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Faffywaffy	Posted - 2009.06.04 20:17:00 - [1] The crow is an awesome interceptor, I love flying it, and killing people who underestimate it. It could, however, in my opinion, use a little boost in EHP. Let's compare the 4 fighter interceptors in terms of EHP. This is on a blank fit, with all skills at level 5: Claw - 1989 EHP Taranis - 2322 EHP Crusader - 2334 EHP Crow - 1856 EHP As you can see, the crow has about 140 EHP less than the next worst thing. This is further exacerbated by its very weak structure, as the single best tanking module you can fit is a damage control. With a single Damage Control II the picture is even worse: Claw - 3135 EHP Taranis - 3876 EHP Crusader - 3718 EHP Crow - 2734 EHP To add insult to injury, the crow sports a 0% EM resist on its shields! I suggest boosting the crow's EHP just a little bit by giving it 100 more structure and a native 20% shield resistance to EM.
Fifi LeFume No Trademark	Posted - 2009.06.04 20:20:00 - [2] The additional EHP seems alright, though i dont think it should get 20% to EM shield resist. Every race has a resist hole, and it should stay that way.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.06.04 20:21:00 - [3] Quote: To add insult to injury, the crow sports a 0% EM resist on its shields! You realise that is included in the EHP calculations? Now compare the locking range: Claw - Neglectable Taranis - Average Crusader - Average Crow - Huge
Poses	Posted - 2009.06.04 20:27:00 - [4] Originally by: Furb Killer Quote: To add insult to injury, the crow sports a 0% EM resist on its shields! You realise that is included in the EHP calculations? Now compare the locking range: Claw - Neglectable Taranis - Average Crusader - Average Crow - Huge yeah but the claw is clearly the best cuz it gets moar structure and more em resist
Sepelio Fas	Posted - 2009.06.04 20:43:00 - [5] I have to disagree with the op mainly because the crow has an incredible advantage when it comes to PvP engagements, mainly missles. All the other interceptors are pretty much assed out of the ability to do damage by the fact that turrets cannot track for beans while moving at 3k+/s. And as for the em resist gallente and amarr also have a 0% em resist but all 3 of the non minnie races have that 10% somewhere else. As far as EHP goes well I honestly think EHP is a highly misleading indicator of a ships durability. Kill mails always have ships taking far far less damage than their EHP would indicate. Since Interceptors are something that will in all likely be one or two shotted by anything that gets a decent hit on them I think the durability factor is almost a moot point. Not having researched actual kill board stats on the average damage each interceptor is capable of taking I'm not 100% sure on this but I think that that would be a much better indicator than EFT stats.
aceoalt	Posted - 2009.06.04 20:43:00 - [6] Edited by: aceoalt on 04/06/2009 20:43:50 Every interceptor you just compared it with is intended to operate a LOT closer than the Crow. Try stepping away from EFT for 5 minutes sometime. If the enemy is landing hits on me in ANY interceptor that miniscule difference in EHP is the least of my worries Edit: wrong character. Argh.
Tza Omi	Posted - 2009.06.04 20:47:00 - [7] And EHP is important to a crow why? I mean if you're flying it right, very little can hit it. Orbiting at warp disruptor range cap stable with the mwd running and pounding away with missiles.
Lili Lu Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships	Posted - 2009.06.04 21:03:00 - [8] another Caldari whine/troll. Please read the above responses. But, you are so right, you should have no resist hole to fill. Afterall, thermal damage is hardly ever seen in pvp engagements. Who needs a resist bonus for that? For 500 more "EHP" (which would mean so much) I'm sure you would be willing to give up your lock range, the range of your light missiles, and the trackingless hit ability with decent explosion velocity. Right? In exchange you should get a another bonus stat as well, maybe get a 5% bonus for damage from say, rockets!! Rockets are just awesome!! Who needs light missile launchers when you could pound your targets with the ultimate anti-frigate/anti-drone weapon that is, the rocket!! /me also going back under my bridge now. But that doesn't lessen the fail in your whine.
