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Vyktor Abyss
Gallente
The Abyss Corporation
Abyss Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.18 17:08:00 -
[181]
Only skim read, but the underlining of CCP's post is very selective.
You conveniently don't underline "capable of doing specialized types of damage".
I'm no Minmatar expert tbh, I'm a Gallente expert - But one thing that you're overlooking is the choice to do EM, Explosive, Thermal or Kinetic damage types without using capacitor.
Hybrids and Lasers are so limited with their damage types and requiring cap for firing, regarless of whether they look better on paper on the current BS or not. I think a buff/redesign of ship scanners modules (showing resists/ total capacitor details etc) would probably benefit Minmatar nicely. Combine that "easier" intel with the choice of damage types etc and smarter Minnies would tear it up again I reckon.
Saying that I'm not commenting on the overall balance since I remember Arty Tempests used to be the gate sniper of choice, and AC pest was the belt pirater supreme - and they aren't as common these days in my experience. Not sure if its a symptom of a greater piracy nerf or Minnie nerfs though tbh - probably a bit of both.
Regardless, it is important to remember the advantages of Projectiles over the others when comparing Minnie BS. 
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.07.18 17:14:00 -
[182]
 Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
Only skim read, but the underlining of CCP's post is very selective.
You conveniently don't underline "capable of doing specialized types of damage".
I'm no Minmatar expert tbh, I'm a Gallente expert - But one thing that you're overlooking is the choice to do EM, Explosive, Thermal or Kinetic damage types without using capacitor.
Hybrids and Lasers are so limited with their damage types and requiring cap for firing, regarless of whether they look better on paper on the current BS or not. I think a buff/redesign of ship scanners modules (showing resists/ total capacitor details etc) would probably benefit Minmatar nicely. Combine that "easier" intel with the choice of damage types etc and smarter Minnies would tear it up again I reckon.
Saying that I'm not commenting on the overall balance since I remember Arty Tempests used to be the gate sniper of choice, and AC pest was the belt pirater supreme - and they aren't as common these days in my experience. Not sure if its a symptom of a greater piracy nerf or Minnie nerfs though tbh - probably a bit of both.
Regardless, it is important to remember the advantages of Projectiles over the others when comparing Minnie BS.
/facepalm for someone bringing up selective damage
Selective damage is missiles. Projectiles have several different types of damage mixes, but only a few are actually any use at all. Emp is not used because it is the best damage spread, but because it is just the short range/High damage ammo.
Using projectile selective damage as an argument for not giving them bonuses is just really bad thinking.
________________________________________________
For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (also with a review of the Muninn!) |
Vyktor Abyss
Gallente
The Abyss Corporation
Abyss Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.18 17:32:00 -
[183]
You're arguing; I'm only pointing out the facts you missed out when selectively cherry-picking some poorer charecteristics of Projectiles (& Minnie BS) and forgetting others for your analysis compared to Guns of other races.
You might not think EMP is useful for PVP currently but it seems to sell quite well on the markets, so plenty of folks disagree. Or are they all PVE-ing?
But whatever, I know nothing - I've only been playing years as Gallente only.
/facepalm away mate, if thats what I get for trying to be critically constructive. 
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.07.18 17:40:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
You're arguing; I'm only pointing out the facts you missed out when selectively cherry-picking some poorer charecteristics of Projectiles (& Minnie BS) and forgetting others for your analysis compared to Guns of other races.
You might not think EMP is useful for PVP currently but it seems to sell quite well on the markets, so plenty of folks disagree. Or are they all PVE-ing?
But whatever, I know nothing - I've only been playing years as Gallente only.
/facepalm away mate, if thats what I get for trying to be critically constructive.
Emp is used the most because it is the highest damage ammo, or at least the highest raw DPS.
