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Kynoch
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Posted - 2004.09.20 21:15:00 -
[1]
I guess you all know that I have been *****ing like a cheerleader lately about the recent debacle in DSS. Well, I have had a post in the forum and for the most part the general consenus is that "Hey **** happens, sorry we cant do anthing about it cuz if we did nobody would have to live with any consequences". I agree with this in prinicple. Here is another way to look at it.
If you are a long time customer of CCP in good standing without any warnings or suspensions or you are not known as a scammer etc. I believe that you deserve a "gimmee". What I mean by that is that since you are the customer, spend your money and more precious time, tow the line live by the EULA etc, you deserve a one time reversal of an in-game mishap, within reason. Obviously this has to be judged on individual merit but nonetheless you absolutely deserve the benefit of the doubt at least once. CCP knows what materials you own in-game and they know when and how it is lost so they can keep people from making patently fraudulent requests for things they never had.
To illustrate this, try to remember ever having to take something back to a retail store because it was defective or not the right thing etc. Have you ever seen someone doing the same thing and they were blatantly returning used items that the store should refuse to take...yet they do and they refund with tha smile. Now, if the person is known for doing this or has done this before they will know about it from the records of the transaction and most likely tell him to hike the next time...but the give him the benefit of the doubt the first time. I once took an Ipaq PDA back to best buy because a pressure problem on a plane caused the screen to *****. It was weird as hell and it could not be proven. They told me that they usually dont take things back that have been damaged in this manner but agreed to do so this one time. I received a new Ipaq and all was well.
CCP should adopt this policy. They may end up making a mistake from time to time but in the long run I think it will help with PR concerning their service and most of the time it will be legit.
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Kynoch
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Posted - 2004.09.20 21:15:00 -
[2]
I guess you all know that I have been *****ing like a cheerleader lately about the recent debacle in DSS. Well, I have had a post in the forum and for the most part the general consenus is that "Hey **** happens, sorry we cant do anthing about it cuz if we did nobody would have to live with any consequences". I agree with this in prinicple. Here is another way to look at it.
If you are a long time customer of CCP in good standing without any warnings or suspensions or you are not known as a scammer etc. I believe that you deserve a "gimmee". What I mean by that is that since you are the customer, spend your money and more precious time, tow the line live by the EULA etc, you deserve a one time reversal of an in-game mishap, within reason. Obviously this has to be judged on individual merit but nonetheless you absolutely deserve the benefit of the doubt at least once. CCP knows what materials you own in-game and they know when and how it is lost so they can keep people from making patently fraudulent requests for things they never had.
To illustrate this, try to remember ever having to take something back to a retail store because it was defective or not the right thing etc. Have you ever seen someone doing the same thing and they were blatantly returning used items that the store should refuse to take...yet they do and they refund with tha smile. Now, if the person is known for doing this or has done this before they will know about it from the records of the transaction and most likely tell him to hike the next time...but the give him the benefit of the doubt the first time. I once took an Ipaq PDA back to best buy because a pressure problem on a plane caused the screen to *****. It was weird as hell and it could not be proven. They told me that they usually dont take things back that have been damaged in this manner but agreed to do so this one time. I received a new Ipaq and all was well.
CCP should adopt this policy. They may end up making a mistake from time to time but in the long run I think it will help with PR concerning their service and most of the time it will be legit.
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Daakkon
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Posted - 2004.09.20 21:20:00 -
[3]
EVE IS FLAWLESS NOOB! 
www.dark-cartel.com |
Daakkon
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Posted - 2004.09.20 21:20:00 -
[4]
EVE IS FLAWLESS NOOB!
www.dark-cartel.com |
Volchier
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Posted - 2004.09.20 21:59:00 -
[5]
This one topic could go a long way to getting CCP to change its policy on replacing things that their "logs" do not show. I know that alot of people have lost things to "wierd" circumstances. I also know that plenty of people would like to get at least something back from it as a thank you for being a good customer from CCP...
