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Ichandasil
Minmatar Department of Defence
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Posted - 2009.06.06 01:48:00 -
[1]
I can use all T2 artillery/ac's and shield gear on my Maelstrom and have been running missions with it for quite a while now. As of today I got Caldari BS 2, bought a Raven and fit it with 6 Arbalest launchers, 4 BCS 2 and 2 Rigor rigs. I have cruise missile 3, missile launcher operation 5, warhead upgrades 3, missile bombardment 3, missile projection 2, navigation prediction 3 and warhead upgrades 3.
So far I've run a few missions in my Raven and it sucks compared to the Maelstrom, takes much longer to finish and the tank is not as good for obvious reasons. Of course my missile skills aren't equal to my gunnery skills so I should expect the performance to be off a bit but here's the thing. The performance is so bad that I'm afraid that I'll be spending a couple weeks getting all these skills to 4 or 5 just to equal my Maelstrom or be just a little bit better than it. One of the main reasons for me thinking this is that I'm losing a lot of DPS, and I mean a lot, to defender missiles which wont be helped by getting my skills higher.
Now, the one area where the Raven beats the Maelstrom so far is that in the long range missions when the rats finally get to me it can kill them faster than artillery but the problem is that there's so many more getting close to me because they aren't dying very quickly at all at long ranges. On the close range missions it's not even close, the AC's on the Mael just destroy the rats very quickly at a pace that i can't believe, looking at things now, the cruise missiles will ever be able to match.
Color me disappointed. |
Atsuko Ratu
Caldari Interstellar eXodus
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Posted - 2009.06.06 01:56:00 -
[2]
tl:dr version
Properly skilled Mael > Bare minimum Raven |
Ichandasil
Minmatar Department of Defence
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Posted - 2009.06.06 02:14:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu tl:dr version
Properly skilled Mael > Bare minimum Raven
Reading comprehension fail.
Spending the weeks getting the skills to 4 will gain me a few percentage points of performance increase here and there, will it be massively better than what I have now or just a little? From what I see, maybe just a little.
When it comes to the close range stuff I don't ever see cruise missiles being better than large ac's. You'd have to over double their current performance to match.
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Vyllana
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Posted - 2009.06.06 02:22:00 -
[4]
You're correct. The raven is not really the king of PvE at all. Each race has a BS (or several) that can do it just fine if you have good skills, and there is no need to crosstrain to do level 4 missions.
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari Interstellar eXodus
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Posted - 2009.06.06 02:30:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 06/06/2009 02:31:37
Originally by: Ichandasil
Reading comprehension fail.
Spending the weeks getting the skills to 4 will gain me a few percentage points of performance increase here and there, will it be massively better than what I have now or just a little? From what I see, maybe just a little.
When it comes to the close range stuff I don't ever see cruise missiles being better than large ac's. You'd have to over double their current performance to match.
Just so you know, cruise missiles are the long range missiles. "Acs" are the short range projectiles; if you mean autocannons.
I can read just fine. You're saying that your well skilled BS is outperforming a ship you can barely fly. This is nothing new; I was kind of mocking your ignorance.
"A few percentage points"? Right now your horribly skilled raven is doing about 260 dps with the missiles alone. A max skilled raven with t2 launchers (people use caldari navy launchers mostly, so this number is lower than normal) is 477.
That's a fairly big difference.
Just so you know, the Raven is the poor man's mission boat, and isn't the fastest nor best mission boat by far.
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Cavazos
Caldari Xeno Tech Corp MACHI MISCHIEF
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Posted - 2009.06.06 02:35:00 -
[6]
well tanking wise the raven doesnt have the 7.5% shield boost bonus. but the maelstrom w/ AC's can burn through ammo at like what a 3sec RoF? and the cruises have a 8-11sec RoF will take a lil longer but maybe if you group the cruises itll help some.
tbh id reccomend drake or nighthawk the nighthawk i had ran 6x heavy missile launcher IIs at 5.8sec RoF which was constant spammage. the drake is just a great ship and cheap for missions
[Nighthawk, New Setup 1] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II
Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Kinetic Deflection Amplifier II Heat Dissipation Amplifier II Shield Recharger II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile [empty high slot]
Core Defence Field Purger I Core Defence Field Purger I
Hobgoblin II x5
that isnt the exact fit i used but is very nice with a 360-380 dps PST and over 300 DPS w/ a 5.3sec RoF.
ummm i know i got off subject but id really recommend nighthawk bud =] [url=http://meth.splintersphere.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=4981] [/url] |
Ichandasil
Minmatar Department of Defence
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Posted - 2009.06.06 02:57:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Atsuko Ratu Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 06/06/2009 02:31:37
Originally by: Ichandasil
Reading comprehension fail.