Sorry about the facepalming  , but some people seem to think that minmatar can just throw out any type of damage freely, when they really can't. Besides, its nice to see actual constructive criticism rather than trolling 
________________________________________________
For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (also with a review of the Muninn!) |
1600 RT
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Posted - 2009.07.18 17:43:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Forge Lag
Originally by: 1600 RT
a 7.5 rof instead of a 5dmg+5rof its a nerf not only for the obvious alpha but to close range dps as well
It is measly 4% damage decrease (it basically combines two bonuses into one as 5% ROF is not real bonus by itself and we need room for second bonus given the ship has only 6 guns). Besides math you also overlooked the proposed falloff bonus.
falloff bonus give the advantage of pushing your damage at longer distances, but at close range < 10km the double dmg pest it is still doing more dps.
nerfing the dps of the already lowest dps BS isnt that great of idea (not counting the scorp here)
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.07.18 18:04:00 -
[186]
Originally by: 1600 RT
Originally by: Forge Lag
Originally by: 1600 RT
a 7.5 rof instead of a 5dmg+5rof its a nerf not only for the obvious alpha but to close range dps as well
It is measly 4% damage decrease (it basically combines two bonuses into one as 5% ROF is not real bonus by itself and we need room for second bonus given the ship has only 6 guns). Besides math you also overlooked the proposed falloff bonus.
falloff bonus give the advantage of pushing your damage at longer distances, but at close range < 10km the double dmg pest it is still doing more dps.
nerfing the dps of the already lowest dps BS isnt that great of idea (not counting the scorp here)
It also happens to be the range a which most battleship combat takes place at the moment, hence the dominance of lasers at battleship level.
Also, it means that it can do the whole "fight at different ranges" thing that much better, as it doesn't immediately lose half its DPS if it fights outside 10km
________________________________________________
For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (also with a review of the Muninn!) |
1600 RT
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Posted - 2009.07.18 18:29:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Bibbleibble
Originally by: 1600 RT
Originally by: Forge Lag
Originally by: 1600 RT
a 7.5 rof instead of a 5dmg+5rof its a nerf not only for the obvious alpha but to close range dps as well
It is measly 4% damage decrease (it basically combines two bonuses into one as 5% ROF is not real bonus by itself and we need room for second bonus given the ship has only 6 guns). Besides math you also overlooked the proposed falloff bonus.
falloff bonus give the advantage of pushing your damage at longer distances, but at close range < 10km the double dmg pest it is still doing more dps.
nerfing the dps of the already lowest dps BS isnt that great of idea (not counting the scorp here)
It also happens to be the range a which most battleship combat takes place at the moment, hence the dominance of lasers at battleship level.
Also, it means that it can do the whole "fight at different ranges" thing that much better, as it doesn't immediately lose half its DPS if it fights outside 10km
hence if i wanna fight at long range i train amarr.
but if i wanna do decent dps at close and dont lose them all at longer range i fly matar, the falloff bonus you purpose on the AC and a improved AC will do that w/o ship bonus changes
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.07.18 18:41:00 -
[188]
Originally by: 1600 RT
hence if i wanna fight at long range i train amarr.
but if i wanna do decent dps at close and dont lose them all at longer range i fly matar, the falloff bonus you purpose on the AC and a improved AC will do that w/o ship bonus changes
Now here's the problem: I can make a Dominix that will outdamage your Tempest at any range, with an almost identical tank, the same number of utility slots, better tracking and better ability against small targets.
The falloff bonus means that at least at long ranges it is possible to outdamage this Dominix with a Tempest.
________________________________________________
For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (also with a review of the Muninn!) |
1600 RT
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Posted - 2009.07.18 19:17:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Bibbleibble
Originally by: 1600 RT
hence if i wanna fight at long range i train amarr.
but if i wanna do decent dps at close and dont lose them all at longer range i fly matar, the falloff bonus you purpose on the AC and a improved AC will do that w/o ship bonus changes
Now here's the problem: I can make a Dominix that will outdamage your Tempest at any range, with an almost identical tank, the same number of utility slots, better tracking and better ability against small targets.
The falloff bonus means that at least at long ranges it is possible to outdamage this Dominix with a Tempest.
1st drones can be shot.
2nd im speaking about balancing turrets
3rd lowering tempest DPS for some falloff would mean the tempest can get owned even better at close range to get a tiny advantage outside warp disruptor range, wow so great try again.
