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Ulstan
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Posted - 2009.05.29 15:50:00 -
[31]
Originally by: glas mir
so demand is inelastic? I don't buy it.
For skill books? I'd say yes. I've never ever bought a skill book just because it was cheap and I've never turned down a skill book I wanted because it was 'too expensive'.
Even for the encryption skill books, I think it was primarily the supply and price that changed...you HAVE to have certain skill books to do certain things, that's fairly inelastic.
Now, to the undercutting issue...
It's true that many people undercut more than they 'need' to.
This isn't just stupidity on their parts.
They may be hoping that someone will buy up their stuff and resell it. This makes very good sense for them if they
(a) want to get more money out of it than the buy orders (b) don't have time to sit around doing the 0.01 isk game
So, just do that. Buy their stuff that is 25% too cheap and relist it. Easy profit for you. Unless you suspect the cost is 'too high' and there are lots of people with stocks of the item sitting around who can keep throwing them on the market cheaply. In which case the 25% lower price isn't him undercutting by too much, but returning the price to more of a market equilibrium.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2009.05.29 15:54:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Biruni Khan Is it at all feasible that they're trying to drive competition out of the market so they can then raise their prices and have all of the sales?
People say this a lot, and I just don't really see it happening.
The difference between me being 'driven out' of a market and being back in the market is all of 5s spent updating an order.
There's no real way to drive someone out of the market for anything resembling long term.
You can kill the profit margin on an item. Congrats. When that happens, I leave my order as it was, and just keep checking back in. If the other guy has unkilled the profit margin, I start updating my order. If he hasn't unkilled it, I leave my order alone.
Competition is typically only driven out of a market for exactly as long as it's not worth competing in.
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Dranakolys
Gallente Theurgy
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Posted - 2009.05.29 16:07:00 -
[33]
Originally by: glas mir
so demand is inelastic? I don't buy it.
For the most part, the market in eve is very inelastic.
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Mapo Runt
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Posted - 2009.05.29 17:33:00 -
[34]
I love reading these threads and the reasoning behind an "illogical" market cut. The ones screaming "illogical" and "unnecessary" are the ones that suddenly lost out on their profit or are unwilling to go that low. Once you've come here and declared X cut is "illogical," you have lost the market pew pew.
Unless your a one-stock pony, one particular item suddenly losing value is of no concern and should not cause you heartache. However, if you put all your investment iskies into one item that suddenly loses value, then you've learned a very valuable lesson. Either diversify or move your product to another market area (create alts and trial accounts if you don't want to travel there yourself).
Heck, on several occasions I will undercut certain products to a loss in order to see who lemmings down and then purchase their stock. Coming here to declare that someone is illogical is a fallacy in itself as the person that priced the item likely has a very logical reason behind that pricing; your just not privy to that reasoning.
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Dariah Stardweller
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Posted - 2009.05.29 19:48:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Kes Yogaila Edited by: Kes Yogaila on 28/05/2009 07:43:07 Most people are stupid, eve players are no exception. This is the proof. People that undercut by more than 1 isk are either morons or expert market manipulators, the ratio being about 500:1.
Sad to say but this post proves you're not the brightest light yourself, might wanna tune it down a little
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Zezzix
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Posted - 2009.05.29 19:50:00 -
[36]
I agree about the whole "illogical/stupid" thing. It isn't either one. Sometimes I want to sell something fairly quickly but don't like the buy offer. If the volume seems low or the avg price is closer to the buy than the sell (indicating most of the volume is sales into buy orders), I just put up the order for something roughly halfway between the two. People looking to buy quick see a deal and pick it up (or they are other sellers picking up low sell orders [thanks guys!]). Of course I always check to see what the trend has been to determine if its a momentary low buy or high sell. |
zombeee
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.05.29 20:51:00 -
[37]
Lately I wanted to get back isk invested in trade and manufacture, quickly. I just cut my margins to point where I just didn't lose anything. Some were probably ****ed but intelligent enough to just wait for my stock to sell.
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Kalorned
Minmatar Psychedelic Llamas
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Posted - 2009.05.29 21:15:00 -
[38]
I know exactly what item the OP is referring to, as I also was a part of the .01 isk war that was going on over it for a while. Just to supply some more details for perspective, the average sell order quantity for this book was somewhere between 10-40. When I checked the market after this event occurred, the guy had dropped about 25x the average quantity all at once, with the aforementioned 25% cut in profit. It made me sad, for about 2 minutes, after which I simply relisted .01 isk under him and continued playing the .01 isk game. Even if it was deemed a smart move, buying up his entire inventory would be massively expensive, and not something I would be willing to risk.
