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CSM7 Summit Topic: Industry & Mining

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Skorpynekomimi 195	Posted - 2012.05.19 03:58:00 - [31] - Quote - Give an incentive to mine at the keyboard, beyond 'I might get ganked'. - More disincentives to suicide ganking; it's cheap cowardly pvp. - Continue to remove bots. I like the new mineral prices. - Add a 'units sold in the last X units of time' function in the market, so it's easier to find what to make.
Valerie Valate Church of The Crimson Saviour 106	Posted - 2012.05.19 06:41:00 - [32] - Quote advanced mass production/ advanced laboratory operation, change to +2 slots per skill level, so you end up with 16 max. Because 11 is an awkward number. Industry inside a corporation needs corporate roles looked at. someone who only needs to be able to manufacture some ammunition, shouldn't need to have the corporate roles, POS roles and access that allow them to drunkenly/maliciously/accidentally screw up some far more important things involving assembly arrays and corporate hangar contents. "boss, i got drunk and accidentally cancelled a supercap job when i was trying to deliver 10000 rounds of EMP S. sorry :(" should be preventable. Even something like industry divisions, would go a long way to help with this. Mining ships, if any more defences are required, then, they should have more hull hp, a lot more, at the penalty of not being able to fit hull reps. Concept of difficult to destroy completely, but expensive to repair if damaged.
Revolution Rising Gentlemen of Better Ilk 325	Posted - 2012.05.19 06:57:00 - [33] - Quote Frankly there are PLENTY of ideas up on these forums already. Put t2 minerals into 0.0 - as a balance feature as well as allowing mining corps obvious game progression, CONSIDER putting high end minerals in low-sec. Fix Spodzilla in the grav sites in 0.0. If a PVP player goes to make some money 1) he doesn't need a scan probe launcher to find a site he just hits his scan button. By comparison miners need to scan down a grav site. 2) He can complete the site ON HIS OWN IN MINUTES. By comparison it takes a group of 10 guys at least a day minimum to mine the site out and most of that is WASTED EFFORT because of spodzilla in the belt - no belt will respawn until the old one is gone. As a result people cherry pick and it makes the entire situation useless for others who wish to mine as a social or money making venture because they then have to mine spodumain for 3 days. Fix Industrial queueing for research, invention and production. There has to be a better way than logging on once every 2 hours to change jobs. Put some in-game tools in place to allow mining corps to PAY THEIR MINERS AUTOMATICALLY - If I want to buy trit from my miners at -10% jita price, I should be able to set those prices and accept ore AUTOMATICALLY. We should not be spending HOURS dealing with contracts and working out each contract and seeing if it's accurate or not. Throw the ore into a specified hangar, pay the miner from a specified wallet. Deal done. Why is this so hard? Consider putting corp contracts and mining payouts in place in your new modular POS's - some people don't HAVE stations to do this in - they have a POS and a Rorqual. Give us a ***** break - and i'm dead serious in this point. You don't give a *** thought to what happens to industry every time you make a change to the game. POS Fuel prices have almost doubled since PI came in, t3 BC's ganking in empire without any HP buffs to transports or freighters. Some peoples' lives in-game are made a living hell every time you do this **. CSM7 Skype Leak
Lord Zim 658	Posted - 2012.05.19 08:07:00 - [34] - Quote Revolution Rising wrote: thereby increasing the income gap between people that have and have not got t2 bpo's. [...] T2 BPO's - Seriously, you guys are full of so much **** on this issue. You know, it's never good to envy someone for no good reason.
Anshu Zephyran Children of Armok Ushra'Khan 7	Posted - 2012.05.19 08:25:00 - [35] - Quote I posted my ideas on my blog, so I'll just summarize here and assume that people who want the details can click the link. Merge Mining Barge and ORE Industrial skills. Mining barges are industrial ships made by ORE, right? Make hull repair modules not-worthless. In fact, make them a bit better than armor reps, since you'll be in hull by the time you turn them on. Redo the size (in m3) of Strips and mining crystals to something sane and consistent. Introduce new modules, new drones, and new anchorable structures to give players more tools and options Make the mining barges less ****, and make them all useful. The Procurer can be the fast and nimble one that mines quickly; the Covetor the big, tough, slow one that can park in a belt and not move; and the Retriever can be the middling one, slower than the Procurer but not as tough as the Covetor.
