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cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2009.06.11 14:03:00 -
[1]
After the current issues of SCAMS (including EBANK), it got me thinking about acceptable levels of risk in the secondary market.
At first RJ Nobel released his excellent portfolio data:
RJ Nobel Post
Portfolio Data
I discussed that I would release my updated data on IPO's and bonds that I have been collecting.
My spreadsheet (enclosed below), has most OPEN or SUCCESSFULLY CLOSED IPO's and Bonds from the past year or further back for some.
With each bond and IPO I have given MY risk assessment of the business, and the reputation of the manager. This has been done looking at:
1. The business launch
2. The manager's responses
3. Reporting
4. Length of success
5. MD posting history
6. Business success
I have chosen not include the SCAMS or the failed business launches.
Comments:
I have a section on banks, and in the wake of the EBANK SCAM I don't think it can hold the same low level of risk it once did. There is certainly no justification of owning a sweep account (IMO) as it pays no interest.
The document itself is a working document and if there are other IPO's/bonds out there that are being run and I have missed please enclose a link and I will add to the document.
Enjoy, and please give feedback.
IPO/BOND DOCUMENT
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Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll
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Posted - 2009.06.11 14:08:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Ji Sama on 11/06/2009 14:09:19
thanks will read now!
EDIT:
TMPI was audited and the ROI is currently at 10%
Also, good work thanks for doing this... |
eVaLF
Delivery Luck
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Posted - 2009.06.11 14:24:00 -
[3]
May sound silly but can you add DTRUK?
DTRUK Bond - 20bil Isk, payout depends on how long you hold it, think its 4.16% if you hold it 6mths. No security, no audit.
DTRUK/BSAC - Ice Index, About 22bil Isk atm, no security as I could walk away with everything, BLOCk does watch my wallet very closely though. |
RothimusPrime
Honored By Death
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Posted - 2009.06.11 14:26:00 -
[4]
Good info and helpful!
Thanks |
cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2009.06.11 14:32:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: eVaLF
May sound silly but can you add DTRUK?
DTRUK Bond - 20bil Isk, payout depends on how long you hold it, think its 4.16% if you hold it 6mths. No security, no audit.
DTRUK/BSAC - Ice Index, About 22bil Isk atm, no security as I could walk away with everything, BLOCk does watch my wallet very closely though.
Added |
Dzil
Caldari
Waffles Reloaded
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Posted - 2009.06.11 14:35:00 -
[6]
Originally by: cosmoray
After the current issues of SCAMS (including EBANK), it got me thinking about acceptable levels of risk in the secondary market.
Thank you - MD doesn't see nearly enough contributions like this anymore.
While the reputation/comments is entirely subjective, you've done a good job of being explicit about this up front.
I think for there to truly be a secondary market, there needs to be more folks like Cosmo that have the time and understanding to evaluate the current market offerings, highlight important changes/updates, and offer some direction to new investors. Again this is biased to cosmo's opinions, but I'd argue there's more information in this little spreadsheet than CCP's entire "quarterly newsletter".
o7
Dzil
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Breaker77
Reclamation Industries
New Eden Research
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Posted - 2009.06.11 14:48:00 -
[7]
My offering if you wish to include it as well. |
cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2009.06.11 14:55:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Breaker77
My offering if you wish to include it as well.
I won't list it yet.
The business isn't open and hasn't paid any dividends.
When it does I will add to high risk assessment. |
testirania
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Posted - 2009.06.11 15:01:00 -
[9]
Your missing FIMD/FIRD on the list, not sure how it should be rated atm with the current inactivity of the CEO. |
Marcus Baltar
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Posted - 2009.06.11 15:08:00 -
[10]
Not sure if this one should be included as I am not sure of its status.
Been a bit quiet recently (last dividend 25th March), but not closed as far as I know, and was well respected and run by a MD personality; Ghost Emperor.
