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[Issue] RMT + character trade + market bots

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Fille Balle Dissolution Of Eternity Ethikos Trade Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.09 22:25:00 - [1] This issue relates to an ongoing duscussion in the market discussion part of the forum: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1093130&page=2 I used to think that RMT/isk farming had a minimal effect one the game/market, but this would indicate that it goes deeper than that. It's one thing to use market bots, but to involve 0.0 powerblocks and affect the GTC market and the character market makes it very different. Is CCP looking in to this(TM) or are they turning a blind eye? Surely something of such magnitude could not evade their observation? Read the thread, have a think. I think it's time for something to be done. The information in the thread suggests large scale market manipulation and trading characters for real money. Nobody buys 10+ characters per month at buyout price. That doesn't even make sense. I could understand somebody trying to resell characters, but then you wouldn't buy them at buyout. I think some investigation and possible bans are in order.
Fille Balle Dissolution Of Eternity Ethikos Trade Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.09 22:26:00 - [2] Supporting this thread.
Dragonz Fire The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.06.09 22:30:00 - [3] I support this
XetC	Posted - 2009.06.09 22:44:00 - [4] Hope they are able to do something though I am not sure how.
Ta'jek Angels Of Death EVE Free Worlds Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.09 22:44:00 - [5] all for them looking into it closely
Sucker Free	Posted - 2009.06.09 22:47:00 - [6] totally for this! how about remove all bots, not just market bots :D
Server Monkey	Posted - 2009.06.09 22:48:00 - [7] drives me to tears. The mechanics of the market will need to be altered. BOTs won't go away but penalties need to be hammered on those who use them. Detection being the key.
Packtu'sa Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp Nabaal Syndicate	Posted - 2009.06.09 22:56:00 - [8] I cannot claim to know the solution to this problem, but I agree that it is worth the CSM's attention as well as CCP's.
Solostrom	Posted - 2009.06.09 22:57:00 - [9] This topic deserves not only the CSM attention but the attention of Internal Affairs, the GMs, and the Devs. If one player can root this out... then EVERYONE @ CCP should be FIRED!
RJ Nobel	Posted - 2009.06.09 22:59:00 - [10] I fully support an investigation and public report on this issue.

Kata Dakini Flatiron Academy	Posted - 2009.06.09 23:15:00 - [11] An autistic girl at the school I work at always calls me a robot (wobot actually). However, I am not. I look forward to a new age in Eve, please address this issue. For more enjoyment and greater efficiency, consumption is being standardized.
Tsubutai	Posted - 2009.06.09 23:37:00 - [12] Ayup, supportin' dis.
Slave 2739FKZ	Posted - 2009.06.09 23:44:00 - [13] This crapp has to be fixed asap, it's prioritary!
Juliet SoulBurner	Posted - 2009.06.09 23:46:00 - [14] CAPTCHA?
von hohenheim	Posted - 2009.06.10 00:53:00 - [15] Definitely support this!
EvilSpork	Posted - 2009.06.10 01:26:00 - [16] +1 to support. bots suck. they throw off the balance of the game. i enjoy my cheap modules and whatnot that i can currently buy, but someone making IRL money by screwing up my in game economy... no bueno.
Kal London	Posted - 2009.06.10 01:38:00 - [17] IDK if CCP is willing to tackle this, but it's long overdue and obvious
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange	Posted - 2009.06.10 01:50:00 - [18] I don't like bots more than anyone else, but all this guy's done is trace alts. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to want a lot of alts. This isn't proof - this isn't even close to proof. If you're going to ban the number of accounts that this sort of activity implies, you're going to need a hell of a lot better reason than "he bought alts and didn't shave pennies doing it". And no, "he updates his trades quickly" is not proof that he's a bot. Provide some actual evidence and you might get somewhere, provide this level of fantabulation and I won't blame CCP for ignoring you. It's easy to say "fix the bot problem!!!1!", but you're not the one whose ass is out on the line, trying to tell legitimate, dedicated players that because they're too good at your game they're not allowed to play any more. Just how many honest players are you willing to false-positive accounts away from in your pursuit of a bot-free game? And don't bother answering that question - it's painfully obvious that most of you haven't even considered it. Yeah, I'd like to see fewer, but I'm not stupid enough to think that CCP is just ignoring the problem - unlike you, they actually have to look at the consequences of the decisions that you want them to make. No wonder they're more cautious than you lot.
Kal London	Posted - 2009.06.10 01:57:00 - [19] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto I don't like bots more than anyone else, but all this guy's done is trace alts. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to want a lot of alts. This isn't proof - this isn't even close to proof. If you're going to ban the number of accounts that this sort of activity implies, you're going to need a hell of a lot better reason than "he bought alts and didn't shave pennies doing it". And no, "he updates his trades quickly" is not proof that he's a bot. Provide some actual evidence and you might get somewhere, provide this level of fantabulation and I won't blame CCP for ignoring you. It's easy to say "fix the bot problem!!!1!", but you're not the one whose ass is out on the line, trying to tell legitimate, dedicated players that because they're too good at your game they're not allowed to play any more. Just how many honest players are you willing to false-positive accounts away from in your pursuit of a bot-free game? And don't bother answering that question - it's painfully obvious that most of you haven't even considered it. Yeah, I'd like to see fewer, but I'm not stupid enough to think that CCP is just ignoring the problem - unlike you, they actually have to look at the consequences of the decisions that you want them to make. No wonder they're more cautious than you lot. ouch. How's botting working out for you? jk? "trying to tell legitimate, dedicated players that because they're too good at your game they're not allowed to play any more" The problem is they're not legitimate, dedicated players, but akin to chinese gold farmers in WOW. Yea, it's one thing to say "You're reducing your own income" to get rid of the bots. But is it really worth it to the point where "legitimate, dedicated players" don't want to play anymore because it's ruining the game for everyone else?
