EVE Search - Why you don't need to 0.01 isk

Check My IP Information

All Channels

Market Discussions

Why you don't need to 0.01 isk - An Example Manipulation

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: [1] :: one page

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
glas mir Reaction Scientific	Posted - 2009.06.19 00:47:00 - [1] The market discussions forum sees many different kinds of posts. It is easy to get wrapped up in the public offerings and bonds, but this forum also hosts discussion on other aspects of markets in eve. It is often a great resource for new traders, and can be an outlet for more experienced traders to release ônews.ö Recently, there has been a spattering of posts regarding 0.01 isking. While the MD is a great resource for new traders, it is not a static career and the information requires a bit of sifting to get at. As a trader, I would rather not have a direct competitor in my niche, and so usually you should evaluate posts in the MD for what the authorÆs goals are, often the answer is the opposite of what they say. After sifting, I expect most people would realize there is no one specific way to trade or any real guide to follow, but there are different trading strategies: among them are margin trading (has nothing to do with the skill), cycle trading, slow sell, recycling, and manipulation. I believe that most new traders start with the margin trading strategy, perhaps within one station, perhaps between regions. They then come to the conclusion that they cannot corner the market and thus any reduction in the margin is a reduction in profits. They must engage in 0.01 isking in order to maximize profits. While I disagree, I see it as an easy logical conclusion to make. You have to remember that profit per time and profit per capital are the two standards with which to measure yourself against. Time might be limited by amount of play time or in game time. 0.01 isking might be a good way to get the best price and get the maximum exposure at the front of the order queue and turn over the most capital in the shortest amount of time, but it takes a lot of game time to do. As this is a game, I value my play time and I donÆt find 0.01 isking generally fun, although I will do it if I have to. I have consistently argued that there are other trading strategies, and I have usually left it up to the readers to find them. I have decided to show an example.
glas mir Reaction Scientific	Posted - 2009.06.19 00:48:00 - [2] SHORT TERM JITA MANIPULATION The mark was identified a few days ago. Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I. It is the best named (meta 4) heavy energy neutralizer. It is generally preferred over the t2 variety because it has lower powergrid requirements and lower skill requirements. Therefore it has a decent demand, 500 or so trade a day in the forge, and I also noticed there werenÆt many on sale in the forge. About 300, mostly around 550k. I placed a large 100 order at 10% over the buy a few days ago. It had filled to 74/100 and there were several large orders, one for 200 now above it. I placed another for 75 at 490k and bought out the forge. I bought 286 meta 4 heavy neuts off the market, at a cost of 166.5M. Average cost 582k, I started with Quote: 6/18/2009 18:36, qty 24, Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I, 534299.3 each I relisted 10 at 1.5M. It was a little while before someone 0.01 isked that sell order. Meanwhile I placed a plethora of orders designed to build buy orders at 800k. I had multiple orders, for about 250 units total from 666k-800k. Within four hours the price had been 0.01 isked down to 1.39M, but the margin of 800k-1399k was still attractive if you didnÆt look at the buy order placement time. Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. Image showing a market snapshot: All but the top order are my orders. I returned at 20:30 or about two hours later, and cleared the 800k orders that werenÆt mine, selling 150 units. Then at 22:30 cleared the rest of the 800k sell orders and canceled the small buy orders, dropped the big buy orders back down. I sold 301 units (extra 15 from 100 original buy order) for 244.7M. Average price 813k. Just buying straight off the market, I was able to raise the price 40% and net 66M just from those bought off the market. I was away from the computer between the initial buy up and the selloffs, so my total game time investment was low. On top of that, it was fun. Obviously it was a quick, dirty, and relatively small scale manipulation, you could do more with more time or possibly more capital. My wallet transactions parsed into buys and sells is available here: Link to excel file
