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Droog 1 Black Rise Inbreds	Posted - 2009.06.16 11:52:00 - [121] Originally by: Ghoest I think the OP has a point. People with a bad nature can express themselves in EVE. After doing this a lot they are probably worse IRL. People with a bad nature can express theselves in other games too y'know. What about shooting Police Officers in games? Or firing a flaming Arrow at Chickens and watching them run around on fire for lulz? If someone nukes Megaton does that mean that it probably makes them worse irl?
Gealbhan Caldari House CHOAM Terrebellum	Posted - 2009.06.16 12:19:00 - [122] Originally by: Droog 1 Originally by: Ghoest I think the OP has a point. People with a bad nature can express themselves in EVE. After doing this a lot they are probably worse IRL. People with a bad nature can express theselves in other games too y'know. What about shooting Police Officers in games? Or firing a flaming Arrow at Chickens and watching them run around on fire for lulz? If someone nukes Megaton does that mean that it probably makes them worse irl? Not everyone does some of the above game things in RL, but a few do. Originally by: Reven Cordelle What do I do? Well half the time, I'm an Orca Pilot - So absolutely sweet F/A except hit F1 and F2 - sit back and feel my ass grow.
Kawea	Posted - 2009.06.16 12:48:00 - [123] I share the OP's sentiment fully, EVE is full of nasty people doing nasty things and I don't like a lot of that. Yet we, the Carebears, should not forget what the original idea of EVE was and in general still is. EVE was originally designed as a playground for people who like to do asocial things for fun. It's supposed to be a playground where there is no one around to enforce order, fair play and other such things. In general, judging by the occasional posts from the dev's, the developers still subscribe to this original idea. After all, everyone still remembers (when it suits them) that dev blog stating how everything in EVE is PvP (could use the link for that one, if someone could be troubled with it). In time EVE did develop into a bit 'nicer' direction of course, having more players can't be bad for business and all the nice things EVE offers do attract more than just the intended audience. Yet this is still primarily the game for those who like to do 'bad' things and if you're not one of them, you'll just have to live with it. You're welcome to play here, you can also point out how things could be made better, but the basic nature of EVE won't change for a long time still, if it ever will.
Drakarin	Posted - 2009.06.16 12:52:00 - [124] EvE does not encourage nor discourage "bad" behavior. It's a harsh and realistic world in the sense that actions have consequences. Your welfare depends on your ability to analyze a situation and correctly determine the best course of action. As in, you have to think to be good and thrive. I wouldn't have it any other way.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.06.16 13:02:00 - [125] Originally by: Ghoest I think the OP has a point. People with a bad nature can express themselves in EVE. After doing this a lot they are probably worse IRL. Got any evidence to back this up? No... I thought not.
Galan Amarias Amarr The Drekla Consortium	Posted - 2009.06.16 13:04:00 - [126] Originally by: Kawea I share the OP's sentiment fully, EVE is full of nasty people doing nasty things and I don't like a lot of that. Yet we, the Carebears, should not forget what the original idea of EVE was and in general still is....You're welcome to play here, you can also point out how things could be made better, but the basic nature of EVE won't change for a long time still, if it ever will. Almost right. EVE encourages you to take care of yourself. The folks who are being bad are doing so on their own without help from the NPC under a system of game mechanics that allow for a wide range of player action. Nothing is stopping you carebears from doing "good" any time you please. Taking a little care with your stuff would eliminate all kinds of general asshatterie. EVE is about player competition. That's why the devs keep saying everything is PVP. You can not take any action in EVE without affecting other players. Unless you do nothing but mission, never mine, never buy or sell from the market, fly only what you have created from the reprocessing of your mission loot and generally hide at all times another player is in the same system as you. -Galan