Bunyip Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.06.10 02:59:00 - [20] During my stay in Reykjavik, I brought this issue up with the devs. They said that proof is the hard part, but that they're working on it. I was expecting some kind of action that would've rocked their world (due to the NDA, I can't go into details), but it still hasn't happened after 4+ months. It seems it will now happen SOON (Sometime Or Often Never). Something needs to be done, as this kind of abuse is offsetting the very thing that attracts many players (the laissez-faire market system). The effects also trickle down, and yet CCP has yet to exert any major effort without a huge effect (the POS exploit). Fly to any ice belt in high-sec, and you'll find some real players, but also a lot of bots. NPC 0.0 space is also pretty full of em. Caldari mission-runners tend to have a lot, and courier missions in low-sec are also pretty insane for botters. While I don't know what can be done, I've submitted ideas in the past. Something has to be done, and soon (sans the TM). Supported. "May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table.

Krathos Morpheus Legion Infernal Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.06.10 03:26:00 - [21] Yes, please.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.06.10 04:07:00 - [22] You guys make me laugh... seriously... It's utterly hilarious. "We should fire all of CCP if a single player can resolve this!" I lol'd ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= Dependable, Honorable, Intelligent, No-nonsense Vote Herschel Yamamoto for CSM!
Humwawa Marquie-X Corp Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.06.10 05:08:00 - [23] Also do something again the macrominers and couriermission bots !!!! SUPPORTED
ArmyOfMe The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2009.06.10 05:38:00 - [24] the post linked by the op just got locked while i was reading it
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.06.10 09:06:00 - [25] Originally by: Bunyip Fly to any ice belt in high-sec, and you'll find some real players, but also a lot of bots. Curious as I see exactly the opposite. I go to the ice belts in high sec that I know, some very near to Amarr, and I see only characters with regular names, doing what appears to be not botted ice mining. Naturally, I can't prove they aren't bots exactly as you can't prove they are. I think it is a matter of prospective: you (and a lot of people) want to mark as bots everyone that is not you mining and proof be dammed, I think that what is not proved can be suspected but is not proved. BTW: to the OP. Link the thread title. The link is not working currently.
Fille Balle Dissolution Of Eternity Ethikos Trade Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.10 09:28:00 - [26] Originally by: Venkul Mul BTW: to the OP. Link the thread title. The link is not working currently. lol, WTB tinfoil hat, in bulk. Need at least three family sets. Will pay cash! The thread has been erased (no, not locked, evaporated), so I can't link it I'm afraid. It was working yesterday, but today it's gone. I wonder why. I NEED SOME TINFOIL HATS!
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.06.10 09:36:00 - [27] Originally by: Fille Balle Originally by: Venkul Mul BTW: to the OP. Link the thread title. The link is not working currently. lol, WTB tinfoil hat, in bulk. Need at least three family sets. Will pay cash! The thread has been erased (no, not locked, evaporated), so I can't link it I'm afraid. It was working yesterday, but today it's gone. I wonder why. I NEED SOME TINFOIL HATS! Link it from Chribba server then (EVE files).
Fille Balle Dissolution Of Eternity Ethikos Trade Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.10 10:55:00 - [28] Righty o', new linky: http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1093130/page/1
Slave 2739FKZ	Posted - 2009.06.10 11:25:00 - [29] Originally by: Drake Draconis You guys make me laugh... seriously... It's utterly hilarious. "We should fire all of CCP if a single player can resolve this!" I lol'd You are the laugh here. Is not about firing anyone, but about bots. Anyone not supporting this is indirecttly supporting bots and agaisnt-eula advantage, what about CCP enforcing their own rules or making the gamefair for all? Stop this crapp. Is unfair for dedicated traders, and against-EULA when is a scheme for RMT.
Fille Balle Dissolution Of Eternity Ethikos Trade Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.10 11:36:00 - [30] Originally by: Slave 2739FKZ Originally by: Drake Draconis You guys make me laugh... seriously... It's utterly hilarious. "We should fire all of CCP if a single player can resolve this!" I lol'd You are the laugh here. Is not about firing anyone, but about bots. Anyone not supporting this is indirecttly supporting bots and agaisnt-eula advantage, what about CCP enforcing their own rules or making the gamefair for all? Stop this crapp. Is unfair for dedicated traders, and against-EULA when is a scheme for RMT. Actually, using bots/macro's is against the EULA irrespective of RMT. In my opinion, they should either allow bots/macro's, or do something about it. At the moment the only people that "can" use bots are people with a lot of resources and knowledge, as they can hide what they're doing better. This is why I feel that something needs to be done. I really don't feel that a lot is being done atm. All the threads I see about this every day kinda proves me right. The average player gets booted for botting/macroing, where as the big organized operations that have a real impact on the game get away with it. Unfair advantage anyone?

