Originally by: Christopher Multsanti

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Edited by: Christopher Multsanti on 17/06/2009 21:15:46
Ok here is a proposal, obviously server lag issues need to be considered.

The overview is split into 2 parts:

The top part: Your normal overview, with tabs and settings etc.

The bottom part: A much smaller section which only shows ships not on the grid within, for example purposes only, 40AU. Think of the drone window, you have drones in space and drones in distant space, this is the same principal. The second part will show you approaching players, incoming fleets and when they arrive on grid they transfer to the original overview and the game continues as normal.

Now, I don't want to blow my own trumpet, but that sounds like a damn fine idea.

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Originally by: CHAOS100

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This whole local issue in 0.0 is focused on only 1 aspect: ratters using local as a warning to run when someone comes in.

Yet you also used it to know that the ratter was there in the first place. PVPers use local as much, if not more, than ratters. Your average roaming gang uses it to get warning of impending doom as local fills with a 50 man gang to kill you. You use it to see where the ratting hotspots are in 0.0, and where the ratters are in the first place.
Is there a big gatecamp ahead in that 100au system with no planet near the destination gate? Well you could only know with local.

Without local you would be scanning down every system to try to find a ship, and when you find a ship on scan, chances are it is probably an empty ship at a pos. Later in the US timezone especially, 0.0 gets a bit sparse of targets. You could go 5 jumps or more without finding anything. It will get a wee bit tedious to scan down every single system to only find a target at a POS, or nothing at all.

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Originally by: Spurty

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I'm still waiting for people to realize that local gone doesn't help them one bit with regards to finding people ratting.

I have two accounts, I always sit my alt cloaked on the gate with it on my 2nd screen while I rat.

Nothing happens to the in gate without me spotting the flash of light. That is the queue to me warping to a ss waaaaaaaaaaaaaay away from that gate so I can cloak waaaaaaaaaaay before the roaming gang comes through.

Result? They leave immediately as they see 'nothing' in local on any scanners except perhaps a wreck or two.

Good luck getting kills this way, just going to end up doing lots of jumps and not even knowing you are missing systems full of people ratting.

This really *IRKS* me as I pvp more than I rat.

As for thinking an auto-scan will not make the server buckle, are you on drugs? You are clearly not aware of what happens at the transaction level when you perform a 'non-cached' query every second x say 10,000 people undocked.

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Edited by: Venkul Mul on 18/06/2009 08:03:28

Originally by: Turin

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The scanner would have to be FAR FAR more than 20 AU to even consider this.

TBH, if your only warning that someone is closing in on you, is a 20 AU warning on your scanner, then you are already dead. It takes a ship 2-3 seconds to go 20AU while in warp. Less for some.

At 20AU, you MIGHT have 2-3 seconds to react if you dont want to die. Most likely less. I would put my money on the ratter dieing EVERY time. I mighgt loose on a rare occasion, but over the long haul, I would win a far lot more than I lost.

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1) Scanner is 14 AU.

2) if it is automated the game program had a further check to do every x seconds to see if something is in range. That mean a query every x seconds to the server and a reply back with the info. Serious increase in load.

3) to decrease the load for the server the scan need to have a a low number of queries every minute (probably 1 every 5 seconds is too much);

4) it the hunter is warping to you from outside scanner range the delay from the scanner cycle (from 0 to 5 seconds) plus the human reaction time make almost granted that you attacker will be in scram range before you even give the command to warp (I assume that any competent roaming gangs will have sent a covops to check the belts so that they will be capable of warping to you within 5-10K without any trouble).

5) Warp disruption field bubble range is 16 km with no skills and something like 20km with maximum skill and don't require to lock a target, so, as soon as the attacker leave warp you have no way to leave.
(T3 with the correct module are immune to the HIC bubble? no idea, asking for info)

6) no difference with a non automated scanning system beside the fact that you can mash "scan" more often. But still I think CCP would put a delay to avoid server death.

So yes, even a alert player using the on board scanner would have major problems.

I wouldn't like the change. I suppose those living only for the killmail would like it.

Edit: removed pyramid quoting

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Originally by: Zaerlorth Maelkor

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If local is ever taken out and replaced by a better scanner, cloaking needs a serious nerf, or else a small gang of recons will just **** everything and everyone.

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Originally by: Descrambled

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#2 is not correct. You do not have to run checks every x amount of seconds. In programming, you strive to be event driven. "Polling" is always inefficient. So then, you only perform a radius check when triggered by the fact another ship has just warped to a destination (event driven). From there, the game can compute how long it takes to arrive at the destination. You then scan the destination for nearby ships and then send a packet to those clients alerting them a ship is "will be in" range. Since people cannot cancel mid-warp. This only requires 1 PACKET. Just one.
There should be no increased load. Once client receives packet the EVE UI will then only display an alert when the hostile is within scanner range.

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Plus the packet you send when you move,
Calculating the range and the effect of your movement (you can warp too and the time when you can have someone in ranghe change)
and when your packet should be sent? When I start warping? or when I actually enter warp? (a warp can be stopped if you haven't entered in the tunnel)
And so on.

Your 1 packet solution (to several computers) would probably cause so many bugs and false signals to be hilarious.

It is the kind of shortcut that has caused the moon minerals exploit: "don't include a checks, it is extra work".

Even more interesting you are sending a packet with the position of all ship in system to the program every X seconds, letting the EVE program on your PC doing all the calculations.

Exactly the kind of information that a good hacker and programmer would love to have. I will bet bot makers will crack that packet very fast and the get free access to the location of all people in system.