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2009.06.04 21:42:00 - [9] Edited by: Faffywaffy on 04/06/2009 21:44:02 Edited by: Faffywaffy on 04/06/2009 21:42:16 Guys (and gals), I'm not some newb or a rookie interceptor pilot (killboard link). Don't assume I am one because I am saying things that contradict the "accepted" opinion. The "accepted" opinion is usually wrong. Originally by: Furb Killer Quote: To add insult to injury, the crow sports a 0% EM resist on its shields! You realise that is included in the EHP calculations? Yes, but a resist hole is worse than no hole with the same EHP. I would rather have (for example) 50%/50% EM/Thermal resist than 100%/0%. Originally by: Furb Killer Now compare the locking range: Claw - Neglectable Taranis - Average Crusader - Average Crow - Huge Locking range is important, but not as important for a damage-dealing interceptor. The missile crow is horrible as a damage dealer, and for a rocket crow, the locking range is not as important. Originally by: Sepelio Fas I have to disagree with the op mainly because the crow has an incredible advantage when it comes to PvP engagements, mainly missles. All the other interceptors are pretty much assed out of the ability to do damage by the fact that turrets cannot track for beans while moving at 3k+/s. The missile crow would still do less damage. The only viable damage dealer fit for a crow is a rocket crow. Originally by: Sepelio Fas And as for the em resist gallente and amarr also have a 0% em resist but all 3 of the non minnie races have that 10% somewhere else. Yes, they have a 0% SHIELD EM resist, but they are ARMOR tankers. Originally by: Sepelio Fas As far as EHP goes well I honestly think EHP is a highly misleading indicator of a ships durability. ... Since Interceptors are something that will in all likely be one or two shotted by anything that gets a decent hit on them I think the durability factor is almost a moot point. A fighter interceptor is not going to be instapopped in a fight against other interceptors. Neither will it be instapopped by larger ships, if it flown properly. Originally by: aceoalt Edited by: aceoalt on 04/06/2009 20:43:50 Every interceptor you just compared it with is intended to operate a LOT closer than the Crow. Try stepping away from EFT for 5 minutes sometime. If the enemy is landing hits on me in ANY interceptor that miniscule difference in EHP is the least of my worries See missile crow comments above. Originally by: Lili Lu another Caldari whine/troll. Please read the above responses. But, you are so right, you should have no resist hole to fill. Afterall, thermal damage is hardly ever seen in pvp engagements. Who needs a resist bonus for that? For 500 more "EHP" (which would mean so much) I'm sure you would be willing to give up your lock range, the range of your light missiles, and the trackingless hit ability with decent explosion velocity. Right? In exchange you should get a another bonus stat as well, maybe get a 5% bonus for damage from say, rockets!! Rockets are just awesome!! Who needs light missile launchers when you could pound your targets with the ultimate anti-frigate/anti-drone weapon that is, the rocket!! /me also going back under my bridge now. But that doesn't lessen the fail in your whine. I am not whining, nor am I trolling. I'm a very experienced interceptor pilot, so at least try to take me seriously. You're welcome to try and refute my arguments, but don't call me names. Yes, I would gladly give up my locking range (set to 25-30km would be fine). I wasn't asking for 500 more EHP. I was asking for about 150-200 more. Rockets are awesome, and are the only weapon I would fit on a crow. That is one of the crow's advantages. The question is - do its advantages outweigh the disadvantages. My opinion is that the crow should have less EHP than the others, but slightly more than it has now.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.06.04 21:47:00 - [10] Quote: I'm a very experienced interceptor pilot Here i stopped taking you serious. Crow is not a high dps ceptor. If you want to compare it to them, you might start by increasing its dps. But really, the crow just is completely different from a taranis for example, you cant compare them on one point.

