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Why PVP can be so painful, from a PVE perspective.

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Rho Legate	Posted - 2009.07.14 07:32:00 - [1] Now this is just my own opinion and experience, feel free to shoot me down on this, this is taken from the perspective of someone who apart from PVP-BASIC (Agony Unleashed) class had no idea what pvp could be like. Like alot of players who spend most of there time in high security space our only experience of PVP is when our agent gives us a mission in low sec, we end up podded or worse. We go back to our pve missions and our trade, but as i've heard from alot of people who pve that its very easy to become detatched from eve, it becomes just an exercise of evemon/eft and logging in to switch skills, the availability of GTC trade also means that there isn't even that draw to make money in eve aslong as you have the rl cash. I like most went down the path of bigger is better, by the time I had my destroyer I wanted a battleship/titan/carrier lol.. The PVE side of eve actually encourages this, one of the first things you learn is all those e-war skills you need in PVP don't affect npc's. I don't want the pve side removed or toned down, I would instead love to see the npc ships you fight be effected and properly effect you, give the AI a much needed kick in the butt. I am not asking for uber intelligent AI I know that has its own problems but a shift towards a more realistic use, yes it would make pve more challenging and harder. We see it very clearly in battleclinic the clear divide between pve loadouts and pvp, how much better in the long term would it be if you hadto use the same kind of loadouts to face npc enemies as to face players and imagine an entire generation of Eve noobies who from day one in npc fighting practice basic ewar abilities and skills. I guess this is abit of a rant and for that I apologies but at the moment the way the pve side works in EVE it is actually detrimental to the teachings of PVP. This would be a win win situation for both the PVE brigade who would get a more lively and interactive fight while at the same time give them a chance and a ship fit that could handle danger in low sec, wouldn't force them into pvp as alot don't want it but would mean they weren't "sheep", and as for the PVP people well you would get a better quality of challenge and a run for your money.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.07.14 08:07:00 - [2] IMO you are absolutely correct. The totally unrealistic NPCs that are enountered while ratting/missioning are a MAJOR cause of the PvE/PvP divide. If a mission fit looked a lot more like a PvP fit then that would at a stroke solve many of the problems that get discussed on this forum. Also it would make missions a hell of a lot more interesting and exciting. And less susceptible to sweatshop/macro farming. Combat missions haven't changed since they've been introduced. I'm sorry, but this is just pure laziness on CCP's part. FAKE EDIT: AND SO IS THE COMPLETE FAILURE TO FIX THIS GOD-AWFUL FORUM SCRIPT.
sue AGPlant Minmatar Rionnag Alba Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2009.07.14 08:29:00 - [3] CCP are already looking at this in the form of sleepers. There is a devblog talking about this (sorry lazy to dig it up) stating that the sleepers and some officer spawns were the 1st introduction of less dumb npcs. Dose make lide interesting to pew pew someone in a wh combat site as you have to watch your target and the npcs like a hawk or the sleepers will gank you too lol EX Nano *** since 2006
Jagga Spikes Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.07.14 09:09:00 - [4] /support pve is too easy. that's why people upgrade their ships with better/expensive stuff. better stuff = less chance of losing it. it's a closed circle. missions need to be more dynamic. i can understand this will cause server load problem, but that will make pve more interesting and prepare people for pvp. P.S.: FIX login :)
Jettax Gallente The Professional's Club Fatal Ascension	Posted - 2009.07.14 11:30:00 - [5] /support Very true and well said. Afterall a truly challenging NPC entity would have all the same capabilities as a 'PC', access to all the same kit, and the ability to use it the same way, the ability to start a corporation and decide a career, and pursue it, change it, and so on etc, just like a real human's patterns. I know that sounds a bit overwhelming from a programming/development perspective, but c'mon CCP has a lot of talented people and resources available, even a 'Rough Artificial Real Player' is still infinitely better than something that can't even chase you across a couple of systems or drop a bubble or do anything even remotely similar to real pvp... The difference between pve and pvp is really like the difference between two completely different games. There's a reason we call NPCs rats, it's because that is what they are like. They just sit in one place with no ambition and no originality. When they are attacked they cannot warp out. So because they cannot flight they opt for fight. So they fight and they die, and that is all they do. Of course once in a while they catch someone ill-prepared or foolish and score a kill. But they are just rats.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.07.14 11:33:00 - [6] At the very least, NPCs should have something approaching a realistic fit, and they should STOP the EW and range cheating. An NPC who's tank is failing should try to escape, incentivising missioners to fit tackle.