4rd boosting AC dmg will give a chanche to that tempest and falloff scaling with tier would have a similar effect than changing the tempest bonus. |
Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.07.18 19:24:00 -
[190]
Originally by: 1600 RT
Originally by: Bibbleibble
Originally by: 1600 RT
hence if i wanna fight at long range i train amarr.
but if i wanna do decent dps at close and dont lose them all at longer range i fly matar, the falloff bonus you purpose on the AC and a improved AC will do that w/o ship bonus changes
Now here's the problem: I can make a Dominix that will outdamage your Tempest at any range, with an almost identical tank, the same number of utility slots, better tracking and better ability against small targets.
The falloff bonus means that at least at long ranges it is possible to outdamage this Dominix with a Tempest.
1st drones can be shot.
2nd im speaking about balancing turrets
3rd lowering tempest DPS for some falloff would mean the tempest can get owned even better at close range to get a tiny advantage outside warp disruptor range, wow so great try again.
4rd boosting AC dmg will give a chanche to that tempest and falloff scaling with tier would have a similar effect than changing the tempest bonus.
1. And? Turrets can be tracking disruptored.
2. Just throwing that example out to prove a point.
3. WTB 13km Warp Disruptor
4. Increasing falloff generically means that you can end up making other ships too good. You have to remember that if you want a short range brawler ship, you still have the Maelstrom and the Typhoon, and also that you wouldn't try flying say an Apocalypse as a brawler. |
Forge Lag
Jita Lag Preservation Fund
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Posted - 2009.07.18 19:57:00 -
[191]
1600 is either troll or dumb and refuses to admit he got upset by nothing but his imagination and laziness to pull out calculator.
4% in total, just because numbers look better that way. On guns that never ever do paper DPS in race that is everything but raw DPS. Make it 8% ROF especially for him, I doubt anyone cares.
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AtheistOfDoom
Amarr
The Athiest Syndicate
Advocated Destruction
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Posted - 2009.07.19 01:03:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Nostredeus Morphius
THE MAELSTROM
-Bonuses changed to:
--5% large projectile weapon rate of fire per level
--10% shield boost amount per level
so give it 2.5% better boost per lvl? its already a fantastic tanker and great for small gang/solo pvp. that would make it overpowered.
Pew Pew Lazorz!!! |
Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.07.19 07:41:00 -
[193]
Originally by: AtheistOfDoom
Originally by: Nostredeus Morphius
THE MAELSTROM
-Bonuses changed to:
--5% large projectile weapon rate of fire per level
--10% shield boost amount per level
so give it 2.5% better boost per lvl? its already a fantastic tanker and great for small gang/solo pvp. that would make it overpowered.
Yeah I realized. 
I've dropped that from the latest list of changes (see page 6)
________________________________________________
For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (also with a review of the Muninn!) |
Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.07.20 08:11:00 -
[194]
Bumping for more feedback.
________________________________________________
For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (also with a review of the Muninn!) |
Hrodgar Ortal
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Posted - 2009.07.20 08:43:00 -
[195]
From what I can see the biggest problem is the difficulty of getting a decent range with decent damage.
So reducing the optimal feels wrong, even with the idea of "fighting in falloff" since falloff reduces the damage significantly.
Would rather increase optimal a bit and falloff a bit which should with skills give a better mix.
In general I think the ships are ok, the tempest might need a little grid boost but I'm not sure.
Something to think about is that the minmatar ships should have been developed to counter/match the amarr ones.
Just noob random thoughts.
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.07.20 10:53:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Hrodgar Ortal
From what I can see the biggest problem is the difficulty of getting a decent range with decent damage.
So reducing the optimal feels wrong, even with the idea of "fighting in falloff" since falloff reduces the damage significantly.
Would rather increase optimal a bit and falloff a bit which should with skills give a better mix.
In general I think the ships are ok, the tempest might need a little grid boost but I'm not sure.
Something to think about is that the minmatar ships should have been developed to counter/match the amarr ones.
Just noob random thoughts.
