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Triskie	Posted - 2009.07.13 09:58:00 - [1] Hi, As a new player ive been salvaging other peoples missions with some little success. While doing this ive noticed some angry attitude towards me and others of the salvaging profession. Some have even gone as far as to use some very colourful language in a very threatening context. Lucky for them really that i dont petition others (unless it was to become extreme). So ive asked around, made a petition and read up on it. In the eyes of CCP anyone can salvage anywhere. In the eye of almost everyone else ive encountered, salvaging wrecks you did not shoot down in the first place is a lowly thing to do. Strange i thought, seeing as how the game developers have stated (several times it seems) that demanding ownership rights to salvage is unreasonable. Even other people who dont mission run think the mission runners are right? But then someone playing devils advocate raised a very good point in Motsu local. If salvage belongs to anyone.. then why cant anyone use a tractor beam on it? Why cant anyone shoot it down?. It seems the the rules of wrecks is a little inconsistent and maybe a source of some of the frustration and anger ive been seeing. Surely it shoud be one way or the other. Give ownership to wrecks to the person that shot down the ship in the first place or let the salvager's tractor beam or shoot them down as well. What do you guys think of the logic of this situation?
Kerfira	Posted - 2009.07.13 10:08:00 - [2] The WRECK doesn't belong to anyone. The LOOT CAN inside (which is sometimes empty) belongs to the shooter. Thus only the shooter can use tractor beams. Game mechanics might be a little non-intuitive, but the basic premise that salvage doesn't belong to anyone is good and proper. It could also be argued that loot shouldn't belong to anyone, but losing the criminal flag on stealing loot would make it far too hard to bait mission runners into attacking you and then promptly getting killed Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Triskie	Posted - 2009.07.13 10:13:00 - [3] Originally by: Kerfira The WRECK doesn't belong to anyone. The LOOT CAN inside (which is sometimes empty) belongs to the shooter. Thus only the shooter can use tractor beams. But surely (remember im new here so i probably dont know what im talking about) CCP could code it where if you blew up a wreck a cargo container with the loot inside would appear. Just like when you salvage a wreck with loot in it.. a cargo container appears, right?
Jint Hikaru Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2009.07.13 10:27:00 - [4] So for every ship that gets popped in space, there would have to be 2 things appear rather than 1.... Thats twice the work for the 'WhatTheHellsOutThereInSpace' database. I think its fine how it is. I am fully in support of ninja salvaging as a profession (note: I am NOT one, before someone flame me), however if a ninja could tractor someone elses wrecks in a mission, I think it would make things too easy for them. ------------------------ Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager "I've got a couple of Strippers on my ship... and they just love to dance!" ------------------------
Mawusi	Posted - 2009.07.13 10:37:00 - [5] Or they could just make it so that empty wrecks can be tractored by anyone....
Triskie	Posted - 2009.07.13 10:40:00 - [6] Originally by: Jint Hikaru So for every ship that gets popped in space, there would have to be 2 things appear rather than 1.... Thats twice the work for the 'WhatTheHellsOutThereInSpace' database. Sorry i should of been clearer. The cargo container would only appear when the wreck was destroyed.. either from being shot or salvaged. With a mission runner being the only one able to tractor beam the wreck in it gives some legitimacy to their argument that the wreck is theirs in the first place. But meh, its no biggie really. Most salvage i get is the stuff in the previous stage of a mission that the missioner as left anyway.
TheBlueMonkey Gallente Ministers Of Destruction	Posted - 2009.07.13 11:01:00 - [7] egh Salvaging wrecks is free game, there are additional skills required to use a salvager in the first place. In my mind it's the same as finding a plex that someone is running and them not having a codebreaker. Yes it's annoying when people scan you down and start salvaging the wrecks but that's the way eve is. Either find a way of dealing with it, live with it in muffled anger or go play WoW -- If there's no profit to be made you need to travel further afield.
Ghengis Tia	Posted - 2009.07.13 13:50:00 - [8] Altho I accept that ninja salvaging is part of the game, I certainly don't have to like it nor the players who do it. Why don't you just fly your own damn missions and create your own wrecks? Or just go ratting fer crissakes. You've stated that you're aware of what most players think of this endeavor. Unless you get your kicks ****ing other players off, there are other, much more lucrative ways of earning Isk in Eve. Why don't you try some of them?
