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Minmater... just not fun...

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Justice Done	Posted - 2009.06.07 23:59:00 - [1] My main is a Min character with 12 million sp. Since about 4 mill sp I've worked very hard on tanking and gunnery skills. I do level 4s in a Maelstrom, rat in 0.0 in a Hurricane. Problem is, I hate being Minmater. I should have the choice of being a good gunboat character, but it doesn't work. I have very limited missile skills, because I want to be able to be something rare: a pure gunnery character. On missions, I see guys in Drakes absolutely carve up missions where my Maelstrom gets made to look crap. Everyone just uses missiles, and I can see why. I've tried everything to make my gunboats work, but they are just not as good. I feel my entire Eve experience is being wasted, because the weapons path I have headed down is completely crap. And don't even get me started on drone missions... close in the Maelstrom can't hit ** and far out the Maelstrom can't hit **. 800mm, 1200mm, 1400mm - all crap on drone missions. If you are a Minnie character, do yourself a favour and just decline any drone mission.
IVeige	Posted - 2009.06.08 06:30:00 - [2] At 12 millions skills points... you shoudn't be in a battleship. Especially a minmatar one. One of the most skill intensive race.
Lilith Krell	Posted - 2009.06.08 08:43:00 - [3] Edited by: Lilith Krell on 08/06/2009 08:44:36 Originally by: IVeige At 12 millions skills points... you shoudn't be in a battleship. Especially a minmatar one. One of the most skill intensive race. Indeed, at 12 million SP's I can't see how you even have the support skills to make a Mael work well, let alone enough to make guns work...wait till you have 12 mil in gunnery THEN come and complain... Minmatar are the the most skill intensive race, they are the game on hard mode - if you wanted to be in a battleship after a few months then yes you should have trained missiles and Caldari - they are the game (missions) on easy mode. But, TBH, minny are a lot more fun once you get your skills up, warping to a deadspace pocket, pressing F1-F7 and watching your missiles carve everything up (slowly if you only had 12mil SP's) really isn't my idea of fun...persevere, it's worth it in the end, and for sub battleship PVP minny are loads of fun! My suggestion is sell your Mael, buy a Cane (or a Cyclone if you want a real challenge) and put your SP's into getting your support skills high (eng, elec, mech) and T2 medium projectiles with all the gunnery support skills high (like IV or better yet V)... PS - oh and train drone skills, a flight if light drones will carve up NPC drones like they weren't even there, that or EM smartbombs...
General Trajan Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.06.08 14:29:00 - [4] put 2 mil more sp into gun support and missile support then see if you still feel the same way then. you will be surprised how much the support skills will make your ships performance better with just T1 weapons and drones. all the support skills are the key. get those all to 4s before you move on to T2 weapons and drones. so i say keep your min char and watch things start coming togerther over the next 2 mil sp! good luck.
Abel Geiss	Posted - 2009.06.09 13:42:00 - [5] Originally by: Justice Done because I want to be able to be something rare: a pure gunnery character. Yep. There's your problem. Skill for the ship, not for the biggest guns you can find.
Gaius Balthazzar	Posted - 2009.06.09 14:44:00 - [6] Edited by: Gaius Balthazzar on 09/06/2009 14:44:34 nvm
Prince Malchezaar	Posted - 2009.06.09 14:44:00 - [7] Originally by: IVeige At 12 millions skills points... you shoudn't be in a battleship. Especially a minmatar one. One of the most skill intensive race. Nonsense. I got in my Maelstrom at 9 million SPs or so (with millions of SP allocated to learning and mining skills) and started running L4 missions. All that Isk you make running L4s is great to accumulate while you are training your peripheral skills. You aren't the fastest mission runner on the block, but at least you can make hundreds of millions of ISK while your skills are training up. The risk/reward of L4s versus L3s make it a no brainer to go in while somewhat underskilled. I'm at 12 million now, and none of the missions are challenging. It may take longer than other races, but its easy ISK, anyway. Lets face it, NPC AI is pretty stupid, and if you have any clue about tactics, you aren't going to lose ships. I think I lost 1 BS early when my machine locked up due to alt tabbing. All you have to do is load ammo/shields appropriate to your opposition, let your drones take out their frigates, and use your warp to keep reasonable range.
