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Kagura Nikon Minmatar The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.07.21 16:17:00 - [211] EANM and invuls cannot be simply removed because woudl upset the balance on the slot layouts all over the board. Specially sheidl tankers that have naturally less slots available for tank. What I think could be made in place of the current omni modules is change them into 4 modules. Each one covering 3 resistances. For example... Invulnerability field except to EM ( 33% thermal 33% kin 33% explosive) invul field except to explosive.. 33% em ,thermal and kin.. etc... THAT would have solved the ammar damage issue without the exagerated boost of 25%-33% damage that they got form the native EM resist nerf. A nerf that made hardener fittings VANISH from game. Not that no one never warned CCP that this woudl happen.... noo imagine.. no one could perceive that. I am giving a slightly higher value because otherwise you know an uproar would happen. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Polinus Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.07.21 19:28:00 - [212] Strange that nightmareX has not appeared to say that tempest rules....
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.07.21 20:04:00 - [213] Originally by: Polinus Strange that nightmareX has not appeared to say that tempest rules.... I know... He/She is losing her edge... ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (also with a review of the Muninn!)
Polinus Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.07.22 11:55:00 - [214] Originally by: Bibbleibble Originally by: Polinus Strange that nightmareX has not appeared to say that tempest rules.... I know... He/She is losing her edge... What I am worried is.. IF he made into working on CCP... caused his disapearance.. and basically means that tempest will never ever be visited again :( begone BAD DREAM! BEGONE! ON a more serious note... I know this spells total failure.. but somehow I fail everytime I try to post an image at eve-files to link here. Think need to be on this thread. The graph of damage x distance of maelstrom with 800mm AC T2 Maelstrom with Neutron T2 and Maelstrom with Mega Pulses T2. And do not laugh on idea... because when you make it.. the only thing youc an do is cry at AC performance. The ships with a 33% damage bonus to AC gets worse performance with AC on WHOLE operational ranges than same ships using NON bonused weapons of other types.
Ecky X	Posted - 2009.07.23 15:34:00 - [215] Bump for Bibbleibble, first post was updated with summary so far.
Schmell	Posted - 2009.07.24 17:11:00 - [216] Edited by: Schmell on 24/07/2009 17:12:26 1) Bump 2) About fallof bonus for tempest: don`t forget that atm tempest with 2 sensorboosters (standart for most fleet setups), cant lock past 209 km`s (190 without gang bonuses). So even with fallof bonus, apoc will likely stay better.
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.07.24 18:33:00 - [217] Originally by: Schmell Edited by: Schmell on 24/07/2009 17:12:26 1) Bump 2) About fallof bonus for tempest: don`t forget that atm tempest with 2 sensorboosters (standart for most fleet setups), cant lock past 209 km`s (190 without gang bonuses). So even with fallof bonus, apoc will likely stay better. Good point about the lock range, I'll look into it. Though with the falloff based artillery, you don't need so many range mods, so you can have one less range mod and one more sensor booster. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (also with a review of the Muninn!)
Schmell	Posted - 2009.07.25 15:29:00 - [218] Originally by: Polinus What I am worried is.. IF he made into working on CCP... caused his disapearance.. and basically means that tempest will never ever be visited again :( begone BAD DREAM! BEGONE! ON a more serious note... I know this spells total failure.. but somehow I fail everytime I try to post an image at eve-files to link here. Think need to be on this thread. The graph of damage x distance of maelstrom with 800mm AC T2 Maelstrom with Neutron T2 and Maelstrom with Mega Pulses T2. And do not laugh on idea... because when you make it.. the only thing youc an do is cry at AC performance. The ships with a 33% damage bonus to AC gets worse performance with AC on WHOLE operational ranges than same ships using NON bonused weapons of other types. Well...there was an interview with one of GM`s, like a year or half earlier. There were several questions about tempest and all he said: "Tempest is fine". What makes me sad, that while having quite informative and constructive topic, there is completely no feedback from ccp. I doubt they even read it :(
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.07.25 15:52:00 - [219] Originally by: Schmell Originally by: Polinus What I am worried is.. IF he made into working on CCP... caused his disapearance.. and basically means that tempest will never ever be visited again :( begone BAD DREAM! BEGONE! ON a more serious note... I know this spells total failure.. but somehow I fail everytime I try to post an image at eve-files to link here. Think need to be on this thread. The graph of damage x distance of maelstrom with 800mm AC T2 Maelstrom with Neutron T2 and Maelstrom with Mega Pulses T2. And do not laugh on idea... because when you make it.. the only thing youc an do is cry at AC performance. The ships with a 33% damage bonus to AC gets worse performance with AC on WHOLE operational ranges than same ships using NON bonused weapons of other types. Well...there was an interview with one of GM`s, like a year or half earlier. There were several questions about tempest and all he said: "Tempest is fine". What makes me sad, that while having quite informative and constructive topic, there is completely no feedback from ccp. I doubt they even read it :( It would be nice to know what they think the Tempest can do that makes it good. At the moment, any role you name will be done better by another ship, and in certain situations, more flexibly. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (also with a review of the Muninn!)