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.06.16 13:10:00 - [127] Originally by: Galan Amarias Originally by: Kawea I share the OP's sentiment fully, EVE is full of nasty people doing nasty things and I don't like a lot of that. Yet we, the Carebears, should not forget what the original idea of EVE was and in general still is....You're welcome to play here, you can also point out how things could be made better, but the basic nature of EVE won't change for a long time still, if it ever will. Almost right. EVE encourages you to take care of yourself. The folks who are being bad are doing so on their own without help from the NPC under a system of game mechanics that allow for a wide range of player action. Nothing is stopping you carebears from doing "good" any time you please. Taking a little care with your stuff would eliminate all kinds of general asshatterie. EVE is about player competition. That's why the devs keep saying everything is PVP. You can not take any action in EVE without affecting other players. Unless you do nothing but mission, never mine, never buy or sell from the market, fly only what you have created from the reprocessing of your mission loot and generally hide at all times another player is in the same system as you. -Galan Suggesting that carebears look after their own safety is something that has been tried in the past... apparently, being required to put some effort in to looking after oneself is an unreasonable burden
Tippia Raddick Explorations Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.06.16 13:17:00 - [128] Originally by: Galan Amarias Almost right. EVE encourages you to take care of yourself. ^^ This, and funnily enough, one of the most effective ways of taking care of yourself is being nice to people around you. If you are, they are more likely to be nice in return; to join your fleets; to be in your corp; to cover your back… If you're not nice, there is nothing in place to keep them from blowing you up until all you're left with in this world is a newbship and one unit of trit… The only thing that could encourage this kind of "bad" response is you — the player, who pissed that other guy off to such a degree to begin with.
Br41n Pinky and the Brain corp	Posted - 2009.06.16 13:21:00 - [129] FFFUUUUUUUU AAAAHHHHHH RAAAAGGGEEE RAAAGGGEEEEEEE! Now its time to take over the world again!!
Southern Suzy Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.06.16 13:26:00 - [130] For all the people bravely trying to argue with the OP: This is true
Kawea	Posted - 2009.06.16 13:29:00 - [131] Originally by: Malcanis Suggesting that carebears look after their own safety is something that has been tried in the past... apparently, being required to put some effort in to looking after oneself is an unreasonable burden I do my Carebear thing mostly unmolested, thank you for your concern. I did have my share of unfavorable encounters of course, but I imagine I have learned from them. It's not that hard really, but it does require you to understand what the nature of the game is.
Navtiqes Space Sheriff	Posted - 2009.06.16 13:31:00 - [132] Edited by: Navtiqes on 16/06/2009 13:32:20 Following your logic: If I enjoy fueling POSes and transfering shields to my friends, does that mean I like hanging out at gas stations and wiping people's windows? Does it encourage window wiping? What does the research say? Or the hobby psychologists? Am I condemned to a life of willfully paying for my friends gas with fingers blistering from wax and polish?
Ervol Libra Amarr Pinky and the Brain corp	Posted - 2009.06.16 13:36:00 - [133] Originally by: Navtiqes Edited by: Navtiqes on 16/06/2009 13:32:20 Following your logic: If I enjoy fueling POSes and transfering shields to my friends, does that mean I like hanging out at gas stations and wiping people's windows? Does it encourage window wiping? What does the research say? Or the hobby psychologists? Am I condemned to a life of willfully paying for my friends gas with fingers blistering from wax and polish? YES
Rawr Cristina Caldari Naqam Exalted.	Posted - 2009.06.16 14:19:00 - [134] Originally by: floggar I get to planet XXX and we engage, this this persons buddies jump in and I get swarmed. This is normal PVP in EVE? There are no skils involved, except the skills of manipulation. THis is bad behavior. losing sucks, but someone has to do it. Besides, IMO much more skill in laying a convincing trap (everyone suspects it these days) than 2 ships pressing F1-F8 on each other until one explodes.