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Volchier
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Posted - 2004.09.20 21:59:00 -
[6]
This one topic could go a long way to getting CCP to change its policy on replacing things that their "logs" do not show. I know that alot of people have lost things to "wierd" circumstances. I also know that plenty of people would like to get at least something back from it as a thank you for being a good customer from CCP...
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voodoo
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Posted - 2004.09.20 22:38:00 -
[7]
hehe
I bished for about 1.5 months petiton after petiton about the same thing, I lost some proto 425s due to a lag infested fleet battle in the bkg system. In the end after many differant approaches to the GM's the end result is if the server crashes then you might stand a chance but in my situation lag caused my demise and there was no proof of the lag, so I got nadda. I tried the "im a good player and payer" thing. nadda on the replacement
If they can see in their "logs" then you got a good chance, if not move along dont even bother yourself, just move along.
sucks but thats the way it is, and I accept that now. Looking forward to shiva and dont want anything to slow them down.
The Blue Pills Make Me Happy |
voodoo
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Posted - 2004.09.20 22:38:00 -
[8]
hehe
I bished for about 1.5 months petiton after petiton about the same thing, I lost some proto 425s due to a lag infested fleet battle in the bkg system. In the end after many differant approaches to the GM's the end result is if the server crashes then you might stand a chance but in my situation lag caused my demise and there was no proof of the lag, so I got nadda. I tried the "im a good player and payer" thing. nadda on the replacement
If they can see in their "logs" then you got a good chance, if not move along dont even bother yourself, just move along.
sucks but thats the way it is, and I accept that now. Looking forward to shiva and dont want anything to slow them down.
The Blue Pills Make Me Happy |
kieron
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Posted - 2004.09.20 23:03:00 -
[9]
CCP has a very liberal item replacement policy in place as long as there are records that the item existed. If we were to institute a "1-shot" replacement policy without log/ownership verification, such a policy would be exploitable. Where should the line be drawn? What would prevent an unscrupulous player from using his 1-shot for a BPo that he "just got from a research agent" and disappeared, or a fully kitted out Apoc?
As for the retail store analogy, that is a different situation. In that case, you are walking into the store with a physical item where the damage is visible. Hard to do so when all there is to fall back upon is a player's honor/honesty.
kieron
Community Manager,
EVE Online
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kieron
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Posted - 2004.09.20 23:03:00 -
[10]
CCP has a very liberal item replacement policy in place as long as there are records that the item existed. If we were to institute a "1-shot" replacement policy without log/ownership verification, such a policy would be exploitable. Where should the line be drawn? What would prevent an unscrupulous player from using his 1-shot for a BPo that he "just got from a research agent" and disappeared, or a fully kitted out Apoc?
As for the retail store analogy, that is a different situation. In that case, you are walking into the store with a physical item where the damage is visible. Hard to do so when all there is to fall back upon is a player's honor/honesty.
kieron
Community Manager,
EVE Online
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Riddari
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Posted - 2004.09.20 23:09:00 -
[11]
It would be veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery interesting to see what actually CCP log... cause I've not known it to help in any instances I've had.
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a history |
Riddari
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Posted - 2004.09.20 23:09:00 -
[12]
It would be veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery interesting to see what actually CCP log... cause I've not known it to help in any instances I've had.
¼©¼
a history |
Hakera
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Posted - 2004.09.20 23:14:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Hakera on 20/09/2004 23:16:02
I have lost ships and precious items due to certain actions or states not being logged for the GM's to look at. Perhaps it would help if as new additions are made to the game, they are also added to the GM logs in case anything goes wrong? (like cloaking?)
The reimbursment policy itself is very sensible and welcome. The lack of GM logging is perhaps the biggest problem as I believe I am not alone in receiving the "Nothing shows on our logs and we cannot help, our hands are tied!" message so many get.
It would be welcome to see what actually is logged because I know cloaking states are not.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Hakera
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Posted - 2004.09.20 23:14:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Hakera on 20/09/2004 23:16:02
I have lost ships and precious items due to certain actions or states not being logged for the GM's to look at. Perhaps it would help if as new additions are made to the game, they are also added to the GM logs in case anything goes wrong? (like cloaking?)
