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Traidir
Hedion University Amarr Empire
24
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Posted - 2012.05.29 10:36:00 -
[91] - Quote
Malcanis wrote: The second is more complex but more efficient: you use an asteroid scanner* to see those veins of ore, and you target your MLs on the asteroid to chew through to get the good stuff. The angle and focus with which you target your MLs determines how efficiently you can do this (ie: how much ore you can get while mining out as little "dead rock" as possible. That sounds like an excellent (and very familiar idea).
Some other things to consider: Use of tractor beams and explosives to tear apart rocks (along with a scanner for "seeing" fracture lines). Calibration of mining laser cut "depth". Limited "image resolution" and "scan depth" of scanners. Booby traps (mercoxit creating gas clouds if you cut into the wrong thing for example). Specific patterns and shapes of "veins" in the rocks for each type of asteroid (more experienced players have the advantage of knowing how the veins (and traps) are likely to appear within the rock, despite scanner depth/resolution limitations) Some examples of possible vein shapes: lightning shapes, nuggets, tapered cylinders, sheets, crystals... This would also give a great deal of variety to the challenge of ore extraction for the different asteroid types.
Almost all of these can be based on skills already in game (e.g. Astrogeology for scanning, Mining and its various Specializations for depth calibration and cut precision, Graviton Physics for tractor beam attenuation, ect...). |
Prince Kobol
592
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Posted - 2012.05.29 12:02:00 -
[92] - Quote
Let cut the BS and get straight to the point.
We all know that most if not all the CSM only care about Indy in regards how it affects them in null.
So how about this.
Why not just make so you can only manufacture T2 ships and mods in Sov Space. Whilst we are at it why not just remove all ore expect veld out of high sec?
After all isn't this what you really want?
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Revolution Rising
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
332
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Posted - 2012.05.30 06:56:00 -
[93] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:Let cut the BS and get straight to the point.
We all know that most if not all the CSM only care about Indy in regards how it affects them in null.
So how about this.
Why not just make so you can only manufacture T2 ships and mods in Sov Space. Whilst we are at it why not just remove all ore expect veld out of high sec?
After all isn't this what you really want?
Well.. the.. wait.. what ?
Dude have you even spoken to any of the CSM members? MOST of them are indy guys or at least interested in some serious change to indy this time around.
I would've thought mittani being replaced by seleene would've made some impact in your conscioousness along this thought process.
I guess not.
If the conversations I've had over the past 6 months or more with Seleene and others mean anything I would be expecting a BONUS to invention in 0.0, t2 mining of some kind, improved mining mechanics - spodumain rocks for 3 days is no way to mine, possibly CCP will start along the lines of POS reinvention over the next year.
If you want something in the CSM to imrpove, you need to be active in this arena. I can't even understand people that come on and rage about their imagined perceptions like this.
If you want to rage at someone about datacores, rage at Soundwave. I don't understand how mining with guns is bad, but mining for datacores with guns is good personally. So I would agree with that if that was the point of your awfully constructed post. CSM7 Skype Leak
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Revolution Rising
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
332
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Posted - 2012.05.30 07:14:00 -
[94] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:The basic problem with mining is that the actual act of mining is incredibly dull. When it becomes something that draws attention to the screen rather than repels it, a lot of problems with mining go away.
To make mining actually some kind of fun, you need to make it a mental challenge. In fact you need to make it actual gameplay, and historically, CCP have been very bad at gameplay.
Still, what if the actual act of mining were completely different to how it is now? Consider this possibility:
Each asteroid is represented as a 3-dimensional object, with veins of ore ruunning through it in a semi-random, non repeating way (ie: unpredictably). The concentration of ore varies from, say, 10-33% of the rock by volume. There are two way you can mine such an asteroid.
The first is the simplest: to lock onto the rock, activate your mining laser and let it chew through the entire rock, as we do at present. This will eventually extract all the ore in the asteroid in the time it takes your ML to pulverize the entire thing*.
