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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2009.07.09 13:36:00 -
[1]
Once upon a time there was a game called Elite, The Granddaddy of all Space Traders.
In that game it was possible to mine asteroids with mining lazors fitted to your ship.
If you got attacked by an pirate you could turn your mining lazors on the attacking pirates to killz them.
This was difficult as the mining lazors had a very low rof, but if they hit they did great damage.
I think it would be great if miners could actually protect themselves.
I propose that mining lazors can be used as weapons.
Give them moderate tracking, high alpha but low rof 15secs when used against ships, maybe 3/4 dps of comparable by fitting military lazers.
Strips and ice miners get bigger alpha / big sig and lower tracking.
Effective against ships to 30km ish.
Now mining posse's can head into low sec to mine all the juicy veld, knowing they can defend themselves if attacked, although they wont be as effective as pure combat ships.
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Bal'Ayle
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Posted - 2009.07.09 13:51:00 -
[2]
mining ships can defend themselves, using drones, and i don't think making mining lasers into military style weapons is a good idea, your in a mining ship, there should be a risk, and drones can take care of most low sec / high sec rats in belts, anything more and you need to hire protection my friend, its a mining ship, you sacrificed your guns for extra cargo space =]
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2009.07.09 14:06:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Bal'Ayle
mining ships can defend themselves, using drones, and i don't think making mining lasers into military style weapons is a good idea, your in a mining ship, there should be a risk, and drones can take care of most low sec / high sec rats in belts, anything more and you need to hire protection my friend, its a mining ship, you sacrificed your guns for extra cargo space =]
Drones are lol , they are not gonna defend you versus players.
Why should a mining ship be a sitting duck? thats just what your used to so you think its correct!
Mining ships have Equipment that puts out beams of high energy they should be able to use it to defend themselves.
There is allways risk to being in a mining ship, 1 v1 class for class a combat ship is more powerful.
Giving mining ship teeth just changes the economics of mining in low sec.
Currently if you wanna mine in low you need a large backup fleet of combat ships.
This means per person mining in low sec is less profitable than mining in high sec.
Thats why in 3 years in low I have only ever seen 2 barges in the belts.
Seriously I wannna see miners in low, its never gonna happen unless they get the ability to defend themselves.
Mining ship = sitting duck = stupid imho.
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Valandril
Caldari
Ex-Mortis
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Posted - 2009.07.09 14:21:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Dav Varan
Why should a mining ship be a sitting duck?
Because this is MMO game, if you want protection against players - bring other players in pvp boats.
Do not discuss moderation in your signature. Zymurgist |
BenjaminBarker
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Posted - 2009.07.09 14:22:00 -
[5]
Serious mining in lowsec isn't for solo players, it's for the low sec corps who defend their corners of space from pirates and make friends with their neighbors.
Advance warning from scouts and a pvp wing that is always happy to jump a pirate looking for ganks is all you need.
But if you want to head into low sec with just a bunch of miners, you're probably going to get yourself killed.
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Bal'Ayle
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Posted - 2009.07.09 14:27:00 -
[6]
my point being you cant have it both ways, you can fit a mining frigate/cruiser with guns or rockets, with miners and have small cargo space, or have less weps and more yield and space,
but if you say mining lasers could do x-amount of damage, well where does that leave combat ships?
why don't we all equip mining lasers, combat ships will still kill you, but they can also mine as well, flooding the market and ruining your profit margins,
although i see where you are coming from, perhaps having a mining laser with reduced yield, perhaps a tech2 item with very high skill requirements that used focusing crystals instead of the standard miners , COULD have the option to switch out mining lasers and equip damaging lenses/crystals, at the cost of laser hp, kind of like thermo dynamics and overdrive etc, that way "end-game" miners could defend themselves better, but realy if it takes a fleet to take on pvp's or pirates this isnt going to do more then give a pretty lightshow, and face it your just a lower attack version of a big ship fighting little ships, tracking is gona be aweful, you wont have the skills to fight effectively and it cause drone costs to plummet because you don't need them for defence in low sec
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Xavier Maroquin
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Posted - 2009.07.09 14:28:00 -
[7]
Well, tracking would be an issue, as they are currently insta track.
You should be able to aim your lasers at another ship, it should cut through shields easily and then slowly rip the armor off of the enemy ship, perhaps getting metal scraps in the process? The mining laser is an incineration and sucking machine, aimed at a ship, it would be a decent defensive weapon.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2009.07.09 14:28:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Valandril
Originally by: Dav Varan
Why should a mining ship be a sitting duck?