Zitus	Posted - 2009.06.16 14:39:00 - [135] Originally by: shwarzkauph Suicide ganking should not even be allowed. High sec is supposed to be high sec.SAFE. So you say, if a gun wielding maniac stepped out next to a Police station and started killing every one in sight, you wouldn't run away, cause you're safe? Cause seriously, the Cops are RIGHT THERE, and this dude has succeeded in killing innocent people. Sure, the Cops are going to either tackle this dude and haul him away for mass murder or might just light him up right there. But you aren't safe. No matter what happens in the Real World, you're never safe. You may be safer in one situation than another, but there is always a way some one can cause harm to one another.
Governor LePetomane Rock Ridge Brokerage Solutions	Posted - 2009.06.16 14:56:00 - [136] Originally by: Rawr Cristina Originally by: floggar I get to planet XXX and we engage, this this persons buddies jump in and I get swarmed. This is normal PVP in EVE? There are no skils involved, except the skills of manipulation. THis is bad behavior. losing sucks, but someone has to do it. Besides, IMO much more skill in laying a convincing trap (everyone suspects it these days) than 2 ships pressing F1-F8 on each other until one explodes. "All warfare is based on deception." But seriously, what's the thought process that leads to wanting to create "fairness" for some guy who just jumped you on a stargate and tried to mug you while you were minding your own business? How do you conclude that this random yahoo deserves a sporting shot at you given that he's obviously bent on mayhem? Is it hubris? Is it a hyperthyroid superego? Low self- esteem? Is it the delusion that people will like you if you let them win? How does this happen? And of course inevitably the guy turned out to be packing an ace up his sleeve -- because after all winning is good and losing is bad -- and there's Our Hero fleeing for his life in his pod with his ass hanging out the back and somehow he manages to get indignant about it: "You're a BAD PERSON! " News flash for the OP: that guy wasn't a bad person. You're a dumb person, all the more so because instead of recognizing your mistake you're up on your high horse trying to put forth this elaborate moral rationalization about how it's not that you ****ed up, but rather the universe is somehow flawed and the Forces Of Evil are conspiring against you.
floggar	Posted - 2009.06.16 15:33:00 - [137] Originally by: Governor LePetomane Originally by: Rawr Cristina Originally by: floggar "All warfare is based on deception." But seriously, what's the thought process that leads to wanting to create "fairness" for some guy who just jumped you on a stargate and tried to mug you while you were minding your own business? How do you conclude that this random yahoo deserves a sporting shot at you given that he's obviously bent on mayhem? Is it hubris? Is it a hyperthyroid superego? Low self- esteem? Is it the delusion that people will like you if you let them win? How does this happen? And of course inevitably the guy turned out to be packing an ace up his sleeve -- because after all winning is good and losing is bad -- and there's Our Hero fleeing for his life in his pod with his ass hanging out the back and somehow he manages to get indignant about it: "You're a BAD PERSON! " News flash for the OP: that guy wasn't a bad person. You're a dumb person, all the more so because instead of recognizing your mistake you're up on your high horse trying to put forth this elaborate moral rationalization about how it's not that you **ed up, but rather the universe is somehow flawed and the Forces Of Evil are conspiring against you. Oh I recognize my mistake. It was a dumb move on my part. That does not mean it is not bad behavior. This person obviosly does it often, or they are thier fellow gankers would not have a -9 status. It is bad behavior, imo. And the point of my creating this thread was not that I thought this should be against the rules or was cheating. The point of this thread is that in my opinion EVE encourages bad beahavior. EVE does does encourage clean fights. Eve does not encouragees playing with morale character. Im not whining about losing my ship. I do understand that it os part of the game. I am merely commenting on the tactics people choose to use. When did I say or imply that the uniniverse was conspiring against me? You read what you want to read. I understand the game. The only point I am trying to make was that EVE ENCOURAGES BAD BEHAVIOR. I'm not saying that these things should be banned. In a few cases things step over the line. Things such as Corp theft, Spies- where someone pretends to be your friend for weeks or months in some instances to gain access to an out of game mechanic such as team speak. Other things such as can flipping which serve no real purpose but for harassment and enjoyment of one part at the expense of another , or suicide ganking where there is no real consquence for the offending party are horrible game mechanics, but again allowed by the game. But as I have said more than once, JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN DO SOMETHING DOES NOT MEAN YOU SHOULD. All of you that are arguing against me and for these practices think I am whining about changing these or banning them or something have totally missed the point. Just come out and admit that yes these things are BAD BEHAVIOR. Not good bevavior. EVE DOES ENCOURAGE BAD BEVAVIOR, that fact cannot be disputed. People are free to be the biggest s they can be in game. But I wonder why, why do they need to be s? because it is fun **ing people off? It is fun stealing things others have worked for? It is fun to be spies and manipulate people into friendship to give advantage (cheating) to one side over another? The answer most enevitably is yes, for some. Some people like to make other people feel bad. That is a sad portion of a persons character, if that is part of who they are. Lets all just admit that yes EVE does ENCOURAGE bad behavior? Dont try to argue against that fact because it is indisputable, then we can move on.