Eve Mutual Fund Inc. (EMFI)
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Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll
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Posted - 2009.06.11 15:10:00 -
[11]
imo kazzac, noble and cosmo should form some kind of reporting team.....
then charge a "symbolic fee" depending on the Business requesting the reports.
indexes like the ones we see ofcourse should remain public for all to see free of charge...
just my 5 cents :p |
Amarr Citizen 155
Alternative Methods Research Group
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Posted - 2009.06.11 15:31:00 -
[12]
Nice work cosmo although I would like to make one suggestion. You use the term "EBANK SCAM" or associate the recent events at ebank as being a "SCAM". I think the correct term here, and one that we haven't really ever used, would be embezzlement. No depositors lost their isk due to the current events. Unlike other investments that ended badly, every EBANK customer's isk is safe and accessible along with any accrued interest. TBH, and this is my personal opinion, Ric only embezzled profit that he himself most likely made which makes the term "SCAM" even less useful here.
I've always been a fan of your work in this area and the data you collect/analyze.
Sometimes people get disappointed. |
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.06.11 15:35:00 -
[13]
Massively agrees, that it's embezzlement
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Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll
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Posted - 2009.06.11 15:35:00 -
[14]
ye but we (the public) dont know that AC...
its all good an dandy, and you, lvv. athre and most importantly hexxx are the reason i trust EBANK....
i know EBANK "isnt about the person" but to me, business is indeed the persons running the show....
Quote:
"Lecherito on Market Discussion: Though I have to go down on the record as saying that I'm convinced the majority of the MD community is ******ed" |
Packtu'sa
Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp
Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.06.11 15:36:00 -
[15]
Nicely done, cosmoray. I can't argue with any of the risk ratings.
A couple notes about NCIC: The first bond was 2bn ISK total, and both bonds paid/pay 4.5%/month, as determined by Dutch auction.
Packtu'sa
Founder/CEO, Nabaal Construction and Industrials Corp [NCIC] |
Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll
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Posted - 2009.06.11 15:37:00 -
[16]
lvv, we have 4 terms/categories or so... no reason to add embezzlement (sounds like drunk scamming or something) to these, as it fits fine within SCAM
SCAM
CLOSED
DEFAULT
OPEN
Quote:
"Lecherito on Market Discussion: Though I have to go down on the record as saying that I'm convinced the majority of the MD community is ******ed" |
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.06.11 15:39:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Ji Sama
lvv, we have 4 terms/categories or so... no reason to add embezzlement (sounds like drunk scamming or something) to these, as it fits fine within SCAM
SCAM
CLOSED
DEFAULT
OPEN
Actually, there's several attributes:
Current status:
Open
Closed
If closed, following attribute can be attributed:
Success
Default(The principle was lost, but investors got back any put forward collateral)
Scam(Person ran away with ISK on intention)
EBANK is still open, as is still a success.
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Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll
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Posted - 2009.06.11 15:41:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Ji Sama on 11/06/2009 15:42:19
while i agree that listing EBANK as a SCAM is wrong, we dont need to add embeezlement into this. RICDIC SCAMMED, EBANK didnt....
edit:
also i dont see what your saying is opposite to mine...
if its closed its a succes... but this can be defined..
imo... the 4 terms cover it nicely.
Quote:
"Lecherito on Market Discussion: Though I have to go down on the record as saying that I'm convinced the majority of the MD community is ******ed" |
Romanov DeBeers
Gallente
Small Gods
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Posted - 2009.06.11 15:41:00 -
[19]
You have not listed Small Gods Bond.
I'm considering launching another bond so if you are agreeable then your comments would be appreciated.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Dark-Rising
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Posted - 2009.06.11 16:06:00 -
[20]
Being at work I can't really but skim on the documentation.
Where's DragonTao (sp?) investment? The funny guy with Haiku quotes for those who recall him.
"Growth will flourish".
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Marcus Baltar
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Posted - 2009.06.11 16:18:00 -
[21]
Bit more time now. Very nice.
Wish I had kept my old spreadsheet up to date, my new one does not have as much historical detail, and has yet to be moved to an online site so I can access it anywhere (especially as I have left the USB drive behind, again  ). It combines most of the data of the two spreadsheets.
As another bank, keep an eye on Ihatalo Cartel Financial Services. They are not fully launched yet, so do not belong on the spreadsheet, but they come across as knowing what they want and are doing it.
