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Tippia Raddick Explorations Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.06.14 21:01:00 - [31] Edited by: Tippia on 14/06/2009 21:09:11 Originally by: shwarzkauph Suicide ganking should not even be allowed. High sec is supposed to be high sec.SAFE. Says who? You? CCP sure doesn't — they've even gone so far as to put "HIGH SEC ISN'T SAFE!!" in huge glowing letters the new player introduction, in the tutorials, and in every guide to high-sec behaviour… High-sec is supposed to be what it says on the can: high security, as opposed to the "low" security (only provided by sentry guns) in lowsec and "zero" securty (none except what you can provide for yourself) in nullsec. "High" is not the same as "complete." If anything, suicide ganking should be made easier… Originally by: Candeo Ingemio I'm upset there is NO way to haul without using one. I would like to have some small slim chance of being allowed to haul without a month of training first. There is: T1 industrials. You just have to stay out of "the big league", which is no different than any other activity in EVE. Want to do L4s (or, heaven forbid, L5s)? Months of training! Want to do T2 manufacturing? Months of training! Want to trade with good margin? Months (ok, not that many) of training! Want to nuke a POS? Months of training! You can start with all of these on a small scale very very quickly — to get to the high end, you will need to make large investments in time and equipment. No exceptions, no excuses. Quote: A battleship with expanders would make a decent hauler actually....4k cargo hold, on a Megathron...thats just about as much as an Industrial with no expanders, only the Megathron has 24000 hp with no tank instead of 2000. That's a decent idea, for anything smaller then ships. Ehm… Just so you know, a standard Badger II with crappy skills can hold 6,000+ m³ and still put up a 30k+ EHP tank. And that's the (supposedly) crappy Caldari mid-range hauler… ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Candeo Ingemio	Posted - 2009.06.14 21:06:00 - [32] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Candeo Ingemio Yes, cargo expanders are necessary Not really, no, unless you're hauling large volumes of gravel (in which case you're not worth suiciding anyway). What you're talking about is using the wrong tool for the job ù kind of like expecting a T1 cruiser to excel at running L4s or providing heavy sniping support in a fleet fight. But yes, it's not a solution to your problem, because your problem is a refusal to progress to new types of ships that better suit what you're trying to accomplish. Quote: There should be some method in the game to allow a player to haul, be it friends, brains, a very expensive ship...something. You mean like Transports, Freighers, the Orcaà those things? You know, those cargo ships that tank like mofos, carry tons of cargo and/or are completely impossible to catch as long the pilot doesn't slip into a comaà Right, those are great. And that cruiser? It can run level 2s pretty damn well, huh? That is my complaint. I don't WANT to have to wait a month and pay 100 million ISK for the battleships of hauling to run level 1s. Why can't my ****ty frigate of the Industrial world do ANYTHING? Why is using no cargo expanders the correct course of action? Then a true battleship would be a more effective hauler then the hauler. That doesnt seem strange to you, that the combat ship is more effective at industrial work then the industrial ship?
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.06.14 21:10:00 - [33] Originally by: Candeo Ingemio Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Candeo Ingemio Yes, cargo expanders are necessary Not really, no, unless you're hauling large volumes of gravel (in which case you're not worth suiciding anyway). What you're talking about is using the wrong tool for the job ù kind of like expecting a T1 cruiser to excel at running L4s or providing heavy sniping support in a fleet fight. But yes, it's not a solution to your problem, because your problem is a refusal to progress to new types of ships that better suit what you're trying to accomplish. Quote: There should be some method in the game to allow a player to haul, be it friends, brains, a very expensive ship...something. You mean like Transports, Freighers, the Orcaà those things? You know, those cargo ships that tank like mofos, carry tons of cargo and/or are completely impossible to catch as long the pilot doesn't slip into a comaà Right, those are great. And that cruiser? It can run level 2s pretty damn well, huh? That is my complaint. I don't WANT to have to wait a month and pay 100 million ISK for the battleships of hauling to run level 1s. Why can't my ****ty frigate of the Industrial world do ANYTHING? Why is using no cargo expanders the correct course of action? Then a true battleship would be a more effective hauler then the hauler. That doesnt seem strange to you, that the combat ship is more effective at industrial work then the industrial ship? I tried to understand this post but I couldn't make out a coherent sentence even randomly plucking words out of it... ___________________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
