| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
sushistrip
   |
Posted - 2009.07.14 00:40:00 -
[1]
Edited by: sushistrip on 14/07/2009 00:40:48
To make a slightly long story short.....My friend and I were sitting on a gate in low sec with our 2 rapiers for god knows what reason (=P) and a flashy hurricane jumps through taking gate guns. For some reason he decides to jump back through to us so we lock him up. Now my question is.....shouldn't 2 of the ships in game that are specifically meant to keep you from moving keep a hurricane pinned down long enough for the gate guns to kill him?...not to mention the 8 t2 drones on him and our autos......the answer is no apparently. Funny thing is, he did this twice. He got back to the gate the first time with 50% armor, and for some reason jumped back again, and made it back to the gate....again......with 4 t2 webs on him.....
My point.....webs need fixing, or change something about the rapier.
Soryz for the wall of text btw, wouldn't let me preview ='(
|
Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
Pax Romana Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 00:52:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: sushistrip
Now my question is.....shouldn't 2 of the ships in game that are specifically meant to keep you from moving keep a hurricane pinned down long enough for the gate guns to kill him?
While Minmatar recons get web bonuses, recognise that they only get web range bonuses and not strength. Any ship in the game will reduce the target's speed by just as much, so in this context I'm not convinced it's fair to say that the Minnie recons are "specifically meant to keep you from moving". Rather, the range bonus suggests that they're meant to control range from afar, being able to web ships without being webbed back themselves.
Quote:
He got back to the gate...with 4 t2 webs on him.....
My point.....webs need fixing, or change something about the rapier.
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that you didn't have a warp scrambler on him. An overloaded MWD will increase a ship's speed by a factor of 10, so putting a single scrambler on him would have meant it would have taken him 10 times longer to get back to the gate (and the guns would have almost certainly popped him).
Quickly throwing something together in EFT, a Hurricane with overloaded MWD does 195m/s when hit with 4 T2 webs (which are stacking nerfed, in case you weren't aware). It does 22m/s when hit with 4 webs and warp scrambled (or in fact 39m/s when hit by two webs and a scram).
The short version is that disabling a target's MWD is critical if you want to hold someone as slow as possible. Either fit a scrambler and head into range, or team up with a Gallente recon if you don't want to get that close.
Also, at less than 200m/s with the webs on him, this Hurricane would have been easy to bump if you'd been sitting on the gate and headed towards him. You can't just expect to sit out at 30km+, slap a few webs on the target and for him to now be stationary.
Quote:
Soryz for the wall of text btw, wouldn't let me preview
I'm more upset that you seem not to notice that ellipsis is always three periods, not five or six... 
|
ThaDollaGenerale
The Illuminati.
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 01:04:00 -
[3]
................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
|
ShadowGod56
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 01:09:00 -
[4]
congratulations you broke the forums
why the **** is every thing ridiculously horizontal
|
sushistrip
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 01:25:00 -
[5]
Edited by: sushistrip on 14/07/2009 01:28:06
Edited by: sushistrip on 14/07/2009 01:27:45
Originally by: Gartel Reiman
Originally by: sushistrip
Now my question is.....shouldn't 2 of the ships in game that are specifically meant to keep you from moving keep a hurricane pinned down long enough for the gate guns to kill him?
While Minmatar recons get web bonuses, recognise that they only get web range bonuses and not strength. Any ship in the game will reduce the target's speed by just as much, so in this context I'm not convinced it's fair to say that the Minnie recons are "specifically meant to keep you from moving". Rather, the range bonus suggests that they're meant to control range from afar, being able to web ships without being webbed back themselves.
Quote:
He got back to the gate...with 4 t2 webs on him.....
My point.....webs need fixing, or change something about the rapier.
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that you didn't have a warp scrambler on him. An overloaded MWD will increase a ship's speed by a factor of 10, so putting a single scrambler on him would have meant it would have taken him 10 times longer to get back to the gate (and the guns would have almost certainly popped him).
Quickly throwing something together in EFT, a Hurricane with overloaded MWD does 195m/s when hit with 4 T2 webs (which are stacking nerfed, in case you weren't aware). It does 22m/s when hit with 4 webs and warp scrambled (or in fact 39m/s when hit by two webs and a scram).
