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Atrum Talio
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.07.05 13:21:00 -
[1]
I thought I would take an opportunity to make a shameless plug for the Podlog Community and my own blog Dark Retribution. I have posted a sub page on the blog that walks through the components in building a great EVE gaming machine on a budget. This is not a collection of thoughts made from reading various reviews. I am a computer reviewer by profession and all the parts I have listed I have actually used and tested. This particular build has been tested over an extended period playing EVE and other components have been mixed in during the testing to find what I think is the compromise between value and performance.
I would love to hear feedback and comments either at the blog or in this thread.
EVE Hardware
Enjoy....
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Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
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Posted - 2009.07.05 14:55:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Super Whopper on 05/07/2009 14:59:14
 Quote:
Choosing a processor for an EVE machine is really easy since EVE is not a CPU intense game.
Which game are you playing again and how long have you played it? EVE is a very CPU intensive game and you are very, very wrong about this.
Quote:
While some may be concerned that this only being a 512 meg model I can tell you have have dual boxed with this card just fine and no performance hit.
EVE is a CPU intensive game, the video card has very little to do with this.
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under peak load is only hitting about 375 watts
Quote:
Antec has also released a version with a 430 watt PSU included
With an efficiency of 80% this PSU will deliver 344W. Where does the PC get the rest of its power from?
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7 is a solid clean up of Vista and offers great performance and stable operation in itĘs beta
Is that ignoring the fact that Windows 7 is Win 6.1 (Vista was Win 6 and 7 has a few optimisations) and all the bugs in beta?
What kind of computer tech are you? You know very little about EVE and how it works.
I run my 4870 1GB at the minimal speed CCC allows, which is 500/465, and there is, usually, no difference between that and running it at 850/1000. However, my overclocked CPU offers a far greater fps increase. Running six clients on a single core with a high-end video card is impossible but a tri core coupled with a 7300GT will be just fine. Dual core is the bare minimum but I would minimise it to two cores per client as, otherwise, performance will drop.
Vista and Windows 7 are nearly the same OS's. Seven has a few, mainly minor, optimisations that could be added to Vista through a major Service Pack. The reason why 7 is being released is because moronic OEM's messed up the release of Vista by installing it on hardware that can't support it, coupled with all the useless bloatware they install. If 7 was that different to Vista new drivers would have to be developed and Vista drivers would not be compatible with 7.
The one major thing you were, somewhat, right about is XFire/SLI being useless below 1680x1050 and even then there're situations in which it can be very handy but I won't go into professional usages of the 4870X2 or GTX 295.
If you are serious about this blog and it being advice then I suggest you do a little more research and learn about EVE and PC's, though the one thing I liked about your article was that you're not recommending some hyped up, overpriced, Asus board but a good quality, cheap, Gigabyte one.
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LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.07.05 15:41:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Super Whopper
Edited by: Super Whopper on 05/07/2009 14:59:14
Quote:
Choosing a processor for an EVE machine is really easy since EVE is not a CPU intense game.
Which game are you playing again and how long have you played it? EVE is a very CPU intensive game and you are very, very wrong about this.
The above poster is correct.
Get a CPU, and get a good one. There was some statistics from a dev recently, showing how the performance of a new sub-system of the EVE client, which scaled linearly with how many cores you have.
So get a high-end dual-core or a really good Quad-core.
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Lork Niffle
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.07.05 15:41:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Lork Niffle on 05/07/2009 15:43:37
Edited by: Lork Niffle on 05/07/2009 15:42:42
I believe you are wrong about EVE now being CPU intensive. Sure one you reach 5 client the CPU will chug a bit but way before that the RAM will completely run out. I was on a 2.00GHz 4400 and it was at 100% from 1 client to 4 clients and i noticed no slow down from the CPu being overloaded. but its 2GB of RAM ran out on the 3rd client.
From what i've noticed its about 400MB of RAM per client and you'll want to be 10% free once you run all your clients. That is with resource caching off of course since with it on it can go right up to 1GB or RAM.
Back in the classic client it was strictly limited to your CPU speed to how many clients you could since it ONLY used the CPU but now the CPU does very little on the client and its all up to the RAM and VRAM to do the rest.
And for the PSU comment i was on a 220W PSU which was right on the limit and the computer ran at 100% perfectly.
Ah just to say that the CPU will make a difference but once you have a decent dual core, like a 2.50GHz Intel or a Phenom you'll be fine CPU wise. The GPU and RAM make all the difference from then on.