Chris Sandstorm Minmatar	Posted - 2009.07.25 15:58:00 - [220] One thing that would fix some arty issues would be to change the 15% Heat ROF bonus to a damage one imo..
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.07.25 16:01:00 - [221] Originally by: Chris Sandstorm One thing that would fix some arty issues would be to change the 15% Heat ROF bonus to a damage one imo.. That might help... But how bad is it that overheating has to be a substitute for good game design? ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (also with a review of the Muninn!)
Chris Sandstorm Minmatar	Posted - 2009.07.25 16:07:00 - [222] Not thinking that it should substitute anything as such. There are some pretty clear issues with Large Projectiles as a whole and Minny BS. Just throwing out one idea that should be changed perhaps when/if they come around to fix the other issues.
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.07.25 16:18:00 - [223] Originally by: Chris Sandstorm Not thinking that it should substitute anything as such. There are some pretty clear issues with Large Projectiles as a whole and Minny BS. Just throwing out one idea that should be changed perhaps when/if they come around to fix the other issues. Don't take my words the wrong way; I only meant that CCP shouldn't just throw a bone to Minmatar pilots by way of overheating and then ignore them. The changes to the Naglfar have given me a little confidence that CCP isn't totally deaf to the Minmatar situation. But it takes a lot of persistence to make them notice the problems to any extent. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (also with a review of the Muninn!)
Chris Sandstorm Minmatar	Posted - 2009.07.25 16:31:00 - [224] Yep, understand what you meant now. Well im still hoping to see a boost at one point. Been using my alt past few days who can use Tach/MP II's with only BS 4 and to be honest i dont really see any reason to get a Minny BS for my main anymore whos a lot more skilled SP wise
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.07.25 16:48:00 - [225] Originally by: Chris Sandstorm Yep, understand what you meant now. Well im still hoping to see a boost at one point. Been using my alt past few days who can use Tach/MP II's with only BS 4 and to be honest i dont really see any reason to get a Minny BS for my main anymore whos a lot more skilled SP wise Thats the sad truth. Hopefully these changes would give Minmatar battleships a role that you can only fulfil with difficulty using another race though. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (also with a review of the Muninn!)
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.07.26 12:42:00 - [226] Bumping this, in the hope of more feedback. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (also with a review of the Muninn!)
Ruzel	Posted - 2009.07.26 15:39:00 - [227] I agree entirely. Shelved all my Minmatar Battleships after finally giving up. Using Gallente now and things have never been better. When i first started playing i was under the impression Minmatar would produce excellent ships because they didn't spend a great deal of time making the ships 'pretty' like other races, but it turns out Minmatar engineers are just bad, and the ships are ugly because they're incompetant. They do make some good frigates, so there's that. I just wouldn't recommend going too far past there. Every other race has better options in large ships.
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.07.27 09:04:00 - [228] Originally by: Ruzel I agree entirely. Shelved all my Minmatar Battleships after finally giving up. Using Gallente now and things have never been better. When i first started playing i was under the impression Minmatar would produce excellent ships because they didn't spend a great deal of time making the ships 'pretty' like other races, but it turns out Minmatar engineers are just bad, and the ships are ugly because they're incompetant. They do make some good frigates, so there's that. I just wouldn't recommend going too far past there. Every other race has better options in large ships. Thats not quite true; some of their cruiser sized ships are nice. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (also with a review of the Muninn!)