Zartanic	Posted - 2009.07.13 14:10:00 - [9] Edited by: Zartanic on 13/07/2009 14:14:23 Edited by: Zartanic on 13/07/2009 14:13:31 I'm very surprised you think it won't annoy players. They mission to loot and salvage, after going through that effort some idiot comes along and takes the salvage from them for no risk. As missioners often have to use separate salvage ships of course they do not do it as they go along, that would take forever. Even worse the player can do nothing about it as they are not flagged. If they could players wouldn't care, they could jump in their PVP ship and that would be that. If the salvagers were not thieves they would mission like everyone else. I don't mind the mechanic but to see it as anything but kill stealing is naive. They are just as bad (or good If you like) as suicide gankers as they are feeding off others effort for no risk. The principle of salvage in the real world though is similar to the game though. I wrote a car off driving in Portugal many years ago and it was 'salavged' while I spent a few hours in Hospital It was entirely legal and there was nothing I could do about it. At least it kept the roads free of wrecked cars I suppose:)
Aviditas	Posted - 2009.07.13 14:41:00 - [10] Geee..youre stealing a substantial portion of someones mission income and you dont understand why they get mad? Youre a vulture living off the fruits of others efforts. Dont expect to get any respect.

Hornet2060 Caldari	Posted - 2009.07.13 14:52:00 - [11] Originally by: Aviditas Geee..youre stealing a substantial portion of someones mission income and you dont understand why they get mad? Youre a vulture living off the fruits of others efforts. Dont expect to get any respect. Well stated Avid. If you are so interested in salvaging, just venture into the various system roid belts,lots of people kill rats and leave the wrecks without salvaging. Stealing someones mission wrecks will get you podded just on principle.
Triskie	Posted - 2009.07.13 14:54:00 - [12] Ah, The few posters above is the type attitude i have encountered unfortunately.. yet toned down slightly. If you look at this logically you all being very unreasonable. The game rules state that wrecks have no ownership yet someone how you claim it is not so. I said before i dont do this to actively annoy you. As an explorer its the best way to make isk and learn the ropes in probing. PS Oh. Please try and keep the thread civil without resorting to insults, thanks.
TheBlueMonkey Gallente Ministers Of Destruction	Posted - 2009.07.13 15:04:00 - [13] Originally by: Triskie Ah, As an explorer its the best way to make isk and learn the ropes in probing. Quote: 70mil from WH in 20min or 25mil from a hacking site says you're wrong. People will always moan about this though. Same as suicide gankers, same as going to mine in lowsec\0.0 with no backup and getting popped. Eve's not a safe place, get used to it -- If there's no profit to be made you need to travel further afield.
Aviditas	Posted - 2009.07.13 15:06:00 - [14] Edited by: Aviditas on 13/07/2009 15:09:11 I dont give a flying feck what the 'game mechanics' are. LvL 4 mission runners have invested weeks to months of training skills, upwards of a billion isk (for a really high end ship) and spent personal time learning the mission particulars. I spent the time and ammo to make the kill. And here you are new and crying cause we dont feel the need to subsidize your life so you can 'learn probing?' Thats pathetic. CCP dumbed down probing to the point that any idiot can do it. If you really wanna learn probing and make FAR more isk go look for plexes and wormholes. Don't expect us to feel sympathy. Youre leeching, pure and simple.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.07.13 15:14:00 - [15] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 13/07/2009 15:15:30 Quote: But then someone playing devils advocate raised a very good point in Motsu local. If salvage belongs to anyone.. then why cant anyone use a tractor beam on it? Why cant anyone shoot it down?. It seems the the rules of wrecks is a little inconsistent and maybe a source of some of the frustration and anger ive been seeing. The wreck is yellow and untractorable because wrecks are also loot containers (and loot does belong to the missionrunner). Anyway...of course you will see a lot of anger. Many missionrunners have the most inflated sense of entitlement I've ever seen, and they will *** at anyone or anything that could potentially reduce their ISK/Hour. Frankly, you should have been here for the old days. The emorage that existed when ninjaing first became popular was absolutely hilarious. Now, most missionrunners a) Accept it, realizing it's a valid game mechanic b) Accept it, disliking it but realizing that emorage just makes them look stupid c) Rage silently I think most are B, yet some are A and C. Quote:** The few posters above is the type attitude i have encountered unfortunately.. yet toned down slightly. If you look at this logically you all being very unreasonable. The game rules state that wrecks have no ownership yet someone how you claim it is not so. I said before i dont do this to actively annoy you. As an explorer its the best way to make isk and learn the ropes in probing. Of course they are. This forum is primarily visited by missionrunners, and as I said above, they have a ridiculous sense of entitlement, even if it wasn't a videogame and only coveted space money was at stake.
