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Forcerix Dragoon
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2009.06.23 16:53:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Forcerix Dragoon on 23/06/2009 16:54:28
Originally by: Xeracon Should cap injectors be nerfed?
Active tanks are uncommon as it is due to cap reliancy and general ineffectiveness in high DPS situations...Nerfing cap injectors would be the nail in the coffin.
Edit: It has probably been said before, but as shield tankers must sacrifice EWar mods to get a good tank, armour tankers must sacrifice damage mods to do the same...
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John Blackthorn
Foundation Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.06.23 17:17:00 -
[32]
"What is wrong with HAMs?" I find two issues with HAM's. There power grid is more than heavy launchers. I wanted to fit ham's on my huggin but they won't fit without a major adjustment to my ship setup.
The second issie with HAM's is they have no better signature radius than heavy missels.
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Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.06.23 17:39:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Regat Kozovv
Originally by: Furb Killer
Torp raven does fine as pvp boat.
My mistake, I forgot about that, though it was my understanding that the torpedo Raven is still a bit tricky to use?
Scorpion is a PvP ship (and my favorite actually. =) But most are fitted with armor plate in order to maximize slots for the ECM.
It's not tricky at all. It's just a shield tanked ship in a world of armor rr. If you're doing something with battleships that doesn't involve rr a torp raven is easily a top choice.
Originally by: BiggestT
Originally by: Cambarus
Also you CLEARLY have no idea what you're doing if you're fitting cruises to a raven in pvp.
Good post except for this bit.
You can get a good 700 dps with a 470+ sustained tank (cap stable) with cruise. You wont have tackle, so its a gang ship but cruise can definately be useful in pvp. Un-blockable damage up to 200+km (if u use sensor boosters) is quite nice actually.
Nobody cares about sustained tank in pvp, especially one that small. A single cruiser could break it easily, much less a gang. And you're completely missing the real problem which is flight time. You have to be close if you want your missiles to even hit before your target dies and if you're close you should be using torps.
Originally by: John Blackthorn "What is wrong with HAMs?" I find two issues with HAM's. There power grid is more than heavy launchers. I wanted to fit ham's on my huggin but they won't fit without a major adjustment to my ship setup.
The second issie with HAM's is they have no better signature radius than heavy missels.
Yes, and tachs are hard to fit and have bad tracking so they must be bad right? The damage of hams makes up for their drawbacks. Missiles are fine; it's only rockets and cruise that are broken. |
Sun Clausewitz
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Posted - 2009.06.23 19:22:00 -
[34]
Caldari fail at solo-PVP.... period |
Admiral Valdore
The Ronin Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.06.23 19:26:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Sun Clausewitz Caldari fail at solo-PVP.... period
Like I havent heard this before LOL. Caldari are fine in gangs, just like every other race. Just have to find their place. |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.23 19:30:00 -
[36]
And there we got our caldari troll who denies the existance of the ham drake. |
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate Onslaught.
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Posted - 2009.06.23 22:14:00 -
[37]
Originally by: BiggestT
Originally by: Cambarus
Also you CLEARLY have no idea what you're doing if you're fitting cruises to a raven in pvp.
Good post except for this bit.
You can get a good 700 dps with a 470+ sustained tank (cap stable) with cruise. You wont have tackle, so its a gang ship but cruise can definately be useful in pvp. Un-blockable damage up to 200+km (if u use sensor boosters) is quite nice actually.
OR you could get 1100 DPS with over 100k EHP using a torp/buffer setup. Sure you can't hit out at 200km, but you'll notice I mentioned that my comments do not apply to large fleet engagements. It's also worth noting that sure a cruise raven CAN be useful in pvp, but aside from maybe minmatar BSs the cruise raven is by far the WORST sniping BS in the game due to the crazy amount of time it will take the missiles to hit their target.
Take 2-3 Rokhs, and a raven, and park them 200km off a gate. Just about any ship will die BEFORE THE FIRST CRUISE MISSILES GET THERE. Cruises are good for lazy PVEers, and that's about it.
So yes while the cruise raven might look nice on paper, having to wait that long for your missiles to hit will cripple any chance it has at competing with decent snipers from other races (or even the rokh).
Last thing: Most pvp happens at <30km range, especially solo/small gang. So for the most part sacrificing a third of your damage to be able to hit something 200km away (and waiting 30 seconds or more for it to happen no less) is not worth it. |
Nadarius Chrome
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2009.06.24 00:23:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Mona X What is wrong with HAMs?
Swine flu. |
Hurtado Soneka
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.06.24 01:30:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin MWD, cap injector, point vs. 3x damage mods. Yep, seems fair to me, both types of tank have to spend the same number of slots on non-tank modules. In fact, it's even more in favor of the shield tankers, since they get to fit a damage control without giving up a tank slot.
Sure, remote rep battleship gangs are rather armor-dominated, but virtually every ship below battleship class is best with a shield buffer tank, so I think that's a fair trade.
3 dmg mods lol. That is a choice going for full gank, though having a full suite of tackle is usually essential not a choice.
Also caldari BCU are strangly a lot harder to fit hmmm, being 10cpu heavier than other weapon upgrades.
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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate Onslaught.
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Posted - 2009.06.24 02:06:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Hurtado Soneka
3 dmg mods lol. That is a choice going for full gank, though having a full suite of tackle is usually essential not a choice.
Also caldari BCU are strangly a lot harder to fit hmmm, being 10cpu heavier than other weapon upgrades.
