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Haans Emerich
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Posted - 2009.07.08 11:10:00 -
[1]
so last night i was happily mining away in my new retriever in 1.0 using the jettison technique to dump my veldspar as i countinued to mine whilst my 2nd account was running a trade into Rens anyway after a short time 15 mins or so a cheeky B******* decides they are going to swap out my can for one of theirs, immediatly becoming hostile to me. now i realise i could have shot him fair and square but since my retriever is new i didnt have anything on board to perform this. plus i wasn't sure how quickly he could kill me if i did attack.
how can i protect myself from this? i realise i could load up the drone bay with 4 hornets, but how effective would these be against a Rifter / Stabber? also if i started to shoot him and he started to shoot back would i be able to tank long enough for concord to appear?
anyway on this occasion forwhatever reason the pirate warped away ( i presume to tempt me into nicking my gear back) i managed to get my 2nd account back from Rens and picked up the entire stash in one load in a (also newly aquired) Mammoth. Of course this made my mammoth hostile to the pirate, however just as he warped back my mammoth warped out back to the station and the pirate gave chase. luckily the mammoth docked before a shot was fired leaving my retriever following shortly behind to watch the hostile pirate circle the station at which point i jettisoned 1 unit of concentrated veldspar sent a evemail to the guy saying F U and docked and logged off for the night ( what a game!!)
any way if anyone could give me an idea as to how effective the drones would be in this situation i would be grateful and also how long would i stay alive (obviously dependant on the other ship) should i attack with them.
eventually i hope to have two miners filling up buckets that get picked up by the mammoth once they are full. with the profits used to run trade runs thoughout space
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RedSplat
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2009.07.08 11:19:00 -
[2]
Dont worry, these can flipper griefers and suicide gankers will be first up against the wall when the revoloution comes.
In the meantime, just shoot him. You will have no problems tanking till CONCORD rescues you
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting.
Originally by: CCP Mitnal it does get progressively longer.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.07.08 11:25:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Haans Emerich how can i protect myself from this?
Stop jetcan mining. 100% effectiveness guaranteed. Only suicide-gankers (or wardecs) remain a problem.
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Sidrat Flush
Caldari Life is Experience New Eden Hardware Emporium
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Posted - 2009.07.08 11:28:00 -
[4]
This time you were lucky in that you didn't lose either ship. For future mining ops, you have two options. Use your alt character's mammoth to haul for you while you mine OR, if you need it to do trade hauls, you could use giant secure cans positioned, anchored and password locked around strategic areas of the belt(s) you want to mine out of.
Failing the above options you could try and pay a hauler pilot to do it for you, but make sure you trust them first before agreeing to anything.
EXP-L Eve Industrial Organiser |
Haans Emerich
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Posted - 2009.07.08 11:37:00 -
[5]
Quote: Dont worry, these can flipper griefers and suicide gankers will be first up against the wall when the revoloution comes.
In the meantime, just shoot him. You will have no problems tanking till CONCORD rescues you
I hope your right i'll give it a shot next time this happens
Originally by: Akita T
Stop jetcan mining. 100% effectiveness guaranteed. Only suicide-gankers (or wardecs) remain a problem.
surely the only other methods are to either keep a Mammoth on stand by and load it up as and when or use GSC which dont have that great a capcity and would therefore require constant trips to and from Stations. whilst i agree the risk is there i would assume that if i where to mine with two chars fill up a jetcan then swap to an alt to move the gear that would probably be the quickest method of mining (risk being the flippers)
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Haans Emerich
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Posted - 2009.07.08 11:42:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Sidrat Flush This time you were lucky in that you didn't lose either ship. For future mining ops, you have two options. Use your alt character's mammoth to haul for you while you mine OR, if you need it to do trade hauls, you could use giant secure cans positioned, anchored and password locked around strategic areas of the belt(s) you want to mine out of.
Failing the above options you could try and pay a hauler pilot to do it for you, but make sure you trust them first before agreeing to anything.
Yeah i realise that, which is why i'm not sure how long the retriver could have tanked for, and how effective a few drones could possibly be. basically if im taking too big a risk doing it this way i need to make a change.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.07.08 11:44:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Haans Emerich
Originally by: Akita T Stop jetcan mining. 100% effectiveness guaranteed. Only suicide-gankers (or wardecs) remain a problem.
surely the only other methods are to either keep a Mammoth on stand by and load it up as and when or use GSC which dont have that great a capcity and would therefore require constant trips to and from Stations.
Hulk + T1 cargohold optimisation rigs + T2 expanded cargohold = 17199 m^3 cargo Hulk + T2 cargohold optimisation rigs + T2 expanded cargohold = 18727 m^3 cargo That's one trip to the station every 7-10 minutes, surely you can appreciate the additional safety over this minor nuissance.
The other decent alternative would be to have an ORCA on standby (also running a laser cycle time link for extra mining speed), and dump the ore directly into the Orca's corporate hangar (40000 m^3), and the pilot of the Orca can move it to its regular cargohold (with T2 expanded cargoholds, 92714 m^3 with T1 rigs, 105341 m^3 with T2 rigs) once it's in there, then only take a short trip to the station once the entire cargo is filled (130-145k space is a LOT of room).
EVE issues|Mining revamp|Build stuff|Make ISK |
Molock Saronen
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Posted - 2009.07.08 11:48:00 -
[8]
Originally by: RedSplat .. BS ..
If you want some perspective on Redsplat's opinions I suggest you read this topic first... Assembly Hall/Pushing the Insurance Issue.
Follow Akita's idea or learn to accept a can loss every now and then. In a retriever you do NOT agress back and if you do you are sitting dead duck.
In fact that's why they do it. When you agress back CONCORD will no longer intervene and he (or more lickely THEY 'Oh.. look a battlecruiser dropping out of warp. I wonder why...BANG!') is free to kill you without any repercussions. In fact, that's the reason they can flip. The ore is secundary...
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TheBlueMonkey
Gallente Ministers Of Destruction
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Posted - 2009.07.08 11:51:00 -
[9]
Create warp points
Firstly, at various places in the belt it's self so that when you warp to it you're already at a decent distance from what you want to mine. I usually pic rock that are about 14km from the edge of the belt and then create a bookmark about 2km away from then.
Secondly, warp to a belt, then warp straight back out to the station but create a safespot as close to the belt as possible (jump between the safespot and then belt untill you're happy with the spot).
Then when you mine warp to the can and back when your cargobay's full. It's slower than just jetcan mining but quicker than docking up and dropping off the ore.
It's that or have your alt sat next to you filling their hauler as you go. --
If there's no profit to be made you need to travel further afield.
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Callista Omenswarm
Astronautical Engineering
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Posted - 2009.07.08 11:56:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Molock Saronen In a retriever you do NOT agress back and if you do you are sitting dead duck. ...
In fact, that's the reason they can flip. The ore is secundary...
Agreed. Quite possibly the worst thing you can do in this situation is set your drones on them as you can be almost entirely certain to lose your ship in addition to the ore.
Go buy a bunch of Giant Secure Cans. Anchor two in each belt and bookmark them all, warp to one belt, fill can, move on to the next belt then go back to the start and fill all the #2 cans. Once all are full, go grab your hauler and pull in ore. Then rinse, repeat.
Astronautical Engineering - T1 BPC Store - Now recruiting |
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Haans Emerich
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Posted - 2009.07.08 12:01:00 -
[11]
thanks for all your replies
akita would be nice if i could afford all of that gear but right now i'm trying to make do
and molock i think your right about accepting the odd loss i suppose i just need to find an area with limited activity
i did guess that the ore was secondary after he returned not in a industrial ship buit in the same rifter hoping to catch me off guard
so concord will not react if he started shooting me anymore (surely that cant be right?)
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Kupua
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Posted - 2009.07.08 12:05:00 -
[12]
when it comes to can flippers think of it this way... is the amount of ore lost to the can flipper looking for pvp worth the cost of your ship? unless they are a noob pirate they are usually fit out to either kill you then or come back an kill you later with a bigger ship. Also less busy systems usually have fewer can flippers and if the local pop is small can be pretty obvious when they jump in.
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Jauqs
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.07.08 12:24:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Haans Emerich so concord will not react if he started shooting me anymore (surely that cant be right?)
If he STARTED shooting you before you shot at him, than concord would show up and pop him, however, that is not what you described or asked in your OP.
You asked if your "retriever with hornets could attack and last long enough for concord to show up" - the answer to that question is NO, because concord will not show up if you shoot at him first.
When the can flipper stole your ore, he became flag as a criminal to you and your PC corp (if you are part of one), thus he turned red. This means that you can shoot him without concord getting involved. However, IF you shoot him, the flipper now can freely shoot back without concord getting involved.
The best thing you can do with a can flipper is ignore them and take the ore loss as Cost of Doing Business, or, a bit riskier, is exactly what you did - swoop in with a hauler alt when the flipper has warped away, snatch the ore while aligned to a station and warp out fast. Then smack talk him in local. Leave the retriever and keep mining - the flipper can't do a damn thing to you unless you shoot first. (other than suicide gank you)
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Kenji Hideyoshi
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Posted - 2009.07.08 12:50:00 -
[14]
1. Ore Thief steals the can 2. Miner starts shooting at the Ore Thief 3. Ore Thief can now shoot back
Q: Who, together with the Ore Thief, will be allowed to shoot at the miner? The Fleet and the Corp? None of them?
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Inoshuu
Caldari Flux Production Studio
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Posted - 2009.07.08 12:50:00 -
[15]
Quote: also if i started to shoot him and he started to shoot back would i be able to tank long enough for concord to appear?
You shot him first, Concord won't show up because it's now a legal battle. If he shot you first, then Concord would show up because someone attacked you for no reason.
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Haans Emerich
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Posted - 2009.07.08 13:00:00 -
[16]
okay that makes more sense now
looks like for the time being ill be taking the risk of this and cutting my losses should the worst occur
ill just have to figure out the best place to do this
thanks for all of your advice guys
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Molock Saronen
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Posted - 2009.07.08 15:55:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Kenji Hideyoshi 1. Ore Thief steals the can 2. Miner starts shooting at the Ore Thief 3. Ore Thief can now shoot back
Q: Who, together with the Ore Thief, will be allowed to shoot at the miner? The Fleet and the Corp? None of them?
Fleet only if I'm not mistaken(Things are a lot easier in 0.0 ). This is a personal action from Miner against Ore Thief. So it's limited to him and his fleetmembers.
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Xr0ssfire
Relentless Storm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.07.08 16:01:00 -
[18]
If you're in a retriever the smart move is not to aggress, if you do, you will die. I know because I got a retriever kill in an SB few days ago, and it was alpha'd.
Truthfully, your best bet is to get your hauler to move it for your, until you're in a hulk, at which point you can set the hulk up just to mine into your hold while your alt does the trading.
Fly safe o7
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Joe Starbreaker
The Fighting Republicans
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Posted - 2009.07.08 16:24:00 -
[19]
Don't shoot back with your drones. The can flipper is flipping your can with the intention of getting you to fight him. He wants you to fire, because then he has permission to return fire for up to 15 minutes. Even if he flips your can in a noobship, he may have a battleship in the station to switch into.
Do like me -- train your alt to be the miner and train your main character to be the fighter. That way if your mining alt's can gets flipped, your main can warp in with a combat ship and attack the flipper. Be prepared for a fight, though, and assume the flipper is prepared as well.
-/ the fighting republicans /- |
Miss Giggles
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Posted - 2009.07.08 16:54:00 -
[20]
Solo mining jet caning with retriever , I would recommend looking into mining mish belts ..
Fly Safe
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Steve Thomas
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Posted - 2009.07.08 17:02:00 -
[21]
short version unless you have a battleship in system loaded with a full flight of drones. . . Dont bother with the can flipper. odds are they have a replacment ship they can pop into or a freind in system who wants you to shoot at him so they can trash you
*.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.*
Stop freaking worrying about why things the developerd did 5 years and more ago no longer make sence. |
Tau Cabalander
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.07.08 17:06:00 -
[22]
My rule of thumb: if there are more people in local than asteroid belts, move to another system.
I've had a can flipped twice. Got all the ore back the first time, and about 50% of it the second time. After that I left the system and looked for a less busy one. Never happened again.
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Fobiah
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.07.08 18:10:00 -
[23]
Hire a mercenary corp to wardec his corp.
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Vasundhara
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Posted - 2009.07.08 19:21:00 -
[24]
Back when I took a stab at empire ice mining I ran into a situation where a can flipper put my ice cubes in his own can. I decided to use a trick a friend of mine told me about and came back in an itty 5. I quickely aligned myself to something that would have my path cross the can now owned by the can flipper. As I was passing the can, I 'stole' my ice back and immediately entered warp and docked at a station. I can't remember if I had any stabs fit but I was willing to lose a 1M ISK ship to get the ice back. Since a lot of other miners were at the ice belt he had warped to the other end to grief them as well and was in mid warp to try to get me as I was setting myself up to do the flyby.
They say that carebears in EvE are playing the wrong game but sometimes I like the thrill of playing the avoidance game.
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Bilbo II
Serenity Engineering and Transport Company Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.07.09 06:13:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Kenji Hideyoshi 1. Ore Thief steals the can 2. Miner starts shooting at the Ore Thief 3. Ore Thief can now shoot back
Q: Who, together with the Ore Thief, will be allowed to shoot at the miner? The Fleet and the Corp? None of them?
Only the guy you shot at, HOWEVER, if you take the ore back then his whole corp can shoot at the toon that just "stole" from them.
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Velvet Sinner
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Posted - 2009.07.09 07:46:00 -
[26]
tl;dr
Why do people continue to jetcan mine? You WILL get ripped off eventually. I'm considering doing it myself cuz of all the whining...
Don't jetcan mine, people. It's the lazy man's (or woman's) approach.
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Dr BattleSmith
PAX Interstellar Services
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Posted - 2009.07.09 09:05:00 -
[27]
Just continue mining and hauling, ignore him.
Can flippers rely on noobs who try to "fix it" when there is nothing wrong.
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Mazlow Shartain
The Last Legion
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Posted - 2009.07.09 12:56:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Haans Emerich sent a evemail to the guy saying F U and docked and logged off for the night
This will get you a ban dude.
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Celia Therone
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Posted - 2009.07.09 15:39:00 -
[29]
If someone steals from you (flips your can, loots your wrecks) it's almost always because they want you to shoot at them so that they can kill you. Expect them to have friends nearby so even if you think you can kill them, you'll still die.
Try not to let these people get to you. If you send them an obnoxious mail or smack talk them on local then you'll be on their list to grief, just because they love your tears and they crave attention.
There are a couple of different things that you can do to reduce the chance of getting your can flipped:
1) Move to a system without many people in it.
2) Find a mission with lots of asteroids in it and mine those. It's rare for a can flipper to bother hunting you down in mission space.
3) Find a cosmic anomaly with lots of asteroids (see 2), you need to use your onboard ship scanner to find these.
4) Find a gravimetric site with lots of asteroids (see 2) but they're hard to find and the asteroids aren't very good. You'll also need a probe launcher and core scanner probes to find these.
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Venko Trenulo
Spelunkers
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Posted - 2009.07.09 17:39:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Celia Therone
There are a couple of different things that you can do to reduce the chance of getting your can flipped:
1) Move to a system without many people in it.
This. My favorite mining location is now w-space: they often have grav sites, and all grav sites seem to have arkonor+bistot+crokite, and a few even have mercoxit. You need to watch your directional scanner for ship probes, but I've found it to be pretty safe.
Quote:
2) Find a mission with lots of asteroids in it and mine those. It's rare for a can flipper to bother hunting you down in mission space.
And this. Veldspar is currently the best isk/hour of high sec ores, and the can flippers don't need to probe down mission-runners: there are plenty of easy targets in the belts.
Quote:
3) Find a cosmic anomaly with lots of asteroids (see 2), you need to use your onboard ship scanner to find these.
4) Find a gravimetric site with lots of asteroids (see 2) but they're hard to find and the asteroids aren't very good. You'll also need a probe launcher and core scanner probes to find these.
The grav sites will typically have better 'roids than the system they're in. And, as I said, if you've gone through a wormhole you'll get the ABC asteroids... and profit!
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