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Read my bio ingame for tips on how to live and not be called nasty names by me. |
LaVista Vista
Conservative Shenanigans Party
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Posted - 2009.07.05 15:45:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Lork Niffle
Edited by: Lork Niffle on 05/07/2009 15:43:37
Edited by: Lork Niffle on 05/07/2009 15:42:42
I believe you are wrong about EVE now being CPU intensive. Sure one you reach 5 client the CPU will chug a bit but way before that the RAM will completely run out. I was on a 2.00GHz 4400 and it was at 100% from 1 client to 4 clients and i noticed no slow down from the CPu being overloaded. but its 2GB of RAM ran out on the 3rd client.
From what i've noticed its about 400MB of RAM per client and you'll want to be 10% free once you run all your clients. That is with resource caching off of course since with it on it can go right up to 1GB or RAM.
Back in the classic client it was strictly limited to your CPU speed to how many clients you could since it ONLY used the CPU but now the CPU does very little on the client and its all up to the RAM and VRAM to do the rest.
And for the PSU comment i was on a 220W PSU which was right on the limit and the computer ran at 100% perfectly.
Ah just to say that the CPU will make a difference but once you have a decent dual core, like a 2.50GHz Intel or a Phenom you'll be fine CPU wise. The GPU and RAM make all the difference from then on.
Any recent graphics-card will run EVE with everything maxed out. What is going to limit you, is your CPU. A lot of things in EVE are extremely CPU intensive, because of the fact that the server only updates the state every so often, the client has to predict things.
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Demorar Borgear
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Posted - 2009.07.05 17:21:00 -
[6]
EvE is NOT cpu intensive....if you're using more than 10% of your cpu to run it you are using a Pentium chip anyone who know's the difference between AMD and Intel workings will know why...Right now I have EvE full premium client with all the trimmings to max, winamp,Opera,x-fire and few other programs in the background. CPU usage-6% tops...AMD FX-60 Dual Core 2.6 Gig in case you don't know thats a socket 939 chip pretty old tech now. Saying the GPU doesn't need to be very high end is true in that as long it can handle shader model 2 it will run EvE but saying it isnt important is just plain ignorance. EvE uses a fair bit of Ram nothing excessive, 3 gig here with all the **** running i mentioned RAM usage is at 46%.
t;dr-CPU isnt as important as GPU and RAM anyone who says otherwise is misguided.
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WarpTo SafeSpot
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Posted - 2009.07.05 17:22:00 -
[7]
Meh.
My AMD 3800 X2 (dual core), 7600GT and 2 GB of RAM allow me to run 2 EVE clients at the same time. Other programs are in use, including VM Ware in the background running Linux or 7. There were other users logged into the PC at the same time.
You don't need a high end PC to run EVE.
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Kletus Snoe
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.07.05 17:54:00 -
[8]
First let me thank everyone for taking the time to stop by the blog and commenting. It seems from the comments posted here however that some people are taking parts of the blog out of context and perhaps I did not explain some positions as well as I could.
My reference to EVE not being CPU intensive is in reference to the power gamers that think you need a Core i7 running at 4 Ghz to have a real computer. When compared to these kinds of gamers EVE is very CPU light. Able to run great on very inexpensive processors.
In particular my comment was directed to say that yes a triple core is more than able to get maximum effect from EVE so instead of buying a $250 plus processor you could get by with a $130 processor just as well.
BTW I stand behind that claim as I have run EVE in dual client with the setup I suggested at over 100 FPS and zero issues. This is not an opinion but a tested and provable fact.
Next it seems someone thought that by my saying that 512 meg is enough to run EVE I was calling it a GPU intensive game. AGain this seems to be taken out of context as I was saying that the video memory being only 512 was NOT a limiting factor. Again many gamers frown now at less than a 1 gig video card. This is actually a big misoconception as in most case at 1680x1050 or less there is no need for more than 512 meg.
I love the attack on Windows 7 as being selected. It seems someone thought I was bashing Vista. I was not. I am a big Vista fan and even teach classes on using it. Windows 7 however is the future OS for Microsoft and if you are building a new system it makes no sense not to make use of the most up to date OS. Windows 7 has impressed me with it's stability even in Beta and this is due to heavy reliance on Vista code. However there is no reasomn not to suggest Windows 7 for a new build.
