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Rudy Gnarl
Gallente
University of Caille
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Posted - 2009.05.28 05:29:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Rudy Gnarl on 28/05/2009 05:29:49
So everything was going just fine, myself and good number of other folks were playing the .o1isk game or close to it. I notice that my order hasn't moved in a day or two so I head back into the region to find out that a few people, 2 or 3 have drastically cut the price of the item - by about 25%. Now let me be very clear here, this is not a module, nor is it an item that any one character can use more than once - these are skill books, ones that originate in LP stores. We are trading in a market hub for the region and one of the biggest hubs in New Eden. Maybe I am just being naive but the price cut just seemed completely unenecessary.
For this item a cut in price like that is not going to increase the frequency with which people buy it, is it? If they need and want this skill they will buy the book, and at the hub, it's not like there are tons of other options to get cheaper versions of the book. These orders weren't just one or two books either, they involved a good amount of stock. I mean these people cut themselves out of a good amount of profit - why cut the margin when it really isn't going to help you move product quicker - I just don't get it. 
With other modules I understand because people will scope them up, use more of them, etc, a cut in price can create more movement - but will it with this kind of item - I just don't think it will. It is a bit frustration. Funny though because I used to hate the .01 isk game when I started trading, now I hate getting undercut like this...
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Am I being targeted, wait, ahh, they're all red now! Why won't it warp, it's not responding. Okay warp to zero. Damn it my pod too. F*****g lag! [lesson learned: log for lag] |
glas mir
Reaction Scientific
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Posted - 2009.05.28 05:46:00 -
[2]
skill books that originate in LP stores and you are wondering why someone undercut your "healthy" margins? Just that fact that it upsets you might be enough of a reason. I'm guessing gallente drone spec in dodixie, and if that's the case, you had it coming they've been too high for a while.
 Quote:
why cut the margin when it really isn't going to help you move product quicker
so demand is inelastic? I don't buy it.
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Kelly Terror
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Posted - 2009.05.28 05:52:00 -
[3]
So you were fighting the .01 isk war, and then someone brought out the big guns and cut the profit and fun out of the fight? All is fair in love and isk war, man. Unnecessary? Maybe. But here's what they are thinking: "Either I'm going to sell mine first, or he is going to take a major price cut to keep up." Obviously a new seller or just impatient or both. Looks like you got a choice to make. Either let him get his product out or drop all possibility of major profit and keep the war going. Looks like he just drew a line in the sand. It's actually a common way to beat out the margin traders who can't afford to sell too low or lose money. Good luck.
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Chaos Dreams
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Posted - 2009.05.28 06:02:00 -
[4]
There's a chance you're not even competing with another trader. Could be some mission runner looked in his journal and realized he had several hundred thousand unspent LP's. He then went, "Damn, I got spend these." There's only a market for so much ammo at any one time, and if he spent it ALL on ammo he might still be selling it next time his LP store gets high. If you don't want to mess around trying to get tags, there's only so many things you can spend your LP's on. It's mostly ammo, implants, and books.
So maybe they decided to give skillbooks a try, but didn't want to play around with the .01 ISK game, especially since they may not be able to modify them remotely. So they just undercut by a large margin and hope it sells before they have to worry about updating.
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Lost Hamster
Serenity and Unicum Hungarian Corp
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Posted - 2009.05.28 06:26:00 -
[5]
Or just buy the low price skill book, and put it back to the market with reasonable price. 
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Frenden Dax
Dax Acquisitions
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Posted - 2009.05.28 06:44:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Lost Hamster
Or just buy the low price skill book, and put it back to the market with reasonable price.
The caveat there is that the original seller might simply list more inventory; after all, he's a mission-runner and obviously doesn't value his LP very highly. If someone buys out his whole stock, well, hot damn! He's going to list more.
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Tsubutai
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Posted - 2009.05.28 07:41:00 -
[7]
Given the opportunity, I will always halve my margins in order to double my turnover.
(Hint: 1.4*1.4 > 1.8)
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Kes Yogaila
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.05.28 07:43:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Kes Yogaila on 28/05/2009 07:43:07
Most people are stupid, eve players are no exception. This is the proof.
People that undercut by more than 1 isk are either morons or expert market manipulators, the ratio being about 500:1.
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Sarina Berghil
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Posted - 2009.05.28 08:24:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Kes Yogaila
Edited by: Kes Yogaila on 28/05/2009 07:43:07
Most people are stupid, eve players are no exception. This is the proof.
People that undercut by more than 1 isk are either morons or expert market manipulators, the ratio being about 500:1.
Or they are just average non-trading players that need to trade stuff once in a while, but don't have time to baby-sit orders 24/7.
Time isn't free. Playing the 1 cent game costs money. If someone can get half the profit with only a few seconds spent, it might be a good deal.
