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removing local from 0.0, introducing new ship scanning mechanic

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rubico1337	Posted - 2009.06.21 19:37:00 - [1] most people agree that local in its present forum is inadequate, but at the same time the removal of local would lead to at the least spamming of dscanner every 5 seconds, shredding the servers, here i will present an interesting idea that nerfs the ratter bots, but allows non-afk players a good degree of security. local would be set to delayed mode like it is currently in wormhole space, in addition a new scanning mechanic would be introduced new probe: subspace beacon uplink volume .1 m3 would be used in the current core probe launcher after launching a probe, the player would have a small graph appear on the UI, the graph would be scrolling at a certain speed and would display the background noise of subspace beacons. naturally because of deepspace interferences the graph would have background noise, the change on the graph due to background noise would be random, therefore any vibrations could conceivably be due to natural forces. however if a large blob entered system there would be a huge jump on the graph, showing the new activity in subspace. the amount of jump would be somewhat in proportion to the number of players in the system. so for instance a large blob would be unmistakable, but would also allow a covert ops pilot the ability to slip though unnoticed due to the combination of randomness and the other players subspace signals. one player entering system would give a bump to the receiver, but for someone to make sure that it was not due to random variations they would have to wait some time longer to gather more information. shameless hotlink of a rough descrition of how the scanner would function [/url] this mechanic fixes the local problem currently, while at the same time alows for a degree of security, while also allowing scouts in covert ops the abilty to scout and stalk large blobs without thier information glaring in local covert ops ship types would have a smaller impact on the subspace signal, here is what i propose should be the effect: covops frig: .25 impact force recon cruiser: .6 impact black ops: .1 impact (may make it usefull for once)
Pvt Public7 Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.06.22 01:47:00 - [2] I like it. --- ISK fountains ftw - Mission main
ThaDollaGenerale The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.06.22 04:05:00 - [3] I too, like it.
Grarr Dexx Amarr Corp 1 Allstars	Posted - 2009.06.22 05:02:00 - [4] So people who own the place can detect other people, but roamers can't? This favors defense. Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
DaReaper Net 7 The Last Brigade	Posted - 2009.06.22 07:30:00 - [5] Originally by: Grarr Dexx So people who own the place can detect other people, but roamers can't? This favors defense. As it should. The Defender usually has the advantage in siege warfare. Which is essentially what all conflict in eve is. There should be a counter measure like a small fleet having the ability to destroy such a beacon thus giving the advantage back to the attacker. I still don;t agree with no local in 0.0. but meh
Ausser Cybertech Industrials Agency	Posted - 2009.06.22 08:48:00 - [6] With some degree of tweaking this could become nice. Cov ops cloaked ship (and the BO) will not cause any signals - they are specialized expensive ships especially designed for that purpose (silent). There should be some kind of deployable, scannable and destroyable jammer that causes the graph just display junk (loud). So if you want to deploy you cap fleet, you deploy the jammer in the target system, and arround, to partially hide your operation and to force the foe into active investigation (to encourage active gameplay is allways a good thing). Bots need special care to hurt them hard because of the way this mechanism needs to be implemented: The moving signal pattern is generated on the client because of performance. To have the client be able to do this, the true information about ships enter/leave the system is broadcast by the node to all clients (including the bot). The bot will now just analyze these messages of the server instead of the wave pattern created in the client and cloak/logout while there is a threat in the system. If ships that fit cov ops cloak are filtered out and hidden on server side, then these might be a threat for the bot (till they enter grid, then the bot knows about them, no matter if cloaked or not). The bot also would recognize the jammer, even if this is a server side mechanism. At least the jammer would disable the bot's isk farming operation and force him to hide. Good reason to make the jammer some kind of stuff you can anchor anywhere. To learn about how bots work try to google. I've started searching for them a while ago to learn how i better can hurt them. Ignore the simple ocr style macro bots in the commercial advertisements and search the formus instead. There are scriptable bot frameworks that scan client memory istead of using ocr junk. Hard to hurt them but possible if you know how they work. I like the general idea of using some kind of mimiced wave display or spectrum graph instead of a direct and clear ship indicator/counter or the stupid pilot list in local chat.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.06.22 10:04:00 - [7] Can I point you to the size of your display? You really want to cut away so much space from your screen while doing other stuff? Making it smaller will make it unreadable. Nice idea, but I am not sure it is usable. Another thing is that it require a dedicated ship to work. No mining ship has the space to mount a probe launcher without a drastic loss in performance. Unless the probe can be launched by the smaller probe launcher mounting an extended probe launcher on a combat ship will half cripple it.