SpaceSquirrels Caldari	Posted - 2009.06.16 15:54:00 - [138] Another moral post about eve's anarchy.... Wonder how this one turned out? Lots of original go back to wow reply's I assume.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.06.16 16:13:00 - [139] Edited by: Tippia on 16/06/2009 16:15:20 Originally by: floggar Lets all just admit that yes EVE does ENCOURAGE bad behavior? No. Why should we when you're obviously wrong and base your assertion on ignorant and flawed premises? Back your statement up with something to prove your point and maybe you'll be able to convince someone (who also don't understand EVE). Saying "it's like this because I say so!" doesn't prove anything. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Governor LePetomane Rock Ridge Brokerage Solutions	Posted - 2009.06.16 16:17:00 - [140] Originally by: floggar It is bad behavior, imo. Sorry, but your opinion is wrong. And again, you're just trying to justify your own bone- headedness via accusations of moral turpitude.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.06.16 16:40:00 - [141] Edited by: Malcanis on 16/06/2009 16:41:22 tl;dr: OP just doesn't get freedom. You know all those nasty things you've been talking about - can flipping, noob ganking, mission-item theft, scamming, corp theft, spying, suicide ganking, piracy... ...well I don't do any of those things (I tried piracy a little, it's OK I guess, but not really my thing.) But. I dearly love that we are free to do those things. I want my choice not to do those things to mean something. If I couldn't do them because the devs simply forbade them by fiat, my choice would be meaningless, non-present. A whole dimension of the game removed, leaving what's left as flat, dull and lifeless. You're (I guess) a good person, and naturally, you want other people to be good according to your conception of goodness. That's pretty normal and reasonable. Where you fall down is in wanting them to be forced to be good. That's hubris at best, or tyranny at worst. It's never worked in all of human history. And it wouldn't even make for a better game. Consider the average "villain" in a game. A scripted NPC tells you that Doomlord Sunkiller has killed your parent/raised demons/threatened to DESTROY THE WORLD. You go and kill his increasingly strong minions, and eventually defeat him. Meh. Whatever. Your emotional involvement is about as intense as completing a crossword puzzle. Compare your emotional involvement with the villains of EvE. Judging by your own posts in this thread, it is just a teeny weeny bit more intense, no? In 99.9% of so-called "RPGs", being evil doesn't mean much more than getting to wear cool black armour, and maybe having access to the more pwnz0r DPS spells. In EvE, the bad guys look exactly like everyone else, and boy are they bad! They attack the innocent, wantonly destroy, betray great leaders, they lie, they steal, they'd probably give your slaver-hound puppy chocolate if only they could. Damb, but you hate those scum! Go get 'em tiger.