Discrodia Gallente Blood Red Dawn	Posted - 2009.07.14 11:42:00 - [7] /signed ___________________________________________ Discrodia > Annoying idiots in 0.0 is my business. Business keeps picking up. Discrodia > I also like misquoting stuff :D
Sidrat Flush Caldari Life is Experience New Eden Hardware Emporium	Posted - 2009.07.14 12:24:00 - [8] Interesting topic as usual, but I would rather touch on what makes a person not enjoy PvP combat in the first place. I believe it's because Eve allows you a choice and progression at your own rate. So if you're not introduced to pvp early on you'll enjoy the missions, the income, the building stuff, possibly mining, even more likely trading. You could train all the skills you like but if you don't find out you could be using different modules for a better effect you'll stick with what you know and what (for lower agent missions) works. Only when you go to level 4 missions will a person need to learn how to fit their ship (damage/rate of fire mods or shield recharge or cap recharge, or in a few cases some of them combined) to keep the tank on their ship stable. If that player has had to go to low sec and has been ganked at a gate or in a belt, and thus the first experience in pvp has been in a non-pvp fitted ship against multiple oponents (or one uber pilot with extreme targetting abilities) and would either make that person go totally anti-pvp OR give them the first buzz of pvp and they'll start to learn that but at the detriment (not that I complain) of their non-combat pvp activities. That is I believe a general outcome for a player New to Eve, there's people long established people who's had the taste of pvp and can't stand it. It's not a bad thing it just is. Like ice mining. The term carebear however is over-used to mean industrial character when in reality it could be a term used to a pvp pilot who hesitates or doesn't fit the ship for purpose. As it is, I believe combat pvp requires a certain state of mind. Sure make the rats in all the missions more dynamic so that you have to fit a web/scram/painter and even an eccm module too, but it won't change the attitude to combat pvp that individuals have, unless Isk can be made more certainly than mission running, but I think if that happens it's gone too far in the wrong direction. EXP-L Eve Industrial Organiser
Rho Legate	Posted - 2009.07.14 12:39:00 - [9] Originally by: Malcanis At the very least, NPCs should have something approaching a realistic fit, and they should STOP the EW and range cheating. An NPC who's tank is failing should try to escape, incentivising missioners to fit tackle. Exactly :) and like I said pvp isn't for everyone but it would be nice to stop all this pve loadout pvp loadout seperation.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.07.14 13:00:00 - [10] Originally by: Sidrat Flush Interesting topic as usual, but I would rather touch on what makes a person not enjoy PvP combat in the first place... Sidrat, the point I was making was that the missioner/ratter is unecessarily handicapped by the highly unrealistic structure of combat missions. For one thing, they might not be so combat averse if they had something like a fighting fit, and for another, sometimes PvP happens to people who dont want it - why should they not have a fair chance?

Sanzorz Amarr Mark Of Chaos	Posted - 2009.07.14 13:05:00 - [11] Edited by: Sanzorz on 14/07/2009 13:06:15 Originally by: Malcanis At the very least, NPCs should have something approaching a realistic fit, and they should STOP the EW and range cheating. An NPC who's tank is failing should try to escape, incentivising missioners to fit tackle. The first part I can agree upon, but the 2nd is just damn flawed. If you want tackle gear in a pve scenario to prevent rats from fleeing, then you need a distruptor with range++++++! It's fairly hard to just change the current pve part. Sleepers are one thing, but you bite several people for messing with this AI. First off you're totally cut off from drones, as Sleepers tend to pop these. That means you have to do a direct WEIRD fitting to deal with fast scramblers, as you can't use your drones. In most areas you're just gonna gimp yourself to utter oblivion and prolly have to team up to make it just a bit more efficient. A bad move for different timeline people or just solo people. There's not alot of stuff you can change, unless it's something way past the current that just results in a complete makeover. Rats about to go down warping away means several triggers. Instead you could perhaps add a shorto or medium duration "PANIC" button for rats in missions hitting hull hp, making them very damage resistant for a while. That will force the player to switch between targets.
