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Xeracon
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Posted - 2009.06.23 12:26:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Xeracon on 23/06/2009 12:34:31 So does anyone else think that cap injectors give armor tanking ships a huge advantage over Caldari and assorted shield tanking Minmatar ships?
Shield tankers utilize their medium slots for their tank and any additonal medium slots are typically used to enforce the tank (Ex. Cap Rechargers, Capacitor Batteries, Cap Injectors). Those ships that don't use a proper shield tank are typically obliterated by Armor tanking ships because they can't utilize the medium slots in the same fashion. In addition, there are no low slot modules short of the Power Diagnostic that effectively help a shield tank.
Armor tankers on the other hand can not only fit a tank but thanks to cap injectors, they can also field webbers, scramblers, sensor backups... virtually any medium slot EW or anti-EW module they need and all at once. If you tried to fit a scrambler, webber, and sensor backup on a Caldari ship all at once, you'd be a deadman. Recently i've been unlucky enough to encounter well organized, spider-tanking-station huggers. These guys didn' even use low slot armor reppers but rather high slot RR's which opened their low slots for further tank. The shield tanking ships they did use were called primary and taken out with ease.
My argument here is that cap injectors put Armor tankers at an incredible advantage over shield tankers who can't afford to give up medium slots. Does anyone have a solution other then "Don't fly anything that shield tanks"? Should cap injectors be nerfed? |
Dristra
Amarr Idle Haven
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Posted - 2009.06.23 12:29:00 -
[2]
Removing\nerfing cap injectors would have far reaching effects indeed... |
Ziester
Caldari Echolalia. Shangri-La.
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Posted - 2009.06.23 12:34:00 -
[3]
Quote: [Rokh, New Setup 1] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Warp Disruptor II Gallente Navy Stasis Webifier Invulnerability Field II Shield Boost Amplifier II X-Large Shield Booster II
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Hammerhead II x5
Here's an active shield tanker with a cap booster. It works wonders in 1v1 encounters against BC/BS (Yes it's Ferocious Fear's setup I leeched from Battleclinic and I'm using it with HG Crystals).
Quote: So does anyone else think that cap injectors give armor tanking ships a huge advantage over Caldari and assorted shield tanking Minmatar ships?
Shields regenerate over time. Armor doesn't. This is also a 'huge' advantage for shield tankers. |
Tsumei Meyren
Creative Cookie Procuring
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Posted - 2009.06.23 12:36:00 -
[4]
Can also add that shield tanks have more space for Damage mods in their lows |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2009.06.23 12:38:00 -
[5]
MWD, cap injector, point vs. 3x damage mods. Yep, seems fair to me, both types of tank have to spend the same number of slots on non-tank modules. In fact, it's even more in favor of the shield tankers, since they get to fit a damage control without giving up a tank slot.
Sure, remote rep battleship gangs are rather armor-dominated, but virtually every ship below battleship class is best with a shield buffer tank, so I think that's a fair trade. -----------
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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate Onslaught.
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Posted - 2009.06.23 12:46:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin MWD, cap injector, point vs. 3x damage mods. Yep, seems fair to me, both types of tank have to spend the same number of slots on non-tank modules. In fact, it's even more in favor of the shield tankers, since they get to fit a damage control without giving up a tank slot.
THIS FFS.
A ship fit to tank and deal damage (be it in pvp or pve) should have at least 3 damage mods (some people like 4, more than that's a total waste). Now look at slots lost to "mandatory" () pvp items: Cap injector, point, mwd. You could argue that they need a web as well, but that's a load of crap, because the vast majority of shield tanking ships operate OUTSIDE of web range.
Not that any of this matters. Armor is FOTM because amarr is FOTM. If caldari become popular (like say if HAMS and rockets get fixed) you'll see more and more shield tanks floating around. Armor tanking and shield tanking are DIFFERENT. They're supposed to be that way. Each one has advantages and disadvantages, pointing out ONE of such disadvantages does not mean that one is better than the other. |
BiggestT
Caldari Oz Space Diggers
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Posted - 2009.06.23 12:47:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Ziester
Quote: [Rokh, New Setup 1] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Warp Disruptor II Gallente Navy Stasis Webifier Invulnerability Field II Shield Boost Amplifier II X-Large Shield Booster II
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Hammerhead II x5
Here's an active shield tanker with a cap booster. It works wonders in 1v1 encounters against BC/BS (Yes it's Ferocious Fear's setup I leeched from Battleclinic and I'm using it with HG Crystals).