fuze Chosen Path Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2009.06.10 11:36:00 - [31] RMT is the most serious threat to Eve and albeit for us players its just a game we might lose but for CCP their jobs are at stake. They better should take this more serious since for years this is happening and up to a point that it is now seriously affecting the player community. And with those amounts of RL currency its not totally unthinkable that for certain individuals to withstand the temptation of bribes.
RedSplat Heretic Army	Posted - 2009.06.10 11:56:00 - [32] Originally by: CCP Mitnal I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting. Originally by: CCP Mitnal it does get progressively longer.
Pecker	Posted - 2009.06.10 13:59:00 - [33] especially after the Ricdic scam. RMT needs to STOP. Macros need to STOP. Bots that spam in local need to STOP. market bots need to STOP. miner bots need to STOP. market bots need to STOP. ratting/mission bots need to STOP. If none of the above are stopped then they should all be allowed. End of discussion.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.06.10 14:58:00 - [34] Edited by: Drake Draconis on 10/06/2009 14:59:35 Originally by: Slave 2739FKZ Originally by: Drake Draconis You guys make me laugh... seriously... It's utterly hilarious. "We should fire all of CCP if a single player can resolve this!" I lol'd You are the laugh here. Is not about firing anyone, but about bots. Anyone not supporting this is indirecttly supporting bots and agaisnt-eula advantage, what about CCP enforcing their own rules or making the gamefair for all? Stop this crapp. Is unfair for dedicated traders, and against-EULA when is a scheme for RMT. Who said I was supporting any of that crap? I said I was laughing at you people for being totaly stupid and idiotic to think that any amount of ideas you can generate would have a snowballs chance in hell of working. You need to keep in mind I have a knowledge in Server's and Sysadmins that maintain backend systems. Most of you gamers are all living in a fish-bowel that]s called EVE... you make a lot of stupid assumptions that would ruin the trades of actual legit but "I don't give a damn about talking to people" pilots out there. Coming up with all these ridiculous ideas of captcha and crap... makes me laugh. What would I give for CCP to come over here and lecture you twits about what it takes to stop these people... my kingdom for knowledge as one would put it. Yes.. it needs to be stopped... but I'm not about to fall in with a crowd of pitch forks and an angry mob who refused to think before they speak.
Fille Balle Dissolution Of Eternity Ethikos Trade Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.10 15:23:00 - [35] Edited by: Fille Balle on 10/06/2009 15:24:43 Originally by: Drake Draconis Who said I was supporting any of that crap? I said I was laughing at you people for being totaly stupid and idiotic to think that any amount of ideas you can generate would have a snowballs chance in hell of working. You need to keep in mind I have a knowledge in Server's and Sysadmins that maintain backend systems. Most of you gamers are all living in a fish-bowel that]s called EVE... you make a lot of stupid assumptions that would ruin the trades of actual legit but "I don't give a damn about talking to people" pilots out there. Coming up with all these ridiculous ideas of captcha and crap... makes me laugh. What would I give for CCP to come over here and lecture you twits about what it takes to stop these people... my kingdom for knowledge as one would put it. Yes.. it needs to be stopped... but I'm not about to fall in with a crowd of pitch forks and an angry mob who refused to think before they speak. You obviously haven't read the linked thread. The proof is: 23/7 0.01 isk wars. I know your not a doctor, so I'll explain: Normal people usually need more than one hour of sleep each day. Failing to sleep more than one hour each day for two weeks will kill a person. But bot... When CCP does not act on such obvious evidence, I start to wonder. Hence I'd like some tinfoil hats. And how many players have 30+ alts anyways? In fact, if any one person has 30+ alts, I think it's about time to limit each IP to one account logged on at any one time. And your right, real person > automated system, always. But where's the point in not using the resources that are freely available? What I read did not look like a bunch of people with pitchforks. More like a real person taking the effort to do some real research. And btw, just because you work in back-end server systems etc. yadda yadda doesn't mean that you know everything. In fact, it doesn't even mean that you are any good at it at all. Every time I speak to some one in the IT department in the company that I work for, I get this confirmed. This goes for all professions btw. Everyday I run in to people that are supposed to have a clue, and yet they're more clueless than me, that does not do what they do on a daily basis. If you where really good at it, you'd be telling us the advantages of various options, not that "nothing works". What you're saying is like a carpenter saying that a pneumatic nail gun is the only way to get a nail in to timber (yes, I have heard a carpenter say this). Edit: lame forums
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.06.10 15:37:00 - [36] I'm sorry... did you just tell me that your clueless as well? And just how do you plan on proving said theory? Do you know what the back-end looks like? Do you know what is actually logged on the servers? You have any sense of tracking TCP-IP packet datastreams in such a way to prove its a human being? Oh I don't deny the strong obvious suspicions but every other stupid idea I've read has a humongous potential for ruining an AFK Miners day. I have 3 Computers on my desk... I can only dedicated my attention to one of them at a time... I could be using my Mac Mini to be watching TV... my Winblows tower to play EVE.. my Macbook pro to check the forums... or code... or play a 2nd client of EVE... How the #### do you expect me to even give your stupid little rants any credability if you people have no bloody idea what your going on about? Again... if you've been paying attention... I have an issue just as much as everyone else... but your stupid little mob here is going to make it a total waste of time. You will not be heard... you will not be given any room.. why? because obviously CCP has been working on the problem...and for a hell of alot longer than you folk have been posting here and coming up with ideas. Sorry to be fatalistic and to burst your bubble... but all your doing is complaining and thats all your going to end up with.. a complaint thread. Until someone here can come up with a rational.... sensible idea that favors the legitimate ones... not going to support it. I didn't say I was an expert... I said I'm not stupid enough to assume that its that simple.. that's for sure as hell. Sleep patteren's and time spent online is a poor example... people do all nighters you know.. hell I know friends that stay up for insanely long hours of the day.. if they really wanted too! Youd be surprised just how far people will go to get into this game. Have you been following them none stop for 23/7? What proof do you really have? For over a week? For over a month? Pretty tall order if you ask me! Yes... there's a problem... but your going about it wrong. Do I have a better idea? How about letting the experts (CCP) handle it.. eh?