Whilst reducing optimal may seem to be counter productive to the aim of increasing the range of artillery, the massive boost in falloff more than makes up for it.
What the boost in falloff means is that at different ranges, the Tempest out-DPSes certain ships.
Beyond 200km it can outdamage the Megathron by just having more range
Beyond 240km it can outdamage the Apocalypse, again by having more range.
Before 192.5km it outdamages the Rokh.
This means that in fleet fights Tempests have to think about what position to be at, depending on the fleet make up of the enemy. Combing this with the hit and run ability they have, you would be looking at Tempest's having to be mobile on the field beyond what current snipers have to do.
________________________________________________
For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (also with a review of the Muninn!) |
Seishi Maru
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.07.20 11:30:00 -
[197]
Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
You're arguing; I'm only pointing out the facts you missed out when selectively cherry-picking some poorer charecteristics of Projectiles (& Minnie BS) and forgetting others for your analysis compared to Guns of other races.
You might not think EMP is useful for PVP currently but it seems to sell quite well on the markets, so plenty of folks disagree. Or are they all PVE-ing?
But whatever, I know nothing - I've only been playing years as Gallente only.
/facepalm away mate, if thats what I get for trying to be critically constructive.
The point is minmatar selective damage is a MYTH!
T2 ammo has FIXED damage type.
IF you want to choose you can drop the base damage (compare base damage of EMP against antimatter) adnt hen get a half em , quarter explo quarter kin... or a 2/3 thermal one (that is in fact the only useful damage type choice) or a 2/3 explosive one that si already 3rd ammo on damage ammount (that means pathetica base damage).
IF projectile ammo had a 2/3 EM top damage and a 2/3 explosive SAME top damage then damage selection would be real.
As it is now isonlya a MYTH!
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Seishi Maru
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.07.20 11:41:00 -
[198]
Edited by: Seishi Maru on 20/07/2009 11:45:06
Things I find funny. The only BS with 2 damage bonus is the lowest damage one on most realistic scenarios.....
Very important, The tempest use to be powerful.. that before CCP started to nerf everything that increased versatility on ships. NErfing ECM on non specialized ships.. nerfed tempest.. nerfing NOS, nerfed tempest, nerfingspeed.. nerfed tempest, overheat on tackling gear nerfed tempest, nerfing of track computers with scripts nerfed tempest (the sniper that need most from its mid slots), nerfing of Sensor Boosters with scripts nerfed tempest (shortest lock range).
Locus rig nerf... nerfed tempest (was sniper that needed most the extra range).
When of the speed nerf CCP made tempest weight MORE than most other battleships. And made it less agile than caldari ones...
A lot of combined nonsense here.
It is obvious how to fix arties, in fact more than one option.. i ccp cannot see that they are blind of simply lazy... sorry but true.
On the AC issue, it might be a bit more complicated since they cannot dislodge the blasters. My personal view would be.. increase falloff to 20 km base and increase tracking .. a LOT. It will be the lowest damage of all large close range guns, but with highest tracking. That would give it 2 roles.
First role would depend of CCP unscrewing the mass on the tempest and making the tempest as light as the lighest battleship. Also mustbe the most agile. PERIOD! Then tempest would be able to try to outtrack enemy large guns close range with AB and scrambler while not suffering so much from the transversal. That is a FOCUSED and limited advantage.. not overpowered at all, and match the NEED for pilot skill of minmatar ships.
Other role would be as the Battleship that better deals with smaller ships. With superior trackign and its 2 extra high slots a tempest would become the worse enemy of commandships and even hacs to some limited degree.
There are TONS of eveidence that Projectiles sux and that tempest SUEPR sux. THere are tons of way to fix it... its just up to CCP take 2 people for 2-3 days and select 2-3 solutiosn test each one on test server.
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Seishi Maru
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.07.20 11:48:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Bibbleibble
Originally by: 1600 RT
Originally by: Bibbleibble
Originally by: 1600 RT
hence if i wanna fight at long range i train amarr.
but if i wanna do decent dps at close and dont lose them all at longer range i fly matar, the falloff bonus you purpose on the AC and a improved AC will do that w/o ship bonus changes
Now here's the problem: I can make a Dominix that will outdamage your Tempest at any range, with an almost identical tank, the same number of utility slots, better tracking and better ability against small targets.