Quote: So does anyone else think that cap injectors give armor tanking ships a huge advantage over Caldari and assorted shield tanking Minmatar ships?
Shields regenerate over time. Armor doesn't. This is also a 'huge' advantage for shield tankers.
Heh, I was going to use the Rokh as a good example but u beat me to it :P (off topic) Mind u i prefer swapping 4th mag stab for RCU II so i can have an mwd and full rack of neuts, but I guess each has its pro's and cons.. EVE history
t2 precisions |
Xeracon
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Posted - 2009.06.23 12:47:00 -
[8]
Ok, Rokh setup is interesting. Course anyone who see's Caldari T1 thinks EM or Therm dmg. Also, not all Shield tankers have built in ship resistance bonuses let alone the medium slots to fit all that. Still an interesting fit, i got 8 neutrons II's to fit by dropping a mag stab and adding a PDU.
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Xeracon
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Posted - 2009.06.23 12:53:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Tsumei Meyren Can also add that shield tanks have more space for Damage mods in their lows
CPU issues: Launchers + 3 DMG Mods + Decent (Not Great) Tank? Very hard to fit. The more you take from your low slots, the less cap you have for your tank.
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Xeracon
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Posted - 2009.06.23 13:00:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin MWD, cap injector, point vs. 3x damage mods. Yep, seems fair to me, both types of tank have to spend the same number of slots on non-tank modules. In fact, it's even more in favor of the shield tankers, since they get to fit a damage control without giving up a tank slot. Quote:
Dmg Controls are easily part of an armor tank. Find me a Torp Raven that can compete with a Blaster Megathron with a cap injector setup. Raven certainly couldn't do it with cruise missiles and there is still no point to hold the Megathron to begin with. |
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Mona X
Caldari Polish Task Forces C0VEN
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Posted - 2009.06.23 13:04:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Cambarus
Not that any of this matters. Armor is FOTM because amarr is FOTM. If caldari become popular (like say if HAMS and rockets get fixed)
What is wrong with HAMs? |
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate Onslaught.
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Posted - 2009.06.23 13:18:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Xeracon
Originally by: Tsumei Meyren Can also add that shield tanks have more space for Damage mods in their lows
CPU issues: Launchers + 3 DMG Mods + Decent (Not Great) Tank? Very hard to fit. The more you take from your low slots, the less cap you have for your tank.
First off, for the love of god learn to edit posts instead of triple freaking posting.
Second, electronics and weapon upgrades are your friend mmmkay?
The more you take from your lowslots, the less cap you have for your tank...? Surely you're not fitting flux coils or CPRs to a pvp raven? A buffer fit has no fitting issues, and is generally preferred in pvp anyway. Learn how to fly the ship before you complain that it sucks.
Originally by: Xeracon
Dmg Controls are easily part of an armor tank. Find me a Torp Raven that can compete with a Blaster Megathron with a cap injector setup. Raven certainly couldn't do it with cruise missiles and there is still no point to hold the Megathron to begin with.
Damage controls help ALL ships, so stfu. Also you CLEARLY have no idea what you're doing if you're fitting cruises to a raven in pvp. You're comparing apples and oranges. Cruise missile are more like rail guns than blasters, for a blaster counterpart you need torps.
Raven and mega engage each other at a gate/belt/whatever: If the fight starts off at <10km, the mega wins If the fight starts off at >10km, the raven wins
Raven does the DPS of a mega at 24km, but sacrifices tackle to do so (torp raven needs painters to be truely effective, so less room for tackle), not that it means that the raven can't fit a point, because it still can and SHOULD. If there weren't that imbalance between the cap stability of armor and shield tanking ships the raven would be crazy OP. |
Xeracon
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Posted - 2009.06.23 13:38:00 -
[13]
Cambrus, you've got excellent selective reading Skills. try reading it slower this time and then offer something better then flames or STFU. |
Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.06.23 13:43:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin MWD, cap injector, point vs. 3x damage mods. Yep, seems fair to me, both types of tank have to spend the same number of slots on non-tank modules. In fact, it's even more in favor of the shield tankers, since they get to fit a damage control without giving up a tank slot.
Sure, remote rep battleship gangs are rather armor-dominated, but virtually every ship below battleship class is best with a shield buffer tank, so I think that's a fair trade.