Nevigrofnu Mrots 8	Posted - 2012.05.19 09:16:00 - [36] - Quote Anshu Zephyran wrote: Merge Mining Barge and ORE Industrial skills. Mining barges are industrial ships made by ORE, right? this makes 100% sense, but maybe is better on the balance ships topic
Tarkelan ARES Unlimited 0	Posted - 2012.05.19 10:05:00 - [37] - Quote The ores in lowsec need a change to make them more profitable. So maybe adjust the mineral mix of lowsec ores might be a solution. Remove T2 BPOs. They are just to powerful and keep in mind that CCP made some really bad moves when they were introduced. Keep track of the changes to the acquire datacores and adjust the system if needed. The production and science related UIs could use some love to lower the amounts of clicks to get something runing.
Lord Zim 659	Posted - 2012.05.19 10:06:00 - [38] - Quote Tarkelan wrote: Remove T2 BPOs. They are just to powerful and keep in mind that CCP made some really bad moves when they were introduced. Says who?
Tarkelan ARES Unlimited 0	Posted - 2012.05.19 10:28:00 - [39] - Quote It's related to a T20 years ago and a certain lottery. So CCP was involved long, long ago. BPOs can be researched to use less recources and time. The invention system can do similar things with specific items which are far more expensive than the inital research on a BPO in the long run. So remove the T2 BPOs or skip invention and sell the T2 BPOs by NPC to everyone who wants them. Could be a nice ISK sink.
Lord Zim 659	Posted - 2012.05.19 10:32:00 - [40] - Quote Tarkelan wrote: It's related to a T20 years ago and a certain lottery. So CCP was involved long, long ago. BPOs can be researched to use less recources and time. The invention system can do similar things with specific items which are far more expensive than the inital research on a BPO in the long run. So remove the T2 BPOs or skip invention and sell the T2 BPOs by NPC to everyone who wants them. Could be a nice ISK sink. So you're pulling the T20 card to get something removed from the game when it's been shown repeatedly that what you gain in material usage in most markets, inventors gain in production speed, which means that in most markets the price limiting factor isn't the BPO owners, but the people inventing and producing off of BPCs.

Rengerel en Distel Amarr Science and Industry 87	Posted - 2012.05.19 12:39:00 - [41] - Quote T2 BPOs Could they not just have a list of BPCs that have BPO equivalents, and simply make those ME/PE 0? So if you invent a BPC which has a T2 BPO out there, it's 0/0 instead of -4/-4 automatically. That still gives the owner of the BPOs which researched them an advantage, but not so large of one that there can't be some play. Industrials It would be nice for a mid-sized freighter. Something in the 100-200k m3 range. Would be useful for WHs, instead of needing fleets of itty5s. It would be more of the bread and butter haulers, without the need of the bonuses that an Orca or a jump freighter provides. POS/Corp Roles I know they say they've got plans for an overhaul, but it's really a critical issue that's been delayed too long. In my opinion, it's enough of an issue to be a major feature in the winter expansion.
Lord Zim 659	Posted - 2012.05.19 12:49:00 - [42] - Quote Rengerel en Distel wrote: T2 BPOs Could they not just have a list of BPCs that have BPO equivalents, and simply make those ME/PE 0? So if you invent a BPC which has a T2 BPO out there, it's 0/0 instead of -4/-4 automatically. That still gives the owner of the BPOs which researched them an advantage, but not so large of one that there can't be some play. People producing from T2 BPOs can't compete with the quantity of people producing from BPCs.
Aleena Doran Squaddies 26	Posted - 2012.05.19 13:07:00 - [43] - Quote "People producing from T2 BPOs can't compete with the quantity of people producing from BPCs" Unfortunately the above statement is just not true. As an example do a search in contracts for veldspar T2 mining crystal BPCs. You will see many BPCs with stats something like Runs=10 Material=-4 Productivity=-4. You will also see some with stats like Runs=100 Material=90 Productivity = 100 ... guess which BPC was produced by invention and which from a BPO. The market is saturated by BPO owners and you loose isk attempting to produce T2 mining crystals by invention. I know - I tried.
Lord Zim 659	Posted - 2012.05.19 13:11:00 - [44] - Quote So that's the only market T2 BPO owners can compete with people who manufacture from BPCs? Mining crystals?