Yal XianKun Ominous Corp Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.06.22 12:47:00 - [8] If this is POS mounted, I would think this even better as it makes another target that people have to smash down. Do you go for the jump bridge (and stop movement), the cyno jammer (so you can bring in caps) or the Subspace Beacon array (and disable their ability to watch local without camping gates?)
breaky1 Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2009.06.22 16:08:00 - [9] my vote: rubico1337 for ccp dev good ideas, good presentation. with some tweaking it could be a really great solution to local
Yal XianKun Ominous Corp Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.06.23 15:55:00 - [10] Bumping as I like this!
rubico1337	Posted - 2009.06.23 22:48:00 - [11] Originally by: Venkul Mul Can I point you to the size of your display? You really want to cut away so much space from your screen while doing other stuff? Making it smaller will make it unreadable. Nice idea, but I am not sure it is usable. Another thing is that it require a dedicated ship to work. i was thinking it would be maybe slightly larger than the display of a targets ship, and maybe 2 times the length, and give the graph and the background conflicting colors so that is easily readable at a glance covops using the probe could possibly get a special bonus, enabling it to get a better idea of the number of people in system, the data would only be less garbled however, and interpreting the data would still require player skill, but im sure everyone would learn fast ;)
Loth'nwenar Caldari Carden Syndicate Cartel Syndicate	Posted - 2009.06.24 10:59:00 - [12] Bumping this up because I actually really love the idea. Could the probe/beacon not simply be launched from cargohold, to avoid fitting issues in regards to probe launchers? As it could be only 0.1m3 like the OP suggested, I can't see cargospace being a huge issue. Also, in regards to the screen space issue, I can't see it mattering a great deal. I play on a 15" screen, and as a scouty/intelligence type bloke I have a lot of stuff on my screen, i.e. a large Local window, a large Overview, two full windows of chat channels, but I wouldn't mind another thing, especially seeing as I wouldn't even need to look at Local chat anymore. Well done to the OP, fantastic idea.
Menzisu Uiru	Posted - 2009.06.24 11:41:00 - [13] Two thumbs up. Nice idea!
Ausser Cybertech Industrials Agency	Posted - 2009.06.24 11:48:00 - [14] Originally by: Venkul Mul Can I point you to the size of your display? Press CTRL+F ingame to open the fps monitor. The scan wave pattern thingy could look like this. Originally by: Yal XianKun If this is POS mounted, I would think this even better as it makes another target that people have to smash down. Do you go for the jump bridge (and stop movement), the cyno jammer (so you can bring in caps) or the Subspace Beacon array (and disable their ability to watch local without camping gates?) Pos mounted stationary scan stuff is problematic. I would prefer to have it on a ship but maybe accessible remoteley. This encourages active game play: "Operator> Scout1, a roaming gang entered our space. Go constellation <X> and investigate.". Instead of sitting arround somewhere and waiting till some array reports activity. Maybe you want to take a look on Photus 'Introduce the IFF setting' thread here in F&I forum, it focuses on how such military intel network stuff could look like without to break the game. I really love this kind of wave pattern isntead of result lists. I have it verry high on my wishlist. Looking for a way to assimilate and integrate it into the IFF, Operations & Networks stuff.
Yal XianKun Ominous Corp Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.06.24 11:53:00 - [15] Would prefer it as a POS module though, one per system, making it a good target.
Iomar Uisdean Gallente	Posted - 2009.06.24 12:48:00 - [16] This is an idea with merit. Not sure if this idea, or a variation of it would even be possible to implement. Not sure (yet) of the unintended consequences and possible exploits, and lets face it, there usually are. However, it's an idea worthy of further investigation and cordial, thoughtful and well reasoned discussion. Oh....wait.....nm.
Valkyrie Valhalla	Posted - 2009.06.24 13:08:00 - [17] So what if your just ratting and casually passing through the system when a gang of 10 pirate ships come in to the system (whitch happens quite a lot)? You have no way of knowing until they warp in and immediately drop a warp bomb on you! If local was to be removed, we still need a way of knowing the player threat. Or even better idea capture the system flag for the corp resets evey down time and every time the flag is captures only those players in the same corp can initate in PvP (Newby crops excluded), if a player that has the flag leavs the system or docks, or has their ship destroyed then the flag is reset. Seems fare to me as you have a chance of idetifiying what corp is going to try and take you out.