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Rudy Gnarl
Gallente University of Caille
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Posted - 2009.05.30 01:55:00 -
[39]
Kylar Renpurs - Thanks! Jotobar - Thank you!
Originally by: Dingo Skullcrusher there is - actually - a highsec region in eve with a pretty busy market hub, where you don't have npc seeded skillbooks (in the WHOLE region).
people making a ton of isk there selling overpriced skills for years. but the market has become more competitive and busy lately.
so if you refer to this not-to-be-named region, guess its just aggressive price adjustment to push out competition.
Well I might have to find this region - that's not were I'm at. That sounds pretty juicy for traders though.
Juno - that makes sense. I can see that.
Originally by: Ulstan Edited by: Ulstan on 29/05/2009 15:58:27
Originally by: glas mir
so demand is inelastic? I don't buy it.
For skill books? I'd say yes. I've never ever bought a skill book just because it was cheap and I've never turned down a skill book I wanted because it was 'too expensive'.
Even for the encryption skill books, I think it was primarily the supply and price that changed...you HAVE to have certain skill books to do certain things, that's fairly inelastic.
Thank you. This is exactly what I was trying to say but I just didn't have the right words.
Originally by: Ulstan
Now, to the undercutting issue...
It's true that many people undercut more than they 'need' to.
This isn't just stupidity on their parts.
They may be hoping that someone will buy up their stuff and resell it. This makes very good sense for them if they
(a) want to get more money out of it than the buy orders (b) don't have time to sit around doing the 0.01 isk game
So, just do that. Buy their stuff that is 25% too cheap and relist it. Easy profit for you. I'd guess this happens thosuands of times a day in Jita.
Makes sense.
Originally by: Ulstan Now, if you suspect the current cost is 'too high' and there are lots of people with stocks of the item sitting around who can keep throwing them on the market cheaply when they see the nice margins and decide not to buy and relist but rather match his new price... In this case the 25% lower price isn't him undercutting by too much, but returning the price to more of a market equilibrium.
I don't want to admit it, but I think my prices are overpriced. I do know that I am making about 100% profit - double on my investment, so the undercut (cutting out about 50% of my profit) isn't the end of world, it still leaves me with a sell order making about 50% profit - pretty nice eh?
Originally by: Dranakolys
Originally by: glas mir
so demand is inelastic? I don't buy it.
For the most part, the market in eve is very inelastic.
Interesting. Not sure if I think, or see from my little bit of experience, that all of eve demand is inelastic. Part of it might be that isk is simply about time not always opportunity, as far as missions and such - money continues to pour in and maybe that allows people to simply buy and buy and buy - no matter what the price.
Originally by: Zezzix I agree about the whole "illogical/stupid" thing. It isn't either one. Sometimes I want to sell something fairly quickly but don't like the buy offer. If the volume seems low or the avg price is closer to the buy than the sell (indicating most of the volume is sales into buy orders), I just put up the order for something roughly halfway between the two. People looking to buy quick see a deal and pick it up (or they are other sellers picking up low sell orders [thanks guys!]). Of course I always check to see what the trend has been to determine if its a momentary low buy or high sell.
Funny, this is exactly how I started, getting to know the market. It works really well. I use it though to buy things at less than the current sell order, for buying ships sometimes, or expensive implants if time is really an issue for me - need to have it!!! Works really well as long as you don't need a lot of supply at that price.
--- Am I being targeted, wait, ahh, they're all red now! Why won't it warp, it's not responding. Okay warp to zero. Damn it my pod too. F*****g lag! [lesson learned: log for lag] |
Rudy Gnarl
Gallente University of Caille
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Posted - 2009.05.30 01:58:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Kalorned I know exactly what item the OP is referring to, as I also was a part of the .01 isk war that was going on over it for a while. Just to supply some more details for perspective, the average sell order quantity for this book was somewhere between 10-40. When I checked the market after this event occurred, the guy had dropped about 25x the average quantity all at once, with the aforementioned 25% cut in profit. It made me sad, for about 2 minutes, after which I simply relisted .01 isk under him and continued playing the .01 isk game. Even if it was deemed a smart move, buying up his entire inventory would be massively expensive, and not something I would be willing to risk.