Eidric Shadows of HyperSpace Wormholes Holders 17	Posted - 2012.05.19 15:24:00 - [45] - Quote Here is my proposal\research on mining, I've decided to put in in separate thread since it is fairly large.
Traidir Hedion University Amarr Empire 17	Posted - 2012.05.19 16:50:00 - [46] - Quote Fun is crafting a positive outcomes through a sequence of critical decisions. In mining, the positive outcome is "you get ore" or "you get lotsa ore". Currently the "critical decisions" are all made before you go mining (how to fit your ship, where to mine, what to mine). During the actual mining, unless there is interference from others, there are no critical decisions (i.e. press f1, done), which is exactly why the "mining" isn't fun. Thus, to make the mining itself "fun", we need to add "critical decisions" to the mining process. So what could these choices be? The key is to come up with activities that reward active thinking: Calibrating mining lasers to improve yield Targeted sweet spots on asteroids (nuggets of high yield ore?) Breaking asteroids apart in a special sequence in order to access deep veins of more valuable ore without destroying it Non-npc hazards to be defended against or avoided, such as dust, collisions, and radiation Cooperative gameplay, where two or more players must coordinate efforts to achieve an outcome Here's a couple of possible examples embodying some of these ideas: Alice and Bob fly into an asteroid field. They both target the same asteroid and activate special scanners to analyze the rock's composition. At this point a new "Analysis" window opens for them both, similar to the Planetary Interaction view. Together, Alice and Bob use a (depth limited, resolution limited) 3D heat map of the asteroid to plan how to slice up the asteroid for maximum yield. Like cutting diamonds, each stroke of the mining lasers must be carefully placed to avoid destroying up the "nuggets" of high yield ore. For this, accurate scanning skills are critical, as are precision mining laser skills. Alice is a skilled scanner and marks positions for the lasers to cut, while Bob is a surgeon with the mining laser who makes each cut with good accuracy. Together they recover 70% of the nuggets undamaged. For their time and effort, they receive what is effectively "compressed ore", meaning players skilled at this type of mining can pull in a much more valuable load with the same cargo space. If they had taken more time and been slightly more cautious with their cuts, they could have gotten an 80% yield, but, in this field, there's plenty of rocks to be had and it was more cost effective to move quickly. Later, they encounter a tricky asteroid with pockets of explosive material within. Concerned that an accidental explosion from a stray cut might might set off a chain reaction, destroying the asteroid, they call in their friend Charlie, who specializes in using tractor beams to manipulate sections of rock. After he warps in, Charlie simply locks onto the same asteroid and activates his own special scanner. With Charlie's tractor beams directed toward the dangerous areas, they proceed with the extraction. A scanning error causes a beam to slice through an explosive section, fortunately Charlie's tractor beam aperture is large enough to encompass the explosion, redirecting the debris away from the reset of the asteroid, minimizing the damage. In this scenario, paired tractor beams might also be able to "pull" the rocks apart as an alternative to mining lasers. While somewhat "instanced" by the use of an "Analysis Window", other parties can still participate in the mini-sandbox by bringing in their own scanners. Indeed, they could even "compete" or "grief" by making their own cuts.
Reinheart Novan Invictus Mortalitus Paradox Initiative 0	Posted - 2012.05.19 18:27:00 - [47] - Quote The current mining mechanic is perfectly ok as far as I'm concerned. I mine ATK for a an hour ot two weeknights and several hours on the weekends. I use that time to go through my spreadsheets to determine the margins for what to produce, manage my production lines and the rest of those activities we need to do. I am scanning to maximise my yeilds and cherry picking the roids for the production I am doing plenty enough to feel engaged as it is.These ideas that I want to be clicking constantly to enjoy myself couldn't be further from the truth. If I'm having a night I feel the need for that sort of thing I'll do plexes or missions. On datacores, if the issue was passive income, why not just have made them put out RP on missions only. No amount of putting stuff into FW stores is going to make me go into FW so instead I'll have to buy them and see how that affects the bottom line/marks ups. Personally I find PVP boring, you spend ages getting a ship ready then wander around for hours looking for fights and get killed in minutes. While it's great people do enjoy that, I do not. I would suggest that I am not alone. Any changes should support the sandbox and let us decide what activities we wish to do not force us into any particular space (that is not null, lo or highsec) or particular activities.
