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Stealth Bombers vs Dreadnaughts & Carriers

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Aranis Lyautey Rising Ashes Inc. SATRAPY	Posted - 2009.07.06 11:03:00 - [1] After watching National GeographicÆs Generals at War: Midway, I was thinking: why not use the existing Stealth Bombers and expand on them? I really like the recent changes; a paperthin bomber that drops its deadly payload and then needs to get the hell out or get obliterated. T3 Torpedo Launcher Cannot be used to take down anything smaller than a Dreadnaught or a Carrier (so not viable against a Battleship or below) Same missile velocity and flight time as regular torpedos but with a much bigger, deadly payload Maybe a cruiser-sized Stealth Bomber? 5 to 7 of these bombers to take down a dread in one volley and a bit less to blow up a carrier. This way itÆs not too easy but still doable. Not that itÆll help them much against a flock of carrier fighters, but itÆd be in line with the current fragile bombers. The speed of the fighters compared to that of the cruiser bombers would be a concern though. Give dreadnaughts something to compensate also so they will be better equipped to fight off these bombers? Smartbomb bonus, but perhaps not drones because they already have a drone bay, so they can use medium drones to kill them off. I feel this would give cap fleets a reason to bring carriers to a fight more and use the carrier fighter fleet to hunt down the bombers and make for a more tactical playing field. If not for the omgwtfbbq carrier fighters it would be ideal to use regular stealth bombers (frigates) for this and have a reason to take interceptors and assault frigates as a support fleet.
Lyyraia	Posted - 2009.07.06 11:24:00 - [2] Originally by: Aranis Lyautey After watching National GeographicÆs Generals at War: Midway, I was thinking: why not use the existing Stealth Bombers and expand on them? I really like the recent changes; a paperthin bomber that drops its deadly payload and then needs to get the hell out or get obliterated. T3 Torpedo Launcher Cannot be used to take down anything smaller than a Dreadnaught or a Carrier (so not viable against a Battleship or below) Same missile velocity and flight time as regular torpedos but with a much bigger, deadly payload Maybe a cruiser-sized Stealth Bomber? 5 to 7 of these bombers to take down a dread in one volley and a bit less to blow up a carrier. This way itÆs not too easy but still doable. Not that itÆll help them much against a flock of carrier fighters, but itÆd be in line with the current fragile bombers. The speed of the fighters compared to that of the cruiser bombers would be a concern though. Give dreadnaughts something to compensate also so they will be better equipped to fight off these bombers? Smartbomb bonus, but perhaps not drones because they already have a drone bay, so they can use medium drones to kill them off. I feel this would give cap fleets a reason to bring carriers to a fight more and use the carrier fighter fleet to hunt down the bombers and make for a more tactical playing field. If not for the omgwtfbbq carrier fighters it would be ideal to use regular stealth bombers (frigates) for this and have a reason to take interceptors and assault frigates as a support fleet. I marked the funny parts there... and... NO, bad idea, lul
Ajurna Jakar Gallente Dark Sun Collective Kahora Catori	Posted - 2009.07.06 11:25:00 - [3] so let me get this straight. you want to oneshot 1.1 million ehp with 7 stealth bomber cruiser sized ships? do you realise how stupid that sounds?
Ecky X SniggWaffe	Posted - 2009.07.06 12:22:00 - [4] And while you're at it, give the Tempest a 400,000 damage alpha strike too.
Zeredek	Posted - 2009.07.06 12:25:00 - [5] Originally by: Ajurna Jakar so let me get this straight. you want to oneshot 1.1 million ehp with 7 stealth bomber cruiser sized ships? do you realise how stupid that sounds? I'd love to read what they say in local afterwards if that happens!