floggar	Posted - 2009.06.14 21:11:00 - [34] Originally by: Candeo Ingemio Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Candeo Ingemio Yes, cargo expanders are necessary Not really, no, unless you're hauling large volumes of gravel (in which case you're not worth suiciding anyway). What you're talking about is using the wrong tool for the job ù kind of like expecting a T1 cruiser to excel at running L4s or providing heavy sniping support in a fleet fight. But yes, it's not a solution to your problem, because your problem is a refusal to progress to new types of ships that better suit what you're trying to accomplish. Quote: There should be some method in the game to allow a player to haul, be it friends, brains, a very expensive ship...something. You mean like Transports, Freighers, the Orcaà those things? You know, those cargo ships that tank like mofos, carry tons of cargo and/or are completely impossible to catch as long the pilot doesn't slip into a comaà Right, those are great. And that cruiser? It can run level 2s pretty damn well, huh? That is my complaint. I don't WANT to have to wait a month and pay 100 million ISK for the battleships of hauling to run level 1s. Why can't my ****ty frigate of the Industrial world do ANYTHING? Why is using no cargo expanders the correct course of action? Then a true battleship would be a more effective hauler then the hauler. That doesnt seem strange to you, that the combat ship is more effective at industrial work then the industrial ship? Its not the correct course of action. It;s just that these PKers have no other course of action to suggest. Very few contructive responses here. Yes EVE is the game for me, some have suggested otherwise. The game does not need to be as harsh and unforgiving as it is, thats my opinion. It is as valid as anyone elses.
floggar	Posted - 2009.06.14 21:13:00 - [35] Edited by: floggar on 14/06/2009 21:15:37 Originally by: Esiel While the subject is correct, your hypothesis is incorrect. The major reason bad play is so rampant is because there is no way to truly deal with "bad" playing in a lot of cases. The problem is there is no true way to punish someone effectively for the crimes they commit. And this comes mostly in the form of Alts. Alts make it too easy to steal/spy/ect. There is no connection to the average player between one character you have and another. If you have a bounty placed on you, just have your alt kill you and tada you just defeated the whole purpose. ************************ So the only true way to stop "bad" behavior would be for all alts to be listed to each other. (This includes different accounts - same ip = all are listed together) This would instantly end being a spy and killing the enemy too. If you wanted to be a spy you would have to be a real spy none of your characters could be associated with the enemy or you would be found out. Corp theft would be suddenly dangerous as not only would the alt that stole be hunted but so would your mission alt and industrial alt. (now this would balance out some of the bad behavior as suddenly getting caught would mean more than just deleting or selling an alt) -- once this major problem is fixed then you could go into the area of, if a citizen steals from a Caldari citizen (really good standing) then the caldari government would seize the criminals assets and money they have in their space and on their market. Criminals would have to leave empire space to conduct business, perhaps they could fix their criminal past by making restitution or stay criminals out with the guristas or whoever the choose to be with. __________________________________________________ Now all that being said, don't count on it happening because so far as I can tell CCP has no inclination to change things in this manner. They like their experiment they are conducting on what people will do if they have no consequences. all good suggestions...will never happen. People dont like consequences for bad behavior. If it werent for society and our laws I suspect most would rob and pillage if they could. That is, until they run across someone stronger who robs and pillages them.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.06.14 21:13:00 - [36] Originally by: Candeo Ingemio It can run level 2s pretty damn well, huh? That is my complaint. I don't WANT to have to wait a month and pay 100 million ISK for the battleships of hauling to run level 1s. Why can't my **ty frigate of the Industrial world do ANYTHING? See above. They can do the job just fine — you're just expecting them to do the hauling-equivalent of L4s, when you're flying a ship that's designed for the L2 equivalent. Don't want to wait? Tough! Welcome to EVE, where you start at the bottom and work your way up. (And I'm just waiting for the "SP is all that matters"-nutters to jump on this… ) Quote:** Why is using no cargo expanders the correct course of action? See edited answer above. Expanders work when the ship itself can provide some tanking (or when you're haulling something that is larger than it is expensive, eg. ores and minerals). ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2009.06.14 21:14:00 - [37] It isn't that EvE rewards bad behaviour, it is that EvE doesn't reward good behaviour. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. The AB/OD Fix
Morist Intheli	Posted - 2009.06.14 21:15:00 - [38] Fine, I'll leave. See, that the post there...in the one I quoted, the one guy used a metaphor to compare mission running to hauling. I then extended that metaphor to lend support to my argument by showing how a cruiser, that is not good at running level 4s, is good at running level 2s, a lesser task. I'd love to see your fit for the 30k badger. Iteron 3 tops out at about 9500 ehp.