Ysabelle nKataros Evolution	Posted - 2009.07.27 10:26:00 - [229] Recently in the Dev Blog CCP expressed a desire to know why the Minmatar Tier 1 and Tier 2 BS are so unpopular. Here are the factors that I think contribute. Reason 1: Starting players. I don't recall the exact numbers but aren't Minmatar the least popular choice for starting race? Most pilots choose the race they eventually specialise in (with the exception of the raven. Damn those ravens ). I don't think this is such a bad thing, as it fits the Prime Fiction. Plus, I'm told the starting proportions are more balanced now than they used to be. Reason 2: Typhoon requires many skills. To be effective in the Typhoon, you need good missile skills, drone skills AND gunnery skills. This is a very daunting prospect for players, who view the amount of time required to build up an extra combat specialisation as something that could be invested much more profitably in a different area. Please note that I'm not saying this is a bad thing - I love the typhoon, it's a fearsome ship in the right hands. If CCP want to "solve" this problem, one possibility would be to make it even more dangerous - an extra mid slot or ROF bonuses for example. The use of a ship is a balance between its effectiveness and ease of use. Minmatar are not intended to be damage absorbers, they're meant to be vicious chew-your-face-off damage dealers, so let's make them do damage equivalent to their reputation. Reason 3: Tempest is a weakling, especially in fleet. Over the past few years, the other races' ranged turret battleships have been boosted; the Apoc is now a very sexy ship, the Megathron doesn't fall far short, and the Rokh has an insane range. The Tempest has relatively low damage due to only having 6 turrets, pathetic range (140km optimal + 44 falloff? Come on, I know Minmatar ships are supposed to work in falloff, but that's ridiculous compared to the Apoc and Mega which top 200 optimal) and tracking that is just insufficient to compensate for its other failings. At short range, its tanking ability is okay-ish but still nowhere near any of the other races' and the Minmatar speed advantage is fairly useless in a ship of that size. Those are my thoughts on the reasons. BoB: When we have fleet battles, our killboard crashes
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2009.07.27 11:26:00 - [230] Originally by: Ruzel I agree entirely. Shelved all my Minmatar Battleships after finally giving up. Using Gallente now and things have never been better. When i first started playing i was under the impression Minmatar would produce excellent ships because they didn't spend a great deal of time making the ships 'pretty' like other races, but it turns out Minmatar engineers are just bad, and the ships are ugly because they're incompetant. They do make some good frigates, so there's that. I just wouldn't recommend going too far past there. Every other race has better options in large ships. If you go back to Red moon rising.. before the tier 3 existed. Back then Minmatar battleships were good. Nos worked so tempest high slots were mighty (neuts are okish at most when compared to old NOS).. ECM was useful on non caldari ships,, so Tempest extra mid was useful. Ships had less Hitpoints... so Alpha strike was useful.... T2 ammo was not nerfed.. so the range inferiority of tempest was a no concern... NAVY AMMO WAS NOT ALL AROUND! So everyone had to use t2 short range ammo.. (at t2 ammo minmatar ammo matches hybrids.. but the T1 and faction one are FAR FAR inferior. Therefore minmatar still have to use T2 ammo with tracking penalties while other races don't Back then you could specialize a ship.. so typhoons speed was awesome.. back then there were only 20 km points and webs could not overheat to 13 km.. therefore kiting in a tempest was more effective. Back then Our battleships took 33% less damage from EM than they do now (while other races is only 25% difference)... Back then caldari batleships didn't weight less than minmatar ones.... Well have not been 3 good years these last 3 for minmatar battleships... Read all this CCP, and dare to say that minmatar battleships are not suffering...
Karl Luckner	Posted - 2009.07.27 13:32:00 - [231] I think just giving projectile ammo a slight damage boost + adding falloff bonus to tracking enhancers/computers + falloff script would be a good start.
Ecky X	Posted - 2009.07.27 20:23:00 - [232] Originally by: Karl Luckner I think just giving projectile ammo a slight damage boost + adding falloff bonus to tracking enhancers/computers + falloff script would be a good start. Another interesting idea would be to have all Minmatar ammo give the same optimal range, but add or subtract falloff. Might work?