Valkyrie Valhalla	Posted - 2009.06.24 13:11:00 - [18] Edited by: Valkyrie Valhalla on 24/06/2009 13:11:13 As a foot note, many high sec players would prefer that PvP could be switched off and on altogether so that they could enjoy the hard work CCP has put into rats and cosmos sites etc in low sec something like a pvp switch in station doc you can activate it and then only then can people engage in pvp on you and vice versa.
Ausser Cybertech Industrials Agency	Posted - 2009.06.24 13:33:00 - [19] Originally by: Iomar Uisdean Not sure if this idea, or a variation of it would even be possible to implement. Not sure (yet) of the unintended consequences and possible exploits, and lets face it, there usually are. Implementation is easy, its primarily client side stuff, performance on the server is not affected. The server just broadcasts information about how strong the signal shall be, and maybe when to display some artefacts. The client processes these events and generates some kind of semi-random wave pattern. Not a big deal to implement. Originally by: Yal XianKun Would prefer it as a POS module though, one per system, making it a good target. Would be nice if you could show how the whole picture could look like. Allow me a quick expand on it meanwhile to see what consequences show up. Wave Pattern Scanner - POS Edition - Consequences Access If it's a pos module, then only owner corp of the pos will have access on it. Without any kind of network, then only ships in the same system will have access to it - or maybe only the user who is activley using this array while sitting in pos. The reason to kill that POS To become the pos array a valuable resource worth to attack it, we must remove the scanning probes from the model. Otherwise the pos is not a target. But now the pos thingy contributes to make the uphill fight more steep climb. Need for area coverage Since we had to remove the probes, we need lots of pos with these arrays everywhere. Game becomes more static related to movement. Most time you enter hostile/unknown territory you dont have rubico1337's intel stuff avaiable. My conclusion It would be a nerf for solo players, small corps, pirates and roaming gangs. Problems show up, it cannot be done that simple without to add more stuff to make it a working gameplay.
Dave Meltdown Capital Construction Inc.	Posted - 2009.06.24 13:37:00 - [20] It would kill 0.0, yes it would do something against the macro ratters. But its would not make 0.0 be usefull anymore, how can u earn is by ratting when u cant even know if the guy that is entering blue to you? Lets go all back missioning in empire!
Ausser Cybertech Industrials Agency	Posted - 2009.06.24 13:42:00 - [21] Originally by: Valkyrie Valhalla So what if your just ratting and casually passing through the system when a gang of 10 pirate ships come in to the system (whitch happens quite a lot)? You have no way of knowing until they warp in and immediately drop a warp bomb on you! Originally by: Valkyrie Valhalla If local was to be removed, we still need a way of knowing the player threat. That's what rubico1337 is drawing for us here. Originally by: Valkyrie Valhalla Or even better idea capture the system flag for the corp resets evey down time and every time the flag is captures only those players in the same corp can initate in PvP (Newby crops excluded), if a player that has the flag leavs the system or docks, or has their ship destroyed then the flag is reset. Seems fare to me as you have a chance of idetifiying what corp is going to try and take you out. Originally by: Valkyrie Valhalla As a foot note, many high sec players would prefer that PvP could be switched off and on altogether so that they could enjoy the hard work CCP has put into rats and cosmos sites etc in low sec something like a pvp switch in station doc you can activate it and then only then can people engage in pvp on you and vice versa. You talk about eve and rubico's wave pattern thingy?
Ausser Cybertech Industrials Agency	Posted - 2009.06.24 13:52:00 - [22] Originally by: Dave Meltdown It would kill 0.0, yes it would do something against the macro ratters. But its would not make 0.0 be usefull anymore, how can u earn is by ratting when u cant even know if the guy that is entering blue to you? Lets go all back missioning in empire! I had the same toughts. But if you combine rubico1337s wave pattern thingy with Photus IFF stuff the whole model does not show this flaw any more. Both concepts are compatible and extend eachother into a really awesome intriguing picture.
rubico1337	Posted - 2009.06.24 17:22:00 - [23] Edited by: rubico1337 on 24/06/2009 17:22:38 Originally by: Dave Meltdown It would kill 0.0, yes it would do something against the macro ratters. But its would not make 0.0 be usefull anymore, how can u earn is by ratting when u cant even know if the guy that is entering blue to you? Lets go all back missioning in empire! hmmm, maybe logistics and intel channels? those i think might help. eve shouldnt have easy button with all-knowing, instant intel like local, you should have to work together with other players to gain an advantage, this mechanic promotes that
rubico1337	Posted - 2009.06.24 17:28:00 - [24] Originally by: Yal XianKun Would prefer it as a POS module though, one per system, making it a good target. what would a static structure promote? it would just devolve into gangs bashing down the structure every time it spawned, which is exactly what we need in game, more static things to shoot at for hours. now we can do it in EVERY system!