Scatim Helicon GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 376	Posted - 2012.05.19 18:45:00 - [48] - Quote Reinheart Novan wrote: The current mining mechanic is perfectly ok as far as I'm concerned. I mine ATK for a an hour ot two weeknights and several hours on the weekends. I use that time to go through my spreadsheets to determine the margins for what to produce, manage my production lines and the rest of those activities we need to do. I am scanning to maximise my yeilds and cherry picking the roids for the production I am doing plenty enough to feel engaged as it is.These ideas that I want to be clicking constantly to enjoy myself couldn't be further from the truth. If I'm having a night I feel the need for that sort of thing I'll do plexes or missions. The fact that you are concentrating on spreadsheets and a bunch of other things at the same time as cycling your mining lasers, because the activity is so passive that you have to dedicate minimal attention to it, isn't exactly helping your argument. Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge **.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006 ~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever.
Lord Zim 662	Posted - 2012.05.19 18:51:00 - [49] - Quote Reinheart Novan wrote: Personally I find PVP boring, you spend ages getting a ship ready then wander around for hours looking for fights and get killed in minutes. While it's great people do enjoy that, I do not. I would suggest that I am not alone. Any changes should support the sandbox and let us decide what activities we wish to do not force us into any particular space (that is not null, lo or highsec) or particular activities. How about you make an alliance with people who will do this "fighting" for you, if you find it so boring?
Avila Cracko 363	Posted - 2012.05.19 19:47:00 - [50] - Quote Ill leave this here: Mining changes with anti-botting measures: Quote: - make belts so that you must scan them... (botts can't do scanning very well, and it will be more involving)... (maybe add some more statics on scans too so that you must have brain to see its only statics) - static belts have only very small roids for new players... (strips dont have use if it) - when you left scanned belt, after cca 5 minutes belt is gone... you must scan again... (so that botters cant scan all belts in the morning and have botts mining them all day long) - make fleeting with other players and making real ops more rewarding then solo mining (maybe make orca/rorq boost better) - botts dont fleet - Boost rats, give them scram and EW (make them smarter) - botts have more problems with defending themself then real people, and it would be more involving. And, what you said, scanned belts need to be bigger then grav sites. Maybe, make grav sites so stay like they are, with better ores, but harder to scan down then ordinary belts. (belts must not be too easy to scan - you must use probes (probing is now in noobs career missions so even noobs know how to probe things)) truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Lord Zim 662	Posted - 2012.05.19 20:00:00 - [51] - Quote Avila Cracko wrote: - make belts so that you must scan them... (botts can't do scanning very well, and it will be more involving)... (maybe add some more statics on scans too so that you must have brain to see its only statics) My, my, aren't you cute and naive?
Reinheart Novan Invictus Mortalitus Paradox Initiative 1	Posted - 2012.05.19 20:42:00 - [52] - Quote Lord Zim wrote: Reinheart Novan wrote: Personally I find PVP boring, you spend ages getting a ship ready then wander around for hours looking for fights and get killed in minutes. While it's great people do enjoy that, I do not. I would suggest that I am not alone. Any changes should support the sandbox and let us decide what activities we wish to do not force us into any particular space (that is not null, lo or highsec) or particular activities. How about you make an alliance with people who will do this "fighting" for you, if you find it so boring? Our Corp and alliance has plenty of people that do that, for which I am grateful, as I'm sure they are for what the Industrial members do. That's the great thing with Eve that each can do what they enjoy the most without being shoehorned into having to toddle off and do the things they do want to do. I'm merely reinforcing that aspect needs to be retained in whatever we changes and updates go through. On that I feel the new ally changes coming through will be great for the small highsec industry corps as again it supports those aspects.
Reinheart Novan Invictus Mortalitus Paradox Initiative 1	Posted - 2012.05.19 20:52:00 - [53] - Quote Scatim Helicon wrote: Reinheart Novan wrote: The current mining mechanic is perfectly ok as far as I'm concerned. I mine ATK for a an hour ot two weeknights and several hours on the weekends. I use that time to go through my spreadsheets to determine the margins for what to produce, manage my production lines and the rest of those activities we need to do. I am scanning to maximise my yeilds and cherry picking the roids for the production I am doing plenty enough to feel engaged as it is.These ideas that I want to be clicking constantly to enjoy myself couldn't be further from the truth. If I'm having a night I feel the need for that sort of thing I'll do plexes or missions. The fact that you are concentrating on spreadsheets and a bunch of other things at the same time as cycling your mining lasers, because the activity is so passive that you have to dedicate minimal attention to it, isn't exactly helping your argument. My argument is, I feel there is nothing wrong with the make up of mining. Making sure I'm not running my lasers for a full cycle when that roid only has 5% of a cycles worth of ore left, that I'm mining the minerals I need the most for my production lines and that those production lines are running the right things is keyed in with that acitivity. After all the CSM has asked here for feedback. I have provided mine. I'm sure they'll look at all the posts and push what is the consensus. At least now I have put my tuppence in made my contribution.
Revolution Rising Gentlemen of Better Ilk 325	Posted - 2012.05.20 11:25:00 - [54] - Quote Yeah I have zero issue with the mining mechanic itself, it allows for people to socialise and do other things while they mine - like build queues, invention and planning - mining shouldn't NEED to be a "busy" exercise. In fact many people like it currently BECAUSE it's not busy and they can do it and relax while they do it. CSM7 Skype Leak
Scatim Helicon GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 380	Posted - 2012.05.20 22:37:00 - [55] - Quote Revolution Rising wrote: Yeah I have zero issue with the mining mechanic itself, it allows for people to socialise and do other things while they mine - like build queues, invention and planning - mining shouldn't NEED to be a "busy" exercise. In fact many people like it currently BECAUSE it's not busy and they can do it and relax while they do it. Like I (and Seleene) said earlier, new interactive and co-operative forms of mining should be bought in alongside the existing (passive, boring) version. Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge **.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006 ~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever.
Stigman Zuwadza Repercussus RAZOR Alliance 19	Posted - 2012.05.21 04:46:00 - [56] - Quote A few suggestions that I would personally find helpful: GÇó Show Invention Times. GÇó Providing information regarding Possible Invention Outcomes. GÇó Data Sheets: Change Their Volume. Fly safe. o7 CCP: Cloak Hunters --- CSM: Cautiously positive. CSM Summit Dec 2011 - Minutes (see page 22).
Killer Gandry V I R I I Ineluctable. 460	Posted - 2012.05.21 05:37:00 - [57] - Quote Tarkelan wrote: Remove T2 BPOs. They are just to powerful and keep in mind that CCP made some really bad moves when they were introduced. . Don't try to talk with the big boys by sounding like a whiney little kid. Anyone who still believes that T2 BPO's are just too powerfull has no idea of invention / industry and shouldn't even attempt to bulge into a discussion about topics they clearly aren't cut out for.
Aleena Doran Squaddies 29	Posted - 2012.05.21 12:43:00 - [58] - Quote "Don't try to talk with the big boys by sounding like a whiney little kid." Dude, you're not helping your case. While it could be argued that EVE was never meant to be fair, and that the possession of T2 BPOs by the 'big boys' is perfectly consistent with that, EVE does suffer from a perception that gameplay and resources are dominated by established players ('big boys'?). The reality of this perception is detrimental to new player recruitment and retention. A reasoned argument on why T2 BPOs ought to be retained would be more enlightening.
Lord Zim 681	Posted - 2012.05.21 13:40:00 - [59] - Quote Aleena Doran wrote: A reasoned argument on why T2 BPOs ought to be retained would be more enlightening. T2 BPOs can, in most markets, be outperformed in volume by inventers. There's no point in fiddling with them just because "some people" can't see past their own jealousy.
Killer Gandry V I R I I Ineluctable. 460	Posted - 2012.05.21 13:46:00 - [60] - Quote Aleena Doran wrote: A reasoned argument on why T2 BPOs ought to be retained would be more enlightening. I wish I could see it all like you do. Sadly enough I can't put my head up my arse that far. Because if you actually would have done some research and seen the rest of my comment you already saw my arguementation. Anyone who believes that having a T2 BPO makes you out perform a serious inventor / builder is more than just diluded. If you really want to outperform a serious inventor/builder you need to have more than just 1 or 2 T2BPO's of the same item.



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