The short version is that disabling a target's MWD is critical if you want to hold someone as slow as possible. Either fit a scrambler and head into range, or team up with a Gallente recon if you don't want to get that close.
Also, at less than 200m/s with the webs on him, this Hurricane would have been easy to bump if you'd been sitting on the gate and headed towards him. You can't just expect to sit out at 30km+, slap a few webs on the target and for him to now be stationary.
Quote:
Soryz for the wall of text btw, wouldn't let me preview
I'm more upset that you seem not to notice that ellipsis is always three periods, not five or six...
I see ur point about range dictation.
Tell me again, why would I fit a scram on a rapier?
"this Hurricane would have been easy to bump if you'd been sitting on the gate and headed towards him"-----I'm suppose to bump people with my rapier to keep them from burning back to the gate?(thought that's what the webs were for =/)
"You can't just expect to sit out at 30km+, slap a few webs on the target and for him to now be stationary."------ I can't? Webs aren't suppose to stop you? What are they suppose to do? I thought thats why I bought this 130mill isk recon =/
|
Iria Ahrens
Amarr
101st Space Marine Force
Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 02:32:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Iria Ahrens on 14/07/2009 02:35:32
Originally by: ShadowGod56
congratulations you broke the forums
why the **** is every thing ridiculously horizontal
because Dollargeneral made a post with no spaces, so line break wouldn't work on his post so the forums went horizontal.
Quote:
"You can't just expect to sit out at 30km+, slap a few webs on the target and for him to now be stationary."------ I can't? Webs aren't suppose to stop you? What are they suppose to do? I thought thats why I bought this 130mill isk recon =/
webs stop no one, they just slow you down. Bumping stops people.
--
Nobody expects the Amarr Inquisition!
|
Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
Pax Romana Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 08:35:00 -
[7]
Originally by: sushistrip
Tell me again, why would I fit a scram on a rapier?
To disable the target's MWD. In order to reduce his speed by a factor of 10. You know, since you wanted to slow him down.
(Not that I'm suggesting a Rapier would have been the best ship for this; pair with an Arazu for awesomeness, or just get any old ship to sit on the gate with a scram and MWD.)
Quote:
"this Hurricane would have been easy to bump if you'd been sitting on the gate and headed towards him"-----I'm suppose to bump people with my rapier to keep them from burning back to the gate?(thought that's what the webs were for =/)
Yes, you're supposed to bump people to stop them from burning back to the gate. Webs slow people down, making them take longer to get somewhere, but they don't stop them from moving (especially if you don't shut down their MWD). With 4 T2 webs on a ship, they're travelling roughly ten times slower than unwebbed, so it'll take them ten times longer to get anywhere. This might be enough for your purposes, but if it's not, then you need to take further action.
Anyway, you don't have to bump people with your Rapier; you could have someone else bump them with a frigate easily enough. Bear in mind that the bumping ship will probably be quite safe; if the Hurricane does fire on it, he's not going to be able to jump for 60 seconds anyway, so he's effectively condemning himself to death.
Quote:
"You can't just expect to sit out at 30km+, slap a few webs on the target and for him to now be stationary."------ I can't? Webs aren't suppose to stop you? What are they suppose to do? I thought thats why I bought this 130mill isk recon =/
No, you can't, and no, webs aren't meant to stop you. They're meant to slow you down, and so are excellent for long-range range dictation, and are also a good component of being able to stop someone. If they're travelling slower, it gives you more time to get in position for a bump, and makes it harder for them to avoid said bump. Or you could just scram + quad web, so that they're going about 1% of their unwebbed overheated-MWD speed.
The point is, you really can't just stick webs on someone and assume you've deprived them of all movement. Especially in a Huginn/Rapier, where they quite possible have no counters at all to your webs. The reason why you bought this ship is irrelevant; I could buy a Dreadnaught because I thought it would be awesome at solopwning battleships, and when I find out it isn't that doesn't mean that dreadnaughts need a boost for solo PVP vs subcaps.
That's the crux of it really. Webs do not pin someone to the spot, they merely slow them down.
|
BigBobbom
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 09:04:00 -
[8]
Look at it this way, be glad you only missed an easy kill, rather than rage when a ceptor kills your BS b/c your web isn't slowing him down enough.
|
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 09:05:00 -
[9]
The incident you describe has little to do with webs and everything to do with the stupidly high HP of rigged buffer tanks.