glas mir Reaction Scientific	Posted - 2009.06.19 00:49:00 - [3] reserved for future thoughts.
Taedrin Gallente Golden Mechanization Protectorate	Posted - 2009.06.19 02:04:00 - [4] I myself always prefer matching a competitor's price instead of undercutting by .01 ISK. By undercutting their price, their orders automatically stop moving. By matching their price, their orders keep moving, albeit at a slower pace. If they are too lazy to watch the market itself and instead rely upon using the API to monitor their orders, they may mistake the slow product movement as a drop in demand as opposed to a spike in supply. With any luck, they will be too lazy to check the market to realise that someone is competing with them - especially if they have other orders in other places to check up on. Another plus to this is that you cut your competitor's incentive to undercut you in half (ignoring the importance of driving away competition by frustrating them through .01 ISK undercutting). If you undercut them, then they stop making money entirely. Let's presume that they generate 100 million ISK a day from their order if they have no competition. If you undercut them, they generate 0 ISK a day. If they decide to .01 ISK undercut you, they make 100 million ISK for the time they spend undercutting you. If you match their order, they generate 50 million ISK a day from their order (presuming equal distribution of purchases). By .01 ISK undercutting you, they only make 50 million ISK for the time they spend undercutting you. Presuming that they are smart traders, they very well may decide that it may be more profitable to spend their time on another activity that generates more ISK than undercutting their competition. Of course, if there ISN'T another activity more profitable than undercutting you, then they will keep undercutting you to drive you away. Or if they are trying to corner the market, they will do this anyways. Summary: Pros: -Your competitors are less likely to notice that they have competition -Your competitor is more likely to decide to co-exist with you -You spend less time micromanaging your orders: more efficient use of the player's time. Cons: -Orders take longer to fill: less efficient use of real time -Advantages disappear if competitor decides to undercut you anyways.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.06.19 03:03:00 - [5] Originally by: Taedrin By matching their price, their orders keep moving, albeit at a slower pace. Incorrect. Their order always processes first. You only get to sell your first unit when their order is completely gone. Older orders take precedence over younger orders. There is no "you sell some, I sell some" in the case of evenly priced orders. EVE issues\|Mining revamp\|Build stuff\|Make ISK
glas mir Reaction Scientific	Posted - 2009.06.19 05:18:00 - [6] Originally by: Akita T There is no "you sell some, I sell some" in the case of evenly priced orders. yeah, that is how I understand it. The older order takes 100% of the volume.
skilzrulz Gallente 0neZeR0 Enterprises	Posted - 2009.06.19 06:37:00 - [7] One strategy I used was gathering a large list of people that resold tech 2 items. Then I started manipulating Heavy Beam Laser II's. I raised the price from 890K to 1.5M to 2.5M. After a month of this constant price fix. I contacted my resellers and sold the units to them in bulk for 2M. The market crashed; but I cashed out.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.06.19 06:41:00 - [8] Holy Batman! Teh Forum Dimensions, itz diztorted! TMPI
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.06.19 11:48:00 - [9] Lemmings I say! I always look at markets and say, Imagine what I could do with more capital never managed to put more then 100mil or so into trading though. damn brokers fees and sales tax
Ms Delerium	Posted - 2009.06.19 11:51:00 - [10] Originally by: Taedrin I myself always prefer matching a competitor's price instead of undercutting by .01 ISK. By undercutting their price, their orders automatically stop moving. False assumption. There was a thread about lemmings in which someone shows up the stupidity of some of them. Of course they will undercut. Basically you can control their prices as they will always -0.01 you