I'm going to quote this one more time so maybe this time it will penetrate your thick skull. |
Snow Banshee
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.06.23 13:56:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Xeracon stupid stuf
You ever noticed that armor tankers have to sacrifice tanking slots in favour to damage mods where shield tankers/buffers can put 3 damage mods without stealing a single slot to tank?
as example: Your can put easily 3 balistics in a raven and still have 6 tanking slots when a standard megathron with 3 damage mods have just 4 low slot left for tanking.
As you can see is not that simple ... |
quygen
Minmatar Acting Neutral
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Posted - 2009.06.23 14:10:00 -
[16]
Armor tanking is indeed favored over shield tanking in PVP. But hey, You want to lose the cap injector, then i want you to give up your shield boost amplifier.
Shield tanking and armor tanking just isn't the same, but it is balanced. You have more tank and damage, while armor has less damage and tackle.
PS: Tip; try fitting a rig for less cap use on your shieldbooster.. even makes a X-L booster on a Sleipnir intresting... Please resize your sig to a maximum of 400 x 120 - Mitnal
^ You seen it CCP =) Now go fix! |
Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.06.23 14:16:00 -
[17]
Originally by: quygen Armor tanking is indeed favored over shield tanking in PVP. But hey, You want to lose the cap injector, then i want you to give up your shield boost amplifier.
Shield tanking and armor tanking just isn't the same, but it is balanced. You have more tank and damage, while armor has less damage and tackle.
PS: Tip; try fitting a rig for less cap use on your shieldbooster.. even makes a X-L booster on a Sleipnir intresting...
Apparently you've never heard of a buffer tank.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford Now the op looks like a weirdo that can't read kekekeke!
inb4 stealth edit |
Ortos
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.06.23 14:18:00 -
[18]
so we loose a bit of tank to fit a cap injector, armor tankers loose dps when fitting a tank so its a fair trade |
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate Onslaught.
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Posted - 2009.06.23 14:26:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Xeracon Cambrus, you've got excellent selective reading Skills. try reading it slower this time and then offer something better then flames or STFU.
1: Care to be more specific? I tackled just about every point you've made with my last post.
2:It may have been a flame-filled post, but I stand by it. You can argue that I'm being a meanie but w/e because I'm RIGHT. Your posts show that you really don't know how to fly the raven properly, as no one fits cruise launchers for standard (IE non massive fleet fight) pvp, and you don't waste time trying to make a pvp ship capstable by throwing away perfectly good lowslots.
3: Ad hominem arguments with no supporting facts usually mean you've run out of proper things to say, and just so you know if your next post is something along the lines of "Well if you can't see what you missed in my posts I'm not going to tell you" I'm gonna laugh my ass off ^_^ |
Trebor Notlimah
Lone Star EVE Group Veni Vidi Vici
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Posted - 2009.06.23 14:29:00 -
[20]
*boo hooo*
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Xeracon
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Posted - 2009.06.23 14:35:00 -
[21]
I dissagree with the balance concept of tank + DPS = tank + EW/Tackle. I see it can be a hard sacrifice though. In a gang based game, the more ability a single pilot has, the more his corpmates prosper since they don't sacrifice the mods for tackling.
Being able to pilot both armor and shield tankers though, i notice a huge weakness in the Caldari design and i feel the cap injector is at the center-point of this debate.
Really like the suggestions though, shooting back and forth between this and EFT.
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Lili Lu
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
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Posted - 2009.06.23 15:05:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Xeracon Edited by: Xeracon on 23/06/2009 12:34:31 So does anyone else think that cap injectors give armor tanking ships a huge advantage over Caldari and assorted shield tanking Minmatar ships? No
Shield tankers utilize their medium slots for their tank and any additonal medium slots are typically used to enforce the tank (Ex. Cap Rechargers, Capacitor Batteries, Cap Injectors). Those ships that don't use a proper shield tank are typically obliterated by Armor tanking ships because they can't utilize the medium slots in the same fashion. In addition, there are no low slot modules short of the Power Diagnostic that effectively help a shield tank. This paragraph has me confused. I honestly can't decypher exactly what you are moaning about.
