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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
846
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 17:24:00 -
[31] - Quote
Vyl Vit wrote:shameless bump
What do psychologists say about developers going their way despite a large majority of testers saying their direction is wrong?
I also love change, but only if it's polished and changes for the better. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Malice Redeemer
Redeemer Group Joint Venture Conglomerate
86
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 17:28:00 -
[32] - Quote
Vyl Vit wrote:Psychologists identify four major reactions to significant changes in people's accustomed environment or routine activities:
Disengagement - Withdrawal, loss of initiative or interest, fear while hoping for the best, being physically present but mentally absent, loss of drive and commitment, marginal performance.
Dis-identification - Identity is threatened by change, loss of sense of mastery, dwelling on the "old" way of doing things, sadness and worry.
Disenchantment - negativity or anger, seeking support by forming coalitions, engaging in sabotage or backstabbing.
Disorientation - feeling lost and unsure, wasting energy figuring out "what" to do instead of "how" to do things, become detail-oriented, leave tasks until all "questions" are answered, feeling of losing touch with priorities, analyzing the change "to death".
(Thanks University of Pittsburgh Psych Department)
"Life is change. How it differs from the rocks." - Grace Slick -
We go through this every time. The devs try to refine their product that's some eight or nine years old now, incrementally to prevent crippling shock ravaging the masses. We get the same percentage of people overall reacting in one of the four above mentioned fashions every time. If you did a statisical check, you'd find with each change the same number of people post the same type of reaction...every time.
In the dreaded and unmentioned RL, it's likely change is met the same way by the same people in the same numbers. It's only natural. Move one stick of furniture and my border collie is suspicious for a week. He'll calm down, but months after he'll still sniff it as he walks by as if to say "this still isn't RIGHT."
What we should ask ourselves is are we reacting to what and how it was changed, or to the change itself? Most of us from many years of experience know you're unfamiliar with a key punching, 'puter procedure till you do it a few times, and before you know it, it's second nature. Sure as my Hurricane is under-insured, the same will happen with THIS change, as it has with all the OTHER changes.
"If it ain't broke don't fix it." - Every Redneck I've Ever Worked With -
It's true, sometimes people mess with things just to be messing with them (as we say in Alabama). Change for the sake of change is resisted and it's arguable - rightly so. The question then becomes, was the change necessary, or an improvement? I daresay so far, until we've all made the new keystrokes second nature, we can't really say. So, much criticism is a bit premature, and is likely a reaction to the change itself.
Over time we may find a change, or two, just weren't for the best. I'm sure the devs aren't so hard-headed as to ignore this. However, some people are enamored of their own work, and themselves resist change - especially if it involves reversing a change they thought was so brilliant to begin with. Such vanity isn't very helpful, but we can't know if this is presently the case until events unfold. This, too, will take time.
In the meanwhile, I just love watching us being ourselves. Don't you? The one sure change we can all agree on is - Be sure to change your underwear. You never know WHEN you might be hit by a bus.
Guy, we tested this crap on the test server, and its not even all about the changes, duh. Its the attitude and direction of the development team, game of drones, that I'm upset about.
Thanks for the cool post about what you think is happening though.
I mean you hit the nail on the head for sure about the "enamored of their own work part", but do remember + 1 month, this is not the first feedback they have had on these issues. |
Malice Redeemer
Redeemer Group Joint Venture Conglomerate
87
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 17:39:00 -
[33] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Vyl Vit wrote:The question then becomes, was the change necessary, or an improvement? I daresay so far, until we've all made the new keystrokes second nature, we can't really say. Nah. The question becomes: do the additions add more value than the things that were unquestionably lost, and does GÇ£improvementGÇ¥ really have room for such a thing as lost functionality? The change was necessary; the loss of functionality and efficiency was not. It could have been an improvement, but was fumbled. At best, it might reach a level of GÇ£just as good, but in a completely different wayGÇ¥, which doesn't really qualify.
These are the EXACT words I used during the neocom changes, what a waste of potential they are are only now starting to scratch. Here is too hoping that some kind of super dev wooshs in and fixes both unfinished products |
Disdaine
290
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 17:47:00 -
[34] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Remember when CQ was going to kill EVE, ruined immersion, caused cancer and threw puppies into bonfires?