The reimbursment policy itself is very sensible and welcome. The lack of GM logging is perhaps the biggest problem as I believe I am not alone in receiving the "Nothing shows on our logs and we cannot help, our hands are tied!" message so many get.
It would be welcome to see what actually is logged because I know cloaking states are not.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
kieron
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Posted - 2004.09.20 23:37:00 -
[15]
Due to potential exploit issues, a list of what is logged and what is not logged will never be released. It's hard enough keeping the hackers and SafeSpotBusterXploit5kÖ programmers in check right now. To do so would simply give these unscrupulous players a road map of routes to take, not to mention releasing such a list would be a security nightmare.
kieron
Community Manager,
EVE Online
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kieron
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Posted - 2004.09.20 23:37:00 -
[16]
Due to potential exploit issues, a list of what is logged and what is not logged will never be released. It's hard enough keeping the hackers and SafeSpotBusterXploit5kÖ programmers in check right now. To do so would simply give these unscrupulous players a road map of routes to take, not to mention releasing such a list would be a security nightmare.
kieron
Community Manager,
EVE Online
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Ebedar
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Posted - 2004.09.20 23:45:00 -
[17]
I hope it's not the same logging system the players have to keep track of hits in combat, as that would mean only about a fifth of the data actually gets recorded 
My life in pictures:
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Ebedar
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Posted - 2004.09.20 23:45:00 -
[18]
I hope it's not the same logging system the players have to keep track of hits in combat, as that would mean only about a fifth of the data actually gets recorded
My life in pictures:
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Ronyo Dae'Loki
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Posted - 2004.09.20 23:55:00 -
[19]
 Originally by: Ebedar
I hope it's not the same logging system the players have to keep track of hits in combat, as that would mean only about a fifth of the data actually gets recorded
ROFL
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My salsa makes all the pretty girls want to dance and take off their underpants.
I <3 ( . Y . ) |
Ronyo Dae'Loki
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Posted - 2004.09.20 23:55:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Ebedar
I hope it's not the same logging system the players have to keep track of hits in combat, as that would mean only about a fifth of the data actually gets recorded
ROFL
-------------
My salsa makes all the pretty girls want to dance and take off their underpants.
I <3 ( . Y . ) |
Kynoch
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Posted - 2004.09.21 00:11:00 -
[21]
Originally by: kieron
CCP has a very liberal item replacement policy in place as long as there are records that the item existed. If we were to institute a "1-shot" replacement policy without log/ownership verification, such a policy would be exploitable. Where should the line be drawn? What would prevent an unscrupulous player from using his 1-shot for a BPo that he "just got from a research agent" and disappeared, or a fully kitted out Apoc?
As for the retail store analogy, that is a different situation. In that case, you are walking into the store with a physical item where the damage is visible. Hard to do so when all there is to fall back upon is a player's honor/honesty.
Your telling me that there is not a verifiable record of a data transaction of the state and value of a particular item . Im sure they can.
The analogy of the retail store is valid in that is shows that even when faced with the loss of revenue through a false claim for a return, the refund is still done in the interest of customer satifaction and repeat business AND that little thing called benefit of the doubt. In my convo with GM Fate concerning the issue he indicated that it would have taken less time to replace all my stuff than to respond to the request. This would not have resulted in the loss of revenue for CCP. Again, Im sure that the data was there and then...it wasnt. I dont know all the vaguries of the guts of the game but it is based on SQL backend is it not? Also this would be a one time shot not a recurring "prove me wrong" issue. But again I know this is for conversation sake and not an argument.
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Kynoch
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Posted - 2004.09.21 00:11:00 -
[22]
Originally by: kieron
CCP has a very liberal item replacement policy in place as long as there are records that the item existed. If we were to institute a "1-shot" replacement policy without log/ownership verification, such a policy would be exploitable. Where should the line be drawn? What would prevent an unscrupulous player from using his 1-shot for a BPo that he "just got from a research agent" and disappeared, or a fully kitted out Apoc?