Spending the weeks getting the skills to 4 will gain me a few percentage points of performance increase here and there, will it be massively better than what I have now or just a little? From what I see, maybe just a little.
When it comes to the close range stuff I don't ever see cruise missiles being better than large ac's. You'd have to over double their current performance to match.
Just so you know, cruise missiles are the long range missiles. "Acs" are the short range projectiles; if you mean autocannons.
I can read just fine. You're saying that your well skilled BS is outperforming a ship you can barely fly. This is nothing new; I was kind of mocking your ignorance.
"A few percentage points"? Right now your horribly skilled raven is doing about 260 dps with the missiles alone. A max skilled raven with t2 launchers (people use caldari navy launchers mostly, so this number is lower than normal) is 477.
That's a fairly big difference.
Just so you know, the Raven is the poor man's mission boat, and isn't the fastest nor best mission boat by far.
Actually, EFT gives me a DPS of 296 with missiles alone right now, but you're right, getting everything to 5 puts me near 470. But putting all my gunnery skills to 5 puts me near 430. So for weeks of more training I gaine 40 dps but still have to contend with about a third of my DPS dying to defender missiles in the Raven. And right now, EFT has my Mael at 214 dps for guns alone and it's blowing away the Raven at EFT 296 for long range fights.
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari Interstellar eXodus
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Posted - 2009.06.06 03:04:00 -
[8]
Defenders do not destroy a third of your dps. At most it's 1/6th overall.
I'm not sure what you're posting about, to be honest. Are you trying to... disprove something? oO
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Ichandasil
Minmatar Department of Defence
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Posted - 2009.06.06 03:25:00 -
[9]
They easily destroy a third. At 75km when I shoot 6 cruises at a BS two will die to defenders on the way, at least, that's a third.
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Cavazos
Caldari Xeno Tech Corp MACHI MISCHIEF
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Posted - 2009.06.06 03:35:00 -
[10]
then max yoyur missile skills and make them zzzzoooommmm like sonic the fast dude =p |
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Kazang
Gallente Wrecking Shots
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Posted - 2009.06.06 09:25:00 -
[11]
My 868 dps mission domi beats both you raven and you mael /flex
Im not sure what you are getting at though really..... so the raven isn't the best mission boat? If that's it then that fact is not exactly news. One major difference is you cant get a Fleet issue maelstrom but you can get a CNR. No T2 mael either but a golem is a beast at missions.
Also flying a ship without the related skill at least 4 is fail.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.06.06 10:15:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Kazang My 868 dps mission domi beats both you raven and you mael /flex
Im not sure what you are getting at though really..... so the raven isn't the best mission boat? If that's it then that fact is not exactly news. One major difference is you cant get a Fleet issue maelstrom but you can get a CNR. No T2 mael either but a golem is a beast at missions.
Also flying a ship without the related skill at least 4 is fail.
the varg might as well be a t2 maelstrom.
oh and no the raven doesn't tank as much as the maelstrom, but for level 4s it really, really doesn't ****ing need to. |
Red Spring
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Posted - 2009.06.06 11:21:00 -
[13]
TROLL WARNING***
Get a TYPHOON
I do every lvl 4 in one - 4 x arbalest cruise 1 drone control 2 x med art 1 x salvager/tractor beam
CHEAP and easy
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Pater Peccavi
Minmatar Cadre Assault Force
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Posted - 2009.06.06 13:31:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Kazang One major difference is you cant get a Fleet issue maelstrom but you can get a CNR. No T2 mael either but a golem is a beast at missions.
