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Meeogi Amarr Lone Star Privateers	Posted - 2009.05.26 15:35:00 - [1] Since the plex code system has worked out pretty well, I have an idea. What about a skill remap device...that can be purchased similar to the plex cards...and used as a commodity in game? I think it would be cool, and you could add penalties using such a dangerous prototype device...like chance of skill point loss...or whatever. I am sure this would be a pleasing addition of income for CCP as well. Please Generally discuss Wax on Wax off
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Hoodlums Associates	Posted - 2009.05.26 15:36:00 - [2] Hell no!
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.05.26 15:37:00 - [3] No. ___________________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Jim diGriz Caldari Lollipops for Rancors	Posted - 2009.05.26 15:40:00 - [4] Functionality already exists. You can respec your attributes once a year :)
Steve Cain Guardians of the Void Irano Research Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.26 15:40:00 - [5] A PLEX is one thing but when you start to sell other things for cash you're only 1 step away from selling custom colors and go faster stripes for ships..
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.05.26 15:45:00 - [6] Oh yes, sure, pretty pretty please let ccp introduce micro-transactions. NO!!!
Karentaki Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.05.26 15:47:00 - [7] NO! Quote: EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
JitaBum Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.05.26 15:47:00 - [8] another quality thread
Jack Gilligan Dragon's Rage Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.05.26 15:49:00 - [9] Originally by: Steve Cain A PLEX is one thing but when you start to sell other things for cash you're only 1 step away from selling custom colors and go faster stripes for ships.. This. Next thing you know they are selling a "trading card game" with "expansions" with random cards for in game items that are exclusive to it, and other horrors that unethical publishers like SOE have tried. A better solution would be to make a "respec device" that is manufactured in game from some really exotic materials. This way it'd be player based and part of the economy. Another idea would be to "stack penalize" excessive use of these things, ie: the first time you use one after your "free" respec it costs you one device. Every subsequent respec requires you to use more of them (ie: 2 for the second one, 3 for the third, etc) until it resets at your next annual "free" respec. --- My opinions are my own and do not necessarily represent those of my corp or alliance.
Wai Ng'Tse	Posted - 2009.05.26 15:51:00 - [10] While I certainly wouldn't mind changing some skill points here and there... I don't think micro-transactions are the right way to go about it

Sun Clausewitz	Posted - 2009.05.26 15:53:00 - [11] I still want the I win item added Pick Three: Caldari/PVP/Solo/Success
Meeogi Amarr Lone Star Privateers	Posted - 2009.05.26 15:58:00 - [12] so asshats...explain why not....Is it because you have trained for years...and don't want others getting to your skill point lvl, in a faster time? I can accept that. ...please explain. I think the chance of major skill point loss, could be funny if it "could" be major. Wax on Wax off
Meeogi Amarr Lone Star Privateers	Posted - 2009.05.26 16:02:00 - [13] Originally by: Steve Cain A PLEX is one thing but when you start to sell other things for cash you're only 1 step away from selling custom colors and go faster stripes for ships.. Well.......selling and buying are two different things, CCP could be selling mugs, T-shirts, and little plastic modal ships ........er If someones willing to drop 30 bucks for a racing stripe on a temporary ship....well I say go for it. What a target that said ship would be. Wax on Wax off
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.05.26 16:04:00 - [14] Originally by: Meeogi so asshats...explain why not....Is it because you have trained for years...and don't want others getting to your skill point lvl, in a faster time? I can accept that. ...please explain. I think the chance of major skill point loss, could be funny if it "could" be major. Why should people with real cash be able to pay for more skill points? It takes the competetive edge away.
