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Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.12 15:12:00 -
[1]
Currently there is a technique being used in low sec to probe mission runners which circumvents the steps required to properly probe someone down. Combat probes are supposed to be used to probe ships. This isnÆt the case. Players are learning to use the Directional (onboard) Scanner to probe ships to within 1 AU. Why? Because using the Directional Scanner does not send any alerts that a ship is being probed and it can be just as accurate as using combat probes themselves. Once a ship has been probed with the Directional Scanner the player only needs a warpable 100% hit to warp to the target. This is the only reason combat probes are needed; and this for only around 6 seconds.
What this means is that if I am mission-running in low sec with a neutral in the system even if I am alert, spamming the scan button every 30 to 60 seconds, my chances of detecting any combat probes in space are slim to none. I will say that I am usually aligned to station in case my mission does get busted. But my concern is once the mission is busted profitability hits the floor. In low sec there should definitely be more risk than high sec. But the new probing system has decreased the profit, or rather, the profitability of low sec substantially.
Ask yourself this: Is using the Directional Scanner to probe players down an intended game mechanic? Should the combat probeÆs primary function be to simply spit out a bookmark? Should a low sec mission runner be expected to spam a button and sort through results every 5 seconds to increase his chance of survivability in low sec? Does this sound like intended game mechanics?
This is not an issue of my ship being destroyed or being podded. I expect this to happen every now and again. However, this is an issue of being able not just to survive in low sec, but also make a better living there than in high sec. Since the Directional Scanner is no longer effective for a mission runner my PVE ship spends more time docked, which means zero earning potential in low sec. As an example, think of the following scenario:
For a 45-minute mission in low sec and near a celestial object (since most missions occur celestial bodies) and with even one neutral in the system it would require a mission runner to smash the scan button and go over results 12 * 45 = 540 times, in addition to the pilot having to micromanage his ship! I ask that any CSM reading this bring this issue up to CCPÆs attention.
I have created a thread in Eve General Discussion Forum. If you would like to read further click here.
Thanks for reading.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Exlegion
Salva Veritate
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 20:25:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Exlegion on 14/07/2009 20:25:01
 Originally by: Myra2007
Exlegion confirmed here that it is indeed "easy" to survive missioning in lowsec without pressing the scan button 12 times per minute. I think we can safely assume this issue is settled. Thank you all for your time and patience.
Myra2007,
I expect players like you to try and discredit players whose style of play you donÆt agree with or even dislike. But I will ask you to stop slandering me, or try and keep it to a minimum at least. My problem isnÆt dying in low sec. I expect to die in low sec. The problem is profitability in low sec. With the current mechanics IÆm having to press a button and go over results every 5 seconds so that my mission deadspace doesnÆt get intruded on. Yes, I align. Yes, I drop cans to uncloak intruders. I believe I mention this in the OP above. Did you even read it? My point is that once my mission is busted the ball is on the piratesÆ courtside. Choosing to spam a button EVERY 5 SECONDS is stupidity! You KNOW IT. But you donÆt want this changed because you benefit from this. I donÆt expect you to change your mind, but to the rest of the readers what I say is the following:
1. Unless youÆre spamming the scan button and reading results every 5 seconds you will miss combat probes scanning you down.
2. Once your mission is busted in low sec there are procedures that can still offer you some safety. But once your mission is busted expect to make ZERO isk for quite a while. Nothing short from your own blob will change this.
3. At the moment there is no compromise in low sec. If you choose to be safe in low sec expect to make way less isk than you would in high sec. No other options on the slider. ThatÆs it.
Before the probe changes alert players at least had a chance to pick up combat probes on the directional scanner that would allow them to save their mission deadspaces. Protecting your deadspace makes the difference whether you will be successful in low sec or not.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 22:09:00 -
[3]
Santiago,
My concern isn't just staying alive in low sec. I've already said it numerous times but we keep going in circles. I not only want to extend my survivability in low sec. I want to profit in low sec!
