as a bag of ISK wating to be scoop, more like an asteriod where you have to mine it (shoot) and there's a risk of being can flipped (ppl stealing your tags)
-drastic increase number of agents trough out empire and spread it even more (so mission runners can find their own nice quite system to farm in)
- to make it more interesting, make tag thief get agro from the whole room
-and stolen tags worth less then "legit" ones
-no longer can you sit in a shield domi, agro the whole room, watch a movie, and isk piling up in you wallet.
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