Meeogi Amarr Lone Star Privateers	Posted - 2009.05.26 16:08:00 - [15] Originally by: Lear Hepburn Originally by: Meeogi so asshats...explain why not....Is it because you have trained for years...and don't want others getting to your skill point lvl, in a faster time? I can accept that. ...please explain. I think the chance of major skill point loss, could be funny if it "could" be major. Why should people with real cash be able to pay for more skill points? It takes the competetive edge away. Why should people with cash be able to buy plexes for Game Isk...? they already buy .."fully Trained toons with real cash....did you forget that? Also If said remap device......dropped in a loot from a nice suicide gank...would you not use it?....I would laugh my ass off. Wax on Wax off
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.05.26 16:12:00 - [16] Originally by: Meeogi Why should people with cash be able to buy plexes for Game Isk...? they already buy .."fully Trained toons with real cash....did you forget that? People who are good at making ISK buy plex. It's a way for people to play the game for free. As I understand it buying toons is against the EULA. Quote: Also If said remap device......dropped in a loot from a nice suicide gank...would you not use it?....I would laugh my ass off. Hypothetical - it doesn't exist and would be massively overpowered if it did. I'd probably sell it for a fortune TBH.
Meeogi Amarr Lone Star Privateers	Posted - 2009.05.26 16:13:00 - [17] Originally by: Jack Gilligan Originally by: Steve Cain A PLEX is one thing but when you start to sell other things for cash you're only 1 step away from selling custom colors and go faster stripes for ships.. This. Next thing you know they are selling a "trading card game" with "expansions" with random cards for in game items that are exclusive to it, and other horrors that unethical publishers like SOE have tried. A better solution would be to make a "respec device" that is manufactured in game from some really exotic materials. This way it'd be player based and part of the economy. Another idea would be to "stack penalize" excessive use of these things, ie: the first time you use one after your "free" respec it costs you one device. Every subsequent respec requires you to use more of them (ie: 2 for the second one, 3 for the third, etc) until it resets at your next annual "free" respec. Actually I do like that Idea.....I would like to see it illegal "in Game"...like if a navy caught you with one, it would be a major penalty...like if they were banned in some treaty. Keeping the prices of them extreme...in either way. and making sure they where scarce. If CCP did sell them...they would need to be lootable as well. Wax on Wax off
Meeogi Amarr Lone Star Privateers	Posted - 2009.05.26 16:20:00 - [18] Originally by: Lear Hepburn Originally by: Meeogi Why should people with cash be able to buy plexes for Game Isk...? they already buy .."fully Trained toons with real cash....did you forget that? People who are good at making ISK buy plex. It's a way for people to play the game for free. As I understand it buying toons is against the EULA. Quote: Also If said remap device......dropped in a loot from a nice suicide gank...would you not use it?....I would laugh my ass off. Hypothetical - it doesn't exist and would be massively overpowered if it did. I'd probably sell it for a fortune TBH. Exactly..the people that buy the plex's with isk ..do so from some guy that paid cash for the plex...to sell for isk. I guarantee players every day drop hundreds for plexes to buy characters....cash went in..anyway you look at it. Wax on Wax off
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.05.26 16:28:00 - [19] Originally by: Meeogi Exactly..the people that buy the plex's with isk ..do so from some guy that paid cash for the plex...to sell for isk. I guarantee players every day drop hundreds for plexes to buy characters....cash went in..anyway you look at it. So what? At least that is limited to existing characters rather than increasing the total amount of SP in the game by allowing existing characters to improve at a faster rate. Increase the rate of improvement of character A and you effectively debilitate character B. That's why attribute levels are so important.