I'm not sure if we are talking about the same book, but I do understand what you are saying. And I agree, at this point with my somewhat overpriced order it would not have been wise to have bought up his order - but there are times that buying up the low sell order makes sense.
--- Am I being targeted, wait, ahh, they're all red now! Why won't it warp, it's not responding. Okay warp to zero. Damn it my pod too. F*****g lag! [lesson learned: log for lag] |
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Hawkcrest
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Posted - 2009.05.30 04:00:00 -
[41]
I was reading this and wondered if the perpetrator might not be myself and my team. Facts are recently we have had the luck being a pvp oriented team of killing 2 different covert ops ships carrying around 1200 Mining Director Skill books which we arent about to use anytime soon. So we went out on the market and undercut everyone :-)
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Rudy Gnarl
Gallente University of Caille
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Posted - 2009.05.30 04:42:00 -
[42]
Never thought about the fact that someone could simply have salvaged market goods fomr a PvP encounter - forgot all about that aspect.
I would also like to add a bit about my impression of EVE and our community. My buddies who introduced me to EVE had played a lot of other MMOs before this one. This is my first. They explained to me that EVE was different, and in learning the game (and I mean learning, because I am still learning about even the interface everyday and it has almost been a year of playing) I have to say that this is a great community. Even in rl forums trolling and simply ignorant ranting comments are far to often the norm - where as here in EVE I have found that the forums are actually a place for discussion. I have to say I am impressed and thankfully excited to be a part of the EVE community. --- Am I being targeted, wait, ahh, they're all red now! Why won't it warp, it's not responding. Okay warp to zero. Damn it my pod too. F*****g lag! [lesson learned: log for lag] |
Shade Millith
International House of PWNCakes Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.05.30 07:10:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Rudy Gnarl Edited by: Rudy Gnarl on 28/05/2009 05:29:49 So everything was going just fine, myself and good number of other folks were playing the .o1isk game or close to it. I notice that my order hasn't moved in a day or two so I head back into the region to find out that a few people, 2 or 3 have drastically cut the price of the item - by about 25%.
I've done this once or twice, bought a whole bunch of cheap scripts and brought them to Jita, had a price war for about 20 mins, got bored, and undercut him by half with 15,000 of them still to go, for still more than what I bought them for.
Caused quite a drop in the price. Funny as hell. --------------------------------------------
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Adrimar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.05.30 10:39:00 -
[44]
I think people have to remember that not everybody has the time or inclination to indulge in .01 isk price battles.
These people will go for large price cuts in the hope that the other side will set back, let the (smaller) stock sell in order to not have the market price crash. Of course this normally doesn't work as the .01 isk people will follow the price down.
This leads to the second type of person who, in a niche market only, will try to cause the price to drop in order to discourage others from entering. This often means that the price will follow a cycle with it being very low during the weekends and hitting the high around wednesday/thursday evening. Very hard to do and quite often it only takes one other person to break the cycle and keep the price low for an unwanted length of time.
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Dasfry
Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.30 11:55:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Lunatic Shakhid I've often been happy to take a 10% loss on a product in order to free up the cash for a 20% profit elsewhere.
100% agree, I personally am willing to take a loss in order to make a profit elsewhere as well.
If I find that, an item is moving slowly, or I find myself consistently under priced, or I've researched a better investment elsewhere.
I will slash the price to clearance my stock in order to liquidate and move the funds to a healthier investment.
time is money. *********** Dasfry, Director Demio's Corporation
Military Tactics |
glas mir
Reaction Scientific
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Posted - 2009.05.30 16:15:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Ulstan
Originally by: glas mir
so demand is inelastic? I don't buy it.
For skill books? I'd say yes. I've never ever bought a skill book just because it was cheap and I've never turned down a skill book I wanted because it was 'too expensive' .
Even for the encryption skill books, I think it was primarily the supply and price that changed...you HAVE to have certain skill books to do certain things, that's fairly inelastic.
You are arguing that demand within all of eve for these LP skillbooks is relatively inelastic and I would agree. But you are forgetting regional traders. I have moved them before so I can tell you my demand for them is definitely influenced by price. Also what if someone undercuts 4 jumps away, some of the people will go the 4 jumps and some won't depending on the price difference. Demand within a specific system is very dependent on price.