What happened? They listened and gave us the ship hangar back and I'll wager a majority of players haven't set foot in CQ again. |
Barbelo Valentinian
The Scope Gallente Federation
198
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 18:22:00 -
[35] - Quote
Vyl Vit wrote:Psychologists identify four major reactions to significant changes in people's accustomed environment or routine activities:
Thanks for the irrelevant psychology lesson, but the argument isn't about change per se, it's about change that makes things functionally less good than they were before for a lot of players. |
Vyl Vit
Cambio Enterprises
508
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 18:42:00 -
[36] - Quote
Barbelo Valentinian wrote:Vyl Vit wrote:Psychologists identify four major reactions to significant changes in people's accustomed environment or routine activities:
Thanks for the irrelevant psychology lesson, but the argument isn't about change per se, it's about change that makes things functionally less good than they were before for a lot of players. The psych is always relevant. You can pretend that it isn't, but then that's psych, too. Words like "value" and "good" are terms of judgement. Opinions are like a$$holes, everybody's got one. You'll have a hard time proving to me the changes are negative in terms of functionality, rather than just different. And, of course, you can have an abrasive attitude when you do. That's just more psych. Anyone with any sense has already left town. |
TheBreadMuncher
Boxxed Up Industries EPIC Alliance
73
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 19:02:00 -
[37] - Quote
Why is it that I can relate to everyone one of those things... I only ever emerge from the shadows when my main is banned. |
Vyl Vit
Cambio Enterprises
508
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 19:12:00 -
[38] - Quote
TheBreadMuncher wrote:Why is it that I can relate to everyone one of those things... Cause you a good man. Anyone with any sense has already left town. |
Jessie-A Tassik
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
200
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 19:16:00 -
[39] - Quote
Vyl Vit wrote:Psychologists identify four major reactions to significant changes in people's accustomed environment or routine activities:
Disengagement - Withdrawal, loss of initiative or interest, fear while hoping for the best, being physically present but mentally absent, loss of drive and commitment, marginal performance.
Dis-identification - Identity is threatened by change, loss of sense of mastery, dwelling on the "old" way of doing things, sadness and worry.
Disenchantment - negativity or anger, seeking support by forming coalitions, engaging in sabotage or backstabbing.
Disorientation - feeling lost and unsure, wasting energy figuring out "what" to do instead of "how" to do things, become detail-oriented, leave tasks until all "questions" are answered, feeling of losing touch with priorities, analyzing the change "to death".
(Thanks University of Pittsburgh Psych Department)
"Life is change. How it differs from the rocks." - Grace Slick -
We go through this every time. The devs try to refine their product that's some eight or nine years old now, incrementally to prevent crippling shock ravaging the masses. We get the same percentage of people overall reacting in one of the four above mentioned fashions every time. If you did a statisical check, you'd find with each change the same number of people post the same type of reaction...every time.
In the dreaded and unmentioned RL, it's likely change is met the same way by the same people in the same numbers. It's only natural. Move one stick of furniture and my border collie is suspicious for a week. He'll calm down, but months after he'll still sniff it as he walks by as if to say "this still isn't RIGHT."
What we should ask ourselves is are we reacting to what and how it was changed, or to the change itself? Most of us from many years of experience know you're unfamiliar with a key punching, 'puter procedure till you do it a few times, and before you know it, it's second nature. Sure as my Hurricane is under-insured, the same will happen with THIS change, as it has with all the OTHER changes.
"If it ain't broke don't fix it." - Every Redneck I've Ever Worked With -
It's true, sometimes people mess with things just to be messing with them (as we say in Alabama). Change for the sake of change is resisted and it's arguable - rightly so. The question then becomes, was the change necessary, or an improvement? I daresay so far, until we've all made the new keystrokes second nature, we can't really say. So, much criticism is a bit premature, and is likely a reaction to the change itself.
Over time we may find a change, or two, just weren't for the best. I'm sure the devs aren't so hard-headed as to ignore this. However, some people are enamored of their own work, and themselves resist change - especially if it involves reversing a change they thought was so brilliant to begin with. Such vanity isn't very helpful, but we can't know if this is presently the case until events unfold. This, too, will take time.
In the meanwhile, I just love watching us being ourselves. Don't you? The one sure change we can all agree on is - Be sure to change your underwear. You never know WHEN you might be hit by a bus.
Look Soudwaffe needed to terminate people who didn't agree with him.
In a surprising turn of events, these are the same people who know how to make things work.
This is the result. Ha ha.
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Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
61
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 19:17:00 -
[40] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Vyl Vit wrote:The question then becomes, was the change necessary, or an improvement? I daresay so far, until we've all made the new keystrokes second nature, we can't really say. Nah. The question becomes: do the additions add more value than the things that were unquestionably lost, and does GÇ£improvementGÇ¥ really have room for such a thing as lost functionality? The change was necessary; the loss of functionality and efficiency was not. It could have been an improvement, but was fumbled. At best, it might reach a level of GÇ£just as good, but in a completely different wayGÇ¥, which doesn't really qualify.