TraininVain	Posted - 2009.07.14 13:13:00 - [12] Yeah, this is a pretty good point. On the other hand, would you want to have to be awake for missions?
Danton Marcellus Nebula Rasa Holdings	Posted - 2009.07.14 14:54:00 - [13] I always rat PvP fit, it's the only way to go. Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav! Also Known As
Orion GUardian Caldari	Posted - 2009.07.14 15:45:00 - [14] Most important things to make PvE more like PvP are: [in my opinion] NPCs being affected by all Ewar -> Tank failing due to Neuts, TDs, SDs and ECM working as intended etc and at some point even stronger than on PC Ships....capsuleers <-> other people NPCs stopping to cheat on Range+Ewar+whatever [wtf at 150km Range Torps] NPCs being decreased in numbers NPCs being increased in intelligence [dumb to kill a dozen NPC battleships with a Battlecruiser] and overall performance. An NPC BS shouldn't be as good as a PC one of course. After all we are Capsuleers and they arent. But 4 BSes should be a major problem. Of course at the same time numbers should be toned down, so that you still have a realistic chance at higher fun [imho]. of course that would lead to needed higher bounties to represent that change etc. NPCs trying to avoid being killed. If the tank is failing...not warping out but retreating to regenerate cap/shields. For that they need to observe the likely range of the PC. With that come tactics like....not shooting till they are at 70% optimal so you can still hit fleeing enemies if they think they are safe at 110% of that or something. specially true for Named NPCs, weren't soem of those capsuleers, too? Should they be as difficult as a PC in that ship after all?
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.07.14 15:57:00 - [15] Originally by: Malcanis An NPC who's tank is failing should try to escape, incentivising missioners to fit tackle. Caldari Stealth Nerf Spotted ? _______ Local is fine, period.
Irida Mershkov Gallente War is Bliss	Posted - 2009.07.14 16:04:00 - [16] Originally by: Sky Marshal Originally by: Malcanis An NPC who's tank is failing should try to escape, incentivising missioners to fit tackle. Caldari Stealth Nerf Spotted ? Only if you're stupid.
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.07.14 16:24:00 - [17] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 14/07/2009 16:25:53 Well, I must be stupid. I am not a Gallente who tank Armor after all. If I remove two modules on my Marauder/Raven/Drake to be a little more "PVP-Like" (Stasis + Speed), my tank capacity is reduced by 50%, and it is a racial one, not a stupid omni tank. _______ Local is fine, period.
Irida Mershkov Gallente War is Bliss	Posted - 2009.07.14 16:27:00 - [18] Find a new fitting then I guess. Besides, it nerfs my tank by a hell of a lot to fit a warp disruptor, as I have to remove that extra cap recharger, which then stops be from running both of my reps. Maybe level 4s will then be ran by groups, as they were meant to.
Stil Harkonnen	Posted - 2009.07.14 16:32:00 - [19] too lazy to read the whole thread but if you make npc's harder, i'd like to see an increase in payment. I pvp all the time but I am forced to run missions because it is my only way to earn isk. nerfing missions in turn nerfs my pvp...:( Also if you make npc's harder, make them drop better crap. nobody uses un-named t1 gear in pvp...let those battleships drop t2 gear like any normal pvp bs.