YES, I CAN ALIGN AND WARP OUT WHEN MY MISSION IS PROBED DOWN.
YES, I CAN DROP CANS TO DETECT PIRATES ONCE MY MISSION IS PROBED DOWN.
YES, I CAN REMAIN DOCKED, OR GO FIGHT THE PIRATES BY BRINGING A BIGGER BLOB.
YES, I CAN WAIT UNTIL THEY LEAVE BY STAYING NEATLY DOCKED UP.
But what can I do in order to protect my mission deadspace location from being discovered by players using D-scan to probe me? Yes, I can dock every time a neutral is in the area. Yes, I can fight them, yes, I can do other things. But I'm still NOT MAKING ISK WITH MY SHIP DOCKED UP BECAUSE THERE IS A NEUTRAL IN THE SYSTEM AND I DON'T KNOW IF HE'S SCANNING ME OR NOT. YES! This has happened to me a few times already, twice last week alone!
So please, tell me how I can remain profitable with even one neutral in the system?
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Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.14 22:31:00 -
[4]
Thanks, Marlona Sky. It's comforting to see you recognize there is a problem, even if we may not have a solution for it. It's certainly a break from the usual spam of "STOP BEING LAZY!1!", "GREEDY CAREBEAR!1!", "GO BACK TO HI SEC LULZ!1!".
Anyway, It's nice to see some people recognize and understand what it is I'm trying to say, even though some times I'm not that clear I admit :).
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Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.15 11:20:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Exlegion on 15/07/2009 11:27:00
CommanderData211,
I haven't done a good job explaining how changing the probing mechanics would improve profitability. But in a nutshell here it is:
Pre-Apocrypha - I could mission in low sec even when neutrals and pirates were in the system. Why? because I had a window of at least 30-45 seconds to detect probes. I had a better chance at detecting them.
Post-Apocrypha û Even with one neutral in system I have to dock my PVE ship (ie, the profit earner) and do something else because I have no idea whether that neutral is probing me or not. What I do afterwards is irrelevant, whether itÆs go fight, go dock, go twiddle my thumbs, go blob, it doesnÆt matter. One neutral in my system means STOP EARNING ISK. And no other safety measure will help this situation.In order to use my directional scanner ôproperlyö I would need to be bashing it every 5 seconds. ItÆs just physically impossible considering I have to read the results and micromanage the ship all at the same time. IÆd probably last 10 minutes before having to quit for the day.
People keep suggesting ôdrop a can at warp-inö, ôstay alignedö which is very good advice to try and keep my ship alive but does NOTHING MORE. Once my deadspace is discovered my profits hit the floor.
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Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
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Posted - 2009.07.16 11:19:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Tortugan
So uh... quick question: Why the hell does it matter if someone's scanning you down if you're already aligned out? The moment you see a hostile on grid, you have about a 3 second window to **** yourself and press warp before you get locked down- more if they're in something larger than a cruiser.
I explained it here.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
|
Posted - 2009.07.16 23:05:00 -
[7]
Originally by: ChinaWillGrowLarger
People have been using the D-Scanner in this manner since before the latest probe re-vamp; and were doing so when it was chance based even before that!
This is what the D-Scanner is for.
There is one underlying difference. Pre-Apocrypha probes were in space for a hell of a lot longer than just 5 seconds.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
|
Posted - 2009.07.16 23:10:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Hairy Sue
Its easy, with practice, to make yourself pretty much totally safe whilst running missions in lowsec. Briefly, its to do with aligning your ship, watching local, and using the scanner. I wont go into details here but feel free to mail me and I can give you the hints and tips that will keep you safe everytime 
Thanks, but my concern isn't surviving in low sec. I think I have that pretty well managed. My problem is not being able to protect my deadspace when missioning. Before Apocrypha, an alert mission runner had a decent chance at detecting probes in space before getting busted. After Apocrypha there is only a 5-second window. If I am in low sec to make profits I just cannot take that risk after the patch. What I'm asking is for CCP to increase that window from 5 seconds to something more reasonable.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
|
Posted - 2009.07.17 02:07:00 -
[9]
Difference between two systems.
