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Mysteriax Scoopex Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.06.18 00:03:00 - [31] Edited by: Mysteriax on 18/06/2009 00:06:29 Edited by: Mysteriax on 18/06/2009 00:05:54 Edited by: Mysteriax on 18/06/2009 00:04:32 Originally by: Merin Ryskin Allow me to summarize the thread in one simple sentence: "Make Minmatar the only race worth using." Are projectiles the weakest weapon? Yes. But they MUST be the weakest weapon, since the ships that use them have such a decisive speed advantage. If projectiles have any significant range where they have an advantage, flying any non-Minmatar ship will be suicide, as the Minmatar ship will ALWAYS be at its ideal range, and therefore always win the fight. Can I have what you have been smoking. 1 Speed our BS have the same speed hell some are even slower, not even talking about our mass. 2 Speed is an advantage to Artillery weapons how?? OMG my sniper is 5 m/s faster then your sniper haha, oh wait artillery tracks so bad thats actually a disadvantage. 3 Also not all our ships are allot faster yes we have the vaga the stabber and the vigil. But the rest are barely any faster then the other ships. Also how can we take advantage of our speed if all the weapons are better at nearly all ranges? My proof Quote from the topic posted This is an absolute comparison (lol even the link is filtered the **** after the o should be a 4 letter word for poop commonly used as a swearword) , developed when I was discussing anti support setups with corp members. With tracking previewed, the results look more like this (red=tempest, teal=megathron, green=raven, blue=Armageddon) - an observer would be forgiven in mistaking Minmatar and Amarr as completely different tech-levels. Damn merin atleast in the past you actually tried your best with trolls.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.06.18 01:25:00 - [32] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 18/06/2009 01:32:21 Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 18/06/2009 01:26:42 Originally by: Mysteriax 1 Speed our BS have the same speed hell some are even slower, not even talking about our mass. So what if your battleships suck? Amarr frigates and T1 cruisers suck, Caldari solo ship suck, and Gallente blaster ships suck. If you want a race with no weaknesses, then you'd better also be demanding a fix for all the similar problems. Not that it's really needed of course, as the awesomeness of the smaller Minmatar ships more than makes up for any lack of battleships. Quote: 2 Speed is an advantage to Artillery weapons how?? OMG my sniper is 5 m/s faster then your snip er haha, oh wait artillery tracks so bad thats actually a disadvantage. See above, about battleships. At all other levels, artillery merely joins beam lasers and railguns on the "mostly useless" pile. Also, the supposed worthlessness of artillery has a lot more to do with the fact that all of the ships that are meant to use it are terrible. Fix the Muninn itself, and the guns are not an issue. Quote: 3 Also not all our ships are allot faster yes we have the vaga the stabber and the vigil. But the rest are barely any faster then the other ships. Vagabond/Stabber, Rapier/Huginn, Jaguar/Rifter, Hurricane/Sleipnir, Scimitar, Loki, Machariel. Minmatar have a HUGE speed advantage overall. Quote: Also how can we take advantage of our speed if all the weapons are better at nearly all ranges? Because you have an advantage against each opponent. Against blasters, you stay out of range and kill them from a distance. Against lasers, you get in close and exploit your superior tracking. Against missiles, you get in close and exploit your superior damage. And at all ranges, you use your superior speed to dictate the terms of engagement. If you don't want to fight, nobody can catch you. If you want to break off and warp out, nobody can stop you as long as you stay out of web/scram range (something very easy to do). If you want to prevent the other guy from warping out before you kill him, all you have to do is press the approach button. Honestly, the fact that you don't know these things should make your lack of credibility on the issue extremely obvious. Minmatar are fine, exactly as they are. The only changes required are minor fixes specific to a small number of ships (for example, the Muninn's terrible slot layout) that have nothing to do with Minmatar as a whole.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2009.06.18 01:58:00 - [33] Merin, you haven't exactly proved yourself to be knowledgeable in minmatar either. When ships that are double damaged towards projectiles do more damage with other weapon systems, there's a problem. A serious problem. Fact is, projectiles suck. They're not supposed to be or ever going to be as good as lasers. However they're currently not worth using on LOTS of minmatar ships. Falloff SUCKS. There's one skill and one rig that modifies falloff. Hell, it doesn't even scale with weapon tiers. I have come to rue the day I trained minnie BS 5 and large projectile turret 5.... I would trade it for the gal/cal version in a heartbeat. While minnie's strength lies in the smaller ships (and not even frigs... the wolf and rifter hardly call for the domination of an entire class), ships in every class suffer from the same issues. Falloff. Artillery. Utility slots. So no, don't give me some bull**** about how minmatar is fine. They're not.