Kewso	Posted - 2009.07.14 16:43:00 - [20] My opinion, that I believe, that seperates pvp/pve, and those that have a hard time or do not care to take part in pvp combat is this. hypothetical situation of course. ok some carebear has gathered the isk and bought his pricey +4 or eventually +5 implants. Now lets see he's in a corp and they want to pvp, so the carebear now thinks to themself, I'd like to pvp but I need to jumpclone. Well if I jumpclone I cant jump back into my +4/+5 implants for 24 hours and we may only do 1 or 2 runs until we all die and the squad breaks up. So he thinks or I can just ignore the pvp and in the time they made 1 or 2 runs got blown up and break up I could have made 10+ mil isk. So the carebear decides it's not worth jumpcloning for a simple 20-30 min romp into pvp. Or in the same token against wardec, most bounce to npc corp or whatnot do to same reason, they could jump clone and fight but losing out on training time being what I mostly hear from carebears so they just drop to npc corp. In my opinion you want to see more carebears in combat pvp? lower the jump clone timer. Cause as it is now, how long does typical pvp groups stick it out, I've seen 1 or 2 runs for 20-30 mins up to maybe 2 or 3 hours. If the guy goes to eat dinner and comes back the group has disbanded and now he's stuck in his jumpclone which is now wasted, so most times instead of "wasting" time they will ignore pvp combat and stick with the learning clone. I know from several of my carebear friends that is the biggest reason they don't do combat pvp. It's too much of a hassle they spent too much on implants, and they are following the rules the pvp people tell them so instead of risk the implants they stay in highsec, or drop to npc corps during wartime since the faster the skill training goes = more money earned over long run with new skills and abilities to do more. lower jumpclone timers would help. or even go really fanatical and make a super expensive clone that saves your implants then you will see a TON more people in pvp combat.

Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.07.14 16:51:00 - [21] Originally by: Sky Marshal Edited by: Sky Marshal on 14/07/2009 16:25:53 Well, I must be stupid. I am not a Gallente who tank Armor after all. If I remove two modules on my Marauder/Raven/Drake to be a little more "PVP-Like" (Stasis + Speed), my tank capacity is reduced by 50%, and it is a racial one, not a stupid omni tank. sigh the idea is to get away from having massive waves of dumb NPCs so that missions become more than my dps & tank vs NPC dps & tank.
Clair Bear Perkone	Posted - 2009.07.14 17:07:00 - [22] It's not the fits that are the problem -- although making ewar work on NPCs and missions that aren't optimized for a 400 DPS permatank tank + as much gank as possible would be a giant leap forward. PvP is inherently a blobby activity. PvE is inherently a solo activity. PvE as it exists now does not scale with the number of people you bring with you because a large amount of time you spend in missions is travel time, not killing time. PvP, on the other hand, increases both rewards (killmails) and reduces risk (likelyhood you are primaried) as your gang grows. In addition there are many metagaming tricks which work for PvP but not for PvE. Just resign yourself to the fact that PvE is simply mining rats with guns. You can play for ISK, or you can play for killmails. The two are designed to be completely different activities. Do one then the other, not both at once. And in summary, bigger blobs are the answer. Now what was the question?
Lysianna Celestial Janissaries Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.14 17:09:00 - [23] Pvp is about specialists in their own field. ItÆs a completely different ball game and people should do well to learn that from their corp veterans. (if available) In PVE, size matters due to the fact that indeed, the ships that you fight are basicaly just shooting at you, without any brains behind it. In my opinion, missions should has less ships to kill but better formation. A triage of RR BS escorted by interceptors and logistical ships soon followed by a hot drop of supports. PVP is not really based on tankingà itÆs based on other factors such as Ewars, DPS, speed, agility, angular velodicty, range mastery, TEAMWORK!!!! and such. For example, one of my fleet sniper BS is setup to lock targets at more then 250KM and itÆs optimal fireing range is 240KM. Obviously, my armor is practically non-existent. Now unfortunately, even if IÆm BS V and maxed in every possible skills for that ship, I used it maybe 3 times this yearà ItÆs a situational ship. This setup wouldnÆt be able to survive a L4 setup, specially since I have no reppers on it. However, IÆm never going to fly this ship unless IÆm with a sniper fleet of at least 10+ sniper BS. Actually none of my PVP ships could survive a level 4 mission. Then again, all my setups can survive small to large scale PVP operations. The major issue I see with PVE is that missions can be done with omni tanks and DPS. Ewars are practically worthless there and 99.9% of these missions can be done solo. That in my opinion is the major flaw of PVE. L4 missions should encourage grouping and they should even reward a larger group. The difficulty should also significally raise as you bring in more ships. Specializing into something should feel rewarding in PVE. ________________________________________________ Lysianna Hazumason Celestial Janissaries Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Jastra Gallente Black Thorne Corporation Black Thorne Alliance	Posted - 2009.07.14 17:34:00 - [24] most constructive thread on pve versus pvp in an age. I'd like more variety in NPCs thats for sure, it's always slighty bugged me shooting NPC domis that dont have drones out. and fix the forums :(