Originally by: cosmoray
I have a section on banks, and in the wake of the EBANK SCAM I don't think it can hold the same low level of risk it once did. There is certainly no justification of owning a sweep account (IMO) as it pays no interest.
As both banks have experienced it now and both are still soldiering on, maybe rename the events; The Xabier Scam for DBANK, and The Ricdic Scam for EBANK.
I agree it is a bit silly keeping your money in a 0% account but it appears the bank is relying on some customers doing that or they would not make it the default. 
--
DesuSigs |
Viilaa
Caldari
Outland Research and Development
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Posted - 2009.06.11 16:28:00 -
[22]
I would also like my 2 Bonds from last year to be added to your document (with comments) if you would please. Both of my Bonds (OH Corp) were for 1.5 Billion and were paid on time or early (2nd Bond was paid off several weeks early).
Thanks
Viilaa
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Dzil
Caldari
Waffles Reloaded
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Posted - 2009.06.11 17:26:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Being at work I can't really but skim on the documentation.
Where's DragonTao (sp?) investment? The funny guy with Haiku quotes for those who recall him.
"Growth will flourish".
He has been MIA for a while now...
------------------------------
In EVE, when someone undercuts you, they're a lemming.
When you undercut someone else, it's skill/effort/manipulation.
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Jas Dor
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.06.11 17:42:00 -
[24]
EBANK had a 200B theft and a 250B loan involving a 0.0 entity go bad. One of the major rules of EvE IPOs, at least since ISS, is that anything involving 0.0 has high political risk, and a high chance of failure. EBANK has shown that even models that don't state an involvement in 0.0 can become so involved (to the point of GBC members leaking damaging insider information). I am particularly concerned that EBANK is profiting off five Titan BPOs, a ship that can only be built in 0.0 space. I'd suggest downgrading both banks to a new moderately high risk category until they provide an asset breakdown clarifying their null sec exposure.
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cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2009.06.11 18:18:00 -
[25]
Updated sheet with the requested IPO's/bonds.
Changed EBANK to internal SCAM.
I have added another section for absent managers.
I also don't have figures for size of EMFI, FIRD & FIMD if anyone can help.
I will only add new busineses ONCE they are launched AND have paid a dividend
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Athias
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Posted - 2009.06.11 18:24:00 -
[26]
I seem to remember Quadria talking about there being 40.000 publich shares in FIMD, which should make it a 100B investment
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Ulecese
Ihatalo Research and Development
Ihatalo Cartel
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Posted - 2009.06.11 19:03:00 -
[27]
good work cosmoray,
Would it be possible for you to set this up so you can 'sort' the list by clicking on the categories (i.e. ascending and descending order). Also, if you have access to the information a category detailing how much they have paid out to date and how long they have been running.
Also could you add 'Ihatalo Research and Development' [IRD] to the list.
We have 2 active bonds and also shares - details of which can be found here : http://ihafs-eve.co.uk/irdreports.php
Just click on the sub category links for specific information about each.
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James Tundra
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
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Posted - 2009.06.11 20:22:00 -
[28]
Great chart.
A couple of things real quick:
1. The Tundra Investment Fund is not an IPO. It issues bonds.
2. The Tundra Investment Fund has issued 2 bonds now, following the standard set by other bonds, this should have two entries.
3. All of the ROI's indicate preset interest rates to be paid, except for the one for my investment fund. For some reason it states an ROI of 7.5%. If you follow your standard for the other bonds, it should be 10%. If you include the already sent interest payment of 7.5% plus the original one of 5%, it should read 12.5%, if you include my stated next return, it should say 15%. A far cry from the 7.5% listed. |
Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll
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Posted - 2009.06.11 20:27:00 -
[29]
cosmo charge a million per update imo :P |
cosmoray
Cosmoray Construction
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Posted - 2009.06.11 20:43:00 -
[30]
Added the Ulecese bonds and additional Tundra bond.
The payment info came from the original launch threads.
Note: If people want me to keep adding IPO's/bonds (which I am happy to do), please provide links if you can so I don't have to trawl through all your posts in Eve-search to find the relevant info. |
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