Breaks	Posted - 2009.06.18 02:39:00 - [34] Posting in a "please make my race overpowered again" thread
Myrkala Minmatar Aurora Acclivitous	Posted - 2009.06.18 02:41:00 - [35] Something tells me the devs aren't quite catching on fast enough...
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.06.18 02:59:00 - [36] Originally by: AstroPhobic When ships that are double damaged towards projectiles do more damage with other weapon systems, there's a problem. And just which ship is this? I realize that the single-bonused ships have a problem (kind of like the single-bonused laser ships are often used with ACs instead), but all of the double-bonused ships work just fine. I don't think I've ever seen laser Vagabonds, Hurricanes, Jaguars, etc. Quote: I have come to rue the day I trained minnie BS 5 and large projectile turret 5.... I would trade it for the gal/cal version in a heartbeat. While minnie's strength lies in the smaller ships (and not even frigs... the wolf and rifter hardly call for the domination of an entire class), ships in every class suffer from the same issues. Falloff. Artillery. Utility slots. Yes, Minmatar battleships suck. Your point? Like I said above, every race has a similar hole in their lineup. And it's hardly just the Wolf and Rifter. The Jaguar, Sabre, Vagabond, Rapier/Huginn, Hurricane, Sleipnir, Claymore, Loki, and Broadsword are all awesome top-tier ships. Compare that to the number of top-tier ships the other races get, and Minmatar don't look so bad. -----------
Zupkuck Jovian Vigilantes Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.06.18 03:27:00 - [37] Meryn, as always, you're an idiot. Why do Minmatar BS's suck? According to you, it's just their lot in life. That's an incredibly stupid answer.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2009.06.18 03:38:00 - [38] Edited by: AstroPhobic on 18/06/2009 03:42:07 Edited by: AstroPhobic on 18/06/2009 03:38:20 Originally by: Merin Ryskin Originally by: AstroPhobic When ships that are double damaged towards projectiles do more damage with other weapon systems, there's a problem. And just which ship is this? I realize that the single-bonused ships have a problem (kind of like the single-bonused laser ships are often used with ACs instead), but all of the double-bonused ships work just fine. I don't think I've ever seen laser Vagabonds, Hurricanes, Jaguars, etc. The problem is eDPS. Vagabonds can't fight at 2km. Hurricanes can, but they're outclassed at that range. I can't say about the jaguar, I don't fly one, but frig mechanics play a little bit differently. Those ships will do more DPS with lasers and scorch at the ranges where minmatar is "supposed to" fight. Ambit rigs mitigate the pain, but that's the ONLY option there is. Quote: Quote: I have come to rue the day I trained minnie BS 5 and large projectile turret 5.... I would trade it for the gal/cal version in a heartbeat. While minnie's strength lies in the smaller ships (and not even frigs... the wolf and rifter hardly call for the domination of an entire class), ships in every class suffer from the same issues. Falloff. Artillery. Utility slots. Yes, Minmatar battleships suck. Your point? Like I said above, every race has a similar hole in their lineup. You see, it's not a hole. You're looking at it from the wrong perspective. Let's just say that projectiles are the issue, and for the time say that their tank to speed ratio is in balance (I don't believe it is, but I digress). Well, why don't the frigates suck then? Frigates fight in ranges that are still fairly black and white thanks to large amounts of speed and web/scram. 1km/s on an afterburner frigate makes the difference between a 2km optimal and a 8km optimal very little. It's easier to get in and out of range, especially at the high paced play. Well, why don't the cruisers suck then? The cruisers also benefit from the black/white nature of that 10km bubble. You can essentially play "vagabond" with these ships. Stay out of range, use speed and buffer to your advantage. The tank bonused ships (cyclone hull) have merit. They're useful solo and occasionally useful in gangs thanks to high speed and well tracking autocannons. Well, why do the battleships suck then? The 10km bubble is largely nonexistant. Speeds are much much lower and range becomes of much larger importance. You're not soloing, you're in a gang. You don't fit well in an RR gang unless you're a 50m SP phoon pilot. You fight largely into falloff, and your damage sucks. Your tank sucks. You have no speed to use to your advantage. The frigates and cruisers work well on each respective side of the "bubble". They only work because they fit well in the bubble gameplay.