It is that the reason why all the combat calculations are done server side and not end user side. Protection from manipulations.

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Originally by: Holy Lowlander

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if you don't 0.0 alliance tinker under your name and you don't know how it is to actually live in 0.0 you shouldn't be in this discussion tbh.

If you remove local from 0.0 carebearing and money making gets far too risky , especially when you look at empire where running lvl IV missions or mining veldspar will probably make you more isk because you simply wont lose ships.

The arguement about hunting macro ratters is just plain stupid , doing anything against macros that will affect real humans negatively is stupid.

Carebears wont just sit in 0.0 without local and watch how they get blown up lol , they will simply go back to empire , and I doubt that is what you want ....

also siriously there are plenty of ratters and 0.0 carebears that get killed allready.... Just learn to scan faster ...

tl;dr No removing local please ...

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Originally by: Holy Lowlander

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Originally by: Descrambled

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Originally by: Holy Lowlander

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if you don't 0.0 alliance tinker under your name and you don't know how it is to actually live in 0.0 you shouldn't be in this discussion tbh.

If you remove local from 0.0 carebearing and money making gets far too risky , especially when you look at empire where running lvl IV missions or mining veldspar will probably make you more isk because you simply wont lose ships.

The arguement about hunting macro ratters is just plain stupid , doing anything against macros that will affect real humans negatively is stupid.

Carebears wont just sit in 0.0 without local and watch how they get blown up lol , they will simply go back to empire , and I doubt that is what you want ....

also siriously there are plenty of ratters and 0.0 carebears that get killed allready.... Just learn to scan faster ...

tl;dr No removing local please ...

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Right now its not risky at ALL. I havent died ratting in a whole year on my ratter character. Isn't something wrong with this picture?

0.0 is supposed to be a dangerous place. but all that is a sham

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if it isn't risky at ALL maybe you should ask yourself why other ratters do die ?
I see people killing about 5 ratting ravens a day ...

And 0.0 is supposed to be a very rewarding dangerous place , the fact you can get shot up everywhere (traveling to your ratting sight for instance ?) makes it rather dangerous , where is the huge reward for it again ?

ooh yes with lvl IV missions ....

0.0 risk vs reward is unbalanced in the way that there isn't enough reward to justify the risk. Not that 0.0 isn't risky enough.

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Originally by: Sky Marshal

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Edited by: Sky Marshal on 18/06/2009 15:37:03

Originally by: Descrambled

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You know the more I think about it the more I like it. Delayed local would fix this issue so elegantly. If you want to be safe while ratting then encourage your corp/alliance to post guards on the gates. Isn't it supposed to be your space anyway?

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You seriously think that players have fun by scouting at gates ?

Remember that we speak about a game. We login to have fun, not to execute a job, same if sometimes we have to put some effort.

Quote:

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Let the players work this out for themselves. If they don't like it they can go join the carebears in highsec

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"Work", the word is here. You just want make EVE a second job.

You are right after all. If I don't like it, I can go back in Empire (2 things made me go to null sec : Local and WTZ).

And after that, as I doubt that only few players will do that, you will whine again... ½ Carebears don't want take risks and stay in High Sec, I don't have targets ! Nerf Missions ! Nerf High Sec ! Remove Concord ! +.

Seriously... Just think more than one minute about the consequence of a change...

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Originally by: Wet Ferret

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Yes, remove it. So instead of:

Quote:

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- Monitors local channel for hostiles

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We see:

Quote:

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- Monitors directional scanner for ships outside of specified distance

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Don't worry, the constant extra database calls and inconvenience of legitimate players will be worth it.

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Originally by: Neutrino Sunset

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Originally by: Ephemeron

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The fact that we see so many macro farming Ravens in 0.0 is proof that it is too easy.

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This statement is logically equivalent to the statement: 'The fact that there are so many players cheating and using bots, is proof of the fact that the game is too easy for those players not cheating and using bots.'

Could you explain how this is so, because on face value such an assertion would appear to be baseless.

Originally by: Ephemeron

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A sign of successful implementation would be a significant decrease in the macro farmer Ravens in 0.0, CCP can easily verify that.

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Would 0.0 being not only devoid of macroers but also devoid of anyone else trying to earn a living ratting or mining in 0.0 also be a sign of a successful implementation?

Would nobody flying anything in small gangs in 0.0 other than cloaking ships also be a sign of a successful implementation?

If having no local and no way to detect cloaked ships would merely 'raise the bar on personal skill level required to operate successfully'. Could you enumerate the skill based techniques which would still allow solo or small gangs of ratters and miners to operate successfully?

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Originally by: Neutrino Sunset

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Originally by: Ephemeron

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Neutrino Sunset, it isn't proper to claim that WH design would be simply extended to all of 0.0 without any scanner improvement.

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I didn't.

You said CCP would never implement a local change that would force people to scan manually, if not for game design reasons then for server performance reasons. I haven't said that they would necessarily use the wspace model in 0.0, but if they do choose to implement a different model it will presumably be for reasons other than server load issues or horrid gameplay mechanics since they have already implemented that solution in wspace and are apparently satisfied with it from both a server load and gameplay perspective.

How is implementing an auto scan feature on its own any kind of solution to arriving at a workable no local implementation for 0.0 when it doesn't detect cloaked ships at all, which are already the pirate's gankmobile of choice? Unless of course retaining the ability for anyone to earn a living in 0.0 is not a desirable objective.

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Originally by: Neutrino Sunset

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I have some bad news for you Descrambled, it looks like ECM drones are about to get hit with the nerf hammer.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1056041

I think some people took exception to the fact that other people were able to use them to escape being ganked.

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