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Marko box
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Posted - 2009.05.28 09:09:00 -
[10]
Maybe he was playing the card that you would buy him out. I tend to do it on items with high turnover. If someone undercuts me by more than 15% i try to buy his stock and relist it at my price. Yes its sometimes risky but i moust casses it saves me of trouble of restocking that item.
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Robert Kiyosaki
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Posted - 2009.05.28 09:43:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Kes Yogaila
People that undercut by more than 1 isk are either morons or expert market manipulators, the ratio being about 500:1.
If that's what an accomplished expert like you says, then I'm a moron. And proud of it.
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Purest Heart
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Posted - 2009.05.28 10:10:00 -
[12]
Something like this happened to me in Amarr, it was with a T2 module however.
Overnight someone just dumped a load on the market at a 300k undercut despite them selling in large volumes in a steady manner anyway.
I suppose he/she was expecting everyone else to collapse and not be able to cover the loss, however everyone has just met him and started the isk war again.
Seems like a really stupid waste of money to me tbh...
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Jurinak
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Posted - 2009.05.28 11:35:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Kes Yogaila
Edited by: Kes Yogaila on 28/05/2009 07:43:07
Most people are stupid, eve players are no exception. This is the proof.
People that undercut by more than 1 isk are either morons or expert market manipulators, the ratio being about 500:1.
sry, you are wrong, there are tons of reasons not to play the 0.01 isk game. Market manipulation is just one
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Anson Hoffmanta
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Posted - 2009.05.28 12:17:00 -
[14]
I've lately been hit by the Robin Hoods of EVE who desire nothing more than to slash their own margins and sell to mission grinders at low prices.
At least I hope they're Robin Hoods, because the alternative of utter morons is just a bit too depressing to come to terms with.
Perhaps economic rationality is not something to expect on, above all, an internet computer game economy.
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Biruni Khan
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Posted - 2009.05.28 12:24:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Anson Hoffmanta
I've lately been hit by the Robin Hoods of EVE who desire nothing more than to slash their own margins and sell to mission grinders at low prices.
At least I hope they're Robin Hoods, because the alternative of utter morons is just a bit too depressing to come to terms with.
Perhaps economic rationality is not something to expect on, above all, an internet computer game economy.
Is it at all feasible that they're trying to drive competition out of the market so they can then raise their prices and have all of the sales?
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2009.05.28 12:42:00 -
[16]
Oh look another one of these threads! 
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.05.28 12:46:00 -
[17]
I see a lot of beaten people here.
Hint: in market nothing is what it looks like.
Even the blatant moron could be less moron than you believe he is.
From purposedly crashing markets to driving lemming wars, from inventory dumps to producers / missioneers dumping stuff at a loss than they'd have if they waited for longer (and this is a calculated loss). From market denial to economy denial (very hard to see, it's done in low and 0.0 sec)... there's 1000 and 1000 different way to lose money so that you lose more, gain less, go away or even just go cry on the forums. It's 100% purest PvP, only issue there are no public killboards for market.
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Jagga Spikes
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.05.28 13:06:00 -
[18]
market... place where score is kept in your wallet
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Anson Hoffmanta
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Posted - 2009.05.28 14:30:00 -
[19]
Quote:
Is it at all feasible that they're trying to drive competition out of the market so they can then raise their prices and have all of the sales?
Woah I didn't think of the possibility of market manipulation or perhaps the much vaunted "Market PVP". Believe it or not people are not "whining" at the godlike market pupiteers pulling strings out of sight and comprehension of the average trader; there *are* literally morons who clog the markets with illogical margin cuts, and this *is* a product of internet stupidity in the most part.
Rather than attempt the fashionable (and wholeheartedly predictible) response of YOU GOT PLAYED BY GODS OF TRADE[tm], consider that these events have occured more frequently as the player base grows in size. Yes, the chance that this is due to irrational, inexperianced traders who form part of the new influx of players is the more likely circumstance than the tiring claim of Market manipulation round every single corner.
I, and others who post regarding this recent trend, are aware of how manipulations look, and of the possibility that the market works on different levels concerning both "standard" trading and market manipulations.
The quantities and price ranges of the markets concerned are always accessable, in my experiance, by those who I'd consider to still suffer from inexperiance and be prone to irrational market crashing. To conclude my point, these different factors I mentioned are reasonably considered when posting.
It would be pleasant if the (dare I say) lemmings won't be so quick to zerg posts with predictable retorts before considering that others may indeed have considered the variables too. 