Today patch fixed one of the most annoying issues: windows closing/resizing changing position etc, witch all the sudden makes it a little better.
However it's always clicky fest dealing with multiple containers, fitted and non fitted ships yadayada |
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Hung TuLo
Universal Fleet Operations
57
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 19:18:00 -
[41] - Quote
B3AST MODE B3AST wrote:EVE Online was a fun game, 9 years was a good run CCP...but I'm out.
Can I Has you stufff???????? "In space all warriors are cold warriors" ----á General Chang-á Star Trek VI |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
61
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 19:22:00 -
[42] - Quote
Vyl Vit wrote:Barbelo Valentinian wrote:Vyl Vit wrote:Psychologists identify four major reactions to significant changes in people's accustomed environment or routine activities:
Thanks for the irrelevant psychology lesson, but the argument isn't about change per se, it's about change that makes things functionally less good than they were before for a lot of players. The psych is always relevant. You can pretend that it isn't, but then that's psych, too. Words like "value" and "good" are terms of judgement. Opinions are like a$$holes, everybody's got one. You'll have a hard time proving to me the changes are negative in terms of functionality, rather than just different. And, of course, you can have an abrasive attitude when you do. That's just more psych.
So, more clicks for you is an improvement...
Not being able to identify or after some headache, pos module you want to put "zdat ammo" an not another is an improvement?
Yep I guess psy is needed around here and you should start by doing some work on yourself |
Shameless Avenger
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 19:25:00 -
[43] - Quote
After 20 years of working IT, I feel emotionally moved with this thread. I'll now check prices on a wingsuit and find a good cliff... oh wait, I'm in Florida... no mountains... bah, I'm doomed. |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
427
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 19:30:00 -
[44] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Remember when the new font was going to kill EVE, ruined immersion, caused cancer and threw puppies into bonfires? I miss those puppies...
Wormholes: The *NEW* end game of Eve - Online: No Local. No Lag. No Blues (No Intell Channesl). No Blobs.
NEW FEATURE: NO INCARNA! |
FeralShadow
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
133
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 19:52:00 -
[45] - Quote
Quote: Sure as my Hurricane is under-insured, the same will happen with THIS change, as it has with all the OTHER changes.
Awesome. Also OP you bring some good points. And for everyone else: http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3pewgs/
Shift click to open new window. How the Eve Sandbox Works:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=482176#post482176 "I believe in karma. That's why whenever I do something sh**ty to others, they somehow deserved it." |
Korsiri
Mousetrap Building Inc.
38
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 19:57:00 -
[46] - Quote
change is life; life is change
one of the most common characteristics of centarians is looking forward to change, embracing it, not fighting it
don't stress it if it's not important, save up all your stress for the big changes that actually affect you adversely -- that's my motto
also, just wanted to say,
Quote:The one sure change we can all agree on is - Be sure to change your underwear. You never know WHEN you might be hit by a bus.
who the hell wears underwear |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
356
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 19:59:00 -
[47] - Quote
I LOVE CHANGE.
even more opportunities for fun and profit! |
Barbelo Valentinian
The Scope Gallente Federation
203
|
Posted - 2012.05.23 20:32:00 -
[48] - Quote
Vyl Vit wrote:Words like "value" and "good" are terms of judgement.
Number of mouseclicks to do a given job is objective. There is an objective loss in utility for many people - just as there was an objective loss in utility in last year's attempted move from Hangar view to CQ.
In this instance (and in some others) It's not a generic fear of change qua change. Yes, that often happens in MMOs, and it happens and has happened in EVE, but sometimes forum uproars can't just be automatically pegged as that. This (like last year's Incarna fiasco) is one of those occasions.
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Vyl Vit
Cambio Enterprises
514
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 03:37:00 -
[49] - Quote
Barbelo Valentinian wrote:Vyl Vit wrote:Words like "value" and "good" are terms of judgement. Number of mouseclicks to do a given job is objective. There is an objective loss in utility for many people - just as there was an objective loss in utility in last year's attempted move from Hangar view to CQ. In this instance (and in some others) It's not a generic fear of change qua change. Yes, that often happens in MMOs, and it happens and has happened in EVE, but sometimes forum uproars can't just be automatically pegged as that. This (like last year's Incarna fiasco) is one of those occasions. And I guess that's the point. Winnow through the visceral reaction and find the actual problems. I agree. More mouseclicks - beddy bad. Anyone with any sense has already left town. |
Pres Crendraven
38
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 04:26:00 -
[50] - Quote
Study doesn't recognize positive change. Like if I am released from a concentration camp style prison population atmosphere, am I going to feel bad? Meta34me
Corp and Alliance details hidden to protect the innocent. |
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Visionthing
Kilo Company
10
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 05:15:00 -
[51] - Quote
It not about change, its all about the frustration of having a dev team that don't listen.