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.07.27 20:46:00 - [233] Edited by: Bibbleibble on 27/07/2009 20:57:18 Originally by: Ecky X Originally by: Karl Luckner I think just giving projectile ammo a slight damage boost + adding falloff bonus to tracking enhancers/computers + falloff script would be a good start. Another interesting idea would be to have all Minmatar ammo give the same optimal range, but add or subtract falloff. Might work? It would be good if all the short range ammos (EMP, Fusion, Phased Plasma and Titanium Sabot) had the same base damage and range (11 damage, no falloff bonus), whilst long range ammo had the same damage as depleted uranium, but had a 1.5x modifier to falloff (keeping barrage in business, as it does more damage) ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!)
Jofridur	Posted - 2009.07.28 00:16:00 - [234] I'd like to see AC's get ridiculous falloff. For example T1 ammo in 800mm AC now: 4.8 Optimal + 16 km falloff Increase it by 50-200% 4.8 Optimal + 25-32 km falloff That would mean barrage: 37-47km falloff Another idea is to do a more modest boost to falloff and change the projectile ammos drastically. * No optimal modifiers at all, resulting in more freedom with damage types, they should also all be the same total amount of damage, except EXP which should be higher. * Falloff modifiers ranging from 1 to 2-3 depending on ammo (1=base falloff, 2=double falloff, 3=triple falloff) * Small optimal boost. As for the Tempest... Give it 7-8 turretslots. Or 150m3 dronebay (5xLarge+5xSmall/10xMedium+5xSmall drones) and 125MB drone BW? Just throwing these out there, not alot of research behind these.
Markus Reese Caldari	Posted - 2009.07.28 00:30:00 - [235] The problem with minmie bs is the lack of one thing that makes other minmatar ships advantageous. Where is the speed? Why do the minmatar ships, pride of speed freaks, have battleships that go the same as their level counterparts for caldari and amarr. I mean WTF? Why would the minmatar build a ship that is slow as amarrian without the tank? Wonder if that was a CCP error as the hyperion for some reason is able to go faster than a tempest? Why does it get like 20% more speed over the other faction's counterparts? Minmatar are speed, give em some more speed.
Hrodgar Ortal	Posted - 2009.07.28 04:58:00 - [236] Originally by: Markus Reese The problem with minmie bs is the lack of one thing that makes other minmatar ships advantageous. Where is the speed? Why do the minmatar ships, pride of speed freaks, have battleships that go the same as their level counterparts for caldari and amarr. I mean WTF? Why would the minmatar build a ship that is slow as amarrian without the tank? Wonder if that was a CCP error as the hyperion for some reason is able to go faster than a tempest? Why does it get like 20% more speed over the other faction's counterparts? Minmatar are speed, give em some more speed. Are you sure that speed is that big an advantage in a fleet battle? At 150km or so your transversal won't be very large anyway.
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.07.28 05:31:00 - [237] Originally by: Markus Reese The problem with minmie bs is the lack of one thing that makes other minmatar ships advantageous. Where is the speed? Why do the minmatar ships, pride of speed freaks, have battleships that go the same as their level counterparts for caldari and amarr. I mean WTF? Why would the minmatar build a ship that is slow as amarrian without the tank? Wonder if that was a CCP error as the hyperion for some reason is able to go faster than a tempest? Why does it get like 20% more speed over the other faction's counterparts? Minmatar are speed, give em some more speed. They have a higher base speed, but for some reason have more mass, meaning that with an afterburner/MWD you get less of a boost. The increased agility of the Tempest is in some ways better than increased speed, as if it is intended to be a fleet sniper, the extra agility is worth far more than the extra speed. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!)