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Rudy Gnarl
Gallente University of Caille
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Posted - 2009.05.30 19:33:00 -
[47]
I totally agree that demand within the system is dependent on price. Even saying that though I live for the four or five jumps away from lower prices. Most people, well not sure if it's most, but a good deal of people will pay 50-75% more simply to not leave their station or system. I love it!
I move them all over too - that's what makes them worth more, people's willingness to not move. --- Am I being targeted, wait, ahh, they're all red now! Why won't it warp, it's not responding. Okay warp to zero. Damn it my pod too. F*****g lag! [lesson learned: log for lag] |
Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.05.31 00:18:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Rudy Gnarl Edited by: Rudy Gnarl on 28/05/2009 05:29:49 So everything was going just fine, myself and good number of other folks were playing the .o1isk game or close to it. I notice that my order hasn't moved in a day or two so I head back into the region to find out that a few people, 2 or 3 have drastically cut the price of the item - by about 25%. Now let me be very clear here, this is not a module, nor is it an item that any one character can use more than once - these are skill books, ones that originate in LP stores. We are trading in a market hub for the region and one of the biggest hubs in New Eden. Maybe I am just being naive but the price cut just seemed completely unenecessary.
For this item a cut in price like that is not going to increase the frequency with which people buy it, is it? If they need and want this skill they will buy the book, and at the hub, it's not like there are tons of other options to get cheaper versions of the book. These orders weren't just one or two books either, they involved a good amount of stock. I mean these people cut themselves out of a good amount of profit - why cut the margin when it really isn't going to help you move product quicker - I just don't get it.
With other modules I understand because people will scope them up, use more of them, etc, a cut in price can create more movement - but will it with this kind of item - I just don't think it will. It is a bit frustration. Funny though because I used to hate the .01 isk game when I started trading, now I hate getting undercut like this...
It's incredibly simple. You had a cash cow (Assuming someone purchased them, of course). He either
a) wanted to stimulate demand by lowering the price, or
b) Wanted to cut profit margins so that you and others would GTFO out of his market so that he didn't have to do stupid .01 ISK games so much. Or,
c) both.
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Rudy Gnarl
Gallente University of Caille
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Posted - 2009.06.01 03:50:00 -
[49]
Yeah. But I live off of cash cows. Slow burning cash cows!
If the scenario above was correct he definitely accomplished his second goal, as I did adjust my active order to meet his price, but my surplus will be waiting for the price to rise back up to it's previous glory - which it eventually will. --- Am I being targeted, wait, ahh, they're all red now! Why won't it warp, it's not responding. Okay warp to zero. Damn it my pod too. F*****g lag! [lesson learned: log for lag] |
Wolfwinter
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Posted - 2009.06.01 03:58:00 -
[50]
to me the 0.01 isk war is a ******ed way to spend your time. Most of these people Im sure use some sort of bot to do this (jita for example has price changes per minute in the 0.01 isk..unrealistic. Normally when i sell things i sell them at a bigger discount than whats already listed, meaning mine sells while everyone still has theirs gathering dust
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dr doooo
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Posted - 2009.06.01 06:56:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Bonhomme Carnaval I do that.
Whenever I find a large margin item with too much competition (many orders updated in the last 24 hours), I simply take a big dump on their profits like this. It makes me laugh and be happy for quite a while after it, making it more than worthwhile for me.
I encourage you to do the same, you'll see it's funny as hell even if you rarely get to hear their whines (except in this case I guess). You just know someone out there is raging over his computer like a leet-speaking nerd.
Maybe.. but the chances are they probably care less about it than the leet-speaking nerd manically laughing over the imagined effects of his actions
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altinateee
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Posted - 2009.06.01 10:50:00 -
[52]
Why play the 0.01 isk game? Tis pointless.
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Ms Delerium
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Posted - 2009.06.01 14:00:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Ms Delerium on 01/06/2009 14:02:46 Oh fresh tears in the morning... feels like fresh Napalm
Your crying have been worth my 300mil isk loss. I earnt these iskies with eve poker in thanks to a lucky hand. While you probably must grind lvl4 missions for 3hours a day the next month to recover your direct and indirect losses. Have fun and remember me while pressing F1-F8 on those virtual red crosses on a squizofrenial basis till you got mad, again.
Now you can keep trading these books I won't disturb you any more... well, who knows?
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2009.06.01 17:28:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Ms Delerium
Your crying have been worth my 300mil isk loss.