The second is more complex but more efficient: you use an asteroid scanner* to see those veins of ore, and you target your MLs on the asteroid to chew through to get the good stuff. The angle and focus with which you target your MLs determines how efficiently you can do this (ie: how much ore you can get while mining out as little "dead rock" as possible.
On some rocks, this will be a fairly simple puzzle; on others, it will be very tricky to get optimum yield. Thus we can reward actual player intelligence and skill, whilst still leaving the possibility of making some ISK being semi-AFK and studying for exams or whatever (many miners seem to be deeply attached to this playstyle). By procedurally generating the ore veins every time the rock respawns, we can make them significantly hard to macro efficiently; bots will almost certainly "mine dumb" and just chew through the whole rock. Thus smart human players actually playing the game will be able to gain a significant advantage (3-10x) over macro bots if they choose to. Since their attention will actually be directed at the screen, they can also maintain situation awareness and all the safety benefits that entails.
*We will assume that mining lasers automatically filter out and eject as space-dust the "dead rock", with only the ore being deposited.
*Additionally, all ORE vessels have asteroid-scanning capability built in to the ship, with no need to add an asteroid scanner. Non-specialised mining ships like Ospreys and Rokhs have to give up a midslot or "mine dumb".
I love this idea, however..
tbh, I'm far more interested in the low hanging fruit at the moment. I'm all for ADDED bonuses to mining based on such systems in the future, as long as it doesn't interfer with current gameplay. Looking out for reds in 0.0 while trying to solve a puzzle is going to be harsh to say the least.
Sometimes I just want to go to the kitchen and grab a coffee while my lasers run too... I don't want to stop mining to do this.
Sometimes I need to work out corp contracts while I'm mining.
Sometimes I just want to chat to others while mining.
I don't want these types of gameplay and added gameplay to be effected by puzzle games that are unnecessary to the current system.
If it is just an ADDED system, whereby I can grab more yield if I'm concentrating, fine.
I would hate to see CCP just run with one part of this idea and take out current gameplay.
CCP don't have a good track record of gameplay change before this last expansion, sometimes it's best to keep it simple with them ;)
CSM7 Skype Leak
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4002
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Posted - 2012.05.30 15:58:00 -
[95] - Quote
In other words, you want to just PUSH BUTAN RECEIVE ORE, and you don't want anything to affect the yield of that.
Do we really have to explain comparative advantage all over again? /o\ Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
Dex Nederland
Lai Dai Infinity Systems The Fourth District
45
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Posted - 2012.06.01 04:10:00 -
[96] - Quote
Player Awareness - Linking Manufacturing to the Market
Inferno introduced price estimations (based on local market) into all hangars and items, it would be awesome to extend this to the manufacturing "preview" window. Even the most basic T1 module is built using items that have a market value. Before accepting the run, cost of the facility and lose of items, anyone should be able to easily see how much ISK they can expect to earn (or lose!) based on the current market without relying on out-game utilities (eve-central, battleclinic, spreadsheets etc).
Mitigate the "If I mine it, it is free" mindset by educating them as they step through the process of building an item.
*Warning: may cause the price of T1 items to rise to exceed mineral cost!
Cooperative Industry - Project Management Tools
There is no simple solution to encouraging miners, researchers, and manufacturers to group up and cooperate. It is very possible to engage in all of those activities solo in a non-player corp and not encounter any downsides. The primary reason to form a player corp for industrialist is the ability to setup starbases for more readily available Material Research & Copy slots.
Introduce straight forward, non-time intensive tools that make cooperative corporate industry easier as part of having a corporation could be very useful. It might include standing contracts that refresh when filled, "programmable" project trees, etc. Lai Dai Infinity Systems |
Kreeia Dgore
EntroPrelatial Industria T A B O O
31
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Posted - 2012.06.01 11:20:00 -
[97] - Quote
No big surprise here: boost exhumers tanking capability. Destroyers, and the minnie one in particular, have been boosted in terms of DPS. The balance existing until that moment was broken when every noob with lousy equipment is able to gank any exhumer, no matter how well is it tanked. I want nothing else than boosting their defence capabilities by the same % the destroyers got.