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2009.06.18 05:06:00 - [39] I think that you could fix the problems with Minmatar by making a few simple changes, not sure if you need to do all of the ones mentioned in that thread. 1) Make autocannon falloff, instead of optimal, scale with weapon tier (although if this results in me losing falloff on D180s I will be sad). 2) Boost Fusion to equal base damage of Multifrequency and Antimatter; as it stands there's not an appealing option for close range ammo as RF EMP is gimped due to low damage and an often undesirable split of damage types and Hail has the horrific penatlies associated with close range T2 ammo. Leave the other ammo as it is. 3) Boost artilery clip size and alpha, reduce RoF. I think as a whole the race is pretty decent; I've come to enjoy the low fitting and nonexistent cap usages of autocannons and the modest speed advantage and utility slots have grown on me. To be honest I think they're the second best overall race behind Amarr right now for solo and small gangs, but I've never really liked Gallente or Caldari ships much anyway.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.06.18 05:57:00 - [40] Originally by: AstroPhobic Originally by: Furb Killer More important, while artillery needs work, i dont really see the issue with ACs. They arent worse than blasters. Why boost everything, when you can also just nerf pulse lasers. ACs were very inferior to pre-nerf blasters. They're inferior to their missile counterparts. Hell, they only reason they're used is because they don't suck cap from ships that fight in the 15 <-> 25km range. I'm sure half those ships (minmatar or not) are better off switching from autos to pulse anyway. 38.5% of DPS at optimal + falloff is both pathetic and cruel. They're the lowest damage system at 0km, they're the lowest damage system at their optimal, and they're the second worst at their optimal + falloff (second to only blasters, which can't hit that far). So ACs are inferior to pre nerf blasters? How on earth can that be relevant. Why not compare them to 2004 pulse lasers. Or star trek photon torpedos. Lets compare them to the current situations. Where they are arguably superior to blasters, and they can in general outdamage missile users at short range. The only problem is that they are basicly outdamage by laser users at every range (allthough they got better damage types). Then the problem is the pulse lasers. Make them worse (either lower dps or tracking), and everyone is happy again.

Zupkuck Jovian Vigilantes Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.06.18 12:53:00 - [41] Daily bump to keep the discussion going. In light of the recent dev blog, it's necessary.
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2009.06.18 13:20:00 - [42] I would prefere to adjust Blasters and AKs instead nerfing lasers. The problem with Aks are that they miss out 10% DPS from her T1 amno and the rapid DPS drop in Falloff(it should be more like 50-60% damage at Optimal+Falloff instead the terrible 40% you get now). Bigger tiers of AKs should increase the falloff like on any other weapons. small: 125mm > 4000m, 150mm -> 4500m, 200mm -> 5000m med: 180mm -> 8000m, 220mm -> 9000m, 425mm -> 10000m large: 425mm -> 20000m, 650mm -> 22000m, 800mm -> 24000m You still don¦t have the better DPS at range than Lasers but the grap would not be this big(combined with the consideralbe higher DPS at Optimal+Falloff). Artillery is terrible, it should have at least a doubled clip size across the board and considerable more Alpha + a small DPS increase. Tempest is terrible, the double damage bonus should be merged into one(10%-12.5% per level) and a usefull bonus should be addet like Tracking or better yet Falloff to make the ship not inferior to the Mealstorm or Typhoon in any possible situation plus 100/150m¦ Dronebay to be more flexible.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2009.06.18 13:28:00 - [43] Originally by: Furb Killer So ACs are inferior to pre nerf blasters? How on earth can that be relevant. Why not compare them to 2004 pulse lasers. Or star trek photon torpedos. Lets compare them to the current situations. It's very relevant. Blasters need fixing too, you see. The solution isn't NERF NERF NERF. Missiles are in line. Quote: Where they are arguably superior to blasters, and they can in general outdamage missile users at short range. Uh? Not really, no. Full gank maybe but you're still dealing with tracking at that short range and even bits of falloff. Look at a torp raven vs an AC tempest or maelstrom. Torp raven blows it out of the water with DPS. HAM drake vs hurricane... closer, but HAMdrake will have more real DPS. Quote: The only problem is that they are basicly outdamage by laser users at every range (allthough they got better damage types). Then the problem is the pulse lasers. Make them worse (either lower dps or tracking), and everyone is happy again. No, they're outdamaged by missiles too. And Blasters until blasters are WELL into their falloff. Maybe you missed some of those lovely charts that show damage/range that don't even include hit quality. Those minnie falloff lines get steeper and steeper while that pulse line is nice and flat, the missile line is nice and flat, and the blaster line is a giant ant hill.
Duke Starbuckington	Posted - 2009.06.18 17:18:00 - [44] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Because you have an advantage against each opponent. Against blasters, you stay out of range and kill them from a distance. Against lasers, you get in close and exploit your superior tracking. Against missiles, you get in close and exploit your superior damage. And at all ranges, you use your superior speed to dictate the terms of engagement. If you don't want to fight, nobody can catch you. If you want to break off and warp out, nobody can stop you as long as you stay out of web/scram range (something very easy to do). If you want to prevent the other guy from warping out before you kill him, all you have to do is press the approach button. Wow that makes projectiles sound overpowered... and yet you still use lasers constantly.