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Zezzix
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Posted - 2009.05.28 14:56:00 -
[20]
If you're talking about the various Connections skillbooks, the price is actually correcting itself (and the other books too, after the Apoc came out with the new skill system). About 2 months ago Military Connections was selling in Jita for approx 15mil (+/- 1mill) and retailing in Rens (where I'm guessing your hub is) for 19 to 21mil. Bureaucratic and the others were selling for 26 to 28mill, with occasional fluctuations. Then there was a sudden price spike over a three day period. All the low orders were bought out and the prices systematically raised into the 30mill (for the cheaper books) to 45mill range. I had a bunch of books I had bought shortly before the spike and I initially made serious bank. But the buy prices went up too, so I left it alone. I checked again this weekend and the prices are almost back to normal. The real indicator to me is that the buy prices have sunk back into the mid-teens for most of those books. I think you're just experiencing the down side of an overinflated market.
Or maybe its something else. Just a theory. You might also consider that initial demand has subsided as everyone has already trained up their characters for the new skill system. Now its back to regular demand. Or maybe not. Who knows? |
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Lunatic Shakhid
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Posted - 2009.05.28 16:04:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Anson Hoffmanta
Quote:
there *are* literally morons who clog the markets with illogical margin cuts, and this *is* a product of internet stupidity in the most part.
If the margin cuts were "illogical" then the stock would be bought out by a trader who remarkets them at a more "logical" margin. They haven't been bought out, thus they are not illogical.
Traders will often slash prices on a particular product if it is slow moving in order to gain liquidity for a faster moving bargain elsewhere.
I've often been happy to take a 10% loss on a product in order to free up the cash for a 20% profit elsewhere.
But you've thought of all that already coz you're the richest player in Eve and you've won the game.
congrats.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.05.28 17:26:00 -
[22]
Quote:
Believe it or not people are not "whining" at the godlike market pupiteers pulling strings out of sight and comprehension of the average trader; there *are* literally morons who clog the markets with illogical margin cuts, and this *is* a product of internet stupidity in the most part
See, you call them morons, we call them "customers".
They waste trillions like morons? They are better customers for the trader who knows how to catch the opportunity to deal with them.
Quote:
If the margin cuts were "illogical" then the stock would be bought out by a trader who remarkets them at a more "logical" margin. They haven't been bought out, thus they are not illogical.
Traders will often slash prices on a particular product if it is slow moving in order to gain liquidity for a faster moving bargain elsewhere.
I've often been happy to take a 10% loss on a product in order to free up the cash for a 20% profit elsewhere.
But you've thought of all that already coz you're the richest player in Eve and you've won the game
Exactly
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Bonhomme Carnaval
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Posted - 2009.05.28 23:36:00 -
[23]
I do that.
Whenever I find a large margin item with too much competition (many orders updated in the last 24 hours), I simply take a big dump on their profits like this. It makes me laugh and be happy for quite a while after it, making it more than worthwhile for me.
I encourage you to do the same, you'll see it's funny as hell even if you rarely get to hear their whines (except in this case I guess). You just know someone out there is raging over his computer like a leet-speaking nerd.  |
Rudy Gnarl
Gallente
University of Caille
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Posted - 2009.05.29 00:57:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Bonhomme Carnaval
I do that.
Whenever I find a large margin item with too much competition (many orders updated in the last 24 hours), I simply take a big dump on their profits like this. It makes me laugh and be happy for quite a while after it, making it more than worthwhile for me.
I encourage you to do the same, you'll see it's funny as hell even if you rarely get to hear their whines (except in this case I guess). You just know someone out there is raging over his computer like a leet-speaking nerd.
 Okay I can dig it. I love the responses. It's all good, I just got frustrated which I guess could have been the point.
Marko box this item does not have a very high turn over, it simply doesn't. And I would think depending on the price that the demand would be pretty inelastic when compared to other items, but maybe Im just being naive, which I admitted to in the OP.
Zezzix, they're not any of those books. Chaos Dreams you are probably right. Right after I posted though I realized it was probably someone who had "bought" the books with their LP and are simply playing their hand. I was just hoping to make my exorbitant profits and I will have to settle for less, which is fine.
The best thing of all of this is the response, I almost didn't post, thinking this is simply too common a thing to post about. But I am grateful that there is a forum for this kind of discussion and simple ability to express myself. Thank you! 
---
Am I being targeted, wait, ahh, they're all red now! Why won't it warp, it's not responding. Okay warp to zero. Damn it my pod too. F*****g lag! [lesson learned: log for lag] |
Ghoest
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Posted - 2009.05.29 01:31:00 -
[25]
If its a mission runner he wants his money now and doesnt want to play the 1 isk game
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Dear Abby
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Posted - 2009.05.29 03:17:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Kes Yogaila
Edited by: Kes Yogaila on 28/05/2009 07:43:07
Most people are stupid, eve players are no exception. This is the proof.
People that undercut by more than 1 isk are either morons or expert market manipulators, the ratio being about 500:1.