Triskie	Posted - 2009.07.13 15:25:00 - [16] Originally by: TheBlueMonkey Originally by: Triskie Ah, As an explorer its the best way to make isk and learn the ropes in probing. Quote: 70mil from WH in 20min or 25mil from a hacking site says you're wrong. People will always moan about this though. Same as suicide gankers, same as going to mine in lowsec\0.0 with no backup and getting popped. Eve's not a safe place, get used to it Hacking is about 13 days away for me to train but this 70 mill in 20 mins worm hole stuff sounds really interesting? If that's possible ill be there in a shot. Is there some sort of guide i could read up on it? I thought worm holes where just filled with drones (sleepers?) that would rip me to shreads?
Triskie	Posted - 2009.07.13 15:32:00 - [17] Originally by: Aviditas Edited by: Aviditas on 13/07/2009 15:09:11 I dont give a flying feck what the 'game mechanics' are. LvL 4 mission runners have invested weeks to months of training skills, upwards of a billion isk (for a really high end ship) and spent personal time learning the mission particulars. I spent the time and ammo to make the kill. And here you are new and crying cause we dont feel the need to subsidize your life so you can 'learn probing?' Thats pathetic. CCP dumbed down probing to the point that any idiot can do it. If you really wanna learn probing and make FAR more isk go look for plexes and wormholes. Don't expect us to feel sympathy. Youre leeching, pure and simple. Whoah there, take it easy. Remember the "Its just a game mantra". I'm not crying about anything. I was just querying about the inconsistent mechanics of salvaging (salvager not being able to tractor beam, not being able to shoot it) and its partly this, i think, that the reason why some of guys are confused by the ownership of the wrecks. I'm partially on your side on this. I'm saying just make it one way or the other.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.07.13 15:53:00 - [18] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 13/07/2009 15:53:05 Quote: EDIT: Kahega Amielden, I think i would prefer option C in most cases.. unfortunately its not what i have got. I don't see what you're getting at. They're getting ***ed off because, in a competitive video game, you're providing them a very slight inconvenience*. To me, that's hilarious, and I wish -every- missionrunner gave me a vocal response
Triskie	Posted - 2009.07.13 15:59:00 - [19] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 13/07/2009 15:53:05 Quote: EDIT: Kahega Amielden, I think i would prefer option C in most cases.. unfortunately its not what i have got. I don't see what you're getting at. They're getting ***ed off because, in a competitive video game, you're providing them a very slight inconvenience*. To me, that's hilarious, and I wish -every- missionrunner gave me a vocal response lol, Fair enough. I've read a few of the stories by you guys (and players like you in other games) and had a good chortle at them. As much as i have been tempted i just cant do it myself. To damn nice for my own good i think.
Vasundhara	Posted - 2009.07.13 16:10:00 - [20] If children take the effort to build a sand-castle on the beach I'm pretty sure there is no law that says that you can't knock it down (assuming you aren't kicking sand in their faces). The thing I don't understand is why the kids and parents get so ticked at me when I do it, afterall the sand doesn't belong to them and it's all within fair use of the beach. Yes, the game is designed to allow compeditive salvage but to be surprised that people will treat you with open hostility is a little naive. It generally takes more effort to make the wrecks than to salvage them and so some mission-runners can get ticked when you get a free ride on their efforts. As far as making use of tractor beams the same, I would guess CCP decided to give the owner of the wreck an advantage in that sense. Making it be perfectly the same just for the sake of it seems more the result of compulsion than anything else. Adhering to any sense of realism or pre-existing convention is not a high priority compared to achieving the game-balance the developers happen to prefer. Lastly, fostering anger and conflict is by design. Granted I think EvE would be a better place if more of that hostility were focused towards good sportsman-ship rather than jerk-play and tear-drinking. In theory you can commit or respond to acts of aggression without inflaming emotions or calling someones mother dirty things but then again, this is EvE...