RedSplat Heretic Army	Posted - 2009.06.18 17:23:00 - [45] Originally by: Merin Ryskin But they MUST be the weakest weapon, since the ships that use them have such a decisive speed advantage. You fly Caldari and Amarr dont you Merin. Originally by: CCP Mitnal I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting. Originally by: CCP Mitnal it does get progressively longer.
Ghoest	Posted - 2009.06.18 17:25:00 - [46] Edited by: Ghoest on 18/06/2009 17:26:15 He makes some points but he doesnt focus on artillery enough. Arty needs 10% more damage per shot. 10% less power grid fitting requirment 50% more ammo capacity Wherever you went - Here you are.
Miriyana Gallente Corp 1 Allstars	Posted - 2009.06.18 17:32:00 - [47] Originally by: Shinnen what's scrapheap-challenge.com ? you're such a terrible noob... - - - - - - Change just leads to more problems Originally by: CCP Wrangler Oh please no, I've had enough with real world taxes, and dealing with the tax agency. No more taxes!!
Zupkuck Jovian Vigilantes Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2009.06.18 20:59:00 - [48] Originally by: Myrkala Something tells me the devs aren't quite catching on fast enough... Still no response in the comments of Diagoras' blog, either. You'd think balance would be a priority of CCP's.
Magnus Castaneus Cross Roads	Posted - 2009.06.18 22:11:00 - [49] tl;dr is there a small summary? props on the psyduck though
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.06.18 22:33:00 - [50] Posting in a "please make my race overpowered again" thread Matars are still whining.

JonnyKay Gallente Federation of Freedom Fighters Aggression.	Posted - 2009.06.18 23:08:00 - [51] It's been literally over a year of constant whining / EFT warrioring / theoryEVEing with many people making threads dedicated to how minmatar ships seriously need loving, and still... CCP does nothing.
buttesauce	Posted - 2009.06.18 23:28:00 - [52] The only beef I have with large projectiles is the low ammo capacity. However the bellicose is bad! It needs to drop the damage bonus in return for a 7.5% web range bonus per level of minmatar cruiser! And the cyclone is the other bad ship! It needs another mid slot and slightly more grid and cpu.
Beverly Sparks	Posted - 2009.06.19 16:38:00 - [53] Originally by: Naomi Knight Posting in a "please make my race overpowered again" thread Matars are still whining. Would you rather a nerf lasers thread?
Beverly Sparks	Posted - 2009.06.19 16:46:00 - [54] Originally by: buttesauce The only beef I have with large projectiles is the low ammo capacity. The range, tracking, and DPS isn't so hot either. Belliwhat? Never heard of it.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2009.06.19 16:53:00 - [55] Originally by: Beverly Sparks Originally by: Naomi Knight Posting in a "please make my race overpowered again" thread Matars are still whining. Would you rather a nerf lasers thread? Yes, nerf the stupid optimal of pulse lasers and all of a sudden you 'mend' minnie and gallente issues. As in, they all have problems but at least they're somewhat on par. Self-proclaimed idiot
Valeri Tempest	Posted - 2009.06.19 18:39:00 - [56] go here:http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=23336 it is all explained and even has shiny graphs etc for lazy people
Grann Thefauto Internal Anarchy	Posted - 2009.06.19 19:47:00 - [57] Minmatar are overall fine, probably one of the more balance races I think. The battleships need some adjusting perhaps, and I never use artillery so I dont' care about those. But you can't really go wrong with anything under BS class.
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2009.06.19 21:44:00 - [58] Originally by: Grann Thefauto Minmatar are overall fine, probably one of the more balance races I think. The battleships need some adjusting perhaps, and I never use artillery so I dont' care about those. But you can't really go wrong with anything under BS class. "Minmatar is fine because I'm ignoring half of their weapon systems and a good portion of their ships" ACs suck too, the tactics with which they're used are the only thing keeping them "in line". Trust me, nobody is going to cry over a hurricane gaining another 100 DPS at it's engagement range.
ClogMan Caldari Caldari Anvil	Posted - 2009.06.24 10:32:00 - [59] /bump for CCP
Trefnis Minmatar Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.06.24 11:16:00 - [60] Originally by: Furb Killer Then add some weird things, like the tempest sucks because it has a dual damage bonus. the point of it is you give up 2 bonuses to get sub par guns, other bses get range/tank/tracking/whatever that is usufull



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