The falloff bonus means that at least at long ranges it is possible to outdamage this Dominix with a Tempest.
1st drones can be shot.
2nd im speaking about balancing turrets
3rd lowering tempest DPS for some falloff would mean the tempest can get owned even better at close range to get a tiny advantage outside warp disruptor range, wow so great try again.
4rd boosting AC dmg will give a chanche to that tempest and falloff scaling with tier would have a similar effect than changing the tempest bonus.
1. And? Turrets can be tracking disruptored.
2. Just throwing that example out to prove a point.
3. WTB 13km Warp Disruptor
4. Increasing falloff generically means that you can end up making other ships too good. You have to remember that if you want a short range brawler ship, you still have the Maelstrom and the Typhoon, and also that you wouldn't try flying say an Apocalypse as a brawler.
When CCP created the maesltrom they said it woudl be the sniper ship. But CCP failed on doing anythign decent on that. It has useless bonus for long range whiel beign too fat fro close range (and shield tanked on close range where you need tackle is a 3@!#(!@#(! )
Maelstrom shoudl be made the sniper. Change bonus to 7.5% DAMAGE bonus. And to 10% extra SHield HitPoint . Done an EXCELENT sniper.
Then make tempest the most agile ship and improve AC so it can be the close range ship.
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.07.20 12:13:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Seishi Maru
stuff
I've looked, but I can't find CCP saying that the Maelstrom is supposed to be a sniper anywhere
The only thing I found relating to the Maelstrom's role is this devblog, which just says how it is supposed to tank.
Increasing the Maelstrom's damage by giving it a 7.5% damage bonus would be.... painful.
It is already one of the highest damage ships when fitted for long range, out damaging even the Apocalypse if the Apoc is not fitted with 8 Tachyons (which most people don't because of the high fitting requirements).
and increasing shield hitpoints would be hard to balance, as you would have to fiddle around with the shield recharge times.
The final reason to not re-task the Maelstrom is that is an undeniably successful ship, with a real niche as an active shield tanker.
I have yet to see a role for the Tempest that I couldn't replicate with other ships, and do just as well, if not better.
________________________________________________
For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (also with a review of the Muninn!) |
1600 RT
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Posted - 2009.07.20 12:26:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Seishi Maru
When CCP created the maesltrom they said it woudl be the sniper ship. But CCP failed on doing anythign decent on that. It has useless bonus for long range whiel beign too fat fro close range (and shield tanked on close range where you need tackle is a 3@!#(!@#(! )
Maelstrom shoudl be made the sniper. Change bonus to 7.5% DAMAGE bonus. And to 10% extra SHield HitPoint . Done an EXCELENT sniper.
Then make tempest the most agile ship and improve AC so it can be the close range ship.
much better changes if something needs to be done on ship bonus
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Seishi Maru
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.07.20 12:37:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Bibbleibble
Originally by: Seishi Maru
stuff
I've looked, but I can't find CCP saying that the Maelstrom is supposed to be a sniper anywhere
The only thing I found relating to the Maelstrom's role is this devblog, which just says how it is supposed to tank.
Increasing the Maelstrom's damage by giving it a 7.5% damage bonus would be.... painful.
It is already one of the highest damage ships when fitted for long range, out damaging even the Apocalypse if the Apoc is not fitted with 8 Tachyons (which most people don't because of the high fitting requirements).
and increasing shield hitpoints would be hard to balance, as you would have to fiddle around with the shield recharge times.
The final reason to not re-task the Maelstrom is that is an undeniably successful ship, with a real niche as an active shield tanker.
I have yet to see a role for the Tempest that I couldn't replicate with other ships, and do just as well, if not better.
The forum thread ont he balance of tier 3 BS by tuxford. There was stated that all but the hyperion would be sniper focused. And when people complained about maelstrom sluginess that was also the response.