Aranis Lyautey Rising Ashes Inc. SATRAPY	Posted - 2009.07.06 12:27:00 - [6] I was just opening up a discussion. Silly me for thinking I'd get some intelligent answers Originally by: Ajurna Jakar so let me get this straight. you want to oneshot 1.1 million ehp with 7 stealth bomber cruiser sized ships? do you realise how stupid that sounds? You do realize that a ship like the Akagi was hit by just one bomb, which penetrated to the upper hangar deck and exploded among the armed and fueled aircraft there. One extremely near miss also slanted in and exploded underwater close astern, the resulting geyser bending the flight deck upward and also causing crucial rudder damage. Sōryū took three bomb hits in the hangar deck, Kaga at least four, possibly more. All three carriers were out of action and were eventually abandoned and scuttled. (wikipedia quote) You were saying, Ajurna Jakar? Make it 15 bombers then or 2 or 3-volleying, whatever. Cloaked bombers traveling up to 60 km or something, decloaking, firing and off again repeatedly. Use a heavier kind of torpedo obviously. I included the dreadnaught bonuses to give them a reason to not complain/cry. You could at least have tried to improve on the idea
HP Baxter	Posted - 2009.07.06 12:38:00 - [7] Realism != Fun. /thread
Riddick Richard Caldari Corporation 12345 Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.07.06 12:44:00 - [8] I like the bottom idea of this to bring more realism and variations to game, but in this case realism is that the ships that national geographic showed prolly didnt have a forcefield around them? Once i'm posting.. mebbe some shield penetrating ammos similar to rl reactive tank penetrating ammos.. Ammos would do less dmg than "normal" ammos, but would make shield leak to armor with every hit
Aranis Lyautey Rising Ashes Inc. SATRAPY	Posted - 2009.07.06 12:45:00 - [9] Let me get this straight: I'm not asking for an overpowered bomber that can take down cap ships in one go. What I am proposing is a bomber squad of 15 ships that will have a very hard time delivering their payload to the target SELECTIVE READING MUCH?
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.07.06 12:54:00 - [10] You are talking about world war tech ships the size of a EVE cruiser. A comparison like that does not hold. But I think the basic idea of sub-capital ships specialized in harassing capital ships isn't that bad in essence. Just the balancing is far off. A group of those ships should not be able to one volley a capital. But they should be able to turn the tide on breaking the tank in an ongoing capital fight or, given enough time, be able to pop a lone carrier or left behind dreadnaught. I am thinking of a single shot launcher, very short range (5-10km) with a signature radius modification so it cannot effectively be used against sub-capital ships. If they could only carry a single of the warheads at any time they will have to do a attack run and then return to a base for reloading, like a POS or carrier or station. Accurate stats for damage would be bound to balancing. I think something between 50-150k damage would be in the effective range but people more experienced in capital warfare can (probably) come up with better numbers. Considering how specialized the purpose of such a ship is, it would be a T2 ship. And considering the size of the needed warhead, a cruiser or maybe even destroyer sized ship could be big enough. Anyway, the idea itself isn't bad, it just needs balancing. -------- Ideas for: Mining

Aranis Lyautey Rising Ashes Inc. SATRAPY	Posted - 2009.07.06 13:11:00 - [11] Edited by: Aranis Lyautey on 06/07/2009 13:13:25 Originally by: Abrazzar But I think the basic idea of sub-capital ships specialized in harassing capital ships isn't that bad in essence. Just the balancing is far off. A group of those ships should not be able to one volley a capital. But they should be able to turn the tide on breaking the tank in an ongoing capital fight or, given enough time, be able to pop a lone carrier or left behind dreadnaught. I am thinking of a single shot launcher, very short range (5-10km) with a signature radius modification so it cannot effectively be used against sub-capital ships. If they could only carry a single of the warheads at any time they will have to do a attack run and then return to a base for reloading, like a POS or carrier or station. Accurate stats for damage would be bound to balancing. I think something between 50-150k damage would be in the effective range. Finally I like this. The one-volleying could happen only if all 15 bombers were able to hit the target, something which would be very unlikely to happen given the defenses and yes make the payload like a bomb (NOT equal to a bomb in effects), with one loaded and room for one more in your cargohold, no more. Make reloading take some time too Edit/ I did mention the "not being able to use against sub-capitals as not against battleships or below"
Skyvyr Caldari House Of BlackStar Semper-Mortis	Posted - 2009.07.06 14:01:00 - [12] Obviously the OP is thinking like starwars, with a single bomber should blow up titans... ..after all what's the risk vs reward? /sarcasm off.
Aranis Lyautey Rising Ashes Inc. SATRAPY	Posted - 2009.07.06 14:09:00 - [13] Originally by: Skyvyr Obviously the OP is thinking like starwars, with a single bomber should blow up titans... ..after all what's the risk vs reward? /sarcasm off. Look, another one who can't read
Rhohan Minmatar Pelennor Swarm	Posted - 2009.07.06 16:08:00 - [14] As a student of WWII, you should know that most ships that were taken out of action weren't due to "blowing up" but were due to flooding issues, such as sinking and capsizing... That doesn't happen in space. Even in Pearl Harbor, most of the Battleships that were sunk ended being re-floated, repaired, and brought back into action. One of the greatest threats during the later stages of the war was of the possible beaching of the Yamato during Leyte Gulf. Once it's beached, it would be a lot harder to destroy, than to sink. Take away the element of needing to float in water, and it will take a lot more to destroy a armored warship.