Because this is MMO game, if you want protection against players - bring other players in pvp boats.
Well thats the problem with low sec mining , more players = mining profits split more ways.
If those players could mine and fight in the same ship then low sec mining could become profitable.
Theres no reason this cant happen, just because we have become accustomed to the idea that mining ship = big fat defenceless target.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2009.07.09 14:29:00 -
[9]
Originally by: BenjaminBarker
Serious mining in lowsec isn't for solo players, it's for the low sec corps who defend their corners of space from pirates and make friends with their neighbors.
Advance warning from scouts and a pvp wing that is always happy to jump a pirate looking for ganks is all you need.
But if you want to head into low sec with just a bunch of miners, you're probably going to get yourself killed.
No you misunderstand.
I havnt flown a mining ship in 4 years.
I wanna fight the miners, I wanna protect the roids, but I want them to be good fights not shooting fish in a barrel.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2009.07.09 14:33:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Bal'Ayle
my point being you cant have it both ways, you can fit a mining frigate/cruiser with guns or rockets, with miners and have small cargo space, or have less weps and more yield and space,
but if you say mining lasers could do x-amount of damage, well where does that leave combat ships?
why don't we all equip mining lasers, combat ships will still kill you, but they can also mine as well, flooding the market and ruining your profit margins,
although i see where you are coming from, perhaps having a mining laser with reduced yield, perhaps a tech2 item with very high skill requirements that used focusing crystals instead of the standard miners , COULD have the option to switch out mining lasers and equip damaging lenses/crystals, at the cost of laser hp, kind of like thermo dynamics and overdrive etc, that way "end-game" miners could defend themselves better, but realy if it takes a fleet to take on pvp's or pirates this isnt going to do more then give a pretty lightshow, and face it your just a lower attack version of a big ship fighting little ships, tracking is gona be aweful, you wont have the skills to fight effectively and it cause drone costs to plummet because you don't need them for defence in low sec
It would leave combat ships as being more powerful than mining ships in combat.
I'm not suggestng mining lasers become the new uber weapon.
It would need to be balanced of course.
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Valandril
Caldari
Ex-Mortis
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Posted - 2009.07.09 14:37:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Dav Varan
Originally by: Valandril
Originally by: Dav Varan
Why should a mining ship be a sitting duck?
Because this is MMO game, if you want protection against players - bring other players in pvp boats.
Well thats the problem with low sec mining , more players = mining profits split more ways.
If those players could mine and fight in the same ship then low sec mining could become profitable.
Theres no reason this cant happen, just because we have become accustomed to the idea that mining ship = big fat defenceless target.
If his is not profitable for you, don't do it. There are people who find ninja lowsec/0.0 minig ops profitable and that includes escort costs.
You've still did not show me WHY this should happend beside that you want.
Do not discuss moderation in your signature. Zymurgist |
BenjaminBarker
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Posted - 2009.07.09 14:40:00 -
[12]
Okay - I see what you mean, but I still don't think players would play that way.
Even if you gave a hulk pilot a way to defend himself, he would still dock or safe up and swap into a combat ship. It makes far more sense to use a dedicated combat ship then a hybrid ship.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2009.07.09 14:42:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Valandril
If his is not profitable for you, don't do it. There are people who find ninja lowsec/0.0 minig ops profitable and that includes escort costs.
You've still did not show me WHY this should happend beside that you want.
I dont do it anyway, I am pirate.
I show you why in original post. to make low sec mining ops profitable.
Players in mining ships that can fight = good ore per hour per player.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2009.07.09 14:45:00 -
[14]
Originally by: BenjaminBarker
Okay - I see what you mean, but I still don't think players would play that way.
Even if you gave a hulk pilot a way to defend himself, he would still dock or safe up and swap into a combat ship. It makes far more sense to use a dedicated combat ship then a hybrid ship.
Hulk pilots atm dock up because they cant fight back.
Yes dedicated combat = better and I'm not suggesting we change that.
Hulk cant dock up and swap out if he's pointed.
Pirates more than likelly disappear by time he gets back in a combat vessel.
Atm Barge = Big fat target ( defenceless ) = reason why there are no mining ops in low sec, except ninja's of course.
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Valandril
Caldari
Ex-Mortis
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Posted - 2009.07.09 14:49:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Dav Varan
Originally by: Valandril
If his is not profitable for you, don't do it. There are people who find ninja lowsec/0.0 minig ops profitable and that includes escort costs.