And sorry but the maelstrom is not a successful ship. Its an" I avoided a complete failure" ship. Compare to the abaddon success. MAelstrom is NOT a high damage ship. With 3 damage mods it matches the damage of an abaddon with 2 damage mods. That with WORSE range and with a less useful tank (resist > shield boost bonus). Also that with a tiny cargo hold for a ship that eats cap like mad because of the shield booster .. a cargo hold that is shared with ammo for the most ammo hungry of ALL ships in eve.
Maelstrom would need to have SAME damage as abaddon with same number of damage mods (that because it has MORE drones to start with!) 7.5% Damage/level would result basically on same damage as it has now but a reasonable alpha strike, that would make it GOOD for sniping. A HP bonus would make it able to resist doomsdays as well as a rokh. A resist bonus would be even better.. but CCP would never give us that.
Sorry but maelstrom is NOT a good ship. The only good minmatar battleship is the typhoon.
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Seishi Maru
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.07.20 13:12:00 -
[203]
Just an illustration of how the maelstrom is not a GOOD ship.. only a mediocre one.
Abaddon clasical setup:
8 MP II Ammar navy MF
100MN MWD II Heavy Cap Booster II BEst named web and disruptor
2 Heat Sink II 2 1600RT 1 DC (named) 2 EANM II
3 trimark
classical 75M most damage drones
207K EHP 1025 dps at 15 km + 10 (half damage 25km)
Cap stable without MWD on
Best you can make with maelstrom to try match this
8 800mm II with rep fleet EMP
100MN MWD II best named web and disruptor HCap Booster II 1 XLarge Shield Booster II 1 Invul field II
Best named Damage control 3 GyroII 1 slot you can put somethign that uses no CPU (i prefer nanofiber)
3 Ogre II 2 hammer II
2 operation solidifier 1 cap safeguard rig ( the rigs are more variable on the maesltrom.. just doing a tank one to throw out the myth that maesltrom is a very good tanker)
1058 dps 3km+20 (half damage 23km) 60k EHP tanks 538 dps for 3 min 40s with MWD off
Do you really believe this maesltrom is even remotely as good as the abaddon? It has inferior defenses, inferior offense, worse capacitor dependency.
Maelstrom is NOT a good tank ship on normal combat conditions, and is NOT a very high damage ship. On all accounts is inferior to abaddon.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.07.21 11:57:00 -
[204]
There is a gazillion issues with minmatar battleships. And a gazillion ways to fix them.
Roles are relevant. Whoe wil be sniper.. tempest or maesltrom. Both have reasons to be close range (one have a tank bonus other have utility slots that are useless long range).
Also on the sniper role we need to check other races. Each one ideally would have a flavor. MEgatron has superior trackign, therefore can hit more easily smaller ships. Apocalypse... its an anwesome CONSTANT dps dealer at extreme ranges full of awesomeness. Rokh is a sniper even without trying.. allowing it to fit a massive buffer tank to increase survivability by 3 fold.
What to give minmatar that would not steal any of those roles? We had that in past.. and it can only be alpha strike. NO it does not need to be HUGE. We do not need to insta pop battlecruisers! But we need something to compensate for the LOWEST tracking and lowest dps sustained and the lowest hitpoint count of our snipers.
Most important.. WE DO NOT NEED ANOTHER MEGATRON OR ANOTHER APOCALYPSE.. we need a MINMATAR SNIPER STYLE!
Simple solutions change either the tempest or maelstrom ROF bonus into a 7.5% DAMAGE bonus. Simple and easy ...
Other simple solution.. increase damage modifier of arties by 25% and worsen rof by 15% (yes that would also increase DPS a tiny bit). Advantage is it fixes both tempest and maelstrom. That at LEAST! A really desireful change would be of even greater magnitude.
The complex solution for the tempest. Give 7th turret (no its not as hard as in the naglfar.. it already have plenty of space). Change rof bonus to 5% damage bonus. That would result same DPS as the maelstrom has now! So no its NOT overpowered! While would make it a very good long range bombardment platform. 4800 Volley damage with tremmor and 3 damage mods. YEah I know its a dream because somehow CCP will say that adding a turret would take 1.5 years... wish I coudl have this type of excuse at my work :(
That would characterize tempest as THE long range platform.