Aranis Lyautey	Posted - 2009.07.06 19:00:00 - [15] I see no reason why a space society would think up dreadnaughts and carriers but would forget to develop the bombers or the equivalent of a dive bomber with one heavy torpedo strapped to it to take them to hell. A high risk to lose the bomber even before it can drop its payload, but if it succeeds it does a lot of damage. In the unlikely event that more of them succeed it blows the target up (dreadnaught cost = cost of SEVERAL bombers to take it down) I suspect it's the idea that a bunch of much smaller ships would blow up your x billion e-peen cap ship made you people froth with anger and lose your head which stopped you from being able to read any further and have a mature discussion I should definitely blow up more ships if you all care that much about them
Alexander Vallen Caldari	Posted - 2009.07.06 23:33:00 - [16] Originally by: Aranis Lyautey I see no reason why a space society would think up dreadnaughts and carriers but would forget to develop the bombers or the equivalent of a dive bomber with one heavy torpedo strapped to it to take them to hell. A high risk to lose the bomber even before it can drop its payload, but if it succeeds it does a lot of damage. In the unlikely event that more of them succeed it blows the target up (dreadnaught cost = cost of SEVERAL bombers to take it down) I suspect it's the idea that a bunch of much smaller ships would blow up your x billion e-peen cap ship made you people froth with anger and lose your head which stopped you from being able to read any further and have a mature discussion I should definitely blow up more ships if you all care that much about them Perhaps what we need isnt so much a Stealth bomber (or Cruiser) but a specific Attack/Assault bomber? As you said, a very small payload of maybe 1-4 of the heavy weapons and make them very fragile. They'd need to be escorted by assault frigates to protect against equivilant enemy ships or fighters.
ThaDollaGenerale The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.07.07 00:52:00 - [17] Why not just let the stealthbombers fit one citadel launcher or 3 siege launchers. The citadel launcher would have to receive ship bonuses to make it viable. But there you go.
Zibu 81 Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.07 01:11:00 - [18] You're forgetting one thing: Those WWII bombers couldn't warp right to the carrier / other ship to drop it's bomb / torpedo. They had to stay in air for couple hours where they could be intercepted and destroyed. If you wanted to bring similar behavior to eve you would have to make it so that those new bombers cannot warp to anything at a range closer than say 250 km. To avoid exploits you shouldn't be able to board them if there is a non-fleet ship within 250 km. And they have to slowboat from there on, giving your carrier escort time to deal with them. They also shouldn't be able to cloak or be very fast. Combine that with a need of 15 of them to one volley a dread and we're getting somewhere (not that such ship would be useful or anything)
Breanta Nryrun	Posted - 2009.07.07 05:10:00 - [19] Edited by: Breanta Nryrun on 07/07/2009 05:13:43 You are asking the impossible. For a small ship such as a bomber to take down a dread or carrier in such a fashion, you would be turning PVP on its head. For you to ask such a question indicates that you have never ridden in a dread and never had to drop a billion for a well fit carrier. The balance of the stealth bomber is good and it already did get a boost. It can warp cloaked and uses Torps now instead of Cruise missiles. There is no need for any other size bomber as it stands now. One stealth bomber is enough. I dont believe CCP will even remotely consider your request.
AtheistOfDoom Amarr The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2009.07.07 05:26:00 - [20] Edited by: AtheistOfDoom on 07/07/2009 05:27:28 Originally by: HP Baxter Realism != Fun. /thread this tbh. we do not need an anti-cap subcap, you need to use tactics. rr bs gang maybe? Quote: Give dreadnaughts something to compensate also so they will be better equipped to fight off these bombers? Smartbomb bonus, but perhaps not drones because they already have a drone bay, so they can use medium drones to kill them off. Quoted because the stupidity of the sentence is amazing. Pew Pew Lazorz!!!

Arkhan Bayne	Posted - 2009.07.07 06:04:00 - [21] Originally by: Aranis Lyautey You do realize that a ship like the Akagi was hit by just one bomb, which penetrated to the upper hangar deck and exploded among the armed and fueled aircraft there. One extremely near miss also slanted in and exploded underwater close astern, the resulting geyser bending the flight deck upward and also causing crucial rudder damage. Sōryū took three bomb hits in the hangar deck, Kaga at least four, possibly more. All three carriers were out of action and were eventually abandoned and scuttled. (wikipedia quote) yeah, and midway-local was full of people whining about how OP diver bombers were... an interesting idea, however, this is a game, and these ships are a huge investment, losing them to something as cheap as that would be annoying, would certainly be over powered, and ultimately just not be very fun. why fly capital ships if they're just a giant neon torpedo-goes-here sign? you're better off bringing a few more battleships.