-1 for a well thought out post that completely misses the point, in exactly the same kind of way the devs miss the point. |
Americe Zane
The Lucky Punx
9
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 05:23:00 -
[52] - Quote
Change is always hard to judge after such a short time. Give it 3-6 months, then we will see if the new window was a change for the better. |
Kile Kitmoore
26
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 05:33:00 -
[53] - Quote
Change? Like when a particular arrogant game company decides to remove a function, Station Hanger, and replace it with a closet with little function? Yep, that's good change and we all adapted to it well.....or did we? |
Vyl Vit
Cambio Enterprises
516
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 07:45:00 -
[54] - Quote
Shameless Avenger wrote:After 20 years of working IT, I feel emotionally moved with this thread. I'll now check prices on a wingsuit and find a good cliff... oh wait, I'm in Florida... no mountains... bah, I'm doomed. Fancy that. I'm in Florida, too! I can give you the locations of some decent overpasses. Pick drive time and the altitude won't matter. Anyone with any sense has already left town. |
Singoth
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
29
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Posted - 2012.05.24 07:54:00 -
[55] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Remember when the new font was going to kill EVE, ruined immersion, caused cancer and threw puppies into bonfires? THIS! Less yappin', more zappin'! |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
141
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 08:26:00 -
[56] - Quote
Vyl Vit wrote: The devs try to refine their product that's some eight or nine years old now, incrementally to prevent crippling shock ravaging the masses. Maybe that's the wrong approach?
I for my part know that there are a lot of possible features that I would accept in a new MMO without batting an eyebrow but that I would rage hard about if they were implemented in EVE.
Why? because over the years I have developed a very narrowly defined notion of what EVE is supposed to be like and supposed to be about and any incremental change is compared against that notion.
A new game (or an old game that I only just started playing) on the other hand is a clean slate and I just tend to take things as they are and give them a try.
I hate the notion of MTs in EVE but I spent more than I want to admit on MTs in LoL. I hate the idea of "gold ammo" in EVE, yet i had a lot of fun in WoT. I disagree with the introduction of more PvE content in EVE, yet I spent countless hours playing Diablo during the last week. I think that PvP must have consequences in EVE (and would rage hard about the introduction of arenas, ...) but I have a running WoW subscription just for PvP.
Incremental updates make a lot of sense from a technical point of view - but at some point it will be easier to reset 10+ years of player expectations by launching an "EVE 2" than to continue facing a storm of outrage over every change. |
InternetSpaceship
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3
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Posted - 2012.05.24 09:00:00 -
[57] - Quote
My life is so hollow and meaningless that an Inventory UI change in an internet spaceship game has turned it upside down and left me struggling to deal with the crippling emotional damage and broken trust relationship with an Icelandic Corporation. |
March rabbit
Trojan Trolls Red Alliance
178
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 09:25:00 -
[58] - Quote
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:Vyl Vit, I have to be honest.
If I am hit by a bus, the state of my underwear will be the least of my worries. u r so selfish! |
Barbelo Valentinian
The Scope Gallente Federation
213
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 14:47:00 -
[59] - Quote
Vyl Vit wrote:Barbelo Valentinian wrote:Vyl Vit wrote:Words like "value" and "good" are terms of judgement. Number of mouseclicks to do a given job is objective. There is an objective loss in utility for many people - just as there was an objective loss in utility in last year's attempted move from Hangar view to CQ. In this instance (and in some others) It's not a generic fear of change qua change. Yes, that often happens in MMOs, and it happens and has happened in EVE, but sometimes forum uproars can't just be automatically pegged as that. This (like last year's Incarna fiasco) is one of those occasions. And I guess that's the point. Winnow through the visceral reaction and find the actual problems. I agree. More mouseclicks - beddy bad.
Yes, in a game where people already do a lot of mouseclicking, increasing the mouseclicking load is bad design and is not the type of change that's an improvement.
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Lady Zarrina
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
28
|
Posted - 2012.05.24 15:28:00 -
[60] - Quote
I support the new inventory. Could it be better, sure.
I was thinking most of this functionality would have been more suited to the "asset" window, and I have seen others post similar thoughts.
I think some people just want visual confirmation their stuff is infact in the new place. Some people need the cargo window open and some people will drag items to the cargo icon. Allocate resources to FiS |
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