Problem remains that maelstrom is inferior. Check above comparison with abaddon. Make the damage graph and watch as the abaddon outdamages the maesltrom ALL ranges... that while using 1 less damage mod. That while having a much more interesting tank for pvp. That is more easily solved by boosting AC a bit.
-------------------------------------------------
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Vyktor Abyss
Gallente
The Abyss Corporation
Abyss Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.21 13:51:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Seishi Maru
The point is minmatar selective damage is a MYTH!
As it is now is only a MYTH!
While I sympathise that the base damages across multiple resists are generally lower than hybrid or laser ammo, there's nothing mythical about doing all damage types with your guns. The fact is Projectiles can do all damage types (though maybe not as effectively as you'd like), which combined with not using any cap, is a distinct advantage compared to other turret types.
For example - If you're fighting a blasterthron you can fit exclusively to tank Kin/Thermal (3 Kin/3 Therm hardeners) - to drasticly reduce the hybrid turret DPS (I'm not mentioning drone DPS or the possibility of missile launchers as we're talking turrets only) - whereas you'd need EANMs/Invulns or a wider variety (hence lower resists) of hardeners to stop the variety of Projectile damage. I'm not going to do the maths of the total relative DPS because thats not my point.
I agree it would really help Minmatar to beef up these ammo damage types to allow more selective damage, but really I personally think the bigger issue is with Omni-tanking. It requires no thought or planning.
EANMs and Invuln. Fields are, to be blunt, overpowered (IMHO) even despite the previous nerfs. I'd personally be happy to see those two modules vanish entirely forcing people to make real resistance choices. This certainly would help Minmatar (and Caldari) the most.
Back to current mechanics though and I do recognise a problem with Minmatar BS as previously stated; I don't know or like to speculate how best to rectify it myself, but am aiming by posting here to remind all the Minmatar pilots that whatever solution is found should also consider the distinct advantages (as stated above) of Projectiles when considering the overall balance.
Cheers.
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.07.21 13:54:00 -
[206]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
There is a gazillion issues with minmatar battleships. And a gazillion ways to fix them.
Roles are relevant. Whoe wil be sniper.. tempest or maesltrom. Both have reasons to be close range (one have a tank bonus other have utility slots that are useless long range).
Also on the sniper role we need to check other races. Each one ideally would have a flavor. MEgatron has superior trackign, therefore can hit more easily smaller ships. Apocalypse... its an anwesome CONSTANT dps dealer at extreme ranges full of awesomeness. Rokh is a sniper even without trying.. allowing it to fit a massive buffer tank to increase survivability by 3 fold.
What to give minmatar that would not steal any of those roles? We had that in past.. and it can only be alpha strike. NO it does not need to be HUGE. We do not need to insta pop battlecruisers! But we need something to compensate for the LOWEST tracking and lowest dps sustained and the lowest hitpoint count of our snipers.
Most important.. WE DO NOT NEED ANOTHER MEGATRON OR ANOTHER APOCALYPSE.. we need a MINMATAR SNIPER STYLE!
Simple solutions change either the tempest or maelstrom ROF bonus into a 7.5% DAMAGE bonus. Simple and easy ...
Other simple solution.. increase damage modifier of arties by 25% and worsen rof by 15% (yes that would also increase DPS a tiny bit). Advantage is it fixes both tempest and maelstrom. That at LEAST! A really desireful change would be of even greater magnitude.
The complex solution for the tempest. Give 7th turret (no its not as hard as in the naglfar.. it already have plenty of space). Change rof bonus to 5% damage bonus. That would result same DPS as the maelstrom has now! So no its NOT overpowered! While would make it a very good long range bombardment platform. 4800 Volley damage with tremmor and 3 damage mods. YEah I know its a dream because somehow CCP will say that adding a turret would take 1.5 years... wish I coudl have this type of excuse at my work :(
That would characterize tempest as THE long range platform.