Khalia Nestune Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.07.07 07:08:00 - [22] Edited by: Khalia Nestune on 07/07/2009 07:08:50 What, and losing a BS to a group of SBs isn't any less annoying? What? There's no good reason I've seen not to have a sub-capital, dedicated anti-capital ship. It would need to be fairly useless for other things, but I think the OP's proposal is fairly on the mark there. This would add an interesting dynamic to the existing setup, and perhaps would finally shut people up about DDs being overpowered. You don't like the DD? Warp in a fleet of anti-cap ships and try to take it out before the DD goes off!
Aranis Lyautey	Posted - 2009.07.07 11:59:00 - [23] Edited by: Aranis Lyautey on 07/07/2009 12:02:04 No cloak on this dive bomber would indeed be better, but having to start 250 km out? You might as well not bother. Warp to zero would be a big problem though. Make it a slow frigate with one bomb that has to be loaded in its launcher because the bomb can't be put in its cargohold. To rearm, you have to go back to base or to a nearby carrier or supply ship. Maybe 2 turret highslots to try to counter incoming light drones? If that dive bomber is easy to kill, it shouldn't be overpowered and protecting it with assault frigates would be excellent. Use the carrier fighters, the dread's own drones and your own inty/AF wing to help protect against such attacks. Although the smartbomb bonus is a bad idea, I do think a dreadnaught should have a viable defense against such a dive bomber. Don't get too hung up on my previous posts Funny, I can already smell the fear coming from dreadnaught pilots having to rethink tactics
Tom Hanks Raype Inc.	Posted - 2009.07.07 12:26:00 - [24] I think this idea would not work because in order to have a ship powerful enough to blow away a capital, even if there are ten of them, in a couple volleys. You would have to make them rather easy to kill, to balance it out, so easy that they would never even be used. For the reward being so huge, the risk would be totally unacceptable to compensate. The idea I always liked was to give carriers a torpedo bomber type of drone. This would give it more firepower against capital ships and it would make it somewhat like a WW2 carrier. And yes, people dont pay billions of isk to hop into a dread and then get insta popped by 10 ships firing once each. You shouldnt be able to snipe a dreadnought so to speak without using about 15 dreads. Caldari Racial Purity
Aranis Lyautey	Posted - 2009.07.07 12:35:00 - [25] Edited by: Aranis Lyautey on 07/07/2009 12:36:36 Make the cost of the number of torpedos to take it down minus some % in losses of dive bombers equal to the cost of 1 dreadnaught. Give or take
Cors It's A Trap	Posted - 2009.07.07 12:37:00 - [26] if you want a bonus for cap ships, make it so they have a "module" so they can see cloaked ships that are withing 50km, and the "T3 Torpedo Launcher" has a range of 25km. This way the cloaked bombers have to move in uncloaked for 25km. This gives the caps time to lock them and send out drones... might have to make it only 10km or 20km for the BOMBs.
Rhinanna Minmatar	Posted - 2009.07.07 12:48:00 - [27] Edited by: Rhinanna on 07/07/2009 12:48:31 Warp to zero is the only problem I see with this. Give them a 2 min reload time and can carry only 2-3 missiles with cargo hold extenders and it would be fine, take 20 odd torps to kill a dread, 15 approx for a carrier. Would mean dreads are fleet ships and require support, same for titans and carriers. Solo capital ships are just stupid. They should be vunverable (no turrets, weak tanks) and not likely to survive long so half their numbers of assault ships would kill most of them before they got into firing range (approx 10KM max, maybe less), a dictor can easily stop them from warping in too close. This would finally make smaller ships useful in fleet PvP which is something that has been needed for a long time! Poor dready pilots thinking they should be immune to anything short of a gang of BSes. Also dictors needed in support to stop bombers warping to zero solves that problem nicely!
McDaddy Pimp Minmatar	Posted - 2009.07.07 12:48:00 - [28] Dive Bomber sounds lame. Just call it Heavy Bomber or something. my idea: Use a cruiser hull, with t1 resist, for the ship, with fitting bonus to fit Citadel Launchers. The boni, etc should be that the final alpha/volley is scaled up from the Stealth bomber. Maybe make it have 5~8 times alpha of current Stealth Bomber... or something more balanced, idk.