OK I had a quick look at your stats on battleclinic and I see where you're coming from. You fly mostly smaller ships, there, yeh, 3 damage mods means you're fitting for gank, and a full set of tackle is required(especially since you seem to love t2 frigates :P ) .
HOWEVER, anything BC/BS size (and to a lesser extent cruisers) fits 3 damage mods, period. If you see a BS pilot not fielding 3 damage mods, it's probably a bait ship, or a newb.
The opposite however is true for tackle. Many BSs are fit to fight at 30ish KM, so while a point is usually helpful, a web is not, and since many of them fit buffers a cap injector can often be skipped. (cap stability is hardly required when all you're running is a mwd and maybe a point) |
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My LittleFriend
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Posted - 2009.06.24 04:44:00 -
[41]
lol @ active tanking in pvp.
the injector is to keep your guns/mwd/point/RR/etc running.
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BiggestT
Caldari Oz Space Diggers
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Posted - 2009.06.24 06:05:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Cambarus
OR you could get 1100 DPS with over 100k EHP using a torp/buffer setup. Sure you can't hit out at 200km, but you'll notice I mentioned that my comments do not apply to large fleet engagements. It's also worth noting that sure a cruise raven CAN be useful in pvp, but aside from maybe minmatar BSs the cruise raven is by far the WORST sniping BS in the game due to the crazy amount of time it will take the missiles to hit their target.
Take 2-3 Rokhs, and a raven, and park them 200km off a gate. Just about any ship will die BEFORE THE FIRST CRUISE MISSILES GET THERE. Cruises are good for lazy PVEers, and that's about it.
So yes while the cruise raven might look nice on paper, having to wait that long for your missiles to hit will cripple any chance it has at competing with decent snipers from other races (or even the rokh).
Last thing: Most pvp happens at <30km range, especially solo/small gang. So for the most part sacrificing a third of your damage to be able to hit something 200km away (and waiting 30 seconds or more for it to happen no less) is not worth it.
-warning wall of text discussion!-
Yeah its a poor sniping BS, but it has the best "tracking" (ability to hit small targets) of any bs on a non-webbed target. And i wouldnt use a raven 200km+ out either, but its still good to know htat, if you shoot at a target and it just gets out of lock range, the missiles will keep chasing for quite a while if the target is scrammed by a tackling 'ceptor.
I would agree that a torp raven is probly better, but cruises superior range and ability to hit with quite high alpha should never be underestimated (Burn Eden anyone? :D).
I'd like to add that PVP is more than just <30km or omg 200+km. U can say, warp in at 50-70 and start hitting, the flight time wont matter too much if say its a 10v10 fight and ur hitting the secondary. Yes you will be in a danger zone being not far enough to escape but still close enough to tackle, but this should not really be what you're aiming for in a fight..
And to the other poster, yes active tanks are that crash hot, but their often underestimated. Ppl see 470 dps tank and think LOLcruiser, but it would take one cruiser years to break that tank. Focus fire of several cruisers/hacs etc will be much faster, but compare some km's and u'll still take about the same dmg before death as some buffer fits will. Note that a typical active raven will still have 60k+ ehp.
I also like to plan for the close fights were it comes down to only a few ships, when active tanks are often superior..Yes neuts will hurt it, but both of u will have cap boosters and they'll often kill the other guys cap for guns or active tank faster, as he would have been burning through his cap boosters like high heaven for other targets, and caldari have large cargo bays. Yes he may be passive, but he'll have to stop neuting one day when he runs out of cap for guns ;)
Sorry for the wall of text heh, just thought I'd add an unusaul p.o.v :P
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ArmyOfMe
The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction
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Posted - 2009.06.24 06:41:00 -
[43]
Originally by: My LittleFriend lol @ active tanking in pvp.
the injector is to keep your guns/mwd/point/RR/etc running.
yeah cause nobody active tanks in pvp anymore amirite? |
Ziester
Caldari Echolalia. Shangri-La.
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Posted - 2009.06.24 07:10:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Ziester on 24/06/2009 07:13:03 Edited by: Ziester on 24/06/2009 07:12:58 Edited by: Ziester on 24/06/2009 07:12:44
Originally by: Sun Clausewitz Caldari fail at solo-PVP.... period
Ever flown a HAM Drake ? Ever flown a Blaster Rokh ? Ever flown a Buffer Torp Raven ?
If you want to prove your point, please come to Venilen and 1v1 me with any T1 BS of yours. ( Maybe except a domi-like Neutfest BS as the point is to prove a shield tank's efficiency over armor. Since neuts fracks up both tank systems it would be pointless ).
If you don't want to prove your point, get a clue before posting. ----------
Originally by: CCP Whisper Boo hoo. Cry some more.
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McDaddy Pimp
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.06.25 14:20:00 -
[45]
Shield tanking is fine, i would say shield and armor tank have 50/50 practicality in pvp, you'll notice this even more if you fly Minnie
Active : Mael: 1500dps tank, 800dps gank, Rokh: 800-1000dps tank/gank Passive: Drake 75kehp, 500dps+ , with full web/scram/mwd, and faster then most BC, pure gank Raven 1200dps, 100k ehp, etc etc..
and have you met one of those 1500dps shield Hyperion? freaky! |
Rordan D'Kherr
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.06.25 14:24:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Xeracon So does anyone else think that cap injectors give armor tanking ships a huge advantage over Caldari and assorted shield tanking Minmatar ships?
No. |
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