Problem remains that maelstrom is inferior. Check above comparison with abaddon. Make the damage graph and watch as the abaddon outdamages the maesltrom ALL ranges... that while using 1 less damage mod. That while having a much more interesting tank for pvp. That is more easily solved by boosting AC a bit.
I've tried to give Minmatar battleships flexibility in how their damage is applied.
They can either go long range and outdamage the shorter ranged snipers, but have the dedicated long range ship (Rokh) out damage them, or go shorter ranged and out damage the long range ship, whilst losing out to the other snipers.
Combining this with the changes to agility and alpha, and the Tempest would have a useful role in fleet warfare as the versatile sniper that can outdamage different ships at different ranges, whilst being able to hit and run, and deliver high alphas.
I think I boosted ACs by about 12.5% which is half a damage bonus again on them, which should help the Maelstrom out a bit.
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For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (also with a review of the Muninn!) |
Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.07.21 13:57:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
Originally by: Seishi Maru
The point is minmatar selective damage is a MYTH!
As it is now is only a MYTH!
While I sympathise that the base damages across multiple resists are generally lower than hybrid or laser ammo, there's nothing mythical about doing all damage types with your guns. The fact is Projectiles can do all damage types (though maybe not as effectively as you'd like), which combined with not using any cap, is a distinct advantage compared to other turret types.
For example - If you're fighting a blasterthron you can fit exclusively to tank Kin/Thermal (3 Kin/3 Therm hardeners) - to drasticly reduce the hybrid turret DPS (I'm not mentioning drone DPS or the possibility of missile launchers as we're talking turrets only) - whereas you'd need EANMs/Invulns or a wider variety (hence lower resists) of hardeners to stop the variety of Projectile damage. I'm not going to do the maths of the total relative DPS because thats not my point.
I agree it would really help Minmatar to beef up these ammo damage types to allow more selective damage, but really I personally think the bigger issue is with Omni-tanking. It requires no thought or planning.
EANMs and Invuln. Fields are, to be blunt, overpowered (IMHO) even despite the previous nerfs. I'd personally be happy to see those two modules vanish entirely forcing people to make real resistance choices. This certainly would help Minmatar (and Caldari) the most.
Back to current mechanics though and I do recognise a problem with Minmatar BS as previously stated; I don't know or like to speculate how best to rectify it myself, but am aiming by posting here to remind all the Minmatar pilots that whatever solution is found should also consider the distinct advantages (as stated above) of Projectiles when considering the overall balance.
Cheers.
The best way to do it would be make 8 different ammo's, one long range and one short range for each damage type. That would give a bit of the flexibility you mention.
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For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (also with a review of the Muninn!) |
Vyktor Abyss
Gallente
The Abyss Corporation
Abyss Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.21 14:03:00 -
[208]
It certainly would be a good start to helping Projectiles more appealing.
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Bibbleibble
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Posted - 2009.07.21 14:25:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Vyktor Abyss
Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 21/07/2009 14:11:08
Hehe, are you describing Missiles to take the mick?
Anyway, improving the base damage types and ratios to be more resistance selective certainly would be a good start to helping Projectiles be more appealing.
They'd still have the split damage types, but would have a different dominant damage type for each ammo (Similar to EMP, with EM as the dominant type)
________________________________________________
For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (also with a review of the Muninn!) |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.07.21 16:09:00 -
[210]
Edited by: Kagura Nikon on 21/07/2009 16:11:42
Somethign as simple as making Fusion and pahsed plasma having same base damage as AM ... but on range of EMP would solve a LOT!! Really a LOT! The proton ammo coudl have its base damage droped to same as carb lead and get same range also.
The difference of my approach to yours on the balance of the sniping role is::
basically I tried to keep as simple as possible and straightforward .. otherwise I know CCP will find a reason to postpone it to after something AMAZINGLY urgent like ECM heavy drones Just changing 1 bonus or 2 values on a weapon is NOT work for more than 1 afternoon (that includes testing and 2 hours of beer time)
Anyway is so SIMPLE to fix minmatar battleships even so CCP manages to not do it.
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If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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