Aranis Lyautey	Posted - 2009.07.07 17:02:00 - [29] After doing some more research I was thinking 15+ bombers 2-volleying a dread, this in IDEAL circumstances, so usually more. It would certainly add more tactics to the game 30 SBs firing bombs at the same time could do 192k damage, but a lot of that damage gets wasted, so perhaps you could already do a lot of damage. You could think up a higher damage dealing bomb only 10 times more expensive with 10 times more damage There's bound to be a corp/alliance to do it, if they haven't already
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.07.07 19:50:00 - [30] The idea that could work better is this: anti-cap torpedo launcher that must be fired from distance of at least 50km away from target - otherwise it wouldn't hit, continue flying Speed of such torpedo would be 1000 m/s - so it would take at least 50 seconds to fly the torpedo would be clearly visible on overview as separate object - like fighter, it would have sig radius and HP similar to t2 Ogre It could be targeted and destroyed by anyone If you have that, then the large cap fleets would have a real need for agile support ships, that would fly around and try pick off those torpedos - which much fly at least 50 seconds before hitting. If you make them vulnerable this much, it would be acceptable to have extremely high damage, such that 4-8 would be enough to down a carrier.

Rhinanna Minmatar Volition Cult The Volition Cult	Posted - 2009.07.08 13:00:00 - [31] Either way should work. Caps should NEED a support fleet to operate. Them been as easy to run solo as they currently are is just a bit silly IMHO and makes them OP. -The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it. Drenzul (My normal internet tag)
steave435 Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.07.08 13:39:00 - [32] Originally by: Ephemeron The idea that could work better is this: anti-cap torpedo launcher that must be fired from distance of at least 50km away from target - otherwise it wouldn't hit, continue flying Speed of such torpedo would be 1000 m/s - so it would take at least 50 seconds to fly the torpedo would be clearly visible on overview as separate object - like fighter, it would have sig radius and HP similar to t2 Ogre It could be targeted and destroyed by anyone If you have that, then the large cap fleets would have a real need for agile support ships, that would fly around and try pick off those torpedos - which much fly at least 50 seconds before hitting. If you make them vulnerable this much, it would be acceptable to have extremely high damage, such that 4-8 would be enough to down a carrier. Hmm, really didn't like the suggestion until that point, but if it's done that way, it would make for a very interesting game mechanic.
Breanta Nryrun	Posted - 2009.07.08 14:58:00 - [33] I am absolutely amazed that this post has lasted this long in the top three pages. To suggest that there should be a small cruiser size bomber with a capital killing torpedo that it only takes 4-8 of them to pop a carrier is preposterous. If there would ever be such a thing those torpedos better cost 2 billion each, take 5 minutes to fly 50 km and have the signature radius of a BS. Then to suggest that these special torpedos should be able to down a dread that costs billions just to buy, with just one volley from a small fleet of these special bombers, The Shortest answer I can give you now is NO! Capitals take forever to train for, cost billions to buy and fly, are used for heavy attack and support, and should not have to worry about some punk in a new bomber that could rip apart your very expensive ship if your 'support fleet' gets blobbed and cannot take out the capital pwning torpedos.
Aranis Lyautey	Posted - 2009.07.08 15:00:00 - [34] 50 seconds? You underestimate the reaction time of pilots. That torpedo would never reach its target, maybe in the beginning or with an unexperienced cap pilot/fleet yes, but not with some paranoid veteran. The idea does have merit though. Add more risk for the heavy bomber pilot though, shouldn't be that easy as firing and warping off.
Ephemeron Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.07.08 17:34:00 - [35] Originally by: Aranis Lyautey 50 seconds? You underestimate the reaction time of pilots. That torpedo would never reach its target, maybe in the beginning or with an unexperienced cap pilot/fleet yes, but not with some paranoid veteran. The idea does have merit though. Add more risk for the heavy bomber pilot though, shouldn't be that easy as firing and warping off. I am fully aware of that. As you know, CCP and the public would never approve of a new extremely powerful tactic. This tactic has the potential to be powerful, but also easily counterable, and thus more likely to be accepted by opponents. And you shouldn't underestimate the ingenuity of attacking fleet also
big fluf	Posted - 2009.07.08 17:56:00 - [36] hmm an interesting proposial. I imagine fleets of 100 of the missles comeing in .. and smart bombs nets to kill them .... think mine field for missles.