Kal London	Posted - 2009.06.10 17:07:00 - [37] Allusions to idiocy aside, CCP makes it clear that they do not want people having descussions over material such as this. Hence the recent thread disappearing act. That only tells me that they know it exists, and possibly: A. Don't want news of it to drive away players B. Don't want loss of revenue C. Already are doing everything they can I like to see talking about it nonetheless, it's a nice reminder that the general population is aware or at least familiar with bots and their sweeping effects on the real-time economy EVE provides. The general mass disregard of forums rules is interesting anyways, granted it's important enough imo.
Slave 2739FKZ	Posted - 2009.06.10 17:19:00 - [38] Exactlly, stop trolling. We don't care what do you work at neither your stupid reasons to say is perfectlly possible for a person to play 23/7 for weeks. If a person is playing 23/7 should be banned for failure at life anyway lol (yes, mob joking). If they have enough evidence why don't they act, is not like this crapp has been going for a week, market bots are wreckign havoc on some trade hubs on certain items since months. Stop excuses, act now. Either that or legalize bots for everyoen so we can officialy kill the damn game allready. Allowing people to camp free with all sort of bots is only an encouragement for others to do.
Cissenei	Posted - 2009.06.10 17:57:00 - [39] Botting accounts pay CCP's bills too. Directly or with ISK, there's always a real-cash game time purchase at the end of the chain. Fact. That being the case, any sane company would want full disclosure to convince people that the conflict of interests isn't getting in the way of fighting the botters. UNLESS the bot accounts are a large enough chunk of their business that it doesn't pay to shut it down. That's no conspiracy, just business. Now, there's the third possibility: CCP has their collective PR head up their exhaust nozzle again. They may figure out that keeping things hush-hush and fighting the secret war is the way to go. Until a PR scandal blows. Again.
SupaKudoRio	Posted - 2009.06.10 23:34:00 - [40] Quote: You are trying to post to a locked thread CONCORD has been notified Meep.

Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.06.10 23:47:00 - [41] Originally by: Kal London Allusions to idiocy aside, CCP makes it clear that they do not want people having descussions over material such as this. Hence the recent thread disappearing act. That only tells me that they know it exists, and possibly: A. Don't want news of it to drive away players B. Don't want loss of revenue C. Already are doing everything they can I like to see talking about it nonetheless, it's a nice reminder that the general population is aware or at least familiar with bots and their sweeping effects on the real-time economy EVE provides. The general mass disregard of forums rules is interesting anyways, granted it's important enough imo. Agreed... I don't mind discussion... but posting crap like "We should fire CCP" and "THIS MUST BE DEALT WITH" type of posts is stating the obvious that is so painful that not even my pain receptors would even bother to register due to being burned out. YES... WE KNOW THAT ALREADY. So discuss the problem... dont just complain... your trolling in your own damn thread people.. sheesh. Just be prepared to defend each and every little idea from the folks who multi-task and like to do things like cleaning there house while mining or something.
Slave 2739FKZ	Posted - 2009.06.11 01:29:00 - [42] You don't get it, do you? Bots run certain patterns, auto-update their orders every 5 min 24/7, have been doing for months. There are related alts doing some suspicious trading, controlling certain markets, this has been going for months. What more evidence do you need? How long have I (and everyone who is legal) to withstand this situation which is hampering my gaming experience? What about fairness? Should I just do the same crapp to compete? I'm not even sure you should be able to afk-mine, it's a ****ed mechanics, any game activity should be well... active. But that's an other entire issue. And, after all, what's the problem of asking CCP mroe info about this!** Soemntimes you say no, just for the sake of it, amirite?
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.06.11 02:10:00 - [43] Edited by: Drake Draconis on 11/06/2009 02:11:34 Originally by: Slave 2739FKZ You don't get it, do you? Bots run certain patterns, auto-update their orders every 5 min 24/7, have been doing for months. There are related alts doing some suspicious trading, controlling certain markets, this has been going for months. What more evidence do you need? How long have I (and everyone who is legal) to withstand this situation which is hampering my gaming experience? What about fairness? Should I just do the same crapp to compete? I'm not even sure you should be able to afk-mine, it's a ****ed mechanics, any game activity should be well... active. But that's an other entire issue. And, after all, what's the problem of asking CCP mroe info about this!** Soemntimes you say no, just for the sake of it, amirite? While your at it lets bann random names too... like your own. Lets ban the people that sit in stations for hours on end. Lets ban the ones that just do ________________________ . Getting the point yet? Nothing is as simple as it seems... its not as black and white as you make. Where does the line get put at? Who gets to judge that? All your doing is screaming.... so keep screaming... not a damn thing will come of it.