floggar	Posted - 2009.06.16 17:18:00 - [142] Edited by: floggar on 16/06/2009 17:18:13 Originally by: SpaceSquirrels Another moral post about eve's anarchy.... Wonder how this one turned out? Lots of original go back to wow reply's I assume. Yep...countless
floggar	Posted - 2009.06.16 17:44:00 - [143] Edited by: floggar on 16/06/2009 17:46:49 Edited by: floggar on 16/06/2009 17:46:10 Edited by: floggar on 16/06/2009 17:46:00 Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 16/06/2009 16:15:20 Originally by: floggar Lets all just admit that yes EVE does ENCOURAGE bad behavior? No. Why should we when you're obviously wrong and base your assertion on ignorant and flawed premises? Back your statement up with something to prove your point and maybe you'll be able to convince someone (who also don't understand EVE). Saying "it's like this because I say so!" doesn't prove anything. It encourages bad behavior by: simply allowing it and with no consquences in many case. -A corp thief or spy in amny cases will steal stuff, transfer the goods and sell the character. Explain to me where the consequnces are in that? and why is that not considered bad behavior to you? Do you consider it good behavior? Yeah I know you guys want your freedom to lie cheat and steal blah blah blah... Guess you do not really consider that bad behavior. Im glad the EVE player base does not run countries and societies. We would all be ****ed. many of the vocal player base actually encourages bad behavior. lets consider the recent Ebank scam. This dousche bag stoll ISK for real life gain. I didnt see too many people denouncing him as a loser. I saw many praise his actions. Even if he did not do it for RMT and therefore did not get banned, if he just stole it and transfered it to another character. Do you think that he would use that characters, ricdic, ever again? Most likey not. He would have the ability to hide behind another character anonomously and go on with his eve life with. Imagine the kind of characters you could buy with that much isk and still have hundreds of billions left over. That person will have suffered ZERO consequnce for his actions, but he has the freedom to do just that. But that is considered good behavior by many, huh? You want the freedom to be able to do that? The thieves from GHSC seem to be well repected in the community, even though they are liars and thieves. Why? Because they had the freedom and low character to steal? Is EVE just a game for wanton scamming and lying and cheating and harrassment? Yeah I know the response to that will be yes. But do you think all players enjoy that behavior? Yes forums dwellers are the most vocal members of the EVE community. But Most members of the playerbase do not even browse for forums. I believe many people just put up with all this stuff because they like to play SCI FI themed games and EVE is the only worthy SCI fi themed MMO on the marlet presently that is of any quality. But in retrospect I guess I was wrong and I admit it. EVE does not encourage bad behavior, at least by the player baseses standards. I apologize. I'm out
Zartanic	Posted - 2009.06.16 17:58:00 - [144] You really, really do not get the point of EVE do you?
Tippia Raddick Explorations Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.06.16 18:03:00 - [145] Originally by: floggar It encourages bad behavior by: simply allowing it and with no consquences in many case. No, quote the opposite. Se above for (many) explanations. Quote: Guess you do not really consider that bad behavior. Im glad the EVE player base does not run countries and societies. We would all be **ed. Guess what? Real life allows that as well, in many cases with no consequences, and do you know what happens? Same as in EVE: it makes people behave nicely towards each other. Quote:** But that is considered good behavior by many, huh? It isn't — you're reading the responses wrong. It's considered an option, and a testament to the freedom of the game that such things can happen. People consider it "cool" behaviour in the same sense as the act of murdering roughly two dozen police officers in the marquee robbery in Heat is considered a cool scene and makes it a spectacular movie. Likewise, the capacity to hold bad behaviour is what makes EVE a spectacular game, but like Heat, it is actually an anomaly to what goes on most of the time… It also shows why you're wrong: if your premise is right, everyone would be trying to do this (because the game encourages them to). They aren't, because it doesn't. Quote: Is EVE just a game for wanton scamming and lying and cheating and harrassment? Yeah I know the response to that will be yes. But do you think all players enjoy that behavior? No, but that's because there are players who don't understand what EVE is about. It's not a flaw in the game but a matter of faulty expectations. It's the core of the "go back to WoW" line of bashing. To be blunt: whether they like or not is also entirely irrelevant — the game is what it is and they are free not to play it if it doesn't suit them. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Governor LePetomane Rock Ridge Brokerage Solutions	Posted - 2009.06.16 18:04:00 - [146] Originally by: floggar It encourages bad behavior by: simply allowing it and with no consquences in many case. No. Please consult a dictionary concerning the words "allow" and "encourage."