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2009.06.14 21:20:00 - [39] I'll try to explain some things with short snippy answers. 1. Nobody has any interest in suicide ganking your industrial that is carrying a Cruiser, or even battlecruiser if you wish. People gank idiots who carry dozens of faction/officer gear, salvage and minerals. Stuff that can be broken into multiple trips or even transported with a more agile ship. 2. Nobody can gank you if they cannot lock you before you warp. Inertia stabs are very nice for speed fits. Fitting the right settup can be essential to an industrial ships survival. 3. Industrial ships are NOT just glorified lowslots. They have other settups capable than a simple "MWD/Expanders" no-brainer. Shield Extenders, Armor plates, Inertia stabs, Nanofibers, damage control II's... The list goes on. Your little industrial does not NEED to be constantly fitted to carry 20km¦ with 10k EHP when you can easily fit it to hold no more than 7km¦ but suddenly it has 15-20k EHP, something that would suddenly require 5 or 6 BS to gank. You just eliminated your chances of being ganked by a one man band completely. 4. If you are not succeeding, you are doing it wrong. It is not that the game is built wrong, but you have built your mindset wrong. Sorry.
ArmyOfMe The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2009.06.14 21:27:00 - [40] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: floggar stuff you say it encourages bad behaviour, I say it encourages Darwinism. and that's why eve is freaking great

Tippia Raddick Explorations Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.06.14 21:37:00 - [41] Originally by: Morist Intheli I'd love to see your fit for the 30k badger. Iteron 3 tops out at about 9500 ehp. Badger II: Lows: 1x DC II, EANM II, 200mm plate. Mids: 3x Invuln II, 3x MSE II Highs: Who cares? A cloak, for good measure. Already there, you have 24,640 EHP. Then it's just a matter of how nuts you want to go with the rigging… (you get 33.5k with 3x CDFEs ) For a bit more nippyness, swap the plate and EANM for 2x Istabs (not nano — lowers your tank). Holds 6,563m¦ at Indy V.
Kessiaan Minmatar MicroFunks	Posted - 2009.06.14 21:47:00 - [42] Edited by: Kessiaan on 14/06/2009 21:48:27 In EvE you manage risk. If you try to eliminate it, you get topics like this one. And EvE encourages you to be the way you really want to be.
Jack Amarr Inner Vort3x	Posted - 2009.06.14 22:58:00 - [43] eve would be SO dull if you couldn't do any of the stuff you suggested banning like some **ty old facist who doesn;t like people disrepsecting him because he's to shriveled to stand up for himself and needs someone to introduce rules so he can have his way. Eve is full of smart arse industrialist and i'm glad there are people who spend there hard earned isk and time suicide ganking hulks and stealing corps for all they have. if you don't like the fact that everyone isn't nice to you and doesn;t respect the fact youve made 4 million isk today then go and play freelancer. Without people happy to explode for the sake of seeing ** explode then eve would just be full of dull people making money and not doing anything with it and not having an fun or sence of anger loss anxiety relief or anything else, just passive, grey indifference as your wallets number slowly trickles upwards and you realise your wasting you life. not that i mind or whatever... --------------------------------------------------- "the power of the vote lies not with the people who cast the vote, but with the people who count them" - Joseph Stalin
zenia starwalker Minmatar Merrill's Marauders Crimson Dragons	Posted - 2009.06.14 23:01:00 - [44] Originally by: Jack Amarr eve would be SO dull if you couldn't do any of the stuff you suggested banning like some **ty old facist who doesn;t like people disrepsecting him because he's to shriveled to stand up for himself and needs someone to introduce rules so he can have his way. Eve is full of smart arse industrialist and i'm glad there are people who spend there hard earned isk and time suicide ganking hulks and stealing corps for all they have. if you don't like the fact that everyone isn't nice to you and doesn;t respect the fact youve made 4 million isk today then go and play freelancer. Without people happy to explode for the sake of seeing ** explode then eve would just be full of dull people making money and not doing anything with it and not having an fun or sence of anger loss anxiety relief or anything else, just passive, grey indifference as your wallets number slowly trickles upwards and you realise your wasting you life. not that i mind or whatever... uh....who said anything about curtailing PVP? ....and suicide ganking is not true PVP.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.06.14 23:07:00 - [45] Originally by: zenia starwalker ....and suicide ganking is not true PVP. Yes it is. You don't like it (and honestly I don't like it either), but it is absolutely player versus player. And, since there are ways to avoid it, it's not a one-sided fight. Choosing your engagements is the first step in pvp combat. If a suicide ganker gets you, he chose the engagement and you failed. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.06.14 23:14:00 - [46] Originally by: zenia starwalker ....and suicide ganking is not true PVP. It doesn't involve people interacting with other people? Avoiding suicide ganking is so rediculously easy (don't fly afk), I don't get how people actually get hurt. Maybe I'm just lucky, since every attempt (usually while I accept the risk and fly semi-afk) that has been made on me has resulted in the gankers being WTFPWNBBQED rather quickly with minimal damage done (this is also why I add salvagers to all hauler fits). <Insert sig here>