Zartanic	Posted - 2009.07.13 16:15:00 - [21] Originally by: Triskie Ah, The few posters above is the type attitude i have encountered unfortunately.. yet toned down slightly. If you look at this logically you all being very unreasonable. The game rules state that wrecks have no ownership yet someone how you claim it is not so. I said before i dont do this to actively annoy you. As an explorer its the best way to make isk and learn the ropes in probing. PS Oh. Please try and keep the thread civil without resorting to insults, thanks. It's not the best way, I probe and don't hunt for other players loot. You can put it how you like but if you take something others have killed then don't expect a nice cup of tee and biccies from them. Why don't you mission run and see for yourself? I really am fine about it but to say all mission runners should be fine about it too is hilarious. Your taking the loot they wanted and earned for themselves, missions are free, if you want the loot get it yourself or be prepared for others to call you a leech. In nature many leeches or parasites have a benefit to the host, you do not, in fact the reverse. And like flees we want you out of our hair.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.07.13 16:23:00 - [22] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 13/07/2009 16:25:36 Quote: Fair enough. I've read a few of the stories by you guys (and players like you in other games) and had a good chortle at them. As much as i have been tempted i just cant do it myself. To damn nice for my own good i think. I'm normally nice too...but adults (avg. eve player age is 28) throwing temper tantrums over internet spaceships gets an exception
Triskie	Posted - 2009.07.13 16:24:00 - [23] Originally by: Vasundhara If children take the effort to build a sand-castle on the beach I'm pretty sure there is no law that says that you can't knock it down (assuming you aren't kicking sand in their faces). The thing I don't understand is why the kids and parents get so ticked at me when I do it, afterall the sand doesn't belong to them and it's all within fair use of the beach. Yes, the game is designed to allow compeditive salvage but to be surprised that people will treat you with open hostility is a little naive. It generally takes more effort to make the wrecks than to salvage them and so some mission-runners can get ticked when you get a free ride on their efforts. As far as making use of tractor beams the same, I would guess CCP decided to give the owner of the wreck an advantage in that sense. Making it be perfectly the same just for the sake of it seems more the result of compulsion than anything else. Adhering to any sense of realism or pre-existing convention is not a high priority compared to achieving the game-balance the developers happen to prefer. Lastly, fostering anger and conflict is by design. Granted I think EvE would be a better place if more of that hostility were focused towards good sportsman-ship rather than jerk-play and tear-drinking. In theory you can commit or respond to acts of aggression without inflaming emotions or calling someones mother dirty things but then again, this is EvE... 1/ A disagree that the salvaging of wrecks in Eve online equates to the tormenting of small children while having a day out on the beach. If you did do such a thing in front of child i think you might be arrested anyway. Breach of the peace maybe? I'm not sure. 2/ I agree there should be more good natured sportsmanship in any MMO instead inflaming emotions etc etc.
Triskie	Posted - 2009.07.13 16:36:00 - [24] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 13/07/2009 16:25:36 Quote: Fair enough. I've read a few of the stories by you guys (and players like you in other games) and had a good chortle at them. As much as i have been tempted i just cant do it myself. To damn nice for my own good i think. I'm normally nice too...but adults (avg. eve player age is 28) throwing temper tantrums over internet spaceships gets an exception It is a bit silly on theirpart.. I dont think i have ever raged at a game mechanic that worked unfavourably towards me. Never pm'ed anyone to insult them after pvp. Tried my best to be reasonable before putting them on ignore. I've been playing MMO's since 2001. Still surprises me.