Alexander Vallen Caldari	Posted - 2009.07.08 18:16:00 - [37] Has anyone checked to see how many regular Stealth bombers it would take to threaten a Dread? They can already launch torps from 50km, I mean if we're starting to bump up the number of ships needed for this type of attack we might as well check right?
steave435 Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.07.08 22:25:00 - [38] Originally by: Alexander Vallen Has anyone checked to see how many regular Stealth bombers it would take to threaten a Dread? They can already launch torps from 50km, I mean if we're starting to bump up the number of ships needed for this type of attack we might as well check right? A dread has a few k dps tank, and 2m+ ehp. A SB with 2 BCS does about 500 dps with max skills, so to break that ehp in f.e. a minute, you'd need roughly 65-70 bombers, add a few more to compensate for the dread repping.
Orin Tesan	Posted - 2009.07.08 22:59:00 - [39] Perhaps in order to balance this they should have a new skill to shoot this special anti-cap torpedo. "Capital Torpedo 8X training time 3% bonus to capital torpedo damage per level" Note:only usable on heavy bombers make each torp I dunno, 250-300 m3 so you can only fit one or two in the bay at a time.
Joe Starbreaker The Fighting Republicans	Posted - 2009.07.08 23:08:00 - [40] How many normal Stealth Bombers with normal bombs would it take to destroy a dreadnought? Why is there a need for a larger bomber that serves essentially the same function? Why not just use the little ones? -/ the fighting republicans /-

steave435 Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.07.08 23:34:00 - [41] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker How many normal Stealth Bombers with normal bombs would it take to destroy a dreadnought? Why is there a need for a larger bomber that serves essentially the same function? Why not just use the little ones? Far more then you can launch at a time. If you launch too many, they blow eachother up, and SB bombs are AOE weapons while the bombers suggested here apply their bombs to only 1 target.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2009.07.12 10:19:00 - [42] Just had a thought about this when I read some idea elsewhere about giving Motherships Fighter Bombers. This idea here, together with the other idea could be a good boost for Motherships and actually give them a purpose and strength to even exist. Those Fighter Bombers, unlike normal Fighters cannot be delegated to other players and cannot leave the grid in warp. Their design is all centered around a big warhead they need to deliver to the target. In that, they work more like normal drones, approaching the target capital and attacking it. Only they attack once and then need to dock again on the Mothership for new ordnance. One fighter bomber could deal 25-75k of damage, type depending on the race, final damage depending on the skill of the Mothership pilot and the signature radius of the target. The Fighter Bombers are more vulnerable and slower than normal Fighters and have zip capabilities against sub-capital ships and not enough attack range to affect POSes. -------- Ideas for: Mining
Katarlia Simov Minmatar Cowboys From Hell	Posted - 2009.07.12 19:07:00 - [43] The really big problem with this idea is that you'd need to basically cripple the ships to make them have ANY risk in attacking single caps. How about a siege mod style thing ? Warp to the cap, enter capital attack mode, and your weapons reconfigure to only be effective against dreads. But, you can't move or warp your only defence being the slow lock time on capitals. That way, you're also hugely vulnerable to support. Making the ships able to just appear and annihilate a cap ship doesn't encourage the use of support, it encourages the use of huge numbers of these things.
Re'taka Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2009.07.12 23:34:00 - [44] Originally by: steave435 Originally by: Alexander Vallen Has anyone checked to see how many regular Stealth bombers it would take to threaten a Dread? They can already launch torps from 50km, I mean if we're starting to bump up the number of ships needed for this type of attack we might as well check right? A dread has a few k dps tank, and 2m+ ehp. A SB with 2 BCS does about 500 dps with max skills, so to break that ehp in f.e. a minute, you'd need roughly 65-70 bombers, add a few more to compensate for the dread repping. Fully t2 fit SB does around 670 dps, with close range t2 torps, and great skills, would take 10 SB's about 6 min to kill a dread. as far as bombs go, thats the wrong way to go with capitals, your better off with torps then bombs. at max you can launch 7 bombs of the same dmg type, for 6400*7 = 44800 dmg not counting resists. not worth the effort, when you can do the job much faster and better with torps. Now, if you insisted on a bomb to work for this, make a bomb with each dmg type for capitals, explosion radius very large so it only hits capitals. around 50k dps each should do, would take 20 to 25 to down a carrier one volly, now, make those cost 20 mil per bomb, that way if you take a carrier out, then it will cost you at least the hull to do it, on the up side if your smart about it, you will hit 2 or 3 carriers at once, say maybe 30k range on the bomb. But lets be realistic, your not going to use a 30 mil isk fit bomber, or even a 150 mil isk bomber to kill a capital, your going to have to risk something or use normal torps, its not like taking 10 min to kill a dread with 10 bombers is that big a deal, it might take 20 min with them active tanking, but thats not the end of the world. and your going to have more then 10 bombers...