Naomi Knight Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.06.11 07:43:00 - [44] Edited by: Naomi Knight on 11/06/2009 07:43:10 About market bots : just increase the opertaion delay time for market orders modification to like 4hours or more that would greatly reduce bots effects on the market.
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange	Posted - 2009.06.11 10:53:00 - [45] Originally by: Pecker especially after the Ricdic scam. RMT needs to STOP. Macros need to STOP. Bots that spam in local need to STOP. market bots need to STOP. miner bots need to STOP. market bots need to STOP. ratting/mission bots need to STOP. If none of the above are stopped then they should all be allowed. End of discussion. Erm...how is Ricdic in any way related to a discussion of botting? I'm pretty sure that's one thing the fellow has never once been accused of. Originally by: Naomi Knight Edited by: Naomi Knight on 11/06/2009 07:43:10 About market bots : just increase the opertaion delay time for market orders modification to like 4hours or more that would greatly reduce bots effects on the market. Yes, because why should you actually have to play the game? That's just crazy talk!
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.06.11 11:10:00 - [46] Edited by: Naomi Knight on 11/06/2009 11:11:28 Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Yes, because why should you actually have to play the game? That's just crazy talk! So changing market orders every 5 mins is a fun to do and ppl play this game for this? Currently bots can undercut you every 5 mins or less if it uses more than one order, and this is only 1 botting char if there are 5 botting chars then this time would be less than 1 mins, until one of them outbids you.Then you have to modify your order every 5 mins to be able to sell your stuff --> realy boring task and not fun at all. If this time is increased to 4 hours or more ,your offer would be the lowest for much longer period and would greatly decrease the modifies needed. You are a moron or you are currently a bot user yourself.
Dapto Dissolution Of Eternity Ethikos Trade Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.11 12:07:00 - [47] I support this thread. But from what ive investigated the majority of isk framers/bots/macros are from china? well if the eve communtiy everytime u saw a isk farmer post in local everyone floods it with "Free Tibet Now" doing this will in effect bring the chinese goverment involved who'll shut them down and problem solved.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.06.11 14:25:00 - [48] Originally by: Naomi Knight Edited by: Naomi Knight on 11/06/2009 11:11:28 Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Yes, because why should you actually have to play the game? That's just crazy talk! So changing market orders every 5 mins is a fun to do and ppl play this game for this? Currently bots can undercut you every 5 mins or less if it uses more than one order, and this is only 1 botting char if there are 5 botting chars then this time would be less than 1 mins, until one of them outbids you.Then you have to modify your order every 5 mins to be able to sell your stuff --> realy boring task and not fun at all. If this time is increased to 4 hours or more ,your offer would be the lowest for much longer period and would greatly decrease the modifies needed. You are a moron or you are currently a bot user yourself. And your a Jackass for assuming that the markets are never like that... case and point... the stock exchange for this damned planet. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= Dependable, Honorable, Intelligent, No-nonsense Vote Herschel Yamamoto for CSM!
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.06.11 15:32:00 - [49] Originally by: Drake Draconis And your a Jackass for assuming that the markets are never like that... case and point... the stock exchange for this damned planet. This a game not a stock market simulator , go and take your realism ideas to this topic Reality Of Weapons. Also if you like the current market grind go and play a free korean mmo, ive heard they all about grind.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.06.11 15:45:00 - [50] Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: Drake Draconis And your a Jackass for assuming that the markets are never like that... case and point... the stock exchange for this damned planet. This a game not a stock market simulator , go and take your realism ideas to this topic Reality Of Weapons. Also if you like the current market grind go and play a free korean mmo, ive heard they all about grind. Ah so that's where your getting your so called delusional state mindset from? Hope your enjoying the game over there!

Kal London	Posted - 2009.06.11 16:54:00 - [51] Originally by: Dapto I support this thread. But from what ive investigated the majority of isk framers/bots/macros are from china? well if the eve communtiy everytime u saw a isk farmer post in local everyone floods it with "Free Tibet Now" doing this will in effect bring the chinese goverment involved who'll shut them down and problem solved. I lol'd
poonbomb	Posted - 2009.06.12 06:50:00 - [52] Bleh, obvious problem will never be fixed.
Lunewraith Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2009.06.12 07:14:00 - [53] Edited by: Lunewraith on 12/06/2009 07:15:43 I don't understand, what exactly are you proposing here? Do you want a widespread investigation into RMT in Character Sales, Ratting/Farming, Market Bots, what? Alliances, GTC sales? They all lead to some tinfoil conclusion about character sales judging by your post. I'm sure CCP loves to dig out RMT wherever they can find it. I've purchased and sold literally dozens of characters and GTC's. I don't see anything conclusive in your investigation and could easily believe you could add me, my alts and several other character resllers to a similar list. I don't do market bots or RMT, but insinuating I do could lead to similar, unsubstantiated conclusions. Not supported. If you want CCP to investigate suspected botting activity, petition it. Otherwise if you want to call for a more general investigation of RMT affecting the game, do so. Do a little work, get a free PLEX card!