You've still did not show me WHY this should happend beside that you want.
I dont do it anyway, I am pirate.
I show you why in original post. to make low sec mining ops profitable.
Players in mining ships that can fight = good ore per hour per player.
I don't care who you are, this discussion is going only for the sake of luls for simple reason, they will either still die to any pvp ship or will be used in pvp.
Do not discuss moderation in your signature. Zymurgist |
Breanta Nryrun
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Posted - 2009.07.09 14:49:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Dav Varan
I havnt flown a mining ship in 4 years.
You have been on the server for 4 years and you worried about making lasers weapons so miners can defend themselves?
Originally by: Dav Varan
I wanna fight the miners, I wanna protect the roids, but I want them to be good fights not shooting fish in a barrel.
Again if you been online for 4 years any miner you shout is a fish in a barrel. Get over it and go attack something bigger. unless you a carebear yourself, and in that case watch your local cuz they coming to get ya.
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BenjaminBarker
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Posted - 2009.07.09 14:50:00 -
[17]
That's where you're wrong though - there are low sec mining ops, they're just gone by the time you get there. They have scouts and defend their space. They certainly will not sit there in the belt waiting for you to arrive so they can try out their mining lasers on you.
You said it yourself - a hulk is 150M, a drake is 40M. The smart thing to do is to swap out and run the pirates off.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2009.07.09 15:06:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Valandril
I don't care who you are, this discussion is going only for the sake of luls for simple reason, they will either still die to any pvp ship or will be used in pvp.
No need to be personal , this is the right forum for idea's discussion.
Not for luls, I am quite serious.
A hammer is a tool, it is also a weapon.
A power drill is a tool, it is also a weapon.
A screwdriver is a tool, it is also a weapon.
Any number of industrial things can be used to inflict bodily damage.
There not as effective as guns though.
I think eve would be better if powerful industrial things could be used as weapons, even if there not as effective as pure weapon systems.
Not neccesarlily true that the miner would allways lose, depends on skills of both pilots and tactics deployed and balance given to mining lasers.
Atm its true the miner would allways lose , which is bad mkay.
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BenjaminBarker
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Posted - 2009.07.09 15:15:00 -
[19]
Valandril has it right here. Make them competitive with a PvP ship and it's overpowered, make them die to PvP ships, and nothing changes, they still run, they still swap to PvP ships or hide.
I don't see a way to balance that. Sure you could add some dps to a mining barge, but to what end? The fleet will still flee, and anyone who gets caught will still die. The illusion of being able to defend themselves isn't going to last long.
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Sobon
Caldari
Phantom Squad
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Posted - 2009.07.09 15:24:00 -
[20]
Drones from a pilot with half decent drone skills ARE a effective weapon, if you have three hulks throwing their full rock of drones at something, it will be in a world of hurt.
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Breanta Nryrun
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Posted - 2009.07.09 15:29:00 -
[21]
 This post not for LULS
Shoot me now!
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2009.07.09 15:33:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Sobon
Drones from a pilot with half decent drone skills ARE a effective weapon, if you have three hulks throwing their full rock of drones at something, it will be in a world of hurt.
Smartbomb
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Sobon
Caldari
Phantom Squad
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Posted - 2009.07.09 15:36:00 -
[23]
Because every ship in the game fits one right? Most fits I see/fly prefer nuets in those free highslots. Miners have their defensive weapons already, quit begging for a new one.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2009.07.09 15:43:00 -
[24]
Originally by: BenjaminBarker
Valandril has it right here. Make them competitive with a PvP ship and it's overpowered, make them die to PvP ships, and nothing changes, they still run, they still swap to PvP ships or hide.
I don't see a way to balance that. Sure you could add some dps to a mining barge, but to what end? The fleet will still flee, and anyone who gets caught will still die. The illusion of being able to defend themselves isn't going to last long.
1 v 1 barge would not be a good choice of combat vessel.
The point of dps on a mining barge is an organised low sec op does not have to flee just because 1 cruiser comes into local and decides to hang around.
Giving dps to a barge , decreases the ratio of combat ships to mining ships.
This increases the isk per hour per pilot making low sec ops more profitable.
In conjuction with Grid wide cyno suppression from roqual high slot mod , mining ops become defendable.
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Sobon
Caldari
Phantom Squad
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Posted - 2009.07.09 15:49:00 -
[25]
A mining op should easily spank a single crusier, the fleet you detailed in your first post would have enough drone support to kill it in something around 15 seconds.