Other than that, mining should be more fun. I find that folks are still happy mining (=doing activity that was boring 9 years ago and didn't improve ever since) an unpleasant evidence of higher incidence of masochists in general population in the last years. Sorry, I just don't see any other way of looking at it. |
Nevryn Takis
University of Caille Gallente Federation
15
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Posted - 2012.06.01 17:59:00 -
[98] - Quote
Mining is boring .. we all know that.. lots of people (including me) have made proposals ove rthe years to fix it .. they all get ignored so we're now in the positiion(thanks to the goons) that mining is dead as a profession.. Am I going to risk my tanked 300m hulk in high sec when it can be reduced to ash is 6 seconds by 3 1.5m fit catalysts or thrashers.. No chance.. Any competant player can run a l3 mission and replace said catalyst/thrasher in 20 minutes.. Replacing the hulk thats 30 hours running L4 missions .. For the casual player who has a couple of hours a night to play thats just not worth doing ... risk/vs reward ...broken Am I likewise going to risk a 150m mack that can't tank for toffee no matter how you fit it to mine Ice to supply a pos .. no chance With all the rest of the changes theres a lot of people who are now seriosuly considering un-subbing.. Perhaps then ccp and goons will get the message Flame me all you like and talk about tears .. it'll just make the decision easier... |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1070
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Posted - 2012.06.01 22:31:00 -
[99] - Quote
If supply of minerals decreases enough from miners leaving their profession, demand will increase to the point where mining ore and ice will be well worth the hazards. If not, suicide ganking was not a real problem to begin with. |
None ofthe Above
197
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Posted - 2012.06.01 23:24:00 -
[100] - Quote
Kreeia Dgore wrote:No big surprise here: boost exhumers tanking capability. Destroyers, and the minnie one in particular, have been boosted in terms of DPS. The balance existing until that moment was broken when every noob with lousy equipment is able to gank any exhumer, no matter how well is it tanked. I want nothing else than boosting their defence capabilities by the same % the destroyers got.
Actually the Catalyst in particular, Gallente. But yes destroyers got a big boost, and also for high end ganking Tier 3 battlecruisers.
That's two pretty major buffs to ganking without a commensurate buff to its primary prey.
I recommend a boost to Mining Barge and Exhumer Powergrid and CPU so they can fit a decent tank without so much difficulty (particularly on the Retriever, Covertor based hulls).
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Lord Zim
747
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Posted - 2012.06.01 23:27:00 -
[101] - Quote
Don't forget the fact suicide ganking got a nerf in the shape of loss of insurance. |
Yukino Yuu
Zat's Affiliated Traders Originally Riotous Corps
1
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Posted - 2012.06.02 07:20:00 -
[102] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Don't forget the fact suicide ganking got a nerf in the shape of loss of insurance. yes 3x1.5mil hurts the wallet so much to alpha pop a 300mil ship but I'll give you the benefit of a doubt that this was sarcasm or only refering to the tier3 BC
anyways, I am of the mind set that there is not enough variety in the types of mining barges and exhumers that are considered viable, especially when compared to the number and variety of combat ships, which needs to be addressed.
First, similar to Gevlin's, I think that getting rid of the ship tiers like they did with the frigates in inferno and giving each ship type a clear role with pros and cons when deciding which to use would be great.
second, I think that there should be some way that miners can defend themselves until help arrives. Note that I am not talking about offensive weapons but defensive and mostly group oriented. Like a cheaper mining barge which mines less per hour that would shield other mining barges and exhumers at the expense of its own shields and armor thus protecting the more expensive mining barges and exhumers but not making miners immortal just takes longer to kill. That was just an example, other group type combos should also be considered.