Fille Balle Dissolution Of Eternity Ethikos Trade Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.12 07:59:00 - [54] Originally by: Lunewraith Edited by: Lunewraith on 12/06/2009 07:15:43 I don't understand, what exactly are you proposing here? Do you want a widespread investigation into RMT in Character Sales, Ratting/Farming, Market Bots, what? Alliances, GTC sales? They all lead to some tinfoil conclusion about character sales judging by your post. I'm sure CCP loves to dig out RMT wherever they can find it. I've purchased and sold literally dozens of characters and GTC's. I don't see anything conclusive in your investigation and could easily believe you could add me, my alts and several other character resllers to a similar list. I don't do market bots or RMT, but insinuating I do could lead to similar, unsubstantiated conclusions. Not supported. If you want CCP to investigate suspected botting activity, petition it. Otherwise if you want to call for a more general investigation of RMT affecting the game, do so. Not quite. The point is that some characters already have petitioned several characters, several times. It's been goin on for several months. What I'm proposing is that CCP seek new ways to aid them in combating this problem, and make some sort of statement on why they've not acted on those petitions. Usually when a company encounters a problem that they can not solve them selves, the only solution is to approach a consultant. Have they done so? In fact, the obvious steps before getting to that point, is do a bit of internal brainstorming, look at potential solutions, and approach companies that might have a better solution, and get their advice on how to combat the current problem. Another thing is, that CCP appears to not heed the advice of it's own customers. That is what this is all about. I want some answers, and I think the current level of efficiency is below a satisfactory threshold. I'm not saying that I think RMT/botting/macroing has to be removed completely from the game, because that's not really viable. There are no automated programs that can do this for you. But you can put automatic data analysis programs to work, and make them look for certain patterns. This way, you have an automatic program that tells you where to look for potential botters/macro's. Another thing that can be done, is to demand that each trial account has to be verified, either by credit card, or by passport if you haven't got a credit card. Also, demand that the first month of subscription on each account is paid by credit card, or some other manner of secure payment that verifies that you are a person. This would prevent people from running accounts that are not owned by a verified person, and make it harder to sell an account on ebay (eula states that you are not allowed to sell an account anyways). I think it might also be a good idea to limit how many alt accounts people have. These are just a few measures that can be taken in order to limit RMT/macros/bots. That is what I'm trying to get support for here. And if CCP wants to allow some people to use bots because they'll loose too many customers if they ban the large scale operations, then everyone should be allowed to use bots/macros. Even the playing field so to speak. I hope this clears things up a bit.
Lunewraith Ministry of War	Posted - 2009.06.12 08:25:00 - [55] Originally by: Fille Balle Originally by: Lunewraith Edited by: Lunewraith on 12/06/2009 07:15:43 I don't understand, what exactly are you proposing here? Do you want a widespread investigation into RMT in Character Sales, Ratting/Farming, Market Bots, what? Alliances, GTC sales? They all lead to some tinfoil conclusion about character sales judging by your post. I'm sure CCP loves to dig out RMT wherever they can find it. I've purchased and sold literally dozens of characters and GTC's. I don't see anything conclusive in your investigation and could easily believe you could add me, my alts and several other character resllers to a similar list. I don't do market bots or RMT, but insinuating I do could lead to similar, unsubstantiated conclusions. Not supported. If you want CCP to investigate suspected botting activity, petition it. Otherwise if you want to call for a more general investigation of RMT affecting the game, do so. Not quite. The point is that some characters already have petitioned several characters, several times. It's been goin on for several months. What I'm proposing is that CCP seek new ways to aid them in combating this problem, and make some sort of statement on why they've not acted on those petitions. Usually when a company encounters a problem that they can not solve them selves, the only solution is to approach a consultant. Have they done so? In fact, the obvious steps before getting to that point, is do a bit of internal brainstorming, look at potential solutions, and approach companies that might have a better solution, and get their advice on how to combat the current problem. Another thing is, that CCP appears to not heed the advice of it's own customers. That is what this is all about. I want some answers, and I think the current level of efficiency is below a satisfactory threshold. I'm not saying that I think RMT/botting/macroing has to be removed completely from the game, because that's not really viable. There are no automated programs that can do this for you. But you can put automatic data analysis programs to work, and make them look for certain patterns. This way, you have an automatic program that tells you where to look for potential botters/macro's. Another thing that can be done, is to demand that each trial account has to be verified, either by credit card, or by passport if you haven't got a credit card. Also, demand that the first month of subscription on each account is paid by credit card, or some other manner of secure payment that verifies that you are a person. This would prevent people from running accounts that are not owned by a verified person, and make it harder to sell an account on ebay (eula states that you are not allowed to sell an account anyways). I think it might also be a good idea to limit how many alt accounts people have. These are just a few measures that can be taken in order to limit RMT/macros/bots. That is what I'm trying to get support for here. And if CCP wants to allow some people to use bots because they'll loose too many customers if they ban the large scale operations, then everyone should be allowed to use bots/macros. Even the playing field so to speak. I hope this clears things up a bit. Wow, that's a far better summary and far more supportable. I'll endorse this as you've now provided practical questions and solutions to the problem posed.