Orakkus Minmatar m3 Corp	Posted - 2009.07.28 17:31:00 - [238] Okay, here's how I see this whole deal.. and I love the Tempest. We got actually ALOT of problems with the Battleship class for Minmatar in general, and the related buffs and nerfs have just accentuated the problem. So, really a whole re-write might be in order. Minmatar are the holders of the Active Shield Tanking dogma despite the fact that that it is subpar to all other tanking types (it's the least efficient) and is often ignored by the pod pilot community unless the ship has a bonus to it. CCP is aware of how subpar it is because in addition to Active Shield tanking, they gave Minmatar ships smaller sigs and faster ships. However, at the battleship level, these advantages aren't very beneficial and disappear in medium to long range fleet engagements. Each Race appears to have one Sniper-class ship (new), one Damage Dealer, and one Utility battleship. I say that the sniper class is new because really, it was really the Tempest that introduced the possibility of a "sniper" ship to Eve as being something practical. For Minmatar: Typhoon - Utility Tempest - Damage Dealer Maelstrom - Sniper Typhoon The Typhoon is a stellar ship but only after a pilot gets an ungodly amount of SP. It requires one tanking skill (preferably Armor), and three seperate and unrelated combat weapon systems just to operate it in its most basic PVP mode. Dominix requires only one weapon system (drones) and one tanking system. Same with the Armageddon. The Scorpion requires one tanking system, one weapon system, and one E-War system. This is entirely too much SP for a Tier one ship. Possible Fix: Drop the 8 highslots for 7 and add a midslot. Change turrets from 4/4 to 5/4. Increase drone bay size. Tempest The Tempest, once the pride of the Minmatar fleet (and in my opinion brought about the "sniper" class category), has so much of its individuality removed from recent buffs and game changes. As mentioned before, if there is a change in the game, it will negatively effect the Tempest as it relies on so many support skills to give it an edge. In addition, what strengths the Tempest does have do not play well in a typical fleet. The Tempest, in its current state with six guns, has 96% of the damage capability of the eight gunned Maelstrom using the same weapons at the same skill level. A Tempest was meant to be strong at fast speeds and I think the thought pattern originally was to have the Tempest as a close/medium range DPS using an Afterburner to maintain both distance, speed, and agility while pounding the enemy at fallout distances. Tank was an Active shield tank with multiple damage modifiers in the lows. In that regard then, the Tempest actually could field two high utility slots, at least one medium utility slot, and multiple lows for ship support. In theory, this should be a very tough opponent one on one. Sadly, with one versus one battles a rarity, the Tempest loses its luster. Possible Fix: Reduce the sig radius to 300 from 340. Any buffs to Shield Boosting, ACs, Arties will greatly improve this ship. Maelstrom The Maelstrom is first "pure" damage ship for the Minmatar. Its focus is purely being a sniper. It has just enough midslots for a mediocre active tank, but the lows and the mids can easily allow it to reach the golden 250k mark. It can be used in other ways, but its pretty cut and dry that this was a simple design. Possible Fix: None really. This ship will get boosted if they merely fix arties. If they boost shield boosting, it is possible this ship will be overpowered. Making Part Two.. I only do diplomancy because I haven't found you.. yet.
Orakkus Minmatar m3 Corp	Posted - 2009.07.28 17:31:00 - [239] For part two I only do diplomancy because I haven't found you.. yet.
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2009.07.28 18:23:00 - [240] You make some good points, but I have tried to avoid tinkering with the other Minmatar battleships beyond giving them slight mass reductions, and some generic fixes to autocannons. Your image of the Tempest as a mid range brawling ship is aided substantially by my proposed 10% falloff bonus, and the loss in peak DPS is easily offset by the extra falloff. With the re-distribution of Hp (switching some from shield to armour) it would also be an effective technique to employ in mid sized RR gangs, at least in my view. The one of the problem with artilleries at the moment is that they can't project their damage out to 250km to any real degree. Even with a Maelstrom filled with Tracking Computers and Enhancers, they only reach 162+44km. That means that at 250km they are doing about 17% of their true DPS. My changes to the range of artillery mean that whilst they do less damage at shorter ranges, they will be able to throw more damage out to longer ranges. Also, the Maelstrom must be one of the worst designed ships if it is intended to be a sniper ship. It would have to be an artillery boat, but as it only has an ROF bonus, it loses out on the alpha strike that artillery should have. It also happens to have a shield boost bonus, despite that active tanking is useless in fleet combat, and by extension, sniping combat. I did propose making all the Projectile ROF bonuses on the battleships become 7.5% per level rather than 5%, which would have given them a little bit extra punch, but some people didn't seem to like it, despite it solving all the problems. A boost to base ROF or damage would have about the same effect, so I changed it to give AC's a 12.5% base boost to damage. If anything, increase the damage rather than the ROF on artillery, as it is supposed to be the highest single shot, where as now the highest shot is the Tachyon laser. About the ammo, I think that if it was all standardised at two different types of ammo for each damage type (one long range and one short range, with the long range one boosting falloff as well as optimal) with the same base total of damage for all the short range and and a lower base damage for all the long range ammo, it would make more sense. ________________________________________________ For changes to Minmatar Battleships click here (Now with added summary!)

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