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kyrv
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Posted - 2009.05.31 07:21:00 -
[1]
Which damage type is best mean damage overall?
I know thats a silly question it would be balanced for either damage type and im crap at maths but this is my general quetions takeing consideration of a slug fest through shields and armor
im changeing between-
em/shield and exp/armor
is thermic or kinetic different in any way?
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.05.31 07:25:00 -
[2]
In PVE, you want to deal the damage type that the rats deal to you mainly, e.g. Thermal for serpentis and explosive for angels.
In PVP, people usually say that EM is the best because it is the lowest resist on the standard armour and shield tanks, excluding Minmatar T2 ships and some others.
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TraininVain
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Posted - 2009.05.31 07:53:00 -
[3]
EM is the STRONGEST resist on T1 armour tanks.
It's got a natural 50/60% resist to EM + whatever people get from throwing EANMIIs on.
Generally people say therm or kin because you're doing the best damage to both tanks.
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Liang Nuren
The Hull Miners Union
Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.05.31 08:00:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: TraininVain
EM is the STRONGEST resist on T1 armour tanks.
Sometimes this is true, sometimes it isn't. Either way, I've done several studies of aggregate resists in PVP recently, and it turns out that EM damage is ~35-40% avg resist for breaking someone's tank. This is because of the now higher number of shield tanks in PVP (IIRC, it's ~60% are shield tanked, details are in Game Dev for the interested... but I'm not digging them up tonight).
IIRC, thermal was next lowest. and has traditionally been considered 'best'.
-Liang
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Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
TraininVain
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Posted - 2009.05.31 08:04:00 -
[5]
For non-active tanked armour tanks it tends to be.
Most of my targets are passive buffer tanking BC and below. I can see how this would change with people plugging the explosive hole etc.
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Liang Nuren
The Hull Miners Union
Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.05.31 08:09:00 -
[6]
Originally by: TraininVain
For non-active tanked armour tanks it tends to be.
Fully agreed, and also fully agreed about the pluggin explosive hole and other such. ;-)
-Liang
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Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
kyrv
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Posted - 2009.05.31 08:25:00 -
[7]
Edited by: kyrv on 31/05/2009 08:25:19
If i seperate these into two groups
EM + Thermic = best shield damage
Explosive + Kinetic = best armor damage
Now it is alright to assume each to there own.
However maybe priority of each is different given shields are factored before armour? so im guessing this maybe the correct order in terms of effectiveness seeing your aiming through shield into armor, hummz
Kinetic
thermic
emp
exp
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.05.31 10:23:00 -
[8]
Liang's study was... suboptimal, because it included carebear lolfits where it really wouldn't matter which damage type you dealt.
T1 armour tanks: best is explosive, worst is EM. Trihardening is rare, EANMs/ANPs are almost ubiquitous. Explosive damage is rarer these days so fitting an explo hardener is rarer.
T1 shield tanks: Best is EM or thermal, worst is explo. Inv fields are very powerful and fitting them is most slot-efficient. But people often fit an EM hardener because of laaaaaasers.
T2. Worst is probably thermal, then kinetic. Best is EM with explosive not too far behind.
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MalVortex
Reaper Industries
Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2009.05.31 10:44:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Liang's study was... suboptimal, because it included carebear lolfits where it really wouldn't matter which damage type you dealt.
T1 armour tanks: best is explosive, worst is EM. Trihardening is rare, EANMs/ANPs are almost ubiquitous. Explosive damage is rarer these days so fitting an explo hardener is rarer.
T1 shield tanks: Best is EM or thermal, worst is explo. Inv fields are very powerful and fitting them is most slot-efficient. But people often fit an EM hardener because of laaaaaasers.
T2. Worst is probably thermal, then kinetic. Best is EM with explosive not too far behind.
I'd generally agree with this, at least through T1. T2 resists really screw things up though. Thermal, a traditionally weak shield resist, is crazy high for Caldari, and Amarr's explosive hole suddenly turns into a perverted joke. At the end of the day, very few ships can truly chose rainbow damage, and those that can will chose the weakest probable resist anyways. Everything else is constrained by ammo type or usefulness (lolol EM drones).
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Psiri
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Posted - 2009.05.31 14:46:00 -
[10]
I'd say explosive, many frigates don't have the lows to spare for a hardener and T1 ships tend to opt for EANM's I've noticed. Even with an explosive hardener the explosive resistance isn't exactly fantastic on an armor tank. EANM's are quite common and it usually results in very high kin/therm resists.
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King Rothgar
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.05.31 15:05:00 -
[11]
Typical armor tanks have 2x EANM II's and a DC II. This results in 70-80% EM resistance, 65-70% kin/therm and 50-60% exp. Needless to say, if fighting an armor tanker you want to be doing explosive. Unfortunately the only effective weapons that currently do explosive damage are drones since projectiles and missiles are in sad shape atm.
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Liang Nuren
The Hull Miners Union
Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.05.31 15:34:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Liang's study was... suboptimal, because it included carebear lolfits where it really wouldn't matter which damage type you dealt.
The problem with this line of thinking is that we've all been down that path and we all know where it goes. It eventually leads to one side saying something like:
"Oh, yeah, that is a total lolfit and shouldn't be in the sample because it doesn't have 2 plates, 3 EANMS, a DC, and trimarks". Nobody can agree on what's a "realistic fit", and generally every side tries to include and exclude certain fits to make their point.