Gavin DeVries	Posted - 2009.07.13 16:44:00 - [25] My personal viewpoint is that if I made the wrecks I should get the salvage. However, my viewpoint is not that of the game developers, and the developers are the ones who set the game rules. Since the game allows it, I simply deal with it. Now, that said, if they flagged the salvage to be owned by the person who created the wreck, it would make zero difference! They absolutely will not make it so that someone else cannot activate a Salvager on a wreck that isn't theirs. So, all it would do is flag the ninja as a thief, allowing the mission runner to shoot at them. If they steal loot from the wreck this already happens, and the result is usually a dead mission runner. So, the ninjas would keep taking salvage and maybe get a few more fights as a result. CONCORD only deals with aggression, not theft, so they won't blow up someone who steals. The game is designed to allow theft. End of story. ______________________________________________________ Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you?
Vasundhara	Posted - 2009.07.13 17:33:00 - [26] Originally by: Triskie 1/ A disagree that the salvaging of wrecks in Eve online equates to the tormenting of small children while having a day out on the beach. If you did do such a thing in front of child i think you might be arrested anyway. Breach of the peace maybe? I'm not sure. Yes, bad analogy I suppose. The intended point was that something can be deemed fair and legal and yet still be seen as immoral or unfair. Ownership is as much a matter of perception as it is enforcement. If I shake nuts out of a tree I expect I will be able to collect them, but if squirrels come and take them faster than I can collect them I'll be irritated with the squirrels. The 'rights' to the nuts are of little consequence because either way I'm going to be ticked that I didn't get to enjoy all or part of the fruits of my labor.
Inat Mivea	Posted - 2009.07.13 17:59:00 - [27] i am not well read on RL maritime wrecks in international waters but I believe that anyone can claim salvage on a wreck, However you cannot attach chains to it and drag it across the sea bottom :) Not the best analogy but the way I see it, NOT being able to tractor a wreck that doesnt 'belong' to you gives some advantage to the 'owner' and may stave off some etears
Kyra Felann Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies	Posted - 2009.07.13 18:35:00 - [28] Originally by: TheBlueMonkey egh Salvaging wrecks is free game, there are additional skills required to use a salvager in the first place. In my mind it's the same as finding a plex that someone is running and them not having a codebreaker. Yes it's annoying when people scan you down and start salvaging the wrecks but that's the way eve is. Either find a way of dealing with it, live with it in muffled anger or go play WoW You didn't read the, OP, did you?
g0ggalor	Posted - 2009.07.13 18:39:00 - [29] I think the mechanics are fine the way they are. If there are mission runners that mission specifically for the salvage, then they would be better of being ninjas themselves. I think its a great way for a new player to make decent isk. Certainly better than grinding up the standings to run L4s effectively themselves. I don't loot or salvage anymore, so I could care less if a ninja pops in my mish. More often then not though, it is a baiter who steals loot and thinks I'm stupid enough to shoot them with my mission ship. When I did loot/salvage and a ninja came in, I just blew up the wrecks he was trying to get.
DCThunder Agent-Orange Coalition of Free Stars	Posted - 2009.07.13 18:57:00 - [30] Originally by: Inat Mivea i am not well read on RL maritime wrecks in international waters but I believe that anyone can claim salvage on a wreck, However you cannot attach chains to it and drag it across the sea bottom :) Not the best analogy but the way I see it, NOT being able to tractor a wreck that doesnt 'belong' to you gives some advantage to the 'owner' and may stave off some etears RL maritime law regarding ownership of wrecks and the right to salvage and profit from those wrecks is extremely complex. Each country has differing laws and the ownership depends on where the wreck is located (territorial or international waters, for instance), how old it is, if it was a warship or merchant ship and many other factors. There is currently a major case in the US federal courts on the right of a for profit company that discovered and salvaged gold coins and other treasure from a Spanish galleon that sank over 400 years ago. The Spanish say the gold belongs to them, the American company says we found it and we've got it, it's ours. IIRC there are also issues with sunken German U-boats that have been found, not to mention such wrecks as Titanic or Bismarck. So unless you're gonna add a legal system to EVE (why not, it has everything else), don't go down the RL maritime law road.



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