Meeogi Amarr Lone Star Privateers	Posted - 2009.05.26 16:50:00 - [20] Originally by: Lear Hepburn Originally by: Meeogi Exactly..the people that buy the plex's with isk ..do so from some guy that paid cash for the plex...to sell for isk. I guarantee players every day drop hundreds for plexes to buy characters....cash went in..anyway you look at it. So what? At least that is limited to existing characters rather than increasing the total amount of SP in the game by allowing existing characters to improve at a faster rate. Increase the rate of improvement of character A and you effectively debilitate character B. That's why attribute levels are so important. I think that you think that the training increase would be insanely fast...it will not be...most players already .."combat wise" go almost full perception and willpower already....you wouldn't be adding any attribute....just able to remap...at a price. Battleship 5 would still take ages to train. ....nothing would be debilitated.....unless you made insta trains or something gay like that. A new player gets 2 free remaps now right at the start anyways, The older players would only be the ones to actually get any good out of it. Wax on Wax off

Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.05.26 17:09:00 - [21] Originally by: Meeogi I think that you think that the training increase would be insanely fast...it will not be...most players already .."combat wise" go almost full perception and willpower already....you wouldn't be adding any attribute....just able to remap...at a price. Battleship 5 would still take ages to train. ....nothing would be debilitated.....unless you made insta trains or something gay like that. A new player gets 2 free remaps now right at the start anyways, The older players would only be the ones to actually get any good out of it. Allowing people to remap at as they need to will make training insanely fast. You can increase your SP gain by 1000SP (from ~1500 to ~2500) an hour by remapping to optimise. That's a 66% increase in SP gain, which converts to a 40% reduction in training time. That reduces BS V from about 30 days to about 17 days - fairly hefty I think. But lets not do hyperbole, lets do the maths. Lets say your avarage player, Player A, trains optimally (2500SP/hr) for 1/3 of the year (and I think I'm being generous) and at a sub-optimal rate for the remainder, say 1900SP/hr. Player B, through your system, manages to train optimally for the whole year. 1 year is 8760 hours. Player A trains at 2500SP/hr for 2920 hours, gaining 7,300,000SP, and at 1900SP/hr for 5840 hours, gaining 11,096,000SP. That's a total of 18,396,000SP for the year. Player B trains at 2500SP/hr for the full 8760 hours, gaining 21,900,000, which is some 3,504,000SP, or almost 20%. That 3.5mil SP also equates to almost 2 months of training time for Player A. I think this is hugely significant.
Meeogi Amarr Lone Star Privateers	Posted - 2009.05.26 19:01:00 - [22] That 3.5mil SP also equates to almost 2 months of training time for Player A. I think this is hugely significant. 2 months is insignificant in eve....also..Most already optimize ...I plan out before I train..with full implants ...I'm already there...as are most serious players....Your argument that it would create an imbalance is also non-existent as the players that bought these would probably buy them for resale....and to afford one with isk...would require quite a few isk'es I'm sure. Your outstanding math only proves that a player could optimize his training...nothing more...there is no "over Power by 3 months...when your training caps" Adding the by chance Skill point penalty would also curb any advantage. Players would be taking a gamble ..anytime they would do this...like rolling the dice.. Players would still do it of course, the "go for it."mentality. Wax on Wax off
Izo Alabaster Friendly Neighbourhood Extortion Company	Posted - 2009.05.26 19:04:00 - [23] @ OP: Hell no. Here's an idea if you want to reallocate your skillpoints: Train the damn skills. Seriously, just train the new skills you want. What a novel concept. Too tough? Buy a new character. Originally by: CCP Nozh Are BS useless in solo combat? The larger ship still has many benefits: * Can fit smaller weapons to fend off smaller targets * More slots allow EW counter measures
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.05.26 19:18:00 - [24] Edited by: Lear Hepburn on 26/05/2009 19:18:20 Originally by: Meeogi Quote: That 3.5mil SP also equates to almost 2 months of training time for Player A. I think this is hugely significant. 2 months is insignificant in eve....also..Most already optimize ...I plan out before I train..with full implants ...I'm already there...as are most serious players....Your argument that it would create an imbalance is also non-existent as the players that bought these would probably buy them for resale....and to afford one with isk...would require quite a few isk'es I'm sure. Your outstanding math only proves that a player could optimize his training...nothing more...there is no "over Power by 3 months...when your training caps" Adding the by chance Skill point penalty would also curb any advantage. Players would be taking a gamble ..anytime they would do this...like rolling the dice.. Players would still do it of course, the "go for it."mentality. Two months is not insignificant over the course of the year. That becomes 4 months over 2 years, 6 months over 3 years and so on. Optimizing for a skill plan is very different to optimizing for a training type. Optimizing for, for example, a well fitted out Marauder will take different skillsets (Electronic, Engineering, Navigation etc), meaning you are optimizing to average about 2,200SP/hr (generously) over the course of a year. Optimising for each time you change skillset allows you to optimise to the full 2,500SP/hr for that full year. This increase is about 15% over what you and "serious" players are doing already, which is still statistically significant, especially when you compare it to "non-serious" players who will not optimise in such a disciplined way. I don't know what a "by chance skill point penalty" is - I don't think you've mentioned it before.