Jack Amarr Inner Vort3x	Posted - 2009.06.14 23:16:00 - [47] i didn;t say people were trying to stop pvp. i said quite clearly i'm glad there are suicide gankers and corp thief. and yeah suicide ganking is pvp and its something ccp want. ive been suicide ganked and it was bloody annoying but all you can do is laugh. if you can't, then your very sad, and its probably best you stopped playing. --------------------------------------------------- "the power of the vote lies not with the people who cast the vote, but with the people who count them" - Joseph Stalin
Droog 1 Black Rise Inbreds	Posted - 2009.06.14 23:44:00 - [48] Eve: A game where you spend most of your time looking for new and inventive ways to murder and rip someone off while constantly trying to avoid being murdered and ripped off yourself.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.06.14 23:51:00 - [49] If you take away the "bad behavior" elements of EVE game play and completely carebearize it then you will have a very, very terrible wow in space game and it will die. EVE-Online is a sandbox, you-can-do-pretty-much-anything-you-want type of game. It is working as designed. If you take away the "bad behavior" then you also take away all of the "good behavior" and all you get is a boring, empty, emotionless grind game ala any of the other MMORPG games. The OP's misuse of the term "griefer" makes him a complete dolt. EVE if anything caters too much to anti-social carebear players who do not want to interact with other players at all. The game is about competition, interaction and confrontation. If you do not like it then you can GTFO.
Marteene	Posted - 2009.06.14 23:55:00 - [50] To Floggar: EVE is like the wild west in the 19th century Earth Time in America. You simply have to be careful. Learn as much as you can to survive and keeping your assets in check. This game is more of survival other than freedom. Everyone is different in the game and it is what makes EVE special.

floggar	Posted - 2009.06.15 00:34:00 - [51] Originally by: Vaal Erit I The OP's misuse of the term "griefer" makes him a complete dolt. Griefers People who try to make your life miserable on a MMO. Good greifers will still make your life miserable but you can still laugh at it. Bad greifers would be people who enjoy making your life suck and only the person doing the griefing finds the act funny. SOURCE Whose the dolt now?
Mikayla Grey Gallente	Posted - 2009.06.15 00:36:00 - [52] Originally by: floggar The game does not need to be as harsh and unforgiving as it is, thats my opinion. It is as valid as anyone elses. If anything it needs to get more harsh and unforgiving. High sec is already close to perfect safety (if you enable brain).
Mikayla Grey Gallente	Posted - 2009.06.15 00:37:00 - [53] Originally by: floggar Originally by: Vaal Erit I The OP's misuse of the term "griefer" makes him a complete dolt. Griefers People who try to make your life miserable on a MMO. Good greifers will still make your life miserable but you can still laugh at it. Bad greifers would be people who enjoy making your life suck and only the person doing the griefing finds the act funny. SOURCE Whose the dolt now? You are. Its like saying football players grief the other team if they dont let them score.
floggar	Posted - 2009.06.15 00:44:00 - [54] Originally by: Marteene To Floggar: EVE is like the wild west in the 19th century Earth Time in America. You simply have to be careful. Learn as much as you can to survive and keeping your assets in check. This game is more of survival other than freedom. Everyone is different in the game and it is what makes EVE special. I understand EVE is like the wild wild west...but it is still a game. and behavior in game needs to have consequences. Currently there are no consequences for Corp thieves, Alliances spies (they will just sell the alt once done). actions need consequnces. Not really any consequence for can flipping, although I did get a good fight out of it once, when I was bored enough to mine in high sec. Most players mining arent prepared to fight. They are in their exhumers or barges with someone else in a indy. SOmeone comes along and flips your can...there goes 20 minutes of your life down the drain. Can flipping is against the LAW in high sec. There should be consequences, like concord of something.