Dodgy Past	Posted - 2009.06.09 15:34:00 - [8] At 6m skills I have most support 4 / 5 and am training most of the support to 5. Managing pretty well on Angel missions in an Abaddon, even starting to be able to drop the tank slightly in favour of gank and it's definitely a lot more profitable than level 3s. My only gaping hole is T2 guns and that's because with best named the only benefit I really wish I had was scorch, though getting to T2 larges would have been a massive investment that wouldn't have paid me back as well, especially since I'm now hitting the more PvP support skills such as overheating before training up a mixture of T2 weapons and ships starting from the bottom up a second time. To get to that point I spent a lot of time in EFT and reading the forums to get a feel for what was the most efficient way to get a reasonable mission set up and then stuck to that goal. After all I'm hoping missioning isn't your main goal, but just a way to generate cash for other pursuits. Once you get into those other pursuits then you'll find that Minmatar has a lot to offer.
Vaelos Daoine	Posted - 2009.06.09 17:26:00 - [9] Edited by: Vaelos Daoine on 09/06/2009 17:27:29 I'm a minmatar character with 7.8 million SP (2.4m in gunnery) and I'm doing level 4's in a Maelstrom with no problems so far. I've yet to find a mission I can't do. I use scout 1400's and have no problem hitting BS's at any range, and cruisers and frigates from 30-80km away. Anything closer than that can be a pain, but get some drones. A Maelstrom can carry 5 Hammerhead II's and 5 Hobgoblin II's and they just eat up cruisers and frigates that you can't hit with artillery. Everything small should be dying at 40+km in a couple of volleys if you're doing the right damage type and prioritizing your targets right. People say all the time that you need massive SP to fly minmatar, and that may be true, to use them to their fullest potential. I just don't see how you can call the Maelstrom, with 8 turrents, anything but THE minmatar gunship - and most people who pve in Maelstroms will tell you that they do indeed work. Maybe not quite as well, but we're talking inches not miles. It sounds like your problem is a combination of things - I'd suggest looking up each mission and planning which ships you're gonna take down first (most mission guides tell you the range of each spawn) and make sure you're using the right damage type for the NPC you're fighting. If you're having trouble hitting anything cruiser-size and up at range, you can fit a tracking computer and work on lowering transversal manually. If you really "hate" being minmatar, knock yourself out and crosstrain. In a perfect world, they'll get the boost just about the time you buy a raven.
Gaius Balthazzar	Posted - 2009.06.09 19:53:00 - [10] Originally by: Vaelos Daoine I'm a minmatar character with 7.8 million SP (2.4m in gunnery) and I'm doing level 4's in a Maelstrom with no problems so far. I've yet to find a mission I can't do. That's been exactly my experience. I don't know if I would risk my Mael in PvP or anything, but it had no problems with L4s with low skills. I really don't understand the "shouldn't fly Minmatar BS with only 12 million SP" thinking. If you are having problems with the NPC rats, its a tactics problem or you don't know how to fit your ship. Its probably not lack of SPs.
Anarkia Evangel Slacker Industries	Posted - 2009.06.10 12:27:00 - [11] I find it silly when people say you can't "use" "this ship" because of you low skill points, its more to do with player skill, knowing how to fly the ship. I had an alt in a raven rating in 0.0 with less than 1 million skill points, back in the day. It will be slower, and maybe more difficult with lower skill, and minmatar are not the easiest race to use skill point wise, with low skill points you can't beat missile ships at doing missions. I figured this out after 3 year of using minmatar ships at missioning.
Ralara Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.06.10 13:01:00 - [12] Originally by: Anarkia Evangel I had an alt in a raven rating in 0.0 with less than 1 million skill points, back in the day. I'm gonna have to call you out on this. Even using tech 1 equipment and such, no rigs ... it's 702500 (ish) skill points to get in a raven, use cruise or torps, a large shield booster, some tech 1 hardners, tech 1 drones (well, 1 tech 1 drone I guess) and tech 1 bcs etc... I mean you could technically do it but... hmm. Could you even tank the higher spawns?