Meeogi Amarr Lone Star Privateers	Posted - 2009.05.26 19:41:00 - [25] Originally by: Lear Hepburn Edited by: Lear Hepburn on 26/05/2009 19:18:20 Originally by: Meeogi Quote: That 3.5mil SP also equates to almost 2 months of training time for Player A. I think this is hugely significant. 2 months is insignificant in eve....also..Most already optimize ...I plan out before I train..with full implants ...I'm already there...as are most serious players....Your argument that it would create an imbalance is also non-existent as the players that bought these would probably buy them for resale....and to afford one with isk...would require quite a few isk'es I'm sure. Your outstanding math only proves that a player could optimize his training...nothing more...there is no "over Power by 3 months...when your training caps" Adding the by chance Skill point penalty would also curb any advantage. Players would be taking a gamble ..anytime they would do this...like rolling the dice.. Players would still do it of course, the "go for it."mentality. Two months is not insignificant over the course of the year. That becomes 4 months over 2 years, 6 months over 3 years and so on. Optimizing for a skill plan is very different to optimizing for a training type. Optimizing for, for example, a well fitted out Marauder will take different skillsets (Electronic, Engineering, Navigation etc), meaning you are optimizing to average about 2,200SP/hr (generously) over the course of a year. Optimising for each time you change skillset allows you to optimise to the full 2,500SP/hr for that full year. This increase is about 15% over what you and "serious" players are doing already, which is still statistically significant, especially when you compare it to "non-serious" players who will not optimise in such a disciplined way. I don't know what a "by chance skill point penalty" is - I don't think you've mentioned it before. It was in the OP.....the "device" would be a illegal item..faction wise...and could in fact backfire..by frying the brain. IE a loss in SP's...or a random attribute...something...but completely by chance...like a dice roll...you can also get lucky 7's...but as stated..it was an idea.....brought here to discuss.... I appreciate your discussion Lear..as others just flamboyantly scream no! ... From the looks of how CCP has added yearly free skill changes...this seems to be the logical next step. Charging for it...could add another route for players that make enough isk for plex game time....they both in effect reward players for grinding that amount of isk. How do you feel about +5's..they can increase your training time substantially as well...for a price. .....I see no difference between the two. Also ..I feel that buying a fully trained toon is far worse..then any argument against this idea. Most of the characters for sale..were trained on alt accounts purely for resale. Wax on Wax off
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.05.26 19:51:00 - [26] Originally by: Meeogi It was in the OP.....the "device" would be a illegal item..faction wise...and could in fact backfire..by frying the brain. IE a loss in SP's...or a random attribute...something...but completely by chance...like a dice roll...you can also get lucky 7's...but as stated..it was an idea.....brought here to discuss.... My bad - I didn't fully get that bit. That it has a drawback is a good thing tbh, but I think it would limit its usefulness dependant on how bad the drawback was. Given the number of carebears in the game I don't think the "go for it" attitude you mentioned is that prevalent. From the looks of how CCP has added yearly free skill changes...this seems to be the logical next step. Charging for it...could add another route for players that make enough isk for plex game time....they both in effect reward players for grinding that amount of isk. Buying such an item for ISK may be a solution, as it keeps the money in-game. I realise that people will simply sell GTCs to get the ISK but there is a damaging effect on the economy when items which have an in-game effect are bought directly with cash. Buying with ISK alleviates that. Quote: How do you feel about +5's..they can increase your training time substantially as well...for a price. .....I see no difference between the two. Again, these are bought with ISK. No problem there. Quote: Also ..I feel that buying a fully trained toon is far worse..then any argument against this idea. Most of the characters for sale..were trained on alt accounts purely for resale. Actually I tend to disagree. Buying toons does not effect the game economy in any real way - the toon existed beforehand, after all. That there are idiots out there who will spend that kind of money on a character they have no idea how to use is beyond me, but that's their choice.


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