Faffywaffy	Posted - 2009.06.04 22:08:00 - [11] Originally by: Furb Killer Quote: I'm a very experienced interceptor pilot Here i stopped taking you serious. Crow is not a high dps ceptor. If you want to compare it to them, you might start by increasing its dps. But really, the crow just is completely different from a taranis for example, you cant compare them on one point. Crow is not a high-dps ceptor if you fit it for long range (missiles). Neither would the other interceptors be high-dps if you fit them for long range. If you fit it for short range (rockets), it becomes a high-dps ceptor.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.06.04 22:16:00 - [12] Rockets are crap, first rockets should be fixed before you change ships who would want to use them.
Spectre3353 Gallente The Python Cartel.	Posted - 2009.06.04 22:28:00 - [13] Edited by: Spectre3353 on 04/06/2009 22:28:03 Originally by: Faffywaffy Guys (and gals), I'm not some newb or a rookie interceptor pilot (killboard link). I followed your link and noticed that you are able to fly and have kills listed for an interceptor from every race, including the Taranis. So my question is, if you can fly a Taranis, why would you ever fly another interceptor where damage/EHP/resist holes are important? Flying a rocket Crow instead of a blasteranis in itself is the bigger problem here. Having variety in ships is nice so do not try to make them all the same and of the same effectiveness. Rather, fly the ship more appropriate to what you are trying to do. You want an interceptor with good EHP that you can solo in? Stop flying a Crow. ----- The Python Cartel - My Pirate Blog
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2009.06.04 22:42:00 - [14] Originally by: Furb Killer Rockets are crap, first rockets should be fixed before you change ships who would want to use them. According to you. In my experience rockets are very good. Originally by: Spectre3353 Edited by: Spectre3353 on 04/06/2009 22:28:03 Originally by: Faffywaffy Guys (and gals), I'm not some newb or a rookie interceptor pilot (killboard link). I followed your link and noticed that you are able to fly and have kills listed for an interceptor from every race, including the Taranis. So my question is, if you can fly a Taranis, why would you ever fly another interceptor where damage/EHP/resist holes are important? Flying a rocket Crow instead of a blasteranis in itself is the bigger problem here. Having variety in ships is nice so do not try to make them all the same and of the same effectiveness. Rather, fly the ship more appropriate to what you are trying to do. You want an interceptor with good EHP that you can solo in? Stop flying a Crow. A rocket crow kills a standard fit taranis. A taranis is good for soloing cruisers. Against other interceptors it is quite useless as you will never get a fight in the first place. We're getting kind of off-topic here, though. I am not trying to make every interceptor the same. How would you get that idea? All I asked was a very small boost to the crow's EHP, which I feel is appropriate.
Stil Harkonnen	Posted - 2009.06.05 00:37:00 - [15] don't whine about how sucky the crow is then brag about how your claw can kill a standard fit taranis... and to derail this thread, taranis are amazing. my corp mate embarassed a hurricane with one. Ransomed it to spare it the solo interceptor on the killmail
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2009.06.05 00:40:00 - [16] Originally by: Stil Harkonnen don't whine about how sucky the crow is then brag about how your claw can kill a standard fit taranis... and to derail this thread, taranis are amazing. my corp mate embarassed a hurricane with one. Ransomed it to spare it the solo interceptor on the killmail You need glasses. I never said the crow is sucky. I never said a claw can kill a standard fit taranis -- I said a rocket crow can do that.
Stil Harkonnen	Posted - 2009.06.05 00:48:00 - [17] wow you're right I accidentally put claw instead of crow. The way I see it, the crow is supposed to be used sorta at a long range. I guess you could argue that al interceptors should be used like that for tackling, but the crow in particular has no use to get up close and personal. So they get a larger locking range and a slight decrease in EHP. Now in an interceptor, if you're getting hit at all, a couple extra hitpoints aren't going to dramatically change the fight in your favor. Seems a little unnecessary to change this. Now all of this could also be bull **** cause i fly gallente and don't even have the skills to fly interceptors.