The best way to get around that is to include everything. And as an additional bonus to including everything, you get to see what things are really like out there. Sometimes it includes lolfits.... but that's what you encounter when you PVP - and if it includes a LOLfit with a 0% armor EM resist, then EM damage would have been the best damage type to deal.
Additionally, people don't go filtering out all their "LOLFIT" mails when chest beating about having 4000 killmails last week alone. I'm just not seeing how this is a valid argument for it being invalid.
Quote:
T1 armour tanks: best is explosive, worst is EM. Trihardening is rare, EANMs/ANPs are almost ubiquitous. Explosive damage is rarer these days so fitting an explo hardener is rarer.
(Unless you live in Minnie space....)
Quote:
T1 shield tanks: Best is EM or thermal, worst is explo. Inv fields are very powerful and fitting them is most slot-efficient. But people often fit an EM hardener because of laaaaaasers.
Aaaaccccttuuuaaalllyyyyy, that study I did shows this is a false statement. Most people fit EM rigs or simply leave the EM hole. I dunno though, maybe every single shield tank there was a LOLfit and we should exclude them because they don't fall into your "all shield tankers fit EM hardeners" theory?
-Liang
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Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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Posted - 2009.05.31 15:47:00 -
[13]
Originally by: MalVortex
I'd generally agree with this, at least through T1. T2 resists really screw things up though. Thermal, a traditionally weak shield resist, is crazy high for Caldari, and Amarr's explosive hole suddenly turns into a perverted joke. At the end of the day, very few ships can truly chose rainbow damage, and those that can will chose the weakest probable resist anyways. Everything else is constrained by ammo type or usefulness (lolol EM drones).
That.
It's a matter of role as well. I tend to use explosive drones on heavy/light to get the speed, while I like using thermal mediums to squeeze a bit more raw damage. Simply based on the fact that I won't know what my target fit, generally I move in hostile space.
Another thought is, if you chase ratters, you'll know what they tank and uhm, then I will try throw in some damage of whatever hole I guess they migth have. 
Obviously things like that doesn't have a statistical, EFT- or subscientific argument to be thrown around, so.. at the end of the day I think the best ammo to use is whatever is most useful allround, given the situations you are in. */me also points at what I bolded from MalV's post*
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Beverly Sparks
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Posted - 2009.05.31 16:42:00 -
[14]
Originally by: King Rothgar
Typical armor tanks have 2x EANM II's and a DC II. This results in 70-80% EM resistance, 65-70% kin/therm and 50-60% exp. Needless to say, if fighting an armor tanker you want to be doing explosive. Unfortunately the only effective weapons that currently do explosive damage are drones since projectiles and missiles are in sad shape atm.
While projectiles are in need of a little love, I wouldn't go quite as far as saying they are not effective. The problem with Minmatar ( especially BS's), is their lack of a competitive tank in combination with it's slightly substandard weapons. Basically making them a bit hurting in all areas atm. This is more so directed towards their artillery boats, since short range weapons have been kinda screwed since the nano nerf.
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Beverly Sparks
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Posted - 2009.05.31 17:31:00 -
[15]
Originally by: MalVortex
At the end of the day, very few ships can truly chose rainbow damage, and those that can will chose the weakest probable resist anyways.
IMO this is not true either. Nobody bothers, unless they are hunting ratters, bashing POS's, or fighting NPC's. In which case, the decision is probably made in the station before they even undock.
Long and Short range ammo or T2 ammo (mainly long range). Dominate probably 95% of what is presently loaded in all PvP ships in Eve. Damage type has nearly nothing to do with it. People will change damage types, but it is nearly impossible to pick holes in individual ships. Moreso, you use the "force" to guide you to foresee what the future will hold for ship types and races. Everyone likes a choice, and that is more attractive then effective IMO.
When I moved out to where I am atm in 0.0. I brought a few of all types of light drones. I have never loaded any of them except warriors. But I am still happy that I have the choice... just in case. In case of what, I do not know, but I like to be prepared.
In reality, those drone are probably there to protect against acts of the developers, since that is probably the only thing that would change my mind about loading warriors.
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Thenoran
Caldari
Tranquility Industries
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Posted - 2009.05.31 17:36:00 -
[16]
Thermal works best on T1 ships, in general.
The only exception would be T1 Minmatar ships using a Thermal hardener (usually paired with a Kinetic and Explosive one).
Against T2 it depends.
T2 Amarr resists are nasty against Explosive, with Thermal being the lowest.
T2 Minmatar have an amazing EM resist, with Kinetic being the weakspot.
T2 Caldari/Gallente ships have very good Thermal/Kinetic resists with EM/Exp being the weakpoints respectively.
Overall there is no real best thing to go for, since you can run into anything.
Against T1, Thermal/Kinetic is relative safe bet, against T2 it depends on the ship.
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Low-sec is like sailing along the coast of Somalia...
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ry ry
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Posted - 2009.05.31 18:36:00 -
[17]
Edited by: ry ry on 31/05/2009 18:36:27
and assumes people aren't plugging the resist holes anyway.
even on something cheap like a jag, shield resist rigs cost peanuts so it's easy enough to toughen up the hole/s.
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Dirty Sue
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Posted - 2009.05.31 21:04:00 -
[18]
Its entirely situational, and depends on your knowledge of the ships and how they are commonly fit.
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