Kail Storm	Posted - 2009.07.13 01:07:00 - [45] Originally by: Rhohan As a student of WWII, you should know that most ships that were taken out of action weren't due to "blowing up" but were due to flooding issues, such as sinking and capsizing... That doesn't happen in space. Umm nope you dont sink just get all atmo vented out and replaced with freezing air while your blood boils because of pressure drop....Id rather drown.
Zibu 81 Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.13 06:40:00 - [46] Originally by: Kail Storm Edited by: Kail Storm on 13/07/2009 01:29:17 I like the basic idea...as warfare needs to have risk on all sides, and random risks also. Who cares that the ship cost 1 bil isk it still needs to be destroyed and the op didnt say in 6-8 hits he changed it to 30 hits..If the dread cant hit 30 slow ass Bombers with huge sig radius`s and a weak tank then he deserves to die. Plus if hes an idiot enough to be roaming alone with no screen and support he deserves to die. Dread were not meant to be lone ships wondering around and if you do you deserve to die. the problem with that is that dreads don't go roaming... They usually cyno to a POS, enter siege and sit there for 10 minutes or multiples of 10 minutes. During that time, they are unable to to move or target anything smaller than a small moon within reasonable amount of time. So they would be completely defenseless to those bombers. Second thing - if those new bombers were to function anything like normal bombers, no one would bring out their dread fleet, because as soon as dreads would enter siege you would see 30 of those bombers show up, fire and warp away before support would even be able to lock them. And repeat that until there were no more dreads left. After all how much support do you expect for a fleet of 5 dreads? 30 inties, plus double that in hacs, cause it take quite a long time for a BS to lock a cruiser or smaller. So you either make them as broken as the old stealth bombers with bombs were (were you would lose all your SBs before the bombs would reach their target) or you make them so expensive that it's not cost efficient to use them. Plus has any of you thought what ships like this would do to freighter ganks in empire?
Kail Storm	Posted - 2009.07.13 08:25:00 - [47] the problem with that is that dreads don't go roaming... They usually cyno to a POS, enter siege and sit there for 10 minutes or multiples of 10 minutes. During that time, they are unable to to move or target anything smaller than a small moon within reasonable amount of time. So they would be completely defenseless to those bombers. Second thing - if those new bombers were to function anything like normal bombers, no one would bring out their dread fleet, because as soon as dreads would enter siege you would see 30 of those bombers show up, fire and warp away before support would even be able to lock them. quote] I have seen tons of roaming dreads, Also how are all the sudden 30 guys gonna pop out of the pos the dread is attacking? And how are 30 slow ass ships gonna make it through the dread screen ships if the yhave to get into 5-15km range to drop payload? You might get half the ships through, jus tenough to make it interesting but bad pilots may lose all 30, the nbe defenseless at pos. So they couldnt fire before dread support was there, Also this would be a good reason not to bring 5 dreads instead of 1 dread and other ships. DREADS SHOULD NEVER BE ALONE>>>EVER and not just alone NEVER WITH OTHER DREADS ONLY. How many times did the Yamato BS go solo...NEVER .....Missouri BS never. They all had 20+ dessy`s and 40+ dessy escorts and cruisers. + when a dreads in siege mode yea it cant hit anything but it also gains what 99% damage resist? So actually it would be a race to making it to siege mode. Once again Dreads are fleet ships and basically giant BS`s how many Bs`s die while ratting from smaller faster ships...There is a whole industry based on it in this game..Pirating. So I dont feel bad they lost there ship because it cost a bil... A bil ship should never be in 00 sec without proper support and a dread= a 1st rate ship of the line were if 5 frigates [ even though there frigs were more like cruiser/BC hybrids] got 1 it was dead they would sail circles around them and shoot them in the rear area a clean shot to the bridge so they never were alone.
JuicyCakes	Posted - 2009.07.14 20:48:00 - [48] Edited by: JuicyCakes on 14/07/2009 20:49:39 I have an idea Let's have some new anti-capital kamikaze frigates with af level resists and normal agility. Now, create a "suicide bomber" mod that basically forces these frigates to impact the dread at super high speeds (> 20km/s for example) and detonate themselves in order to do massive damage. (i.e. 1 of these ships should be able to take a moros down to half armor). The catch is, the frigates have to go at uber uber speeds. So have some sort of system where the frigates have to fit 100mn MWDS. As we all know, fitting oversized mwds on small ships make them have horrible acceleration. But once they do accelerate, they are insanely fast. So the typical battle scenario is dreads warp in and enter siege. A fleet of these little buggers warp in at 150km or something. Then they accelerate (very slowly) from 0km/s to 20km/s. Once they hit that velocity, they're practically invulnerable to fire. However, getting them up to that speed will be difficult. They practically can't warp away in a hurry and have very low offensive capabilities (other than self destruct, which has a tiny explosion speed/radius). Also, if they get scrammed by inties, they're basically dead (mwd turns off with scrams) Please don't consider this ship a nano-ship idea, as although they have to go really fast, they have absolutely horrible agility.