Kashre Minmatar Battlegroup Obsidian	Posted - 2009.07.14 18:05:00 - [25] I have this dream where you go to an agent, and instead of "hey there's 18 pirate battleships in this very system go kill them all with your battlecruiser", the agent says, "A madman in a Megathron named Dark Charity just murdered a convoy coming in to dock at one of our stations in X constellation, go take care of him." Then you go running around the constellation looking for him. You see him in local (only you can see him in local), narrow down his location with the directional scanner, warp into a planet where he is. Then you have to warp scram him or he'll warp away before you kill him. Takes an hour if you're going solo and not lucky, maybe 30 minutes if you find him quickly. Then you go back to your agent and get ~20 mil in rewards. And if you don't have a setup that can deal with a real Megathron fit with all medium level meta gear, you die. THAT is what running missions should be like. +++ "Etiquette is for the Dojo. In war there is only victory or death." - Eiji Yoshikawa
Irida Mershkov Gallente War is Bliss	Posted - 2009.07.14 18:07:00 - [26] Originally by: Jastra most constructive thread on pve versus pvp in an age. I'd like more variety in NPCs thats for sure, it's always slighty bugged me shooting NPC domis that dont have drones out. and fix the forums :( Give it about two pages, it'll devolve into trolling and ***gotry.
Pesky LaRue Minmatar	Posted - 2009.07.14 18:08:00 - [27] Originally by: Stil Harkonnen too lazy to read the whole thread but if you make npc's harder, i'd like to see an increase in payment. I pvp all the time but I am forced to run missions because it is my only way to earn isk. nerfing missions in turn nerfs my pvp...:( I think a lot of us are in a similar position. Originally by: Stil Harkonnen Also if you make npc's harder, make them drop better crap. nobody uses un-named t1 gear in pvp...let those battleships drop t2 gear like any normal pvp bs. horribly idea! sorry, but T1 gear is just fine, there's already too much of it being dropped left and right... \|+ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ +\|
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.07.14 18:18:00 - [28] Being able to do missions in PvP fits would be great. I'm fed up with taking my 'L4 raven' out of the hangar, and _knowing_ that if anyone jumps me I'm hosed. Would much rather see fewer/harder hitting NPCs with 'PvP like' tanking and damage characteristics, and will warp off when it's losing. But that really would require a wholesale mission redesign. I'd like to see it, but I can't see it happening.
Kyra Felann Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies	Posted - 2009.07.14 18:20:00 - [29] I think all NPC AI should be dramatically boosted and that PvE combat should be more like PvP combat. Ship fittings for the two should be similar if not basically the same. It's silly having two completely different types of fittings for PvE versus PvP. As it is now, most NPCs are little more than harvestable resources that are only slightly more dangerous than asteroids. Sleeper combat, on the other hand, is the most fun I've had in PvE combat in this game. I also agree that anything that works against players should work against NPCs--e-war of all kinds, cap neutralizers, energy vamps, etc. In short, make PvE combat more like PvP combat.
Terrus Valkin Gallente ArmoredCore Armed Forces	Posted - 2009.07.14 18:21:00 - [30] Originally by: Kashre I have this dream where you go to an agent, and instead of "hey there's 18 pirate battleships in this very system go kill them all with your battlecruiser", the agent says, "A madman in a Megathron named Dark Charity just murdered a convoy coming in to dock at one of our stations in X constellation, go take care of him." Then you go running around the constellation looking for him. You see him in local (only you can see him in local), narrow down his location with the directional scanner, warp into a planet where he is. Then you have to warp scram him or he'll warp away before you kill him. Takes an hour if you're going solo and not lucky, maybe 30 minutes if you find him quickly. Then you go back to your agent and get ~20 mil in rewards. And if you don't have a setup that can deal with a real Megathron fit with all medium level meta gear, you die. THAT is what running missions should be like. This. -CEO of AC-AF-



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