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2009.06.05 00:54:00 - [18] Originally by: Stil Harkonnen wow you're right I accidentally put claw instead of crow. The way I see it, the crow is supposed to be used sorta at a long range. I guess you could argue that al interceptors should be used like that for tackling, but the crow in particular has no use to get up close and personal. So they get a larger locking range and a slight decrease in EHP. Now in an interceptor, if you're getting hit at all, a couple extra hitpoints aren't going to dramatically change the fight in your favor. Seems a little unnecessary to change this. Now all of this could also be bull ** cause i fly gallente and don't even have the skills to fly interceptors. The crow is a fighter** interceptor. If you put missiles on it, it doesn't do any dps, is a poor tackler (no disruptor range bonus, no firm tackle), and dies to any other interceptor. A missile crow is a waste of a crow. I'm repeating myself, but in an interceptor fight (and to a lesser degree when tackling something larger), the few extra hitpoints do matter. You're right about your last point, though.
Atsuko Ratu Caldari Interstellar eXodus	Posted - 2009.06.05 01:06:00 - [19] Originally by: Faffywaffy is a poor tackler (no disruptor range bonus, no firm tackle), 28km is more than enough to tackle; the "tacklier" interceptors struggle with their poorly designed targeting range, making them sub par in comparison to the real interceptors.
Stil Harkonnen	Posted - 2009.06.05 01:08:00 - [20] I guess if it's the fighter interceptor of the pair then I can see why you bring this up. However, the way I see it, it fights from long range thus the less hp. eh you could argue both sides of this argument fairly well

Faffywaffy	Posted - 2009.06.05 01:29:00 - [21] Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Originally by: Faffywaffy is a poor tackler (no disruptor range bonus, no firm tackle), 28km is more than enough to tackle; the "tacklier" interceptors struggle with their poorly designed targeting range, making them sub par in comparison to the real interceptors. 28km is overheated, so you can't hold that indefinitely. It's also well inside heavy neut range, so you can't tackle neut BSes, which is one of the few niches that long range tacklers are useful at. The stiletto is infinitely better at that role.
Atsuko Ratu Caldari Interstellar eXodus	Posted - 2009.06.05 01:40:00 - [22] Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 05/06/2009 01:40:24 Originally by: Faffywaffy 28km is overheated, so you can't hold that indefinitely. It's also well inside heavy neut range, so you can't tackle neut BSes, which is one of the few niches that long range tacklers are useful at. The stiletto is infinitely better at that role. 28km is not "well inside"heavy neut range Yes, they can tackle a single target better. Assuming you fit sensor boosters.
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2009.06.05 01:49:00 - [23] Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 05/06/2009 01:40:24 Originally by: Faffywaffy 28km is overheated, so you can't hold that indefinitely. It's also well inside heavy neut range, so you can't tackle neut BSes, which is one of the few niches that long range tacklers are useful at. The stiletto is infinitely better at that role. 28km is not "well inside"heavy neut range Yes, they can tackle a single target better. Assuming you fit sensor boosters. I just realized you're going to say that as I hit the submit button. You can't orbit at 28km and expect to hold the point - the target will be able to get out of range. So you have to orbit at 26km or so, and then you will get into neut range and you will be neuted.
Monticore D'Muertos Caldari Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.06.05 02:54:00 - [24] i can fly a ranis/crow/claw but i instead fly a rifter to kill ceptor pilots, go figure.
Jared D'Uroth Universal Peace Operation	Posted - 2009.06.05 04:45:00 - [25] If you don't like it, fly something else. You think 100 EHP is going to be the difference? === Originally by: RedSplat Originally by: Insurgo Malvir No, but acting like i want + pirate's positive standing = he don't pod me. Logical Fallacy detected
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2009.06.05 07:22:00 - [26] Originally by: Jared D'Uroth If you don't like it, fly something else. You think 100 EHP is going to be the difference? Quite an argument you have there. You win, I guess.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.06.05 07:30:00 - [27] Quote: In my experience rockets are very good. To put it blunt, your experience is wrong.