As for the retail store analogy, that is a different situation. In that case, you are walking into the store with a physical item where the damage is visible. Hard to do so when all there is to fall back upon is a player's honor/honesty.
Your telling me that there is not a verifiable record of a data transaction of the state and value of a particular item . Im sure they can.
The analogy of the retail store is valid in that is shows that even when faced with the loss of revenue through a false claim for a return, the refund is still done in the interest of customer satifaction and repeat business AND that little thing called benefit of the doubt. In my convo with GM Fate concerning the issue he indicated that it would have taken less time to replace all my stuff than to respond to the request. This would not have resulted in the loss of revenue for CCP. Again, Im sure that the data was there and then...it wasnt. I dont know all the vaguries of the guts of the game but it is based on SQL backend is it not? Also this would be a one time shot not a recurring "prove me wrong" issue. But again I know this is for conversation sake and not an argument.
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Riddari
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Posted - 2004.09.21 00:11:00 -
[23]
So the "capacitator goes dry sometimes when undocking and at some gates" bug isn't logged I guess....
¼©¼
a history |
Riddari
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Posted - 2004.09.21 00:11:00 -
[24]
So the "capacitator goes dry sometimes when undocking and at some gates" bug isn't logged I guess....
¼©¼
a history |
Dream Crusher
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Posted - 2004.09.21 00:21:00 -
[25]
This is utterly ridiculous.
The game is bugged and everyone knows it.
So a station gun at 211 km from you shoots you.
You petition it and they say, "well GEE WIZZ UNCLE BOB sorry but we don't have a log of it".
So now I lost something because 1) the game is bugged and 2) the game is bugged in that it didn't keep a log?
Well, all I gotta say is WOWoWOW you broke 10,000 customers but how long are they going to stay if you treat them like dirt?  |
Dream Crusher
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Posted - 2004.09.21 00:21:00 -
[26]
This is utterly ridiculous.
The game is bugged and everyone knows it.
So a station gun at 211 km from you shoots you.
You petition it and they say, "well GEE WIZZ UNCLE BOB sorry but we don't have a log of it".
So now I lost something because 1) the game is bugged and 2) the game is bugged in that it didn't keep a log?
Well, all I gotta say is WOWoWOW you broke 10,000 customers but how long are they going to stay if you treat them like dirt? |
corporal hicks
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Posted - 2004.09.21 01:11:00 -
[27]
We are sorry for your loss but Our logs do not show this, they are currently burning in the fireplace keeping us warm in this cold icelandic climate.
We hope you can recover from your obivious loss to a bug, but under the circumstances we are not replacing your gear because it would only incriminate us and actually force us to acknowledge a bug exsists.
Have a nice day.
" Stay Frosty "
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corporal hicks
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Posted - 2004.09.21 01:11:00 -
[28]
We are sorry for your loss but Our logs do not show this, they are currently burning in the fireplace keeping us warm in this cold icelandic climate.
We hope you can recover from your obivious loss to a bug, but under the circumstances we are not replacing your gear because it would only incriminate us and actually force us to acknowledge a bug exsists.
Have a nice day.
" Stay Frosty "
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nieo
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Posted - 2004.09.21 01:16:00 -
[29]
Kieron, I have something very nasty that showed up and killed me practically instantaneously. Now since I petitioned about it and got a semi confession that I was in fact correct in my case, they still couldn't reimburse me due to various issues on your side. I don't know if I can explain more without breaking the EULA but I'd love to share the details with you and get your take on it.
So how do I get in touch with you and present the case and (if allowed to) the discussion with the GM that managed the petition? You're welcome to mail me at the adress I have specified in my account.
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nieo
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Posted - 2004.09.21 01:16:00 -
[30]
Kieron, I have something very nasty that showed up and killed me practically instantaneously. Now since I petitioned about it and got a semi confession that I was in fact correct in my case, they still couldn't reimburse me due to various issues on your side. I don't know if I can explain more without breaking the EULA but I'd love to share the details with you and get your take on it.
So how do I get in touch with you and present the case and (if allowed to) the discussion with the GM that managed the petition? You're welcome to mail me at the adress I have specified in my account.
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