Finally in closing one individual question my tech skills and suggest I do more research in computers and EVE before making such an article. In reply let me say that you need to take your own advice as you seem to have no understanding how power effeciency or 80 plus certification works.
With that being said I stand by my build suggestions. As I said in the blog you can get by with a lesser system but in my opinion the cost savings do not justify the performance lose over all. I have posted what I beleiev is the most cost effective build to get maximum benefit out of play for EVE and as a general gaming machine.
This is not a build I pulled out of the air but one I have tested and used heavily to verify it's potential before making a suggestion.
Thanks again for taking to time to read the blog. I will have more back story posted later this week and then it will be moved to a story area with the main page being taken up by a more ships log style.
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Atrum Talio
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.07.05 17:58:00 -
[9]
First let me thank everyone for taking the time to stop by the blog and commenting. It seems from the comments posted here however that some people are taking parts of the blog out of context and perhaps I did not explain some positions as well as I could.
My reference to EVE not being CPU intensive is in reference to the power gamers that think you need a Core i7 running at 4 Ghz to have a real computer. When compared to these kinds of gamers EVE is very CPU light. Able to run great on very inexpensive processors.
In particular my comment was directed to say that yes a triple core is more than able to get maximum effect from EVE so instead of buying a $250 plus processor you could get by with a $130 processor just as well.
BTW I stand behind that claim as I have run EVE in dual client with the setup I suggested at over 100 FPS and zero issues. This is not an opinion but a tested and provable fact.
Next it seems someone thought that by my saying that 512 meg is enough to run EVE I was calling it a GPU intensive game. AGain this seems to be taken out of context as I was saying that the video memory being only 512 was NOT a limiting factor. Again many gamers frown now at less than a 1 gig video card. This is actually a big misoconception as in most case at 1680x1050 or less there is no need for more than 512 meg.
I love the attack on Windows 7 as being selected. It seems someone thought I was bashing Vista. I was not. I am a big Vista fan and even teach classes on using it. Windows 7 however is the future OS for Microsoft and if you are building a new system it makes no sense not to make use of the most up to date OS. Windows 7 has impressed me with it's stability even in Beta and this is due to heavy reliance on Vista code. However there is no reasomn not to suggest Windows 7 for a new build.
Finally in closing one individual question my tech skills and suggest I do more research in computers and EVE before making such an article. In reply let me say that you need to take your own advice as you seem to have no understanding how power effeciency or 80 plus certification works.
With that being said I stand by my build suggestions. As I said in the blog you can get by with a lesser system but in my opinion the cost savings do not justify the performance lose over all. I have posted what I beleiev is the most cost effective build to get maximum benefit out of play for EVE and as a general gaming machine.
This is not a build I pulled out of the air but one I have tested and used heavily to verify it's potential before making a suggestion.
Thanks again for taking to time to read the blog. I will have more back story posted later this week and then it will be moved to a story area with the main page being taken up by a more ships log style.
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Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:12:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Demorar Borgear
t;dr-CPU isnt as important as GPU and RAM anyone who says otherwise is misguided.
Run Vista, shove 8GB of ram in your system, underclock your CPU to 1GHz and then come and tell us EVE is not CPU intensive.
Not only have the devs themselves admitted EVE is CPU bottlenecked and is multi-threaded (sound runs on a different core to the actual client) but testing has proved this. Going from 2.4 to 3.6 boosted my fps from in the 100'a to over 200 and that's with an underclocked video card, which proves that memory speed, cache speed and simple CPU speed all make a huge difference. Once I turn my video card up to 850/4000 I get over 300 fps. You can argue all you want but the fps don't lie.
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Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:17:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Atrum Talio
My reference to EVE not being CPU intensive is in reference to the power gamers that think you need a Core i7 running at 4 Ghz to have a real computer. When compared to these kinds of gamers EVE is very CPU light. Able to run great on very inexpensive processors.
In particular my comment was directed to say that yes a triple core is more than able to get maximum effect from EVE so instead of buying a $250 plus processor you could get by with a $130 processor just as well.
Those who brag about their i7 running EVE at 500fps are doing nothing but spending loads of money just to show off.
Also EVE runs just fine on a $50 CPU, $130 is even OTT when it comes to running one EVE client.