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2009.06.15 01:09:00 - [55] There is pvp here but theres also a lot of pk, or gank. As for griefing, it's all about intent. If I scan down your mission site and suicide your 3 bil faction fit BS it's because I want the kill but mostly it's for the potential loot. I just ganked you. If someone else does the same thing and kills your pimped missioner with the hopes of generating tears, ruining your day and causing emotional suffering, and he derives enhjoyment form it, then it's griefing. He griefed you. That's the textbook defination of a Sadist, btw. The mechanics and what little moderation there is in game can't distinguish between those 2 types of people usually. So yeah, any group or activity with little or no moderation will degenerate to the lowest common denominator, even EVE, maybe even especially EVE.
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.06.15 01:10:00 - [56] Edited by: Khemul Zula on 15/06/2009 01:12:19 Originally by: floggar ...actions need consequnces. Not really any consequence for can flipping, although I did get a good fight out of it once, when I was bored enough to mine in high sec. Most players mining arent prepared to fight. They are in their exhumers or barges with someone else in a indy. SOmeone comes along and flips your can...there goes 20 minutes of your life down the drain. Can flipping is against the LAW in high sec. There should be consequences, like concord of something. Since when is can flipping against the law in high sec? I see no CONCORD response, no global criminal flag, no drop in security status. The consequence of can flipping is that the person you stole from gets to try to take it back through force. Plus you are looking at things backwards (do some research). Can flipping is a consequence for another action, not an action that needs more consequences. Jetcan mining was never meant to be consequence free (or even standard practice) <Insert sig here>
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp.	Posted - 2009.06.15 05:55:00 - [57] The only part of the OP I agree with is corp theft. It sucks to be robbed, it sucks even more knowing there's little if anything that can be done to punish the thief ingame. It would be nice if there were tools and ways to do something to a thief after the fact, but there's not really anything very effective. I'm not saying there should be something easy, but if there were tools to punish them it would at least make the victims feel a little better. Unfortunately, that won't happen until CCP bothers to fix the bounty system, and who knows when that will be. I don't know what the answer is, but the only options I can think of are posting on the boards and dec;ing any corp the thief joins, which isn't likely to happen until it's forgotten, if the thief doesn't get recycled/retired right away.
Eve Shenanigans	Posted - 2009.06.15 06:07:00 - [58] stop feeding this guy. floggar: go play wow, your not wanted here, except as easy prey, which you seem uncomfortable with.
Galan Amarias Amarr The Drekla Consortium	Posted - 2009.06.15 06:15:00 - [59] I have to admit I'm past the point at night where I can read all the replies. Floggar, you have failed. Unless you are moving T2 the T1 ships are easy as dirt to skill into, fly them with plates fit. (Why are you hauling ships? the profit margin has to be crap) 2nd, I move t2 cruisers in my hauler alt (less than 1 mil sp) all the time into and out of trade hubs and low sec. You are doing it wrong. Since you can't be asked to use your lows properly, try flying while actively at the keyboard. The gankers need to scan you to know you have something good in cargo. If you have safespots set up you can get to them and gone before they see if you are worth it. And for hell sakes stay out of Jita! At least during peak play times. I am more paranoid in Jita than I am in 0.0 when I know there is a bubble camp. I always get out with my stuff. Finally, you need a serious look at what you think the devs intended. None of your examples of Greifing are actually EULA violations. And w/o violating the EULA it's not greifing. He who fights fair loses fair. EVE is a lot like RL in that respect. For that matter PVP is any time any player goes versus another player. These subclassificafions of yours are utter nonsense. -Galan
Jagga Spikes Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.06.15 06:32:00 - [60] Edited by: Jagga Spikes on 15/06/2009 06:33:33 if EVE ever becomes fair, we will gank it, and it will all be over.



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