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Robot Robot
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Posted - 2009.07.09 15:57:00 -
[26]
I think this would be a fun addition and it would make a certain amount of game-world sense but, as everyone else has said, what's the point?
If would have to be sufficiently underpowered, say with the DMG and RANGE of a light pulse laser, but with the ROF and TRACKING of a beam laser.
But no one would use them for defense against rats, because it would lower their mining efficiency too much, so you would still have to bring enough drones/tank to deal with NPCs.
And in any PVP situation, they would be laughable as weapons. I suppose that it would mean that a small group of miners could maybe defend themselves against a lone frigate/cruiser pirate. Though they can do that now with drones, it would just be a question of how big a pack you would need to have safety in numbers.
In short, if it was in the game it would either be "neat but useless" or "overpowered". Given those options, I'd far rather have the devs focusing on more significant things.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2009.07.09 16:53:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Dav Varan on 09/07/2009 16:54:37
No it would not be pointless you have to think about the consequences of such a change.
Image you are a lone pirate in a cerb.
You spot 2 hulks and a Maller in a low sec belt.
You warp in to attack.
As it is now
1) you get a point on one of the hulks.
2) The other hulk flees and the maller stays to fight.
3) You toast the maller, you get some damage from drones but nothing you cant handle.
4) You toast the hulk
5) The other hulk pilot returns in a drake.
6) You either stay and fight it out or mwd away and warp out.
1 pilot versus 3 pilots , solo pilot wins getting hulk and maller kill.
As it could be
1) you get a point on one of the hulks.
2) Whats this ? the hulks arnt running and have locked you up ????.
3) Bammm there a blinding flash of light as you get 6 strip miners in your face.
4) The Maller has you scammed and webbed , oh ****
5) you start shooting the maller, he's takin some damage but so are you.
6) Bammm there another blinding flsh of light and your ships now on fire, your tackled, in structure and have 3 ships on you + 10 hobgobs.
7) Boom , your in a pod.
8) badly dmaged Maller warps off with his flock to get some reps done.
1 player versus 3 players , 3 player get a cerb kill off a careless pilot.
These miners have teeth.
you should have come in and orbitted at range and softened up the hulks and made them run before trying to grab one for a kill.
You decide to do this next time.
However next time a zuu decloaks off your starboard bow and scrams and webs you.
You get that sinking feeling as the strips start chewing on your ass again :(
These miners have teeth.
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Valandril
Caldari
Ex-Mortis
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Posted - 2009.07.09 17:01:00 -
[28]
How can it be done NOW (aka the smart way).
1 Pilot in random bc that doesnt suck balls + 2 hulk pilots. Cerb warpsin and gets eaten alive by escort pilot who decided to bring real ship before hulks even make it to the station.
Do not discuss moderation in your signature. Zymurgist |
Robot Robot
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Posted - 2009.07.09 17:02:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Dav Varan
These miners have teeth.
Right, but as others have said: either you make mining ships so badass that everyone uses them for PVP, or you don't and they still run away.
If the mining lasers are as powerful as you make them sound in that post, then WTB roaming PVP Hulk gang. Otherwise, the Hulks (if not tackled) would be smart to still warp off and get Drakes while the Maller keeps the Cerb tackled, because drakes have a much better cost/punch ratio.
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2009.07.09 17:30:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Valandril
How can it be done NOW (aka the smart way).
1 Pilot in random bc that doesnt suck balls + 2 hulk pilots. Cerb warpsin and gets eaten alive by escort pilot who decided to bring real ship before hulks even make it to the station.
Thats now a different scenario.
Now change the scenarion again and add a second pirate cerb and run it for both "hulks as victims" and "hulks with teeth".
You will then start to understand where I am coming from.
Currently.
2 hulks + BC = not viable to defend against 2 cerbs.
Proposed.
2 hulks + BC = Viable defence against 2 cerbs ( maybe )
3 man gang can now mine this low sec pocket whereas previosly they could not.
Profit per hour = rate of ore extraction per hulk * 2 / 3 = (2/3 hulk rate)
Before to defend against 2 cerbs you needed. 4 man gang ( 2 bc + 2 hulk )
Profit per hour = rate of ore extraction per hulk * 2 / 4 = (1/2 hulk rate )
Warping to station to get a combat ship is not an effective defence.
Any one scramed in the belt is gonna die before you get back.
Player needs to be able to defend in the ship he is in now , not what is back in his hangar.
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