Pre-Apocrypha: I could still mission even with neutrals and pirates in the system as long as probes were not visible on my scanner, because there was a reasonable probability that I wasn't being scanned.
Post-Apocrypha: Probers can do their probing with directional scanner almost exclusively, only having to rely on probes for about 5 seconds. What this translates is DONT MISSION WITH EVEN ONE NEUTRAL IN SYSTEM.
Again, before Apocrypha I could still mission even with neuts and pirates in the system as long as I was paying attention. After Apocrypha I cannot take that chance anymore because the odds stack greatly against me.
Yes, there are other precautions I can take NOT TO GET KILLED, such as dropping a can at warp-in, aligning, etc. This doesn't protect my mission itself. It simply gives me chance to get out of there alive.
ANYTHING ELSE I DO, even bringing in my own blob, will not allow me to bring my isk earner out (my PVE ship). Basically, one neutral in system = DONT MAKE ISK.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
|
Posted - 2009.07.17 02:12:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Hairy Sue
Lowsec is tougher then highsec, and rightly so. Its about surviving, and is in fact very easy to do. Its not about risk free isk - if that is what you want go to high sec.
I don't just want to survive in low sec. I want to make ISK in low sec. I know how to survive in low sec quite well. But the reasons for me being there are dwindling. I can no longer assume that if I don't see probes on my scanner chances are I'm not being probed. <== Thinking this after Apocrypha is A VERY rash decision. By the way, I don't want a fail-proof system (100% accuracy). I just want a system that just as pre-Apocrypha, gives me a fair chance at detecting probes. That is all I'm asking for. A 5-second window is ridiculous.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
|
Posted - 2009.07.17 02:41:00 -
[11]
It's not the same.
In one scenario I'm still able to mission as long as I'm careful and watching my onboard scanner. Post-Apocrypha I cannot take that risk, my scanner is unreliable. One situation I can still make isk. On another situation I can't.
For example:
Pre-apoc: 5 neutrals in system. I can still mission up until point I see probes on scanner.
Post-apoc: Scanner is almost completely useless. I'm better off docking.
See the difference?
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
|
Posted - 2009.07.17 02:43:00 -
[12]
And remember that pre-Apoc it took time placing the probes in place. At least it took more than just 5 seconds. Scanner for mission runners is now crap. It doesn't help unless you're spamming it every 5 seconds.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
|
Posted - 2009.07.17 02:49:00 -
[13]
And if you insist it's the same, then just give me the thumbs up in increasing the window in detecting probes to something much higher than 5 seconds, since after all, it's the same and won't affect anything, right?.  .
It's all I'm asking and as you put it, it's the same.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
|
Posted - 2009.07.17 11:34:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Tortugan
In either situation, you just stay aligned, and if you see a neutral/hostile on grid, you warp off. There's no reason to even check your scanner for probes- just be ready to warp off if they enter your mission.
So basically, you're telling me forget the broken onboard scanner, just warp off once you're found! Again, having my mission deadspace found isn't good for profits! Do you run missions in low sec for profit? I want a way to keep an eye on probes so I don't compromise my mission deadspace!
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
Exlegion
Caldari
Salva Veritate
|
Posted - 2009.07.17 11:44:00 -
[15]
I think you know the onboard scanner now is no good to us. Yet you insist that things are the same as pre-Apoc. I've told you already:
Pre-Apoc I would not have a need to warp off if I didn't see probes with my onboard scanner because it meant there is a reasonable chance that I wasn't being probed even with pirates in the system. I could still run mission by keeping my eye on the scanner.
Now my PVE ship spends most of its time docked up because compromising my mission deadspace is way too easy now.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
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