flakeys Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.19 14:02:00 - [11] Each operation has it's own approach.I understand why some might be against 0.01 gaming or find their logic not to. I do regional orders, have done for the last 8 months.I am a 0.01 isk player on some items and play big isk on others.It is all depending on the volume i get from it and the profit margin there is to play with.I had a few competitors drop in who clearly hated 0.01 isk bidding and thought with playing the big isk game they would get rid of the annoying competition , being me.I proved them wrong , also because i know i work with a rather large backup. Most moved on but the last months i have one hanging around.He played the big isk on me and i immediatly raised him with 0.01.He tried this 2 times and then started doing 0.01 too.So now we both are playing 0.01 isk and for example instead of raising 200mille a day we now have to do with 150. I never use 0.01 on my sales though , i set an amount and it stays that way even if it is hanging there for weeks i know eventually it will sell at the price i want for it. To sum up 0.01 can be usefull at times and all depends on different things if it should be used or not.I do not 'hate ' people for trying to outbid me by a lot so don't be hatefull if someone plays 0.01 on you.
SencneS Amarr Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2009.06.19 14:26:00 - [12] Originally by: skilzrulz One strategy I used was gathering a large list of people that resold tech 2 items. Then I started manipulating Heavy Beam Laser II's. I raised the price from 890K to 1.5M to 2.5M. After a month of this constant price fix. I contacted my resellers and sold the units to them in bulk for 2M. The market crashed; but I cashed out. LOL That's funny because I've done the same thing but in the opposite direction. It doesn't work for Minerals but it does work manufactured item. Buy the item then relist at a lower price, although I am taking a small lost at this stage it's worth it. Just account for your loses. Each time I purchase cheaper items I only re-list a small amount of them. What ends up happening is I am left with a sizable stock. Then given the nature of everyone in EVE, they WANT to make ISK! So they buy up inventory and start jacking the prices as you apparently do, the prices get up higher and higher, and so do buy orders because manipulation works better if you place buy orders alongside your sell orders. Eventually the price of those 800K each Heavy Beam Laser IIs I purchased are priced at 2.5mil, the buy orders go up for 2mil or whatever and I cash out. Oh the two sides of every story Amarr for Life
Asset Liquidator	Posted - 2009.06.19 16:55:00 - [13] This strategy is rather brilliant. I'll have to start taking a closer look at the market trends for opportunity like this.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.06.19 17:05:00 - [14] Originally by: SencneS Originally by: skilzrulz One strategy I used was gathering a large list of people that resold tech 2 items. Then I started manipulating Heavy Beam Laser II's. I raised the price from 890K to 1.5M to 2.5M. After a month of this constant price fix. I contacted my resellers and sold the units to them in bulk for 2M. The market crashed; but I cashed out. LOL That's funny because I've done the same thing but in the opposite direction. It doesn't work for Minerals but it does work manufactured item. Buy the item then relist at a lower price, although I am taking a small lost at this stage it's worth it. Just account for your loses. Each time I purchase cheaper items I only re-list a small amount of them. What ends up happening is I am left with a sizable stock. Then given the nature of everyone in EVE, they WANT to make ISK! So they buy up inventory and start jacking the prices as you apparently do, the prices get up higher and higher, and so do buy orders because manipulation works better if you place buy orders alongside your sell orders. Eventually the price of those 800K each Heavy Beam Laser IIs I purchased are priced at 2.5mil, the buy orders go up for 2mil or whatever and I cash out. Oh the two sides of every story This is also where I step in, with hundreds of items I got in another region at 600k in lazy mode and dump them all for 2mil each