Ghoest	Posted - 2009.06.16 18:07:00 - [147] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Ghoest I think the OP has a point. People with a bad nature can express themselves in EVE. After doing this a lot they are probably worse IRL. Got any evidence to back this up? No... I thought not. Learn to read noob. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.06.16 18:15:00 - [148] Originally by: Ghoest Originally by: Malcanis Got any evidence to back this up? No... I thought not. Learn to read noob. So, that's a "no," then? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Governor LePetomane Rock Ridge Brokerage Solutions	Posted - 2009.06.16 18:20:00 - [149] Originally by: floggar The thieves from GHSC seem to be well repected in the community, even though they are liars and thieves. Why? Because they had the freedom and low character to steal? Your beef with GHSC is frankly idiotic and a little bit offensive to boot. This is after all a role playing game, the point of which is to act out a fictional and/ or fantastic narrative. Impugning somebody's real life character for something they did in that context without breaking any of the agreed- upon rules of the game is pretty much the height of asshattery and an indication that you're guilty of perhaps the worst of all possible game- related behaviors: poor sportsmanship. It also sounds like you should probably avoid RPGs because you obviously have a hard time drawing a line between the fantasy and reality. But to answer your question, they get lauded for what they did because it was skillfully executed and above all makes for a great story.
Rawr Cristina Caldari Naqam Exalted.	Posted - 2009.06.16 18:58:00 - [150] Originally by: floggar Oh I recognize my mistake. It was a dumb move on my part. That does not mean it is not bad behavior. This person obviosly does it often, or they are thier fellow gankers would not have a -9 status. It is bad behavior, imo. And the point of my creating this thread was not that I thought this should be against the rules or was cheating. The point of this thread is that in my opinion EVE encourages bad beahavior. EVE does does encourage clean fights. Eve does not encouragees playing with morale character. Im not whining about losing my ship. I do understand that it os part of the game. I am merely commenting on the tactics people choose to use. When did I say or imply that the uniniverse was conspiring against me? You read what you want to read. I understand the game. The only point I am trying to make was that EVE ENCOURAGES BAD BEHAVIOR. I'm not saying that these things should be banned. In a few cases things step over the line. Things such as Corp theft, Spies- where someone pretends to be your friend for weeks or months in some instances to gain access to an out of game mechanic such as team speak. Other things such as can flipping which serve no real purpose but for harassment and enjoyment of one part at the expense of another , or suicide ganking where there is no real consquence for the offending party are horrible game mechanics, but again allowed by the game. But as I have said more than once, JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN DO SOMETHING DOES NOT MEAN YOU SHOULD. All of you that are arguing against me and for these practices think I am whining about changing these or banning them or something have totally missed the point. Just come out and admit that yes these things are BAD BEHAVIOR. Not good bevavior. EVE DOES ENCOURAGE BAD BEVAVIOR, that fact cannot be disputed. People are free to be the biggest **s they can be in game. But I wonder why, why do they need to be s? because it is fun **ing people off? It is fun stealing things others have worked for? It is fun to be spies and manipulate people into friendship to give advantage (cheating) to one side over another? The answer most enevitably is yes, for some. Some people like to make other people feel bad. That is a sad portion of a persons character, if that is part of who they are. Lets all just admit that yes EVE does ENCOURAGE bad behavior? Dont try to argue against that fact because it is indisputable, then we can move on. I think you're forgetting the bit about EVE being a game imo. These bad, evil griefer type people are enjoying this game. They don't have anything against you, I'm sure you're a lovely person IRL but that's not really the point. If you take the game so seriously that you feel people who rob your monies/spaceships are horrible IRL, then you're doing something wrong.

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