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.06.12 08:31:00 - [56] Originally by: Fille Balle Another thing that can be done, is to demand that each trial account has to be verified, either by credit card, or by passport if you haven't got a credit card. Also, demand that the first month of subscription on each account is paid by credit card, or some other manner of secure payment that verifies that you are a person. I suppose you are American as only you live and die by credit card. The idea of somehow sending your passport data by internet is another bad one. If your account get hacked you will have a lot of fun (and as passport data can be used for a lot of illegal activities, hacking accounts will become much more common as the return will be higher than simple credit card data theft). Another "small" point: rea you aware of the existence of the EVE game boxed set? the one with the nice 2 month GTC in it? Your brainstorm will make it useless and unsaleable. I have looked the thread you linked and there is nothing in it proving that the linked character are using bots. Only the declaration that it is so by the OP. He has dig up a lot of character sales and he claims they were sold at inflated prices. That, to me, sound more like a way to do isk exchanges in a apparently legitimate way, so maybe RMT, but there is no direct link in that to botting. For a botter it is much more useful to use "home grown" characters, especially if he is using a market bot, so a character that require very little as trained skills. As a final note I find very fun the people that say "I am forced to change my orders every 5 minutes and all the people that change orders every 5 minutes are bots". If you can change those orders every 5 minutes, what make you think other players can't? What make you think that with 40K players on line and several hundred with market orders in Jita only bots will change orders as soon as you do? You aren't competing with 1 character only, you are competing with hundred or thousands. Some bot exists (probably) but speaking like 99,99% of the market was dominated by bot is ridicule.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.06.12 09:02:00 - [57] Originally by: Venkul Mul very intelligent observations... Exactly... for there to be a true lock down of said nasty actions would require way too much personal information for it to be truly effective. Which is exactly why this stupid little witch hunt is just a stupid whinefest at best. You people need to keep in mind that just because CCP has not said one word about it... other than the implied comments and chit chat.... doesn't mean they aren't looking into it. for all we know they could be banning people left and right... and they don't need to tell anyone. CCP's default policy is to NOT tell you what they are up too when it comes to such actions. I don't expect that to change either. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= Dependable, Honorable, Intelligent, No-nonsense Vote Herschel Yamamoto for CSM!
Fille Balle Dissolution Of Eternity Ethikos Trade Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.12 09:53:00 - [58] Originally by: Venkul Mul I suppose you are American as only you live and die by credit card. I suppose you must live in Afganistan since you actually believe that americans are the only people in the world that can use credit cards. Besides, how else do you pay for anything on the internet? Paypal? How do you transfer your money to paypal? Debit card? And btw, no, I'm not american. I'm about as far from american as can be. Originally by: Venkul Mul The idea of somehow sending your passport data by internet is another bad one. If your account get hacked you will have a lot of fun (and as passport data can be used for a lot of illegal activities, hacking accounts will become much more common as the return will be higher than simple credit card data theft). Well then use a credit card. I use a credit card, and even though somebody would hack my account, they wouldn't be able to access my CC details. If you tried it, you'd understand how it works. I've been using CC's for numerous purchases over several years. I've never had my details stolen, and the only people who I know had their details stolen are so sub average IQ, that I'm wondering if the world wouldn't be better off without them. Besides, even if your details do get stolen, you can report it and get a refund. Originally by: Venkul Mul Another "small" point: rea you aware of the existence of the EVE game boxed set? the one with the nice 2 month GTC in it? Your brainstorm will make it useless and unsaleable. lol, will it? you still need to connect to the internet, and you still have to open up an account. Unless you know some way of avoiding this? All I'm asking is that each account is verified by a credit card. Lot's of services in this world require this, and not just on the internet. In the UK, you need a credit card in order to get a mobile phone. Considering how many people have mobile phones these days, I don't think it's too much to ask that you verify that you're a person via credit card. Originally by: Venkul Mul I have looked the thread you linked and there is nothing in it proving that the linked character are using bots. Only the declaration that it is so by the OP. You obviously haven't, and if you did, then you failed to understand it. Originally by: Venkul Mul As a final note I find very fun the people that say "I am forced to change my orders every 5 minutes and all the people that change orders every 5 minutes are bots". If you can change those orders every 5 minutes, what make you think other players can't? What make you think that with 40K players on line and several hundred with market orders in Jita only bots will change orders as soon as you do? You aren't competing with 1 character only, you are competing with hundred or thousands. Some bot exists (probably) but speaking like 99,99% of the market was dominated by bot is ridicule. Nobody ever said this in the thread. And the thread was not about that. Previous threads, that have been locked and removed by CCP showed the proof. Large scale manipulation of the rare implants market. And if you did read it, then you'd also know that the person removed over 80b worth of implants AFTER the thread was created. So, who's pointing fingers here? Who's making assumptions here? Who's making wild and bold statements about things they don't know anything about? Seems obvious to me.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.06.12 17:36:00 - [59] And I thought I was the paranoid one here.