Right now there is no point to fleeting up to go mine except for the good times and your just a bigger target, and even if you bring combat ships they won't be able to react fast enough to an alpha strike plus why bring combat ships when you can bring another miner which I find to be a miners mind set. There is no in-between solution. I often hear gankers and miners compared to predator and prey but right now only the gankers have many types of teeth, claws, speed, etc while the prey only have one speed, no horns, limited defensive mechanisms(dscan and local), no way to posture or group up to make a ganker/s think twice about whether or not they can pull off a kill. Another example of darwin's theory, evolve the tools to survive or go extinct. Which is why I think that group based defensive roles should be added for specialized mining ships and modules.
To sum it up, diversity in ships and their abilities
defensive type ships must have a use outside combat preferably for mining or they won't be used by a serious carebear
point is not to kill aggressors but to delay, divert, or escape
this will not make miners invulnerable, gankers will have to adapt to the situation that is all |
Lord Helghast
Intergalactic Syndicate Nulli Secunda
98
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Posted - 2012.06.08 04:53:00 -
[103] - Quote
any chance of t3 exhumers, or capital exhumers? like a rorq sized hulk :)
endgame miners need something to train for as it is currently you can prettymuch max miner characters in what ... 3 months? LAME |
Takara Mora
University of Caille Gallente Federation
56
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Posted - 2012.06.09 14:04:00 -
[104] - Quote
Hehehehe ... how about making Strip Mining Lasers do damage, webbing, and warp disruption against enemy ships?
Not copious amounts, just enough to encourage grouping up so that say 3 or 5 hulks put together, could stop and destroy a single can flipper? Might generate some fun encounters ....
Would have no impact against gankers, since there is no possible defense against alpha strikes .... unless you did something like generate a giant protective dust cloud or something ... |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
459
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Posted - 2012.06.09 15:08:00 -
[105] - Quote
Oh god yes please lets have hulks trying to aggro can flippers with their mining lasers.
I will fly a blasterthron and canflip forever. Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
Bossy Lady
Aliastra Gallente Federation
57
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Posted - 2012.06.11 01:54:00 -
[106] - Quote
Yukino Yuu wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Don't forget the fact suicide ganking got a nerf in the shape of loss of insurance. yes 3x1.5mil hurts the wallet so much to alpha pop a 300mil ship
It's dishonest to say that Catalysts "alpha pop" a Hulk. They use DPS, and can be countered with remote repping. Alpha requires tier 3 battlecruisers and those run to 100M or so with a rack of 1400mm arty fitted. Please don't muddy this thread with obvious inaccuracies.
Posting on this character because apparently some people get upset when they're asked difficult questions. M. |
Yukino Yuu
Zat's Affiliated Traders Originally Riotous Corps
2
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Posted - 2012.06.11 06:44:00 -
[107] - Quote
Bossy Lady wrote:Yukino Yuu wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Don't forget the fact suicide ganking got a nerf in the shape of loss of insurance. yes 3x1.5mil hurts the wallet so much to alpha pop a 300mil ship It's dishonest to say that Catalysts "alpha pop" a Hulk. They use DPS, and can be countered with remote repping. Alpha requires tier 3 battlecruisers and those run to 100M or so with a rack of 1400mm arty fitted. Please don't muddy this thread with obvious inaccuracies. I stand corrected. it was second hand information, I haven't gotten killed in a hulk in a long time, since I fly a covetor in WH and haven't gotten attacked yet there either. I think its still valid argument that the cost vs reward is skewed. |
Lord Zim
782
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Posted - 2012.06.11 08:11:00 -
[108] - Quote
Yukino Yuu wrote:I think its still valid argument that the cost vs reward is skewed. It is not. |
Grumpy Owly
612
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Posted - 2012.06.11 09:01:00 -
[109] - Quote
For PvP and like to encourage more of it?
Want to validate a potential Career path in GëívGëí with new income potential that is ideally designed as simply a transferance of ISK from one pilot to another?
Actually like situations where ships shoot back and "really" improve your KB resume?
You agree that pilots should adapt to challenging situations in GëívGëí where acceptance of risk is an everyday seperator of those getting ahead on the curve?
Or simply want to make GëívGëí less boring?
Support: Bounty Hunting for CSM7.
CCP Design panel wrote: "It's going to be awesome."