Ausser Cybertech Industrials Agency	Posted - 2009.06.24 17:39:00 - [25] Originally by: rubico1337 Edited by: rubico1337 on 24/06/2009 17:22:38 Originally by: Dave Meltdown It would kill 0.0, yes it would do something against the macro ratters. But its would not make 0.0 be usefull anymore, how can u earn is by ratting when u cant even know if the guy that is entering blue to you? Lets go all back missioning in empire! hmmm, maybe logistics and intel channels? those i think might help. eve shouldnt have easy button with all-knowing, instant intel like local, you should have to work together with other players to gain an advantage, this mechanic promotes that Aya, teamwork should be encouraged. But here teamwork seems to fail. Itel channel will not help, ppl will not anounce each time they enter a system, and asking each time you see something unusual shows to up in the wave pattern isnt a solution too. You are dead till you get answer, so you will hide each time - even if its just a blue. It skews gameplay. Having Friend / Foe identification isnt that bad. It shows you when a friend enters, but is silent when foe enters. So you still never can be sure if you just had some random fluctuation or if a foe arrived. But at least you know it wasnt a friend. If both, a friend and a foe enter at the same time, you might get into trouble. The arrival of the friend might hide the arrival of the foe. Nice chance for timing tactics at gates.
rubico1337	Posted - 2009.06.24 18:06:00 - [26] Originally by: Ausser Aya, teamwork should be encouraged. But here teamwork seems to fail. Itel channel will not help, ppl will not anounce each time they enter a system, and asking each time you see something unusual shows to up in the wave pattern isnt a solution too. You are dead till you get answer, so you will hide each time - even if its just a blue. if a solo player decides to rat in unsecured 0.0 without friends around then he should pay the price of the possibility of being ganked by a solo roamer. game mechanics should provide the tools to gain an advantage or safety, they should not put them out there for free on a silver platter. the mechanic encourages players work together to provide mutual defense of each other(teamwork is fun!). and dont forget you can always use directional scanner
Ausser Cybertech Industrials Agency	Posted - 2009.06.24 18:16:00 - [27] I agree regards to teamwork. If someone gets spanked without to prepare to spank the spankers then its fate. Hmm... the odd is the directional scanner... or better: the odd is me & the directional scanner & the fact i would like to have probes dont show up on it. I'm just concerned - not about to make the game too hard - but to make the game too unplayable (in this special case).
Yal XianKun Ominous Corp Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.06.25 11:19:00 - [28] Originally by: rubico1337 Originally by: Yal XianKun Would prefer it as a POS module though, one per system, making it a good target. what would a static structure promote? it would just devolve into gangs bashing down the structure every time it spawned, which is exactly what we need in game, more static things to shoot at for hours. now we can do it in EVERY system! I assume we're saying that this is the case only in 0.0 where Concord can't be right? And that you still get local in low and high sec? So a POS module makes sense. Sure, there would be ship-based scanners too, but you'd want the POS module so that your fleet isn't totally dependent on scouts. Sov 3 to get etc would make it an important thing to set up. As to smashing down hours on a scanner, why would it be hours? Scanners are sensitive things, once you get through the shields it might be like paper. Also makes an obvious target for Covert Ops ships.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.06.25 11:54:00 - [29] Originally by: Ausser Originally by: Venkul Mul Can I point you to the size of your display? Press CTRL+F ingame to open the fps monitor. The scan wave pattern thingy could look like this. Have you looked how many seconds of data are displayed in that monitor? To be useful the monitor should display several minutes, not some seconds. If it display only some second you don't have any base to check how signal activity has changed and the monitor is useless. Then there is the "little" problem that the monitor should display a value that could vary from "1 frigate size signal" to "20 titans, 50 other capitals and some hundred support ships", not something that can be compressed in a minuscule cm display.
silken mouth Gallente Core Genes Applied Technologies	Posted - 2009.06.25 12:14:00 - [30] i like the idea. i'd like to see it as: 1. a probe, requires a launcher and times out 2. a anchorable structure, requires anchoring and appears as warable beacon on overview 3. a pos structure, which we already have and which are bought back by npc right now. regarding iff, if you see the spike, say hello in local, no reply means it is hostile....

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