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2009.06.19 17:11:00 - [15] I say like I always do, I'll rather dump the price by a lot to get rid of my stock fast than messing around, altho then I'm not a market warrior so...

flakeys Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.19 19:16:00 - [16] Originally by: Chribba altho then I'm not a market warrior so... Meh you're like the brad pitt of eve , people pay you just to show your face at parties
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange	Posted - 2009.06.19 21:33:00 - [17] I don't think anyone has ever claimed that 0.01 was the only way to make money, but if you're just looking to sell mission loot, or a random low-volume industry output, it's generally best. If you're trying to manipulate, of course, it's a whole different kettle of fish.
Taedrin Gallente Golden Mechanization Protectorate	Posted - 2009.06.19 21:57:00 - [18] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Taedrin By matching their price, their orders keep moving, albeit at a slower pace. Incorrect. Their order always processes first. You only get to sell your first unit when their order is completely gone. Older orders take precedence over younger orders. There is no "you sell some, I sell some" in the case of evenly priced orders. Well, I guess you learn something new everyday. This would probably why I run missions instead of trade for a living in EVE.
Black Mack	Posted - 2009.06.21 00:08:00 - [19] Edited by: Black Mack on 21/06/2009 00:09:06 I've run a few manipulations like the one that the OP mentioned, with mixed results. One factor that I'm trying to understand (and that often ruins my plans) is this: how do you avoid your buy orders being filled, ending up with hundreds of unneeded and expensive items? I ran into this problem today, actually. I began by selecting a t1 item that had a very high volume, but with a relatively small amount of units on the market. I purchased all of them, increased the prices by about 100%, and then set a large buy order about 100k above a very large buy order that I wanted to move. I came back to my computer several hours later, only to find that the large orders had not moved at all. In fact, a manufacturer had dumped their stock onto me, completely filling my order. Being a t1 item, this module is very fast to manufacture. Producers were quick to jump on the increased profits, and the price has now crashed significantly, without any of the large buy orders increasing in price. This has taught me (the hard way) an important lesson: do not attempt this sort of manipulation without being sure that the owners of large buy orders are online, and will try to outbid you. Also, high volume t1 items have a large amount of competitors, resulting in any manipulation being very short-lived before it crashes into oblivion. How can I avoid situations like this in the future, and what is the best way to inflate buy order prices without fear of purchasing a very large amount of unwanted stuff? It occurs to me that any sort of manipulation that relies on the lemming effect will be much more effective in larger trade hubs, otherwise you may wait for long period of time, waiting for competitors to undercut you while your window of opportunity ticks away. Any other perspectives on this dilemma?
glas mir Reaction Scientific	Posted - 2009.06.21 04:22:00 - [20] Originally by: Black Mack how do you avoid your buy orders being filled, ending up with hundreds of unneeded and expensive items? I don't do this with items that can be manufactured, so I only worry about regional traders shipping in new stock, or someone with a large stockpile. For this particular one, once I sold my stock I got rid of the high orders. It is a risk, you can lose isk trying to manipulate prices. I also mentioned the initial order. I bumped the price up 10% a few days before and I observed what the lemmings did, I was satisfied there were enough margin traders on the item, so I moved forward. If that initial order had been completely filled, I would have come in from a different angle.