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange	Posted - 2009.06.12 18:41:00 - [60] Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Yes, because why should you actually have to play the game? That's just crazy talk! So changing market orders every 5 mins is a fun to do and ppl play this game for this? Currently bots can undercut you every 5 mins or less if it uses more than one order, and this is only 1 botting char if there are 5 botting chars then this time would be less than 1 mins, until one of them outbids you.Then you have to modify your order every 5 mins to be able to sell your stuff --> realy boring task and not fun at all. If this time is increased to 4 hours or more ,your offer would be the lowest for much longer period and would greatly decrease the modifies needed. You are a moron or you are currently a bot user yourself. I trade in a whole lot of items, mostly related to invention. Some are more competitive than others - decryptors tend to get bumped every few minutes, unfashionable HACs every few hours - but none are half as bad as you describe. Most of the things that are that competitive(ferrogel, say) tend to fill 20 orders at once when someone actually does sell to a buy order, so it doesn't matter too much if you're on top. If market bots do exist(and yeah, they probably do), they aren't in half the fields I trade in, and they're not easily distinguishable from normal market activity in the other half. To this day, the fiercest competition I've had was from a guy competing with me to buy salvage - we ID'd each other, opened convo, and both of us watched movies on one monitor and bumped 4 orders on the other, plus occasional a bit of light conversation. Clearly human, and he was harder to buy things through than any Jita order I've ever put up. If Jita is less bad than a single human, I'm going to say that bots really aren't a problem. Also, consider the effects of what you propose. Make a mistake in your order, either because of lag or because of player error, and your botched order is up for four hours before you can pull it down. Is that really how things ought to work?

Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.06.12 20:27:00 - [61] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto Yes, because why should you actually have to play the game? That's just crazy talk! So changing market orders every 5 mins is a fun to do and ppl play this game for this? Currently bots can undercut you every 5 mins or less if it uses more than one order, and this is only 1 botting char if there are 5 botting chars then this time would be less than 1 mins, until one of them outbids you.Then you have to modify your order every 5 mins to be able to sell your stuff --> realy boring task and not fun at all. If this time is increased to 4 hours or more ,your offer would be the lowest for much longer period and would greatly decrease the modifies needed. You are a moron or you are currently a bot user yourself. I trade in a whole lot of items, mostly related to invention. Some are more competitive than others - decryptors tend to get bumped every few minutes, unfashionable HACs every few hours - but none are half as bad as you describe. Most of the things that are that competitive(ferrogel, say) tend to fill 20 orders at once when someone actually does sell to a buy order, so it doesn't matter too much if you're on top. If market bots do exist(and yeah, they probably do), they aren't in half the fields I trade in, and they're not easily distinguishable from normal market activity in the other half. To this day, the fiercest competition I've had was from a guy competing with me to buy salvage - we ID'd each other, opened convo, and both of us watched movies on one monitor and bumped 4 orders on the other, plus occasional a bit of light conversation. Clearly human, and he was harder to buy things through than any Jita order I've ever put up. If Jita is less bad than a single human, I'm going to say that bots really aren't a problem. Also, consider the effects of what you propose. Make a mistake in your order, either because of lag or because of player error, and your botched order is up for four hours before you can pull it down. Is that really how things ought to work? ^^^^^^^Common sense^^^^^^ Seriously... that is as real as it gets... hersch nailed it right on the head. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= Dependable, Honorable, Intelligent, No-nonsense Vote Herschel Yamamoto for CSM!
Dariah Stardweller	Posted - 2009.06.13 10:26:00 - [62] Originally by: Pecker especially after the Ricdic scam. RMT needs to STOP. Macros need to STOP. Bots that spam in local need to STOP. market bots need to STOP. miner bots need to STOP. market bots need to STOP. ratting/mission bots need to STOP. If none of the above are stopped then they should all be allowed. End of discussion. While I have serious doubt you can stop them alltogether, CCP needs to act. The only acting they do now is remove and/or lock any thread regarding bots. Even if the thread gives simple advice on how to combat bots and does nothing else. Like this one http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1065717
Lord Cath	Posted - 2009.06.13 10:33:00 - [63] supporting, first of all becuz I think the bot problem should be looked into, rather then ignored. Second of all becuz I think there's something fishy with closing and erasing every thread that talks about them.
kevin kear	Posted - 2009.06.13 11:35:00 - [64] Edited by: kevin kear on 13/06/2009 11:34:52 Originally by: Drake Draconis I have a knowledge in Server's and Sysadmins that maintain backend systems. Well golly gee..you got IT skills? That'll shut everyone up, good job. Sorry to break it to you but half of eve player base works in IT/Engineering/Dev. I support this because I want to hear more quality Drake trolling.
Drake Draconis Minmatar Shadow Cadre	Posted - 2009.06.13 14:24:00 - [65] Originally by: kevin kear Edited by: kevin kear on 13/06/2009 11:34:52 Originally by: Drake Draconis I have a knowledge in Server's and Sysadmins that maintain backend systems. Well golly gee..you got IT skills? That'll shut everyone up, good job. Sorry to break it to you but half of eve player base works in IT/Engineering/Dev. I support this because I want to hear more quality Drake trolling. You can read... good for you... hope that works out for you.
Sir SmellyFart State War Academy	Posted - 2009.06.13 16:30:00 - [66] Time to act CCP. Against the botters that is, not against threads that mention them.
sir gankalot	Posted - 2009.06.14 14:01:00 - [67] This thread, I supportz it!
Belmarduk Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2009.06.19 00:32:00 - [68]


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