Armor tankers on the other hand can not only fit a tank but thanks to cap injectors, they can also field webbers, scramblers, sensor backups... virtually any medium slot EW or anti-EW module they need and all at once. Ok, now I'm starting to understand your misperceptions. Have you ever flown a 3 or 4 smid-slot armor tanking ship? And of those mods that have low slot variations such as eccm do you really think backup arrays do squat with 30% per level bonused ecm on Caldari recons? Your statement is so wrong If you tried to fit a scrambler, webber, and sensor backup on a Caldari ship all at once, you'd be a deadman. Recently i've been unlucky enough to encounter well organized, spider-tanking-station huggers. "Recently"? You must be new to the game. Learn more before you op. These guys didn' even use low slot armor reppers but rather high slot RR's which opened their low slots for further tank. The shield tanking ships they did use were called primary and taken out with ease.
My argument here is that cap injectors put Armor tankers at an incredible advantage over shield tankers who can't afford to give up medium slots. Does anyone have a solution other then "Don't fly anything that shield tanks"? Should cap injectors be nerfed?
Boils down to this- You seem to think armor tanking ships are blessed with mid-slots. You fail to understand the benefits of shield tanks. You probably think that if you can't create a ridiculous passive regen shield tank then you are without a tank. Those station huggers you bemoan were playing as a team. Kudos for them. It has nothing to do with cap injectors (even ceding to your faulty premise that shield tanks cannot fit a cap injector(s)). You obviously have never encountered a bait Scorpion either. Learn more before you op.
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Admiral Valdore
The Ronin Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.06.23 15:24:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Admiral Valdore on 23/06/2009 15:26:32 Yikes OP clearly, CLEARLY thinks armor tanking Clearly is better then shield tanking. CLEARLY!
Yup.
-Admiral Valdore |
Grarr Dexx
Amarr Corp 1 Allstars
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Posted - 2009.06.23 15:26:00 -
[24]
Quote: Not that any of this matters. Armor is FOTM because amarr is FOTM. If caldari become popular (like say if HAMS and rockets get fixed)
If anything, this will be a boost to Amarr too, **** yeah, useful vengeances, maledictions and sacrileges. Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
Davinel Lulinvega
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Posted - 2009.06.23 15:40:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Grarr Dexx
Quote: Not that any of this matters. Armor is FOTM because amarr is FOTM. If caldari become popular (like say if HAMS and rockets get fixed)
If anything, this will be a boost to Amarr too, **** yeah, useful vengeances, maledictions and sacrileges.
Huh what? Hams are fine. Sacs are useful. |
Regat Kozovv
Caldari Alcothology
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Posted - 2009.06.23 16:22:00 -
[26]
I have a feeling whatever ship the OP lost was probably being used incorrectly to begin with. Shield tanks do have advantages and disadvantages to armor tanks. But many Caldari shield tanking ships shouldn't be in a PvP situtation to begin with. Let's see:
Raven: Sustained Active Tank. Needs most of it's slots for it's tank, excels at absorbing prolonged damage in missions, not tanking gank squads. This isn't a PvP ship.
Scorpion: Fitted with plates. Never shield tanked to begin with.
Rokh: The only Caldari PvP battleship, and it gains resistance bonuses to help with it's tank. The setup earlier was a great example of what you can do with an injector.
Drake: Cap? Who needs cap?
What I want to know, is which one of these was he flying when playing unlocking games with pirates? |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.06.23 16:24:00 -
[27]
Sorry but that is crap.
Torp raven does fine as pvp boat. However just like most, but definately not all, shield tanked ships it is just best used with friends.
Scorpion isnt a pvp ship? What do you plan to do with it? |
Regat Kozovv
Caldari Alcothology
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Posted - 2009.06.23 16:40:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Torp raven does fine as pvp boat.
My mistake, I forgot about that, though it was my understanding that the torpedo Raven is still a bit tricky to use?
Scorpion is a PvP ship (and my favorite actually. =) But most are fitted with armor plate in order to maximize slots for the ECM.
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kyrv
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Posted - 2009.06.23 16:42:00 -
[29]
The only time I carried favor of the Raven was after several 1vs1 fights way back when sig radius and speed or something insane weren't a problem and they basted my tempest all over the shop.
Thinking now however it sorta died the first maybe Tempest>Raven>Apoc>Mega
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BiggestT
Caldari Oz Space Diggers
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Posted - 2009.06.23 16:44:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Cambarus
Also you CLEARLY have no idea what you're doing if you're fitting cruises to a raven in pvp.
Good post except for this bit.
You can get a good 700 dps with a 470+ sustained tank (cap stable) with cruise. You wont have tackle, so its a gang ship but cruise can definately be useful in pvp. Un-blockable damage up to 200+km (if u use sensor boosters) is quite nice actually. EVE history
t2 precisions |
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