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2009.06.05 07:49:00 - [28] Originally by: Furb Killer Quote: In my experience rockets are very good. To put it blunt, your experience is wrong. To put it bluntly, take a look at my corporation's killboard. The only interceptor I'm hesitant to engage in a rocket crow is a pulse crusader.
Rordan D'Kherr Amarr	Posted - 2009.06.05 08:12:00 - [29] Instead of buff here and nerf there, make one ceptor for all races. Forget diversity of strengths and weaknesses and the power of crosstraining. No more whining then. Period.
Prometheus Exenthal Genos Occidere	Posted - 2009.06.05 08:18:00 - [30] you have turret slots, fly it like a tristan tbh - MY LATEST VIDEO - FRIGANK 6

Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.06.05 08:25:00 - [31] Originally by: Faffywaffy Originally by: Furb Killer Quote: In my experience rockets are very good. To put it blunt, your experience is wrong. To put it bluntly, take a look at my corporation's killboard. The only interceptor I'm hesitant to engage in a rocket crow is a pulse crusader. So spelling *****, what exactly is the problem? You happily attack all but one intie, and you still want to get your ship boosted? Forget it. (btw getting kills in it is not the same as being fine, rockets just need to be boosted a bit in dps).
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2009.06.05 12:56:00 - [32] Rockets are pretty crappy in general. But they work on a Crow because: 1. 50% damage bonus. 2. Crow has a slot available for web. 3. Rocket Crow's main opponents - other interceptors - normally don't fit ABs (uhoh dual-prop Taranis). That's the theory. I have virtually no TQ interceptor experience. But after reading Faffy's comments on Rocket Crow a while back, I tried it on Sisi and found that MWD-web-scrambler Taranises were easy kills. Things didn't work out too good against rail Taranises or Crusaders though, and dual-prop Taranis would also be trickier, but I'm a complete noob at flying interceptors.
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2009.06.05 17:27:00 - [33] Originally by: Furb Killer Originally by: Faffywaffy Originally by: Furb Killer Quote: In my experience rockets are very good. To put it blunt, your experience is wrong. To put it bluntly, take a look at my corporation's killboard. The only interceptor I'm hesitant to engage in a rocket crow is a pulse crusader. So spelling *****, what exactly is the problem? You happily attack all but one intie, and you still want to get your ship boosted? Forget it. (btw getting kills in it is not the same as being fine, rockets just need to be boosted a bit in dps). The rocket crow would likely be winning those fights if it had half the EHP it has now. There are other fights it participates in where the EHP is more important. Again, guys, I'm not calling for a huge increase in EHP -- just a small one, as currently, the crow has unproportionately less EHP than all other interceptors.
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.06.05 17:37:00 - [34] Crows seem awfully damned effective to me. I had a pair of them rip me a new one in a Vexor the other day. High speeds mitigating the ability to do more than ding their shields once in a dozen shots, while they pelted the everloving crap out of me while taking turns maintaining the warp scramble. Its not what you fit, its how you fly. The two that bagged me were very good at it. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2009.06.05 17:56:00 - [35] Originally by: Janu Hull Crows seem awfully damned effective to me. I had a pair of them rip me a new one in a Vexor the other day. High speeds mitigating the ability to do more than ding their shields once in a dozen shots, while they pelted the everloving crap out of me while taking turns maintaining the warp scramble. Its not what you fit, its how you fly. The two that bagged me were very good at it. It is how you fit and how you fly. You should have had a medium neut on the Vexor, at which point they couldn't scramble (2pt) you, and you could have easily tanked, reapproached the gate and jumped out.