I find that if I have to spend time dealing with people that undercut by 1 isk I'll rethink my price and set it to my minimum and be done with it. I dont always do that but on low margin stuff im trying to get rid of not worth the time to play a game - dump it and free up the sales slot.
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2009.05.29 09:09:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Rudy Gnarl
Okay I can dig it. I love the responses. It's all good, I just got frustrated which I guess could have been the point.
Marko box this item does not have a very high turn over, it simply doesn't. And I would think depending on the price that the demand would be pretty inelastic when compared to other items, but maybe Im just being naive, which I admitted to in the OP.
Zezzix, they're not any of those books. Chaos Dreams you are probably right. Right after I posted though I realized it was probably someone who had "bought" the books with their LP and are simply playing their hand. I was just hoping to make my exorbitant profits and I will have to settle for less, which is fine.
The best thing of all of this is the response, I almost didn't post, thinking this is simply too common a thing to post about. But I am grateful that there is a forum for this kind of discussion and simple ability to express myself. Thank you!
My God. I'm shocked.
Big congrats to you.
I know my reply earlier was unconstructive and trolling, but like you I've been frustrated with these threads cropping up over and over.
I think you're the only person who's posted one of these threads and taken the responses exactly for what they are, the reasons people dump the price by more than 1 isk, not challenges to say that your way of playing the game is the wrong way, and neither did you try and tell those people that their reasons were wrong either.
If you're trying to achieve something through a certain means, then reason X may be wrong and reason Y may be right, but if you're trying to achieve it through a different means, or achieve something completely different in the same arena, then reason Y may be wrong and reason X may be right. Either way, there's no real right or wrong way to play the game.
Regardless, congratulations on being the first person I've seen realise this.
Now if only everyone else who's posted this topic could see this...
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Dingo Skullcrusher
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Posted - 2009.05.29 11:05:00 -
[28]
there is - actually - a highsec region in eve with a pretty busy market hub, where you don't have npc seeded skillbooks (in the WHOLE region).
people making a ton of isk there selling overpriced skills for years. but the market has become more competitive and busy lately.
so if you refer to this not-to-be-named region, guess its just aggressive price adjustment to push out competition.
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Juno Imaginos
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Posted - 2009.05.29 11:17:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Kes Yogaila
Most people are stupid, eve players are no exception. This is the proof. People that undercut by more than 1 isk are either morons or expert market manipulators, the ratio being about 500:1.
I'm a small trader and usually my orders are small lots of fairly high volume, high margin items. For me it's important to get the sells quickly so I can free the slot and reinvest the money.
Because of this I quite often undercut by more than 1 isk when there are big orders competing with me. My logic (however illogical it may be) is that since I have lots of margin to use, I can usually get the big orders to leave me alone by cutting in deep into their margin.
It usually isn't in their interest to chase my few items down and if I get a few small isk cutters following me, then that's fine by me as the volume should sell us all out. And this saves me a lot of time juggling orders for marginally improved profits.
Granted, this is a very different situation from the OPs problem, but you claiming that only idiots undercut by more than 1 isk doesn't seem that insightful to me. |
Jotobar
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Posted - 2009.05.29 14:30:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Originally by: Rudy Gnarl
Okay I can dig it. I love the responses. It's all good, I just got frustrated which I guess could have been the point.
Marko box this item does not have a very high turn over, it simply doesn't. And I would think depending on the price that the demand would be pretty inelastic when compared to other items, but maybe Im just being naive, which I admitted to in the OP.
Zezzix, they're not any of those books. Chaos Dreams you are probably right. Right after I posted though I realized it was probably someone who had "bought" the books with their LP and are simply playing their hand. I was just hoping to make my exorbitant profits and I will have to settle for less, which is fine.
The best thing of all of this is the response, I almost didn't post, thinking this is simply too common a thing to post about. But I am grateful that there is a forum for this kind of discussion and simple ability to express myself. Thank you!
My God. I'm shocked.
Big congrats to you.
I know my reply earlier was unconstructive and trolling, but like you I've been frustrated with these threads cropping up over and over.
I think you're the only person who's posted one of these threads and taken the responses exactly for what they are, the reasons people dump the price by more than 1 isk, not challenges to say that your way of playing the game is the wrong way, and neither did you try and tell those people that their reasons were wrong either.
If you're trying to achieve something through a certain means, then reason X may be wrong and reason Y may be right, but if you're trying to achieve it through a different means, or achieve something completely different in the same arena, then reason Y may be wrong and reason X may be right. Either way, there's no real right or wrong way to play the game.
Regardless, congratulations on being the first person I've seen realise this.
Now if only everyone else who's posted this topic could see this...
I agree, this one should be front page news somewhere.
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