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Zaerlorth Maelkor
The Maverick Navy
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.05 18:59:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Atrum Talio
BTW I stand behind that claim as I have run EVE in dual client with the setup I suggested at over 100 FPS and zero issues. This is not an opinion but a tested and provable fact.
umm no. EVE is hardcapped at 60 fps.
However, you might want to consider a few things, first of all; I now have one of those annoying sigs.
second; you should probably move on to some more interesting things than reading this sig.
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Blane Xero
Amarr
The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.07.05 19:01:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Zaerlorth Maelkor
Originally by: Atrum Talio
BTW I stand behind that claim as I have run EVE in dual client with the setup I suggested at over 100 FPS and zero issues. This is not an opinion but a tested and provable fact.
umm no. EVE is hardcapped at 60 fps.
Only with Interval 1, with Immediate or Default its uncapped.
_____________________________________
Haruhiist since December 2008
Originally by: CCP Fallout
:facepalm:
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Arcenum
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Posted - 2009.07.05 19:04:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Arcenum on 05/07/2009 19:05:58
I have been restraining myself from posting here as it seems to be a rather trivial thread.
Okay, a $50 CPU, such as an Intel E5200 is a 2.5GHz Dual core... Or we can go really cheap and settle for an Intel E1400 which is a 2GHz dual core, so, where do I purchase this fantastic CPU you have which is under 1GHz? I am not arguing that EVE is not CPU dependent, I am arguing that it is not CPU intensive. For one, I use to play EVE on a P4 - 2.1GHz, with 512MB of ram and a generic 6600 nvidia. Mind you this system was back in 2006, and it purred like a kitten. Last year, I was playing EVE on a 1.8GHz dual core laptop, 1GB of RAM, and a 8600M nvidia, it also purred like a kitten.
I also think you misunderstood the OP when he was talking about i7 OC to 4GHZ being a real computer, because that is the circle he is in. His business is that. My business and life is pretty much that, I run a small service in constructing budget gaming computers. He never once said people were playing EVE on an i7, nor getting the 500FPS. He is comparing his interpretation of an intensive CPU sucker like encoding, to the amount that eve uses. Honestly if anything, one of the better things CCP has done is keep the CPU usage low. I am sure those that have an i7 and play EVE also do other stuff on their computer that would require the investment in an i7.
I'd also like to state that EVE has little love for dual cards, SLI or crossfire in my experience. In my current rig, the use of a single card gets a three fold boost over using both.
Personally, my only fault with the OP is the use of AMD and ATI. Yet, he chose that so good on him, support the underdog.
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Lao Xin
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Posted - 2009.07.05 20:24:00 -
[15]
OP wins the post. He made more sense than anyone so far. Thanks for the page!
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Agent Known
Apotheosis of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.07.05 20:24:00 -
[16]
I bought an E7300 (core 2 duo 2.66GHz) along with a Radeon 4850 HD. Two parts for less than $200, and I can run up to 4 clients in windowed mode on maximum settings (however, I do admit that the FPS is fairly poor  ), two on TQ and two on SiSi. It doesn't take much to build an EVE-capable machine. A good dual core and a mid-range graphics card will do the job nicely if you're not your own 100 man blob.
Hell, I can even leave both running in the background (sometimes auto-piloting through high-sec) and suffer 0 performance loss when doing other things, including playing another game!
This is not to say that EVE isn't CPU/GPU intensive, because it is, but people drastically overspend on a rig specifically for EVE when in fact it doesn't take really much to do so. In total my machine cost under $500 (including case, fans, etc), so...
That's just my 0.02 isk.
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Max Hardcase
Art of War
Cult of War
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Posted - 2009.07.05 21:11:00 -
[17]
Yo whopper, back to basics 101 please, effiency is related to what the PSU actually draws from the wall socket under various loads, not the wattage that its rated for.
At 430 watts load and 80% eff it would draw ~538 watts from the wall socket.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.07.05 21:25:00 -
[18]
I personally wonder how this would be better than all the other example pc builds you can find on the internet. Eve isnt that different from other games, and your end result isnt that cheap. (also wtf, 100 dollar for keyboard/mouse if you want a relative cheap comp?).
About the CPU: Both sides are correct. Eve is a relative cpu intensive game. But still basicly any cpu will have no problems at all running eve. If increasing cpu or gpu is more usefull with depend on how many clients you got running, how you got them running, screen resolution, what they are doing (fleet battle/market alt), etc.
Also it would be easy if you add some more numbers (like how much GB memory are you talking about).