Hey now. I will cry much louder and in more entertaining fashion for less.
Mail me a mere 200m and I will show you.
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Marzaris Onbarny
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Posted - 2009.06.02 02:17:00 -
[55]
Another thing to consider is they are leaving the game, not EVE , just that item. I save up the lps then get the items in a batch. Then when I have sold 8 of 10 I use the last two to lower the price down towards that of the buy orders. WHY? because I dont want other sellers looking at the market and chooseing to sell the same item, and it will be another 1 or 2 months before I search for the next item to sell.
The market is about getting taller, for the most part that means climbing the ladder faster but sometimes, its all about taking out your friends / enemies at the knees.
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cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2009.06.02 08:22:00 -
[56]
Destroying inefficient markets is fun.
If I see an opportunity where an item has a ridiculous profit, it is so easy to dump a huge quantity into that market. Sure you don't make as much "PER ITEM" as the guys playing 0.1ISK, but you make a huge profit for minimal effort.
Then you leave and look for other examples.
I can't stand 0.1 ISK games but I do love market destruction for profit.
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big fluf
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Posted - 2009.06.02 18:59:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Kes Yogaila Edited by: Kes Yogaila on 28/05/2009 07:43:07 Most people are stupid, eve players are no exception. This is the proof. People that undercut by more than 1 isk are either morons or expert market manipulators, the ratio being about 500:1.
I disagree. I sometime do the cut rate thing. because you have to find that balance point of profit and volume.
if I cut my rate, you MIGHT decide not to follow me. espessially if your the .01 isk every 10 mins guy.
you beat me by .01 isk a few times in a row, and I ahve to start swinging a bigger bat. so I will cut my rate to 1/2 the margin, if you follow I will do it again.
At the end of the day, I will end up selling all my stuff, making my money and walkign on to the next project, while you still trying to may 100% profit on 4 units of a 1000 isk item.
FYI- just cause people don't work like you do doesn't make them idiots, it means they have different priorityies.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.06.02 19:10:00 -
[58]
I do it because I know what price my items will move at eventually and what timeline they will move at. Often I am the one dictating when I will sell my product... not anyone else.
As an example...I buy up a huge chunk of isotopes and then I list those for sale at X price which may often be well below what the current rate is. Matters not for me what current trend is, just that the end result is X units moved at Y price by Z time. |
Falkrich Swifthand
Caldari eNinjas Incorporated
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Posted - 2009.06.03 13:46:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Falkrich Swifthand on 03/06/2009 13:48:59 I'd been selling destroyers in a level 4 mission station for about 900k. There're also decent level 1, 2 and 3 agents elsewhere in the system. Average region price was 750k, but there were no other sellers for a few jumps, so I was selling them reasonably rapidly even at 900k.
Then someone comes along and puts a few up for 850k. I wait him out, his stuff sells and my business returns. I'm not a crazy person who will give up his profit margin because someone has 3 ships to sell.
Then someone comes along and puts up 60 at 740k (below every other seller in the region), and keeps doing it. I bring my price to within a few k of his (but above, I was in the L4 agent station and he wasn't, and destroyers are popular salvage ships for L4 runners, so I was still selling some despite not being the lowest in the system), and he lowers his price anyway. Rinse and repeat.
Greedy guy seems to be trying to take the entire region's market for this ship at any cost. My nice profit margin is gone, and the average region price for these destroyers has dropped, with this system being the lowest seller in the region last time I checked, instead of one of the highest.
It was good while it lasted, and at least I covered the BP cost. nullnull
My sig is not my sig. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.06.03 14:35:00 -
[60]
Quote:
Then someone comes along and puts up 60 at 740k (below every other seller in the region), and keeps doing it. I bring my price to within a few k of his (but above, I was in the L4 agent station and he wasn't, and destroyers are popular salvage ships for L4 runners, so I was still selling some despite not being the lowest in the system), and he lowers his price anyway. Rinse and repeat.
This is typical market PvP or just an "minerals are free" idiot.
In the first case, if he got bigger shoulders than you, you could duck and wait it out. Or could try looking for a nearby region buying destroyers at 780k and try buy + resell those destroyers to check if he's just an industrial emptying his inventory (hence it's transitory) or if it's really another trader willing to kill you. If it's just an idiot, you can drive the prices down (try baiting him low) and then buy and relist.
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