Black Mack	Posted - 2009.06.21 05:47:00 - [21] I've never tried to manipulate t1 manufactured before, and it was my carelessness that tripped me up this time. I've never tried testing the waters beforehand, though, which is something that I will definitely try to do in the future.
Endurance Vile	Posted - 2009.06.21 11:05:00 - [22] Originally by: Black Mack Edited by: Black Mack on 21/06/2009 00:09:06 In fact, a manufacturer had dumped their stock onto me, completely filling my order. Being a t1 item, this module is very fast to manufacture. ? If this was the 100mn microwarpdrives in dodoxie them I'm afraid you got unlucky. I've been accumulating then for about two weeks as they were 150k below their reprocessing value. I stopped when they reached 50k short but was holding on to them until I finished scrapmetal processing. I had accumulated about 600 then 180 were listed at scrap price and I need the liquid cash as I have just started trading so filled that and then a couple of hours later about the same again at just over 100k over scrap price. I even managed to sell 3 on the market for 1 million but things are back to normal now. I actually wondered what the hell was going on.
Ji Sama Caldari Tash-Murkon Prime Industries Sex Drugs And Rock'N'Roll	Posted - 2009.06.21 11:06:00 - [23] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Originally by: SencneS Originally by: skilzrulz One strategy I used was gathering a large list of people that resold tech 2 items. Then I started manipulating Heavy Beam Laser II's. I raised the price from 890K to 1.5M to 2.5M. After a month of this constant price fix. I contacted my resellers and sold the units to them in bulk for 2M. The market crashed; but I cashed out. LOL That's funny because I've done the same thing but in the opposite direction. It doesn't work for Minerals but it does work manufactured item. Buy the item then relist at a lower price, although I am taking a small lost at this stage it's worth it. Just account for your loses. Each time I purchase cheaper items I only re-list a small amount of them. What ends up happening is I am left with a sizable stock. Then given the nature of everyone in EVE, they WANT to make ISK! So they buy up inventory and start jacking the prices as you apparently do, the prices get up higher and higher, and so do buy orders because manipulation works better if you place buy orders alongside your sell orders. Eventually the price of those 800K each Heavy Beam Laser IIs I purchased are priced at 2.5mil, the buy orders go up for 2mil or whatever and I cash out. Oh the two sides of every story This is also where I step in, with hundreds of items I got in another region at 600k in lazy mode and dump them all for 2mil each QFT
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.06.21 11:19:00 - [24] Originally by: flakeys Each operation has it's own approach.I understand why some might be against 0.01 gaming or find their logic not to. I do regional orders, have done for the last 8 months.I am a 0.01 isk player on some items and play big isk on others.It is all depending on the volume i get from it and the profit margin there is to play with.I had a few competitors drop in who clearly hated 0.01 isk bidding and thought with playing the big isk game they would get rid of the annoying competition , being me.I proved them wrong , also because i know i work with a rather large backup. Most moved on but the last months i have one hanging around.He played the big isk on me and i immediatly raised him with 0.01.He tried this 2 times and then started doing 0.01 too.So now we both are playing 0.01 isk and for example instead of raising 200mille a day we now have to do with 150. I never use 0.01 on my sales though , i set an amount and it stays that way even if it is hanging there for weeks i know eventually it will sell at the price i want for it. To sum up 0.01 can be usefull at times and all depends on different things if it should be used or not.I do not 'hate ' people for trying to outbid me by a lot so don't be hatefull if someone plays 0.01 on you. I was doing something similar, till I moved, and as there were a few competitors my orders stopped getting filled, so I just canceled the orders.
Tesal	Posted - 2009.06.21 16:52:00 - [25] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Taedrin By matching their price, their orders keep moving, albeit at a slower pace. Incorrect. Their order always processes first. You only get to sell your first unit when their order is completely gone. Older orders take precedence over younger orders. There is no "you sell some, I sell some" in the case of evenly priced orders. Unless you do a 30 day order over a 90 day order.
Black Mack	Posted - 2009.06.21 17:38:00 - [26] Originally by: Endurance Vile Originally by: Black Mack Edited by: Black Mack on 21/06/2009 00:09:06 In fact, a manufacturer had dumped their stock onto me, completely filling my order. Being a t1 item, this module is very fast to manufacture. ? If this was the 100mn microwarpdrives in dodoxie them I'm afraid you got unlucky. I've been accumulating then for about two weeks as they were 150k below their reprocessing value. I stopped when they reached 50k short but was holding on to them until I finished scrapmetal processing. I had accumulated about 600 then 180 were listed at scrap price and I need the liquid cash as I have just started trading so filled that and then a couple of hours later about the same again at just over 100k over scrap price. I even managed to sell 3 on the market for 1 million but things are back to normal now. I actually wondered what the hell was going on. That's right, you were the dirty punk that dumped on me! You a**hole! No worries, I had it coming. My research on the item was sloppy, and I didn't test the market before-hand. It was an impulse manipulation, and if you hadn't dumped on me, someone else would have. I don't plan on ever giving you so much money again, however
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising	Posted - 2009.06.21 18:54:00 - [27] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 21/06/2009 18:58:20 I need a suggestion about countering an hard down-rebater. Ie I finally find a nice niche and tested it for a week. So, I actually produced the item as I could not get enough even by buying everything with buy orders. I put it at say 3.4M. Shortly after a guy puts a mega-trillion-fantastillion sell order at 3.2M (it'll take like 1 month before all that stuff is gone). I try 0.01ing it and the guy puts another ziriziribilion sell order at 3.0M. Do I have to take my few thousands items and slap them in my.... BEEP or is here something I can do?
glas mir Reaction Scientific	Posted - 2009.06.22 00:42:00 - [28] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha I need a suggestion about countering an hard down-rebater. ouch. Maybe move them to a different region. Buying him out may be an option if he is selling at a loss. Or trying to get him to go even lower then buying him out.
Black Mack	Posted - 2009.06.23 00:06:00 - [29] For him to have so many items, he's probably been stockpiling for a while. Depending on how he was able to acquire this item, he may be able to make a profit at a lower price point than you can, or he may feel that forcing off a competitor is worth selling at a loss for a while. Perhaps you could try forcing him down lower, then purchasing some of his stock for cheap. You probably can't afford to purchase all of it, but you can create a nice little stockpile of your own, preparing for your turn to own the market. Your only other options that I see are to (a) move to a different system or region, or (b) wait them out.


Pages: [1] :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.