I have no idea what this means. You're evaluating ships by their faction and T2 variants? The bellicose has two T2 variants, but that doesn't make it a good ship.
Originally by: hi go Let the human be very annoyed! Another person is very repugnant! |
Johan Sabbat
R.E.C.O.N. Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.06.06 15:04:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Johan Sabbat on 06/06/2009 15:06:06
Originally by: Pater Peccavi
Originally by: Kazang One major difference is you cant get a Fleet issue maelstrom but you can get a CNR. No T2 mael either but a golem is a beast at missions.
I have no idea what this means. You're evaluating ships by their faction and T2 variants? The bellicose has two T2 variants, but that doesn't make it a good ship.
But getting a 17% dps upgrade by just swapping to the CNR (and fitting the 7th Launcher) is a lot of reason why people go the raven > CNR route.
Having said that, the low skill Raven took a huge nerf with the missile nerf.
p.s. OP Rapid Launch is a good missile skill to have
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2009.06.06 15:34:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Ichandasil Of course my missile skills aren't equal to my gunnery skills so I should expect the performance to be off.....[/quote
That much is correct. |
Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2009.06.06 16:41:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Omarvelous on 06/06/2009 16:43:12 Turret boats are specialized - Raven is general purpose.
TBH I hate the cruise raven for PVE, I use a tech 2 heavy missile drake with better results (stronger tank no need for target painters).
Don't train for a Raven to do missions in if you've got a T2 fit Maelstrom.
NPC's spam defender missiles, missiles take time to reach target, Raven lacks a native tank bonus, cruise missiles are annoyingly crappy at killing small things (precision heavy missiles in a Drake do the job way better).
Raven is popular because the time investment to fly one is small compared to it being able to do an OK job at PVE. You've invested a great deal more in a T2 fit Maelstrom, and you're goign to get a lot more out of it. |
Karl Luckner
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Posted - 2009.06.06 18:53:00 -
[18]
Oh man, the only reason to ever fly a Raven is as step stone to CNR and Golem. And yes, your T2 fit Maelstrom is lighyears ahead in running missions. |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.06 18:59:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Ichandasil They easily destroy a third. At 75km when I shoot 6 cruises at a BS two will die to defenders on the way, at least, that's a third.
1. They dont shoot that many defenders in general.
2. Weapons grouping called, it likes to have a word with you. Then the MAXIMUM you can lose is one sixth.
So there you allready got alot of extra dps.
I personally got exactly the opposite experience, i went from a navy mega filled with faction gear (okay it only had 2 faction magstabs, did have faction tracking comp), and good skills (lvl4 skills at least, large railgun at lvl 5 also), to a CNR with t2/named fitting with low skills (I had a DG large shield booster because i couldnt use t2 large, i still got a t1 boost amp on it, lvl 4 cruise missiles, crappy missile support skills), and i was faster in basicly every mission, also against serpentis, which should be best for navy mega. Now i got also faction stuff in my CNR (but less than for my mega since it isnt a royal PITA to fit, contrary to the mega), and basicly every relevant missile skill on lvl 4 (including cruise missiles), and it isnt even close. My cnr is just so much better. (and that is without TP, drones are invented for a reason).
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Solid Prefekt
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.06.06 19:17:00 -
[20]
I happen to have a Caldari and Minmatar char. My Minmatar has about 35 mil in Matar ships/weapons and I tried the Maelstrom a few times (BS V, T2 weapons, Adv Weapon Upgrade V, etc etc) and it did not compare to my Caldari char in mission running. With Caldari you get to pick your damage type and do not need to worry about falloff/optimal. You just start moving towards the gate as you kill everything along the way.
If your Maelstrom is better then the Raven at mission running then you are just doing it wrong and/or do not have the proper skills. With everything being equal, the Raven is a better mission runner. |
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Hotice
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Posted - 2009.06.06 19:25:00 -
[21]
With good gunnery skills, Maelstorm will out perform Raven without issue. Close range, use AC, long range use 1400mm or 1200mm. It tanks like nothing else, far better than Raven. You will do missions a lot faster in Maelstorm. Raven is good when you have little to no gunnery skills and that is about it. |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.06 21:50:00 -
[22]
But the raven has the cnr, and there is no way an artie mael outperforms a cnr with decent fitting. Additionally a raven can tractor stuff during the mission, tank is irrelevant (raven got sufficient, more isnt needed), raven can choose damage types much better, isnt affected by tracking disruptors.
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Liang Nuren
The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.06.06 21:58:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Solid Prefekt I happen to have a Caldari and Minmatar char. My Minmatar has about 35 mil in Matar ships/weapons and I tried the Maelstrom a few times (BS V, T2 weapons, Adv Weapon Upgrade V, etc etc) and it did not compare to my Caldari char in mission running. With Caldari you get to pick your damage type and do not need to worry about falloff/optimal. You just start moving towards the gate as you kill everything along the way.
If your Maelstrom is better then the Raven at mission running then you are just doing it wrong and/or do not have the proper skills. With everything being equal, the Raven is a better mission runner.
This is my experience as well. About the best you're gonna do is ~850 DPS (Incl Drones) at 30km with a Mael - and that's auto fit. You'll be chasing your happy ass all the way over the mission in order to lay down your DPS, and that's assuming that you actually had decent range and great tracking.
On the flip side, the Raven is dropping out 760 DPS all the way out to lock range, and bbq'ing cruiser/BCs in 2 volleys and BS's in but a few - long before you're able to get your Mael into range to lay your DPS down.
Ok, so you don't want to spend the whole time chasing your rats down only to find you're 45km from the gate and need to AB back? Ok, so you fit an Arty Mael. Now you top end at 760 DPS (Same as the Raven), and so the game should be on amirite?
No, because while your Raven is BBQing anything bigger than a cruiser and might lose 1/6th of its DPS to defenders, you're losing hella DPS to your tiny ass clip size and ridiculously low tracking.
And all of that ignores damage type selection and the ability to go for the CNR (which is unquestionably better, and requires no extra skills) or the torp Golem (which is apparently immune to Defender spam).
Blah, the Mael can run level 4 missions, but it's nowhere in the same league as the Raven class of ships.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Ichandasil
Minmatar Department of Defence
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Posted - 2009.06.06 23:35:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Solid Prefekt I happen to have a Caldari and Minmatar char. My Minmatar has about 35 mil in Matar ships/weapons and I tried the Maelstrom a few times (BS V, T2 weapons, Adv Weapon Upgrade V, etc etc) and it did not compare to my Caldari char in mission running. With Caldari you get to pick your damage type and do not need to worry about falloff/optimal. You just start moving towards the gate as you kill everything along the way.
If your Maelstrom is better then the Raven at mission running then you are just doing it wrong and/or do not have the proper skills. With everything being equal, the Raven is a better mission runner.
This is my experience as well. About the best you're gonna do is ~850 DPS (Incl Drones) at 30km with a Mael - and that's auto fit. You'll be chasing your happy ass all the way over the mission in order to lay down your DPS, and that's assuming that you actually had decent range and great tracking.
On the flip side, the Raven is dropping out 760 DPS all the way out to lock range, and bbq'ing cruiser/BCs in 2 volleys and BS's in but a few - long before you're able to get your Mael into range to lay your DPS down.
Ok, so you don't want to spend the whole time chasing your rats down only to find you're 45km from the gate and need to AB back? Ok, so you fit an Arty Mael. Now you top end at 760 DPS (Same as the Raven), and so the game should be on amirite?
No, because while your Raven is BBQing anything bigger than a cruiser and might lose 1/6th of its DPS to defenders, you're losing hella DPS to your tiny ass clip size and ridiculously low tracking.
And all of that ignores damage type selection and the ability to go for the CNR (which is unquestionably better, and requires no extra skills) or the torp Golem (which is apparently immune to Defender spam).
Blah, the Mael can run level 4 missions, but it's nowhere in the same league as the Raven class of ships.
-Liang
You're just wrong. Tracking is a non-issue for long range targets, they're coming right at me. For most of my missions I'm using ammo that has optimal at 70+ so I'm hitting hard all the time, and getting nice crits, something the missiles can't do. And my damage is instant with no defenders raping my DPS, as I've personally experienced now.