"It's absolutley on the list of things to do."
"We have a spaceships game, but you can't be han solo or boba fett, that's not clever."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_pLi1J9YrkM#t=1199s
Don't believe the ganker hype and lies. Theres plenty of examples about the order of difference in asset losses with soft industrials continuing to be treated as pinatas by these cowards.
Help promote the use of bounty hunting as a result. See if the criminal element like suicide gankers can adapt to a challenge for once, for years they have been acting complacently about this with this ineffectual if not "broken" mechanic, yet they will simply cry about its introduction than "man up" to a real fight or actually have a player shoot back at them.
Same with all the other tears employed about how their life is so difficult. And then they have the arrgoance and stupidity to blame the carebears for whining when concerns are raised. Typical meta interests and laziness as opposed to real skill or credibility. As such the changes being applied by CCP are long overdue and needed to readress this imbalance in the game. After all CCP do know the real stats and understand the situation here. Bounty Hunting for CSM7 |
Lord Zim
782
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Posted - 2012.06.11 09:42:00 -
[110] - Quote
While the bounty system Malcanis came up with has a lot of merit, it's not particularly related to neither industry nor mining. Wardec/crimewatch is probably the more correct avenue, and oh wait I see you've already posted it there. |
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Grumpy Owly
612
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Posted - 2012.06.11 10:12:00 -
[111] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:While the bounty system Malcanis came up with has a lot of merit, it's not particularly related to neither industry nor mining. Wardec/crimewatch is probably the more correct avenue, and oh wait I see you've already posted it there.
if suicide ganking is considered of merit to be discussed in this topic then there is no prescriptive reason for you to attempt to censor my relevant contribution regarding Bounty Hunting. Bounty Hunting for CSM7 |
Lord Zim
782
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Posted - 2012.06.11 11:34:00 -
[112] - Quote
Yes, telling you of a better thread to spam an idea in is definitely "censoring". |
Alia Gon'die
Aliastra Gallente Federation
72
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Posted - 2012.06.11 17:01:00 -
[113] - Quote
Grumpy Owly wrote:For PvP and like to encourage more of it? Or maybe an industrial focussed pilot with no real means to answer the call to arms personally against multiple PvP focussed foes who ganked you en masse? Want to validate a potential Career path in GëívGëí with new income potential that is ideally designed as simply a transferance of ISK from one pilot to another? Actually like situations where ships shoot back and "really" improve your KB resume? You agree that pilots should adapt to challenging situations in GëívGëí where acceptance of risk is an everyday seperator of those getting ahead on the curve? Or simply want to make GëívGëí less boring? Support: Bounty Hunting for CSM7. CCP Design panel wrote: "It's going to be awesome."
"It's absolutley on the list of things to do."
"We have a spaceships game, but you can't be han solo or boba fett, that's not clever."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_pLi1J9YrkM#t=1199s
Don't believe the ganker hype and lies. Theres plenty of examples about the order of difference in asset losses with soft industrials continuing to be treated as pinatas by these cowards. Plex in an afternoon anyone? Help promote the use of bounty hunting as a result. See if the criminal element like suicide gankers can adapt to a challenge for once, for years they have been acting complacently about this with this ineffectual if not "broken" mechanic, yet they will simply cry about its introduction than "man up" to a real fight or actually have a player shoot back at them. Same with all the other tears employed about how their life is so difficult. And then they have the arrgoance and stupidity to blame the carebears for whining when concerns are raised. Typical meta interests and laziness as opposed to real skill or credibility. As such the changes being applied by CCP are long overdue and needed to readress this imbalance in the game. After all CCP do know the real stats and understand the situation here.
This literally has nothing to do, at all, with industry and/or mining.
Edit: Also, reported. |
Bossy Lady
Aliastra Gallente Federation
64
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Posted - 2012.06.11 17:59:00 -
[114] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:While the bounty system Malcanis came up with has a lot of merit...
Well aren't you a little sweetcake to say so
Posting on this character because apparently some people get upset when they're asked difficult questions. M. |
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