As long as there is no significant disadvantage to filling ones low-slots with plates or mid-slots with extenders, you need 2-3k dps to kill even a multi-webbed target before it makes it back to gate.
CCP has asked for ideas and feedback on the coming rig additions as well as existing ones. I would suggest you drop by F&I and add your voice to the call for stacking penalties on ALL rigs to reduce the effect of trimark/extender rigs.
|
BigBobbom
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 09:12:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
The incident you describe has little to do with webs and everything to do with the stupidly high HP of rigged buffer tanks.
As long as there is no significant disadvantage to filling ones low-slots with plates or mid-slots with extenders, you need 2-3k dps to kill even a multi-webbed target before it makes it back to gate.
CCP has asked for ideas and feedback on the coming rig additions as well as existing ones. I would suggest you drop by F&I and add your voice to the call for stacking penalties on ALL rigs to reduce the effect of trimark/extender rigs.
Please cry more about buffer tanks, OP's hurricane was probably stupidly tanked, combined that at the speed of 200m/s he made it back to the gate under 1 min, and OP's 8t2 drones of unknown type did little to add to dmg of gate guns.
|
Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
Pax Romana Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 10:13:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
The incident you describe has little to do with webs and everything to do with the stupidly high HP of rigged buffer tanks.
Not really; as I stated above, the Hurricane was doing nearly 200m/s with those webs on him, and thus could have got back to jumping range in under 60 seconds. Gate guns do around 350 DPS I believe, so they'll only do about 20,000 damage in that time. Considering an unfitted Hurricane has 20,000 EHP, and that the Hurricane will have travelled a few km before getting webbed meaning the actual time is more like 45 second, plates/extenders have absolutely nothing to do with this. The problem is simply that the OP thought that webs alone would be enough to stop a ship burning back and jumping.
At the risk on being a broken record, adding a scram to the equation means the Hurricane would have taken nearly 10 minutes to get back to the gate at 22m/s. This would have been more than enough time to pop him even with multiple plates (gate guns alone will deal 200,000 damage in this time). Alternatively, having a ship on the gate ready to bump him would have worked wonders; this ship would have had at least 30 seconds to line up a good bump, and with the Hurricane travelling at 200m/s with poor agility from the MWD & webs, it would have been possible to bump it indefinitely.
As it happens I do agree with you in general that oversized plates are too easy to fit and there's very few situations where active tanking is worthwhile, which is unfortunate. However, I don't think you can blame this situation on plates as much as you can poor tactics and execution.
|
Rua
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 10:41:00 -
[12]
Arazu is in the same boat. If all it does is scram the guy then he slowboats back to the gate. If all a rapier does is web the guy he burns back to the gate. Combine the two? Ohhhhhhhhhh so that's how you gate camp :)
|
THEDON1
Dark-Rising
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 11:52:00 -
[13]
I do agree on this matter being a rapier pilot myself. the ships lacks in dammage and the fact 2 with 4 webs cant stop a ship MWDing back to the gate is just wrong CCP need to add a bonus to web strenth as well as range IMO to compensate the changes they have made to webs or this ship is useless like alot of other ships atm 
|
Ichandasil
Minmatar
Department of Defence
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 12:03:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Ichandasil on 14/07/2009 12:04:15
Originally by: BigBobbom
Look at it this way, be glad you only missed an easy kill, rather than rage when a ceptor kills your BS b/c your web isn't slowing him down enough.
lol, you're problem isn't that webs suck it's that your fits suck.
Large neuts are an amazing thing...
|
THEDON1
Dark-Rising
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 12:10:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Ichandasil
Edited by: Ichandasil on 14/07/2009 12:04:15
Originally by: BigBobbom
Look at it this way, be glad you only missed an easy kill, rather than rage when a ceptor kills your BS b/c your web isn't slowing him down enough.
lol, you're problem isn't that webs suck it's that your fits suck.
Large neuts are an amazing thing...
so u fit 3 webs to your rapiers do u ?
|
THEDON1
Dark-Rising
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 12:15:00 -
[16]
Edited by: THEDON1 on 14/07/2009 12:15:32
Originally by: Ichandasil
Edited by: Ichandasil on 14/07/2009 12:04:15
Originally by: BigBobbom
Look at it this way, be glad you only missed an easy kill, rather than rage when a ceptor kills your BS b/c your web isn't slowing him down enough.
lol, you're problem isn't that webs suck it's that your fits suck.