Otebski	Posted - 2009.06.10 13:44:00 - [13] I find it funny when people complain about level IVs with 12m SP. I did my first solo level IV mission in a cane at 1.5m sp. Of course it was just -12quality but still it was doable. Preplanning and right target order does the trick. I am at 2.5m right now and in 2 weeks I am swapping to mael and I got a fit ready that should be able to tank vast majority of level IV mission.
Vaelos Daoine	Posted - 2009.06.10 16:46:00 - [14] Yeah, Maels can tank like whoa - killing may be a little slower with low SP, but TBH I wish I'd jumped into level 4's sooner, I'm making so much more money than level 3's it's ridiculous. if I'm having trouble with anything at close range, it's HAC's because my drones take forever to kill them. Because of this, I make sure they're my #1 priority at range, and I can usually kill them while they're on the way in. OP, just adapt a little - it's definitely easier to jump in a raven and go to town, but if you adjust your playstyle a little I think you'll enjoy the Maelstrom much more.
Susung Alt Anti-defamation League	Posted - 2009.06.10 17:57:00 - [15] Yup minnie characters can be frustrating with low SP's. Think about trying to do lvl4's before the mael came along, missle skills and drones were a must. You will like it better after you have your gunnery and drone skills up. But dont even try to use caldari in fleet pvp its a waste of time. Matari are good at everything but not incredible at much, it makes them versatile but prone to tunnel visioned complaint threads.
IVeige	Posted - 2009.06.10 23:36:00 - [16] Originally by: Prince Malchezaar Originally by: IVeige At 12 millions skills points... you shoudn't be in a battleship. Especially a minmatar one. One of the most skill intensive race. Nonsense. I got in my Maelstrom at 9 million SPs or so (with millions of SP allocated to learning and mining skills) and started running L4 missions. I didnt say that you can't do lvl 4 missions in a batleships with very low skills... You simply shouldnt be in one at 12 m or 7 m skill points. OP is complaining about how drakes and missiles users seems to have it so easy compared to him in his big maelstrom. That he can't hit anything... how frustrating its becoming for him.. Sure you can rush to do lvl 4 while training your support for the isk. Being able to fly a ship is one thing, but having the skills points required to fly it properly make the ship alot more fun, less frustrating and alot more efficient..
Prince Malchezaar	Posted - 2009.06.11 14:41:00 - [17] Originally by: IVeige I didnt say that you can't do lvl 4 missions in a batleships with very low skills... You simply shouldnt be in one at 12 m or 7 m skill points. OP is complaining about how drakes and missiles users seems to have it so easy compared to him in his big maelstrom. That he can't hit anything... how frustrating its becoming for him.. Sure you can rush to do lvl 4 while training your support for the isk. Being able to fly a ship is one thing, but having the skills points required to fly it properly make the ship alot more fun, less frustrating and alot more efficient.. Shouldn't be in one til 12 million? Thats just nonsense. I guess fun and frustration and efficiency are relative things. Being stuck in L2 and L3 missions while spending months getting my skills up would be frustrating and inefficient to me. It was more fun and more profitable to me beating L4s with most gunnery skills at 3 and T1 weapons 3 or more months before I would have had my gunnery skills at the level you are discussing. Its pretty fast to train everything you need to 3, and skills of 3 still mean your mission running can be very productive. I'm still 2 months out from having T2 weapons, but at least I can make ISK while I wait.
Ohmebius	Posted - 2009.06.11 16:08:00 - [18] Originally by: IVeige At 12 millions skills points... you shoudn't be in a battleship. Especially a minmatar one. One of the most skill intensive race. I've been happily using my phoon since 7mill sp for lvl 4 missions. lots of fun :)
lacal Minmatar Vir Honns Lackeys	Posted - 2009.06.12 20:14:00 - [19] Edited by: lacal on 12/06/2009 20:23:57 Edited by: lacal on 12/06/2009 20:15:10 Originally by: IVeige At 12 millions skills points... you shoudn't be in a battleship. Especially a minmatar one. One of the most skill intensive race. I've had this discussion before - I started running lvl4's in a mael with 8*1400mm scouts at 2.6mill SP's, oh and a limited crystal set. Far too little most would say, but it gets you doing them, learning them and bringing in the isk while training. Doing as the OP is doing I concentrated on gunnery skills only, with some spaceship command while, building up my wallet. Now I'm at 12.5ish Mill Sp's (edit below) and running my missions in an ambit Vargur, tech 2 800's, full crystal implant set along with 4 more 5% implants. The only damage skills I'm lacking are Advanced Autocannon 5, Surgical strike 5 and trajectory analysis 5. Now don't get me wrong my skills are totally focused on the one aim of gank lvl 4 mission running. Crystal implant set (and gank) makes up for engineering deficiencies. Missile, leadership, electronics, industry, navigation and a whole lot more are virtually non existent. But that's the point, you can PVE effectively with minmatar and low sp's if you focus your skills - dont be expecting to do any pvp in your spare time however. Now I'm in a Vargur fighting angels with virtually max damage possible - to do minnie lvl 4 missions that's all you need, training anything else for that sole goal is a waste. Edit - I actually have 13.8 Mill Sp's my clone was for 12Mill odd - how time flies - ineve skill link here
Bronnwynn	Posted - 2009.06.13 02:18:00 - [20] 12m SP is too little for PvP in a minmy BS. NOT L4s. L4s aren't fun for anyone. Pure gunnery won't happen, at least very well.
Morel Nova z3r0 Gravity YARRR and CO	Posted - 2009.06.23 08:58:00 - [21] Originally by: Justice Done My main is a Min character Originally by: Justice Done I do level 4s in a Maelstrom Originally by: Justice Done rat in 0.0 in a Hurricane. I think I understand your problem. stop running missions all the time and try out pvp. all the caldari guys in our corp have started crosstraining minmatar because caldari is terrible for pvp (except some exceptions). I can fly most < BS ships up to t2 and I end up 90% in a minnie ship
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2009.06.23 09:18:00 - [22] Im preaty shure your problems with the Meal are mostly in the Fitting and tactic, not in the ship or SP. A proper fitted Mealstorm can deal out 2-3 times the DPS of the "I do level 4 in my Drake" fittings. Look for a good fitting first. Also I have zero issues with drone missions in a Mael...
Elric Redeye Ex Coelis	Posted - 2009.06.24 15:41:00 - [23] I totally get the whine over PvP skill needs but for missions I think your tears are unnecessary. I'm happily running L4's in my Mael with only 5M skill points. Other races may be faster to finish but I'm very rarely warping out to avoid destruction and I'm not frustrated. Sounds like you need to read available mission reports more closely. How are your drone skills? Mine are good and they make a BIG difference flying the Mael. Aside from Lt Scouts easily breaking scramble Frigs, Med Scouts add enough DPS to break tanks on NPC BS's quicker. I probably would be frustrated with weaker drones. At the same time, I happen to be cross-training Caldari because it is so darn easy. Maybe they'll buff Large Projectiles some day.
Justice Done	Posted - 2009.06.25 02:25:00 - [24] Ouch - "I think your tears are unnecessary"... harsh... I've had about ten ships (frigs, cruisers and BCs) killed in the last year in PVP without a tear in local or chat yet, so I don't know if I deserve that. And before you ask, I lost them when I was ratting in 0.0 or lowsec, and in most I got taken down by a gang. Was good fun though. I rat in 0.0 with two webifiers fitted and short-range guns - makes it fun when I get jumped. I love my hurricane for PVP, even if I suck at it (which I clearly do). Anyway, thank you all for the replys. Couple of general comments. Some of you think that I am struggling to finish Level 4s. I'm not. Generally speaking, I fit for the damage types and do okay. I can kill the frigs with drones eventually (i have drone interfacing etc), just takes a while. I could probably go a little faster if I studied available mission guides, but I prefer to try them myself first, and only revert to the guides if I get stuck. My complaint is not that I can't finish Level 4s, its that I can see others finish them a lot faster than me using missiles if they have similar skill levels. I can sit beside them in mission and watch them carve up targets much faster (e.g. twice faster) than me even if I'm at optimal. Therefore, I think there is a balance issue which makes being Minmater less fun than other races. Given that for a lot of people Level 4s fund the majority of their other game play, it is a big issue. Slower missions = Minmater players have less isk for PVP / pimping ships etc etc. I could cross train, but I guess I thought the point of a role playing game was to actually role play as the character you choose... Okay, maybe that is starting to stray towards tears...
Abel Geiss	Posted - 2009.06.26 11:40:00 - [25] Originally by: Justice Done Ouch - "I think your tears are unnecessary"... harsh... I've had about ten ships (frigs, cruisers and BCs) killed in the last year in PVP without a tear in local or chat yet, so I don't know if I deserve that. And before you ask, I lost them when I was ratting in 0.0 or lowsec, and in most I got taken down by a gang. Was good fun though. I rat in 0.0 with two webifiers fitted and short-range guns - makes it fun when I get jumped. I love my hurricane for PVP, even if I suck at it (which I clearly do). Anyway, thank you all for the replys. Couple of general comments. Some of you think that I am struggling to finish Level 4s. I'm not. Generally speaking, I fit for the damage types and do okay. I can kill the frigs with drones eventually (i have drone interfacing etc), just takes a while. I could probably go a little faster if I studied available mission guides, but I prefer to try them myself first, and only revert to the guides if I get stuck. My complaint is not that I can't finish Level 4s, its that I can see others finish them a lot faster than me using missiles if they have similar skill levels. I can sit beside them in mission and watch them carve up targets much faster (e.g. twice faster) than me even if I'm at optimal. Therefore, I think there is a balance issue which makes being Minmater less fun than other races. Given that for a lot of people Level 4s fund the majority of their other game play, it is a big issue. Slower missions = Minmater players have less isk for PVP / pimping ships etc etc. I could cross train, but I guess I thought the point of a role playing game was to actually role play as the character you choose... Okay, maybe that is starting to stray towards tears... Buy 10 Rifters & pvp for a week. Skill up, buy 2 Jags & pvp for a month. Minmitar = fun.
Ghoest	Posted - 2009.06.26 20:30:00 - [26] Anyone saying you cant fly battleships well at 12 million SP is a newb for life. If you have focused you should be fairly ggod at it. Obviously you can improve though. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Mavrk	Posted - 2009.06.28 02:42:00 - [27] Originally by: Otebski I find it funny when people complain about level IVs with 12m SP. I did my first solo level IV mission in a cane at 1.5m sp. Of course it was just -12quality but still it was doable. Preplanning and right target order does the trick. I am at 2.5m right now and in 2 weeks I am swapping to mael and I got a fit ready that should be able to tank vast majority of level IV mission. More proof Level 4's need a hefty buff in difficulty.
Erick Morillo	Posted - 2009.06.29 03:26:00 - [28] Originally by: Mavrk Originally by: Otebski I find it funny when people complain about level IVs with 12m SP. I did my first solo level IV mission in a cane at 1.5m sp. Of course it was just -12quality but still it was doable. Preplanning and right target order does the trick. I am at 2.5m right now and in 2 weeks I am swapping to mael and I got a fit ready that should be able to tank vast majority of level IV mission. More proof Level 4's need a hefty buff in difficulty. confirm
Drazion	Posted - 2009.06.29 18:28:00 - [29] 12 mil SP having problems? I'm running around with 7m SPs doing L4 Q18 missions in a domi no sweat. Granted, I invested my SP mainly in fitting T2 damage mitigation and drones - and rarely shoot anything so maybe that's why I can do it just fine with limited SP.
Akiba Penrose	Posted - 2009.06.29 23:06:00 - [30] Maybe this one ship will change your mind. [Sleipnir, Missionboat] Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II 10MN Afterburner II Large Shield Booster II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Shield Boost Amplifier II 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, EMP M Small Tractor Beam I Capacitor Control Circuit I Capacitor Control Circuit I Hobgoblin II x5 I havent tested the Vargur yet,, but this ship is pretty decent at doing lvl 4 missions. Fast, efficient and pretty fun to fly, and the best minmatar low sec mission boat for sure. Try it out.

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