I only use AC's in missions that have close orbiters so I don't chase anything. The Maelstrom is in the same league as the Raven; maybe not a CNR or Golem. |
Funnelhead
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Posted - 2009.06.07 00:15:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Funnelhead on 07/06/2009 00:16:06 That's excellent. Fly the Mael then. Everyone's happy.
But... since you've already stated that your skillpoints aren't in the same ballpark for the Raven, you don't actually have any real basis for a fair comparison of the two. It's been made clear by most people who can fly said ships properly, that the Mael doesn't really match it.
So, to recap: you don't have the SPs in the right place for a comparison on your own merits, and yet you're telling experience players that they're wrong. Remind me then: what's the point of your thread? Logical debate perhaps?
I fly L4's in my pod if that helps at all. The dps is below par, but hey, you can warp out quick when it gets hairy.
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Solid Prefekt
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.06.07 00:17:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Solid Prefekt on 07/06/2009 00:18:03
Originally by: Ichandasil You're just wrong. Tracking is a non-issue for long range targets, they're coming right at me. For most of my missions I'm using ammo that has optimal at 70+ so I'm hitting hard all the time, and getting nice crits, something the missiles can't do. And my damage is instant with no defenders raping my DPS, as I've personally experienced now.
I only use AC's in missions that have close orbiters so I don't chase anything. The Maelstrom is in the same league as the Raven; maybe not a CNR or Golem.
Nothing that was said was wrong. We are talking personal experience and, in my experience, the Raven is faster then a Maelstrom. That is with practically maxed out skills in Matari BS ships. If you have an Optimal of 70km then your DPS sucks and you can't change your damage type. You 'might' do better in certain missions, but for a well rounded mission ship it is the Raven all the way.
Trust me, I want to agree with you. I love my Minmatar character, but it just sucks at ratting and mission running (well, it is too bad in say a blood region).
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Liang Nuren
The Hull Miners Union Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.06.07 01:25:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Ichandasil You're just wrong. Tracking is a non-issue for long range targets, they're coming right at me. For most of my missions I'm using ammo that has optimal at 70+ so I'm hitting hard all the time, and getting nice crits, something the missiles can't do. And my damage is instant with no defenders raping my DPS, as I've personally experienced now.
I only use AC's in missions that have close orbiters so I don't chase anything. The Maelstrom is in the same league as the Raven; maybe not a CNR or Golem.
Maelstrom 8x 1400mm II (RF Fusion) Gistum A-Type MSB, 3x Hardener II, 2x SS TC (Optimal) 3x Domi Gyro, 2x Domi TE CDFS I, CDFS II, CCC II
DPS = 578@70km, Limited damage type selection
Raven 6x CN Cruise DG XL, Hvy Cap Booster II, 3x Hardener II, PWNAGE 4x CN BCU, DC II 3x Rigor I
DPS = 601@95km, Full damage type selection
CNR 7x CN Cruise DG XL, Hvy Cap Booster II, 3x Hardener II, PWNAGE 4x CN BCU, DC II Rigor II, 2x Rigor I
DPS = 701@95km, Full damage type selection
Note that if the CNR loses a sixth of its DPS to defenders, it still outdamages your Maelstrom - and that's assuming that you Maelstrom never needs to reload and always hits.
Now, again, I will tell you that I have a virtually maxed out pimped super Minmatar pilot, and I have a virtually maxed out pimped super Caldari missile pilot. The Raven (never mind the CNR or Golem) IS better at missions than the Maelstrom can ever hope to be.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Wannabehero
Absolutely No Retreat
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Posted - 2009.06.07 01:34:00 -
[28]
To many opinions for me to want to enter the fray, so I will just leave this little tidbit about flying a Raven (or any PVE missile boat)
GROUP YOUR FREAKIN LAUNCHERS!
Defenders have a fixed percentage chance to launch PER MISSILE fired, based on the NPC
Grouped missiles count as a single uber missile
I think you can see where the math leads... That's right... 1/6 as many defenders launched if your missiles are grouped (for a raven). --
Don't harsh my mellow |
Lego Maniac
Minmatar Dusty Death Enterprise Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.06.07 03:30:00 -
[29]
missile projection to 4 or 5, faster missiles = less defender hits |
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