Finally how did you measure that power consumption. I am pretty sure there is no way that system would require 375W (maybe it would be 375 under full load when your psu isnt very efficient and you are measuring the power drawn by the entire system, including psu).
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Atrum Talio
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.07.06 00:56:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Furb Killer
Finally how did you measure that power consumption. I am pretty sure there is no way that system would require 375W (maybe it would be 375 under full load when your psu isnt very efficient and you are measuring the power drawn by the entire system, including psu).
First thanks to everyone for visiting the blog and for the kind comments. To the person commenting on the choice of AMD/ATI. For the money AMD is hard to beat when it comes to keep price low and performance high. There is nothing wrong with a solid Core2 build either and nVidia makes some great cards. What IO posted is the parts I can swear by becuase I have the most experience with them.
Furb the numbers come from two soruces, the actual number listed on the page is derived from using a PSU calculator that can be found on the Antec website. I assume a full load of fans in an Antec Three Hundred case as well as 3 USB devices drawing juice. In theory the load it gives is the maximum load the system will need when under 100% load.
My actual testing came in under this. Using a Kill-a-watt device I was only able to hit 340 watts with two instances of EVE running. So for purposes of demonstration I felt it was safest to list the theoretic maximum power usage.
Oh in reference to your question on the RAM, 4 Gig was the amount I suggest.
The numbers I ran where just what I considered the best value in the build giving the most out of the gate performance, as well as potential performance while keeping the cost down. As for the $100 keyboard and mouse that was just to illustrate the point.
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Cors
It's A Trap
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Posted - 2009.07.06 01:51:00 -
[20]
You guys are getting bogged down in the semantics of one sentence.
The premise of the article was a budget computer that would run EVE.
It's been common knowledge that you can use a 2-3ghz CPU, 4 gigs of ram, a 7200RPM hdd, and a mid end video card, with a 500watt psu, dvd player, for about 600$ US.
This is a BUDGET computer.
Yes, a higher end CPU will help. YES a newer generation quad core CPU will help. YES a Raptor/SSD hdd will help, YES a higher end video card will help.
BUT for a budget computer, what the op listed will work fine.
My self, I'd not take that into PVP.
But it'd be fine for general use. Missions, ratting, hauling, mining, market *****ing, WH's and so on. But for PVP. 100vs100 200vs200 500vs500? No way in hell.
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Xianthar
STK Scientific
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.07.06 02:44:00 -
[21]
article fails to touch on the most important aspects of eve performance.
stop talking about number of cores, the CPU intensive part of the client is in python and stuck on one core, if you don't understand why google "python global interpreter lock". Additional core will only really help run additional clients. The single core throughout is what will reduce your grid load times and increase FPS in large scale engagements.
Eve is a VERY VERY CPU intensive game, yes spinning in station with V-sync enable i sit at ~5% cpu usage from eve. However, jump into a 800 man fleet fight and guess what? grid load and FPS are CPU limited, you can watch it happen. For example turning off brackets doesn't save much drawing time it saves CPU cycles calculating locations.
You really need to isolate use cases for eve. For example grinding missions in empire, running 6 industrial accounts at once, jumping 2 cap ship accounts into a fleet fight. These all have different requirements and they all rely on either CPU speed, CPU cores or amount of RAM. These are the things you need to place emphasis on.
For those who say eve isn't CPU limited, i assume you never engage in large scale combat, running around high sec carebearing doesn't push anything hard.
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Draeca
Tharri and Co.
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Posted - 2009.07.06 02:50:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Draeca on 06/07/2009 02:56:23
Edited by: Draeca on 06/07/2009 02:55:56
Originally by: Cors
My self, I'd not take that into PVP.
But it'd be fine for general use. Missions, ratting, hauling, mining, market *****ing, WH's and so on. But for PVP. 100vs100 200vs200 500vs500? No way in hell.
Err.. What?
I have a lot less powerful and older rig than the one on the OP's blog. Core 2 e4600, 2gb ram, 512mb radeon hd3850 and the whole thing cost just a bit under 400e about a year ago when I bought the components.
It's running perfectly smoothly on full details (1440x900 windowed, 1680x1050 desktop res) and I'm even frapsing when pvp'ing without any problems. Even with 2 clients.
Haven't done those 200vs200+ scale fights though, but I'd dare to say that the possible problems in them wouldn't lie in my rig, but in the servers running the show.
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