Large neuts are an amazing thing...
ive just looked at one of your amazing fits whats with the cap booster 200 and only x5 webs tut tut ?
copyed from a loss mail of yours i just found on google
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive 1
Cap Booster 200 5
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator 1
Faint Warp Disruptor I 1
Medium Capacitor Booster II 1
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator 1
Large Shield Extender II
 
|
Ichandasil
Minmatar
Department of Defence
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 12:24:00 -
[17]
lol, way to find the first Rapier I ever flew, woot!
Although you'd be hard pressed to find something more fail than a BS being killed by an inty...
|
THEDON1
Dark-Rising
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 12:38:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Ichandasil
lol, way to find the first Rapier I ever flew, woot!
Although you'd be hard pressed to find something more fail than a BS being killed by an inty...
i was drunk when i lost that pest to inty but i killed one in a claw the week before so that makes up for that, o and the other 400+ bs i have killed in the past as well maybee make up for that one?  want a 1 vs 1 ingame to sort this matter out? 
|
Ichandasil
Minmatar
Department of Defence
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 12:42:00 -
[19]
So I'm guessing you and BigBobbom are the one and the same?
Oh, and I'm sorry if I wounded your epeen, as it seems to be such a fragile thing.
|
THEDON1
Dark-Rising
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 12:45:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Ichandasil
So I'm guessing you and BigBobbom are the one and the same?
Oh, and I'm sorry if I wounded your epeen, as it seems to be such a fragile thing.
nope only one char. my eppen is fine my friend is that a no to the 1 vs 1 then awww  ok how about 2 vs 1 u and a friend vs me ? 
|
4THELULZ
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 13:03:00 -
[21]
Originally by: THEDON1
I do agree on this matter being a rapier pilot myself. the ships lacks in dammage and the fact 2 with 4 webs cant stop a ship MWDing back to the gate is just wrong CCP need to add a bonus to web strenth as well as range IMO to compensate the changes they have made to webs or this ship is useless like alot of other ships atm
Awwww baby wants his solopwnmobile.
If you genuinely think it's useless you're too clueless to be flying it. Please contract it over to my friends immediately who do fly Rapiers and actually know how to use them.
|
Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
Pax Romana Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 13:19:00 -
[22]
Originally by: THEDON1
I do agree on this matter being a rapier pilot myself. the ships lacks in dammage
Of course it lacks in damage, it's a cloaky e-war ship; it's meant to provide electronic warfare support for the rest of a gang, and it's generally accepted that the cloak leads to a tradeoff in DPS (which for an ewar ship is a great tradeoff to make).
Quote:
and the fact 2 with 4 webs cant stop a ship MWDing back to the gate is just wrong
According to you, yes. According to me, no. Please provide some evidence that this is in fact empirically wrong rather than just your own opinion.
Quote:
CCP need to add a bonus to web strenth as well as range IMO to compensate the changes they have made to webs
I don't think they do. They specifically lowered the strength of webs because they made combat too predictable and static; ships are still meant to be able to manouever and mvoe around while webbed, albeit slower. The four webs slow down a ship by 900%; that's pretty powerful as it is. But the web changes were specifically intended so that webs didn't essentially pin a ship in place, just lowered its speed substantially.
Part of the reason they're weaker now is that you can also remove 80-90% of a fast ship's speed with a warp scrambler; scram + web now is roughly equivalent to pre-nerf disruptor + web in terms of speed reduction. If you want a MWDing ship to slow down, scram it or stop complaining.
If the Rapier/Huginn got a web strength bonus, then we'd be back to the exact situation that CCP sought to avoid, only with those two ships. Which if anything is even worse, since it reverts the web change (it's still possible to completely pin a ship with webs), but only for those who have a Minnie recon in gang.
Quote:
or this ship is useless like alot of other ships atm
Not at all. The ability to web a target from 30-40km is fantastic, especially if the things you're trying to keep it away from are mobile (like other members of your gang). Minmatar recon + Gallente recon can point + web a target from 40km, and with damps on the Gallente ship they cannot even be locked by most ships at that range. Long-range webs are great too if you've got a nano-gang of sorts; your enemy can't effective sling-shot into overheated web range if he's dual-webbed.