Regat Kozovv Caldari Alcothology	Posted - 2009.07.14 20:57:00 - [49] I think this argument comes down to the notion that what sounds interesting in real-life doesn't necessarily equate to fun in the game. At the end of the day, the developers have to make a game fun and enjoyable to all sides, even if that involves throwing some semblance of realism out the window. I'm sure there are reasons for and against why having torpedo bombers or whatnot would be viable in EVE. But introducing them would create severe balance issues in the game that would need to be addressed in numerous other places. Personally I do think carrier fighters need to be addressed, as it doesn't seem they're worth the expense as is, and Carriers are used more as a large logistics ship rather than a pure combat vessel. But I don't think this is the way to do it.
Ydyp Ieva Caldari Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2009.07.14 22:09:00 - [50] Originally by: Regat Kozovv I think this argument comes down to the notion that what sounds interesting in real-life doesn't necessarily equate to fun in the game. At the end of the day, the developers have to make a game fun and enjoyable to all sides, even if that involves throwing some semblance of realism out the window. I'm sure there are reasons for and against why having torpedo bombers or whatnot would be viable in EVE. But introducing them would create severe balance issues in the game that would need to be addressed in numerous other places. Personally I do think carrier fighters need to be addressed, as it doesn't seem they're worth the expense as is, and Carriers are used more as a large logistics ship rather than a pure combat vessel. But I don't think this is the way to do it. Carrier and MoMs are supposed to be that big ass capital support ship, not a single ownage combat mobile (like they were at their release). As for the anti-cap ideas, the dreads are the anti-cap/POS ships. So you want to take their role away to give a much smaller ship, that probably is also a lot cheaper to get. I see a lot of balance issues here though. ---------------------------------- None of yet!

Andres Talas	Posted - 2009.07.14 22:14:00 - [51] I can drag the lossmail out if you want, but a BPH mothership essentially got killed by White Noise and Tri using Guardian-supported Curses to drain it's cap so it couldnt self-repair. I was at what we call Black Sunday. Well-piloted cruiser-sized subcaps do a plenty good job on unsupported caps and supercaps.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.07.14 22:32:00 - [52] Originally by: Joe Starbreaker How many normal Stealth Bombers with normal bombs would it take to destroy a dreadnought? Why is there a need for a larger bomber that serves essentially the same function? Why not just use the little ones? You need to deal around 2 000 000 damage to kill dread. bomber (maxskill) deals 8 000. 100 bombers = 800 000. So you need around 250 bombers to actually "instakill" capital ship. Now you can only launch 6 bombs per salvo before one pops another. Salvos can be made every 5 seconds (including flight time). 250bombers / 6per salvo = 40(41) salvos. 40 salvos times 5 seconds = 200 seconds = 3 minutes. In 3 minutes dread reps up LOTS of hitpoints even with 1 rep. Result? Dreads are pretty much immune to normal bombs.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2009.07.14 22:34:00 - [53] Originally by: Andres Talas I can drag the lossmail out if you want, but a BPH mothership essentially got killed by White Noise and Tri using Guardian-supported Curses to drain it's cap so it couldnt self-repair. I was at what we call Black Sunday. Well-piloted cruiser-sized subcaps do a plenty good job on unsupported caps and supercaps. Killing 1 MS is **** easy. Killing 10rring carriers/moms with conventional fleet of under 100 is very hard. 20+rr carriers? Bring dreads, this not gonna break with regular fleet.
Dark Exarch	Posted - 2009.07.14 22:37:00 - [54] It would be interesting, but i only have 2 things to say. And don't insult me because you think I haven't read the rest of the thread, I have. 1.) WWII =/= EVE 2.) While they might as well implement such a ship, the number of situations it would actually be usable in would be very low.
4THELULZ	Posted - 2009.07.14 23:37:00 - [55] Originally by: Aranis Lyautey I was just opening up a discussion. Silly me for thinking I'd get some intelligent answers Actually you've had intelligent answers. You're the one making the stupid "because it's like RL" suggestion.


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