Bronson Hughes ADVANCED Combat and Engineering	Posted - 2009.06.05 18:51:00 - [36] Edited by: Bronson Hughes on 05/06/2009 18:52:55 Your problem here is that you're assuming that Caldari 'ceptors follow the traditional roles of 'dogfighter' and 'tackler'. They don't. The Crow is much better suited as a long-range tackler. It has a huge lock range, good speed, low EHP, the ability to fit long range weapons (the longest of any 'ceptor with its bonuses) without gimping its fit, and a damage bonus for those weapons. It lacks the bonus to tackle range, but 24km (or more if you overheat or go faction) is still viable for most uses. The Raptor is much better suited as a close-in brawler. It lacks the ability to effectively fit long range weapons without gumping its fit so it's limited to 75mm rails or blasters, its tackle bonus means that it can scram targets out to and beyond normal web range, its the slowest of all 'ceptors so you can justify not speed-fitting it, and it has more base EHP than the Crow. Once you overcome the role perception that the tackle bonus (or lack thereof) tend to produce, you'll see that the Crow and Raptor are actually perfectly well balanced relative to each other. That doesn't mean that the Raptor isn't still pretty crappy compared to other close-in 'ceptors. EDIT: Originally by: Faffywaffy It is how you fit and how you fly. You should have had a medium neut on the Vexor, at which point they couldn't scramble (2pt) you, and you could have easily tanked, reapproached the gate and jumped out. That goes for any 'ceptor, not just the Crow. Not sure if you were implying otherwise or not, just clarifying. -------------------- "I am hard pressed on my right; my centre is giving way; situation excellent; I am attacking." - Ferdinand Foch at the Battle of the Marne
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2009.06.05 19:01:00 - [37] Originally by: Bronson Hughes Edited by: Bronson Hughes on 05/06/2009 18:52:55 Your problem here is that you're assuming that Caldari 'ceptors follow the traditional roles of 'dogfighter' and 'tackler'. They don't. The Crow is much better suited as a long-range tackler. It has a huge lock range, good speed, low EHP, the ability to fit long range weapons (the longest of any 'ceptor with its bonuses) without gimping its fit, and a damage bonus for those weapons. It lacks the bonus to tackle range, but 24km (or more if you overheat or go faction) is still viable for most uses. The Raptor is much better suited as a close-in brawler. It lacks the ability to effectively fit long range weapons without gumping its fit so it's limited to 75mm rails or blasters, its tackle bonus means that it can scram targets out to and beyond normal web range, its the slowest of all 'ceptors so you can justify not speed-fitting it, and it has more base EHP than the Crow. Once you overcome the role perception that the tackle bonus (or lack thereof) tend to produce, you'll see that the Crow and Raptor are actually perfectly well balanced relative to each other. That doesn't mean that the Raptor isn't still pretty crappy compared to other close-in 'ceptors. I already explained why the missile crow is pathetic in my opinion, but even if you choose to look at it like a long range "tackler" inty, it still has significantly less EHP than the other "tackler" interceptors.
Kyguard Amok. Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.06.05 19:04:00 - [38] This is not really a thread on balance. This is you trying to brag about your kills. Gtfo
Bronson Hughes ADVANCED Combat and Engineering	Posted - 2009.06.05 19:11:00 - [39] Originally by: Faffywaffy in my opinion There's your problem. Nobody else here seems to agree with your opinion. Originally by: Faffywaffy even if you choose to look at it like a long range "tackler" inty, it still has significantly less EHP than the other "tackler" interceptors. In general, the Crow matches or outperforms other "tackle" 'ceptors in speed, lock range, damage, and primary weapon range. Giving up a little EHP and 4-6km tackle range more than makes up for that. Mind you I'm a Crow pilot too so seeing its EHP boosted would benefit me in the long run, and even I don't think it needs a buff.
Ulstan	Posted - 2009.06.05 20:19:00 - [40] Out of all the Tech II Caldari ships, the crow is the one least in need of boosting. The raptor is crap. The hawk is the worst AF in the game, Harpy has typical AF issues but is good for its class. I honestly don't see a big problem with the crow at all.

Kessiaan Minmatar MicroFunks	Posted - 2009.06.05 20:29:00 - [41] lol at rocket crows You'll die to the first T1 frig you run into that has any idea what he's doing. A scrammed/webbed crow is a dead crow. A crow is supposed to wear down opponents while zooming around not getting hit by anything. Other 'ceptors (like the Taranis) are much, much, MUCH better at operating up close.
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2009.06.05 21:00:00 - [42] Originally by: Kyguard This is not really a thread on balance. This is you trying to brag about your kills. Gtfo Ooh, another one of those arguments that just win! Originally by: Bronson Hughes Originally by: Faffywaffy in my opinion There's your problem. Nobody else here seems to agree with your opinion. That's not a problem. Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean you're wrong. If your opinions have been tested against theirs and proved correct, well then... Originally by: Bronson Hughes Originally by: Faffywaffy even if you choose to look at it like a long range "tackler" inty, it still has significantly less EHP than the other "tackler" interceptors. In general, the Crow matches or outperforms other "tackle" 'ceptors in speed, lock range, damage, and primary weapon range. Giving up a little EHP and 4-6km tackle range more than makes up for that. It doesn't outperform them in the one area where a long range tackler is needed! That is, tackling from long range (outside heavy neut). Even at short range, I prefer the tackler inties to the missile crow - a stiletto with a faction scram can shut your MWD from 15km away and you can't do a thing to it. Originally by: Ulstan Out of all the Tech II Caldari ships, the crow is the one least in need of boosting. The raptor is crap. The hawk is the worst AF in the game, Harpy has typical AF issues but is good for its class. I honestly don't see a big problem with the crow at all. I agree with that assessment. But this thread is about the crow, and I didn't say there was a big problem with the crow; just a small disbalance in EHP. Originally by: Kessiaan lol at rocket crows You'll die to the first T1 frig you run into that has any idea what he's doing. A scrammed/webbed crow is a dead crow. A crow is supposed to wear down opponents while zooming around not getting hit by anything. Other 'ceptors (like the Taranis) are much, much, MUCH better at operating up close. I've killed a lot of taranises in my rocket crow, and died very few times, so you are simply wrong.
Agdistisar Regus Republic University	Posted - 2009.06.06 06:11:00 - [43] Try this Crow fit and then come back and tell me it's still a bad Interceptor. [Crow, Close Range] Damage Control II Micro Auxiliary Power Core I Nanofiber Internal Structure II Medium Shield Extender II Warp Scrambler II 1MN MicroWarpdrive II Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Thorn Rage Rocket 75mm Gatling Rail II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Auxiliary Thrusters I Auxiliary Thrusters I 4,6k EHP, 4.6km/s, Cap Stable
Atsuko Ratu Caldari Interstellar eXodus	Posted - 2009.06.06 07:02:00 - [44] You need to look at all stats, not just one. Every ship comparison will show a common theme; if you want a boost to the crow's hull, you're asking for a boost to every caldari ship's hull. The crow has greater stats in some other department while the other interceptors are all the lowest in one area; why not boost the X's Y? Your logic makes no sense. Ship's base stats are balanced around the other races, why does the Crow need a boost in EHP? You never really give a reason other than "It's lower than the others".
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2009.06.06 07:51:00 - [45] Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 06/06/2009 07:12:08 You need to look at all stats, not just one. Every ship comparison will show a common theme; if you want a boost to the crow's hull, you're asking for a boost to every caldari ship's hull. The crow has greater stats in some other department while the other interceptors are all the lowest in one area; why not boost the X's Y? Your logic makes no sense. Ship's base stats are balanced around the other races, why does the Crow need a boost in EHP? You never really give a reason other than "It's lower than the others". Here are a few examples: Crusader: 25km locking range Crow: 37.5km locking range Taranis: 25km locking range Claw: 21.88km locking range Crusader: 469 base cap Crow: 391 base cap Taranis: 430 base cap Claw: 352 base cap Crusader: 32m^2 base signature Crow: 36m^2 base signature Taranis: 36m^2 base signature Claw: 30m^2 base signature Crusader: 1218.8 base scan resolution Crow: 1075 base scan resolution Taranis: 1100 base scan resolution Claw: 1250 base scan resolution I could easily say the same thing about any of these comparisons (mostly the lock range; sucks to be the claw ), boost X's Y because it is lower than everyone else's Y. You are right, except that the EHP difference stands out. The rest of the stats are reasonably balanced (the crow needs that range for missiles to work), but with EHP, the Taranis has 50% more of it than the crow. That is unbalanced in my opinion.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.06.06 08:09:00 - [46] Quote: I've killed a lot of taranises in my rocket crow, and died very few times, so you are simply wrong. So basicly what you are saying is that the crow is the best damage intie out there (lol rockets), and only the crusader maybe is a match. But we should boost the crow anyway?
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2009.06.06 08:26:00 - [47] Originally by: Furb Killer Quote: I've killed a lot of taranises in my rocket crow, and died very few times, so you are simply wrong. So basicly what you are saying is that the crow is the best damage intie out there (lol rockets), and only the crusader maybe is a match. But we should boost the crow anyway? There is more to EVE than 1v1 fights. Not a very realistic example, but while 1 (rocket) crow beats 1 (standard fit) taranis, 2 taranises annihilate 2 crows.
Kazang Gallente Wrecking Shots	Posted - 2009.06.06 08:42:00 - [48] You may have killed many taranis's in your rocket crow but i would wager that they were just bad pilots or fail fits. A rocket crow has more counters than a missile crow and in general is a poor fit, due mostly to the poor dps of rockets. Not becasue of low ehp. Any t1 ab/scram frig will kill a rocket crow assuming equal skilled pilots, crows are not designed to operate in web range. Their stats reflect that. The crow is fine, it has the lowest ehp becasue it has the longest range weapons of any interceptor, has no tracking issues, no cap issues and is fast enough to avoid 90& of dmg. You have said yourself you have no problem killing other ceptors and spouting eft stats of unfitted ships is meaningless, becasue guess what? No one flies an unfitted ship! Ships are balanced around fits and in game performance not unfitted base stats.
Faffywaffy	Posted - 2009.06.06 09:02:00 - [49] Originally by: Kazang You may have killed many taranis's in your rocket crow but i would wager that they were just bad pilots or fail fits. A rocket crow has more counters than a missile crow and in general is a poor fit, due mostly to the poor dps of rockets. Not becasue of low ehp. Any t1 ab/scram frig will kill a rocket crow assuming equal skilled pilots, crows are not designed to operate in web range. Their stats reflect that. The crow is fine, it has the lowest ehp becasue it has the longest range weapons of any interceptor, has no tracking issues, no cap issues and is fast enough to avoid 90& of dmg. You have said yourself you have no problem killing other ceptors and spouting eft stats of unfitted ships is meaningless, becasue guess what? No one flies an unfitted ship! Ships are balanced around fits and in game performance not unfitted base stats. You are right. I give up and am no longer going to fly rocket crows.
Sonmi 456	Posted - 2009.06.06 11:03:00 - [50] Actually...BOOST ROCKETS!

Monticore D'Muertos Caldari Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.06.06 13:22:00 - [51] Edited by: Monticore D''Muertos on 06/06/2009 13:22:47 3x rocket, 1x 125mm ac mwd/scrambler/med shield extender od/od(bcu)/mapc there is your better effective ehp.
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.06.06 13:27:00 - [52] Originally by: Faffywaffy Originally by: Janu Hull Crows seem awfully damned effective to me. I had a pair of them rip me a new one in a Vexor the other day. High speeds mitigating the ability to do more than ding their shields once in a dozen shots, while they pelted the everloving crap out of me while taking turns maintaining the warp scramble. Its not what you fit, its how you fly. The two that bagged me were very good at it. It is how you fit and how you fly. You should have had a medium neut on the Vexor, at which point they couldn't scramble (2pt) you, and you could have easily tanked, reapproached the gate and jumped out. Concede on the neutralizer, its not something I consider usually. As I said, though, there were two. My initial attempt to reapproach and jump was stumped by one being on either side of the gate. I did tank them for quite a while before going down, it was just a very lopsided fight. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.


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