And even for gatecamping, while they don't work as the sole speed-reducer, you have the luxury of applying them from a range that the target likely can't hit you at. Plus, Huginn/Rapier + Lachesis/Arazu is brutal (target down to less than 3% MWDing speed).
If you can't see the benefit of being able to reduce someone to a quarter of their speed from long-range, or how to make use of such an ability in gangs, then the Rapier isn't a good ship for you to use since that's what it does. But just because you can't see a use for this doesn't mean it is useless.
|
Cavazos
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 15:20:00 -
[23]
the webs need to be returned to how they were when they were 90%
|
Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum
Pax Romana Alliance
|
Posted - 2009.07.14 16:05:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Cavazos
the webs need to be returned to how they were when they were 90%
Why? They were changed for a reason, and that reason is no less valid now than it was then.
|
Roland Deschaines
Minmatar
Esquires Of Questionable Intention
|
Posted - 2009.07.15 18:05:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Cavazos
the webs need to be returned to how they were when they were 90%
Yes, and we should still be able to fit multiple MWDs and launch an unlimited number of drones.
--
Monsieur Rolly
|
Essence Praetor
Retribution. Inc.
|
Posted - 2009.07.16 00:15:00 -
[26]
I think the lesson here is that Rapier is not the preferred ship for what you wanted to do.
. . . and that you needed more dps.
But instead your calling for a web buff?? 
|
Omara Otawan
|
Posted - 2009.07.16 01:11:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 16/07/2009 01:13:39
The OP has somewhat of a point tbh.
Just look at Huginn vs. Interceptor, to put it bluntly its a joke how easy it is to burn off from the recon, basically you have to be ******ed to get your inty killed by a minnie recon unless you warp in right ontop of him.
If starting distance is >10-15km you are pretty much completely safe (unless ******ed, see above).
Edit: to clarify for those that dont fly the recons, by the time his speed dropped below yours (if you are fully nanoed btw) he is already way outside your 40km range.
|
Linq Beta
|
Posted - 2009.07.17 11:24:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 16/07/2009 01:13:39
The OP has somewhat of a point tbh.
Just look at Huginn vs. Interceptor, to put it bluntly its a joke how easy it is to burn off from the recon, basically you have to be ******ed to get your inty killed by a minnie recon unless you warp in right ontop of him.
If starting distance is >10-15km you are pretty much completely safe (unless ******ed, see above).
Edit: to clarify for those that dont fly the recons, by the time his speed dropped below yours (if you are fully nanoed btw) he is already way outside your 40km range.
Lol, I was going to check a different post until I saw this. You are being very narrow minded in that view, assuming the inty was already aligning away then he SHOULD be able to escape, apart from that your doing it wrong.
My main has never had an inty MWD away, maybe warp away before getting a lock, but not MWD away, otherwise you never stood a chance anyway.
Join a fleet, fit moar webs!
|
Victoria Davion
|
Posted - 2009.07.20 01:20:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 16/07/2009 01:13:39
The OP has somewhat of a point tbh.
Just look at Huginn vs. Interceptor, to put it bluntly its a joke how easy it is to burn off from the recon, basically you have to be ******ed to get your inty killed by a minnie recon unless you warp in right ontop of him.
If starting distance is >10-15km you are pretty much completely safe (unless ******ed, see above).
Edit: to clarify for those that dont fly the recons, by the time his speed dropped below yours (if you are fully nanoed btw) he is already way outside your 40km range.
I thought inty's were supposed to be tricky to catch? A well fitted ares can be nearly aligned for warp before you've spotted it on grid, and giving anything that fast a head-start won't do you any favours if you're trying to catch it. Regardless, they do get caught, and when that happens it's probably down to piloting skill (both inty and recon pilots) and lady luck.
Seems that everything is working as intended, and is working pretty well in most cases (this being one of them). A third pilot in another tackler, or change over to the Arazu/Lachesis for long range damps & scrams, and a better balanced gang. I would go with both if possible.
|
RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
|
Posted - 2009.07.20 11:21:00 -
[30]
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1120829
A possible solution/proposal the OP may find to be of interest.
I would suggest reading the entire OP...and the thread to ensure understanding .
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |